General Question: If I just want to maintain my muscle mass and gaining a great deal of muscle isn't nearly as important to me as fat loss (I know the more muscle you have the more fat you burn blah blah) is it necessary to do some sort of carb load + very intense weight training? I've been doing B4L for a while and like it, and I just started doing low carbs at a ketogenic level this week so I haven't added any carbs yet. This morning I only got through chest/back and some cardio 'cause I was too tired to do an entire UBW. But if I cut back to two muscle groups at a time, do I need the carbs? I feel so much better (fewer cravings, less hunger, etc.) without carbs that I really fear adding them back in in any capacity.


Question for Lisa (and anyone else who as also worked out without adding carbs): I believe you mentioned you did Atkins for quite awhile with success before recently switching to CKD/TKD. What type of workouts did you do, and how was your energy? What type of success did you have, and why did you decide to switch?

THANKS!

Sabrina

I switched over to a TKD with a free day every couple of weeks because I was bonking on workouts. As you mentioned you weren't able to get through a basic BFL upper body workout.
I've found that a 25-50carb preworkout carb infusion is helpful for getting a decent workout completed.
I've been lifting and doing cardio like clockwork since June. I've certainly realized that it's very difficult to gain muscle, and probably impossible to do so to any significant degree while attempting to lose fat on a ketogenic diet of any type. Can't be catabolic and anabolic at the same time, body chemistry just doesn't work like that.

Hi Sabrina,
I started Atkins is April, started BFL in July. I switched to CKD 5 weeks ago because I hadn't lost a lb. in months on Atkins. I did CKD for 4 weeks. When I started it I had a ton of energy but then I started to have low energy. I switched to TKD this week because it sounded like I wouldn't have the highs and lows with energy. It just made more sense to me.

I have added 25 carbs before my WO's and spinning. I just started this so I'll have to find out if this is going to work for me. I'm not sure if I need to add the 25 carbs after my WO. Most of the information you read is geared for men. I use the CKD parameters for my no WO days and adjust fat lower on TKD days. Keeping my calories the same. I'll probably adjust my calories up for my next adjustment. I do BFL and I have gained strength and muscle. I have lowered my BF and my weight has only dropped 3 lbs.

Lisa

Sabrina-

Forgot to mention that all I eat is 30=25carbs sweet tarts 30-60 min before my workout. It's much easier than CKD.

Lisa

Thanks for the input! I've decided to stick with an Atkins Induction type routine with less intense workouts for around two weeks to really get my body used to Ketosis before I add any carbs. You're right about most of the info being aimed at men-- this is why I'm always a little wary of info on any sort of body building forum until a woman says she's had success, or at least one of the guys says it works for his wife/girlfriend!

Keep us updated on how the pre-workout sweet tarts work for ya! I had a dream I was in the grocery store in search of Skittles last night and I don't usually eat those. Maybe it's a sign!

You realize of course Lisa that part of the reason it's so hard for you to take any more fat off is that you are already so lean. Women's bodies especially are kind of resistant to low levels of BF. Good luck though! You are very inspirational!

Sabrina

Sabrina-

Sounds like a good idea to get your body used to ketosis. Although, you might want to throw them in one day. You might be pleasantly suprised with your WO results. I'm not sure it's good for your body to be doing induction and much of any exercise. I'm doing 20 carbs a day on SKD days it's 64% fat/ 30% protein/6% carbs. On TKD days I switch to 58% fat/30% protein/12% carbs with 45 carbs. It's not that big of a difference in what I'm eating. You might be pleasantly suprised with the results you get.
About the getting the BF down further.

For me it's just the hip/thigh area that I need help on. My arms & abs are very lean.

Please keep me posted on your progress.

Lisa

Lisa-

I think you're right about exercise and induction. Today I had negative amounts of energy. I tried to do light cardio but even getting to the gym was an effort. I'm also in college and I'm trying to write a paper right now and I am having a difficult time thinking. My husband can atest for the fact that I have been very grouchy today too. I think sweet tarts are in my future.

Another question: do you stick really closely to the induction rules? (e.g. no nuts, limited cheese, cream, etc.?) I'm awfully fond of low carb tortillas and peanut butter. Since starting reducing my carbs to 20g on Wednesday I've lost a couple pounds eating cream and nuts, so maybe this is okay for me?

Are you doing a BFL type workout, or something else? Do you do some cardio without sweet tarts (I know you said you ate them prior to spinning) or no?

