No one should attempt strenuous exercise without wearing a heart rate monitor and I think exercise should be fun too.

I'm probably the only person here who thinks running is fun.

Yeah...you are a sick, twisted freak...but we love you anyway

I adore running! You aren't alone. Janine (from up the thread) does it, too.

The only thing that troubles me about the idea of not encouraging exercise is that without that encouragement, many people that could benefit from it (and love it) may never try it. I got into running because I thought I *should* exercise. Frankly, I hated exercise so much, I figured I'd rather jog for 30 minutes, get it over with than have to walk briskly for an hour, so I tried running. Now my biggest problem with exercise is not overdoing it and getting an injury so that I can't do it for a few months. If people don't try things, they won't know they can enjoy them.

I remember that story that Taubes tells of the jogger with his extra 30 pounds.

Can I join the fight?

Exercise, as I've discovered on my own, is counter productive for the purpose of fat loss. During the month of training, I lost 2 lbs. During the month of staying in bed, I lost 7 lbs. This month of training, I already gained a couple of pounds in the first week yet it can't be due to carbs or anything like that.

Should I avoid telling people about my experience? Maybe but I think my experience can help others who are having a problem stalling out and can't figure out what the cause is. Am I really telling people to avoid exercise? No, I'm not. I'm telling people to stay in bed if their goal is fat loss and if they want to lose fat the fastest way possible. What they do with this advice is their business. I trust people to think for themselves and to make the best choice for themselves.

I train for strength. I see no reason to advise to not train for strength when I'm doing it. That would be hypocritical of me, wouldn't it. And so I do say that exercise can make somebody stronger or give them stamina but that's about it. Again, what others do with the advice is their business and I trust people to do what they think is best for themselves.

I'm ambivalent. "Stay in bed" seems extreme to me, I guess.

"Stay in bed" is exactly what used to be prescribed for fat loss. "Go to the gym" was considered extreme. Times change.

If we are being particular and specific, lets compare apples to apples. WEIGHT loss and FAT loss are different. Laying in bed for a month is going to strip you of muscle, not fat, but you will lose weight. Exercise is going to make you GAIN muscle, hence a weight INCREASE.

Lets just be sure we are all talking about the same thing.

That is not true. I didn't lose strength during that month of staying in bed. If strength is any indication of lean tissue retention then I didn't lose any. The body wouldn't be so stupid to lose functional tissue. Especially once we consider how expensive it is to build that tissue in the first place. If there is a loss of tissue, it's due to something other than activity level. A diet high in carb will lead to a loss of lean tissue. I ate an all meat high fat diet so that couldn't have caused any loss of lean tissue.

Further, lean tissue is not gained so easily. It takes time, years even. Taking my experience as an example. I could not have gained 5 lbs of muscles during the month of training. At best, I would have gained about .5 lbs per week for a total of 2 lbs for the month. At best. This means in optimal conditions. Conditions were not optimal. So muscle gain during that period was less than that. Something else is going on.

Weight loss and fat loss are indeed different but muscle gain and loss is not the answer here.

I think running on sand is really dangerous, too. I started out deep water running in the water, which most anyone could do and is just as good as running on land (except maybe for bone density). They have extenders for the floaty belts used to do it (yes, I had to buy it). I did this because I'd tripped and sprained my toe but I ended up enjoying it so much I progressed to running on land, which I love. I am not a fan of water aerobics because of the bouncing around on the concrete bottom. For me, it is harder on the joints than running on asphalt, but that is me. Other people love it.

I completely agree that everybody has a different threshold for exercise, different lung capacity, talents, etc. Interestingly enough my knees took a beating when I lost weight rapidly - it took a couple weeks for them to adjust to my new gait at the lower weight. But I know I happen to be good at running, not fast, but good at pacing, training, breath control, a good gait that uses my muscles instead of my joints to absorb impact. I am an efficient runner. But I hated running and would not even do the one-mile test in high school. There is no on one exercise for everybody.

Janine

I've been to both extremes with exercise - I was a competitive bodybuilder who spent five hours a day at the gym, taught about 12 aerobics classes a week, went for a daily run and played some kind of strenuous sport several times a week (soccer, racquetball, tennis). I've also sat on the couch barely moving for long periods of time after my body broke down from the aforementioned lifestyle.