Thanks for the input!
Sabrina

Sabrina-

No I don't follow the rules of induction. The only rules I follow are the fat/protein/carb percentages that I posted below. I got them from the CKD Parameters Calculator at : http://www.users.voicenet.com/~petr...ss/ckdcalc.html

I keep my calories the same on TKD days but but subtract the 25 extra carbs X 4 calories per carb= 100 calories. I deduct the 100 calories from that days fat.

I love the tortillas too! I use Fitday.com to calculate my food for the day. I put in my main meals for the day and adjust my other eating to obtain the correct ratios. Add your nuts if the fat is too low.

I do BFL and on Tues & Sat I do spinning. I have had Sweet Tarts before my spinning and will continue unless I see a negative impact. I figure that it's only adding 150 extra carbs for the week vs. the 450 carbs on CKD. I'll probably be adding carbs after my BLF WO for a total of 225 extra for the week.

I'll keep you posted on my progress.

Lisa

Thanks for the info! Let me know how it works out!

hey LMari,
i can tell you that your going the wrong way with your ratios...
the one thing you need to be raised higher than anything else is protein, it's the one macronutrient responsible for reproduction of cells and muscle, and also incharge of growth in your body, not to mention it's the most anabolic, and metabolisingly stimulating macronutrient you can eat. I suggest you have protein highest, fats medium, and carbs low.

Himo_VZ
I don't understand how I'm going wrong with my ratios as I am following the Lyle's Ketogenic CKD diet. My caloric intake is 12 calories per pound. Protein intake is .9x body weight with 20 carbs a day and the fat intake makes up the remainder of the calories. Per Lyle's book. This can all be calculated using the CKD Parameters site. If I am missing something please let me know.

Are you having better results tweaking the diet?

Thanks,

Lisa

Well, the thing where I still need to find out from what is best is whether I should take 0.9 times bodyweight in lbs (is 2 g/kg) or what I read somewhere else: minimally 150 g of protein.
I had been on 1,7g /kg of bw but apparently that isn't enough protein.. so the only difference is the fat : protein ration..
What is more important? Keep the fat : protein ration high enough, or ingesting enough protein.. I am convinced that ingesting enough protein is more important.. so automatically I use less fat now.. OR I can increase the amt of cardio once again, which I actually did.. to make sure I keep a 500kcal deficit..

It really helped to use Dr Squat's calculations (see my links post) or that other one (calories per hour something??) and find out how many cals I really use..

Fietser

LMari,
I'm going away on vacation so chances are I won't be able to reply to you for a month or so. But I can tell you from a nutritionists and personal trainers point of view, that protein is the core macronutrient that you should be making up most of your calories from. As i said, it burns more fat, and without it your likely to lose LBM as opposed to fat. You should be eating approximately 1.5 grams of protein, per pound of bodyweight.

I'm not here to tell you what to do, but it is without the shadow of a doubt, that this is what you should be having more of. These books are designed for people who want to look skinny. Now that's all fine and good but why be a skinny/fat person?? Being a bodybuilder, I consume a greater amount of protein as opposed to the normal sedentry person. However, whether your exercising or not, wouldn't you rather have the nice lean body, that really is "lean"?? The people who are consuming lower protein amounts, and higher fat amounts, are losing LBM (lean body mass), which does make you appear thinner, but when it comes to the crunch, they're body is mainly composed of fat. That's not what you want I don't think, is it??

As I said previously, there is no doubt that your protein intake should be upped a great deal, whatever your bodyweight, times it by 1.5 to get your R.D.I. It's very important, and if you can, make sure you get a steady intake of all the amino acids in your diet, which are most commonly, and easily obtained through supplementation, these are the building blocks and foundations for protein synthesis and body regeneration/repair and general well being. That's my 2 cents worth, I'm off for a month vacation!

Merry Christmas and have fun all you low carbers!!!

I'm a bit confused about what is correct but here is Lyle's reply to taking protein from .9 to 1.5 x body weight. Maybe Dan will give us his opinion.

on 12/17/2002 04:29 lyle wrote:
I personally see no need to take protein that high. Above a certain point, protein is just an expensive source of glucose.

Lyle


Lisa

I personally feel you should carb up 60 minutes prior to the workout. Rather than explain the same process all over again though that I just posted on another thread, if you go here to this link and scroll to "Real Athletes" section, you'll see why you can get away with carbing up on a ketogenic diet prior to weights atleast.

http://forum.lowcarber.org/showthre...1712#post701712

Regards

Anne-Marie