I've come to the conclusion, that for me, moderation is what works. I do a little bit of this and a little bit of that - a little HIIT (which I worked up to gradually), a little strength training and some sports/weekend warrior stuff (hiking, golf, tennis, bicycling). I certainly find that by maintaining a moderate schedule of exercise that I enjoy - and by listening to my body's signals regarding exercise (If I am low energy or feel crappy on a day I had "scheduled" to exercise, I don't. If I am feeling particularly energetic, I may throw in some extra tennis after my HIIT workout.) - I have found a place where I have really good energy and I feel pretty healthy. If that causes me to lose a few pounds, that's just gravy. If I gain a pound or two from the exercise - I'm pretty sure my body composition is changing, so I can live with it.

I guess I am just going to have to agree to disagree on this topic. I respect your opinion, but I cant follow the logic.

Muscle retention has many factors but Need (your exercise level) testosterone supply (which is increased by intense exercise) and nutrient levels in the body are 3 biggies. If you lay in the bed your testosterone production is going to drop, if you dont exercise with intensity your test levels will drop. Without testosterone, your body cannot support the muscle mass it is attempting to support. The high fat diet is actually really helpful in muscle retention, but I cant see it making up for the difference.

I can lose strength on a week of vacation, so laying in bed for a month would make a tremendous difference for me.

My own personal experience, after doing Fred Hahn's slow burn program for a year plus change, tells me that:

1) Everyone should strength train. IE, lift weights. Find a sensible plan and stick with it. Slow Burn, aka HIT style training, is the most efficient - very heavy weigths, slow reps, low rep counts, one set only. I only do 30 minutes a week and find that that is all I need.

2) Unless you really love it, skip the cardio. You don't need it, and it won't help you lose weight, and it, in fact, can be quite damaging to your body, over time.

Go for long walks, be active, if you like, practice a sport or two if you enjoy that, but forget the repetitve running/stairmastering/ellipitical machining, etc.

My evidence?

I used to do loads of cardio, 60 minutes or more per day, 6x week, and no strenght training. I quit the cardio completely, and my weight stayed exactly the same.

Once in awhile, I'll test myself, by doing a little personal triathlon, or running 5 miles, etc. I also occaisionally go skiing, or surfing. I find I have all the stamina and endurance I need, and some.

Your experience and your interpretation of your experience are two different things. One is fact, the other is hypothesis. Let us discuss strength for a moment.

Strength is neuromuscular in nature. This means there's two major components to it. Muscle size and the central nervous system (CNS). Muscle size is easy to understand. The bigger it is, the stronger it is. The CNS is not so easy to understand. It's easier to look at it from a skill perspective. We train the CNS to control muscles. The better it is at controlling muscles, the more effectively and more efficiently we can use those muscles and thus the stronger we can be. In other words, it's mostly a question of technique and the better the technique, the heavier the weight we can lift.

Like I said, muscles take time to develop and grow bigger. The CNS on the other hand is much easier to train and much quicker to train. It's also easier and quicker to de-train. Muscles, once built, are difficult to get rid of. The point here is that if you do lose strength in such a short period of time, you should not be so quick to conclude that you lost muscle mass when strength is not merely a function of muscle size and when you grow out of practice, as it were. Because that's what happens when we lift weights on a regular basis: We practice. And because that's what happens when we take a long break: We grow out of practice.

I have a saying about practice. With (study and) practice, we develop, improve and maintain skill. I could substitute skill for strength and it would be just as true.

"Once in awhile, I'll test myself, by doing a little personal triathlon, or running 5 miles, etc. I also occaisionally go skiing, or surfing. I find I have all the stamina and endurance I need, and some."

This makes so much sense to me. Unfortunately, the only way to run in an organized group way (which I like) is to do long-distance running (which I also like). I have a fantasy of starting a company that trains and sponsors track competitions for adults, since sprinting seems to make so much more sense for fitness! It would be so much fun!!!

It's hard to remember, but before circa 1972, nobody thought running for fitness made any sense. I've read that John Glenn was considered eccentric for running three miles a day. I have also read that the word "jogging" was invented to sell the act of running to housewives who thought running was too masculine. It's a very recent phenomenon.

Janine