I don't know why vegans were singled out in the article. Ultra-processed foods are bad for everyone. I doubt that har-core vegans eat much highly processed foods just as most carnivores don't.

Demi, I saw that article this morning and bookmarked it, but I was sure you'd bring it over here!



That was one of the comments I read early this morning (that wasn't you, was it?)

There are vegans who eat absolute junk though - candy and cookies and potato chips - as long as it doesn't have any animal ingredients in it, a lot of vegans are fine with it. But those have probably not come into veganism with any thought of improving their own health, just from an angle of protecting animals.

And the basic fact is that a great deal of the UPFs and UPF ingredients on the market are vegan:

With very few exceptions, artificial colors and flavors are vegan.
All sweeteners except honey are vegan.
All pasta except egg noodles are vegan.
Milk chocolate is not vegan, but semi-sweet and bittersweet are almost always vegan.
Almost every brand of peanut butter is vegan.
Some mass produced breads have milk, egg or honey in them, but most don't.
Pastries and donuts could be iffy - but commercial facilities are not likely to use animal fats to fry their donuts since that's far more expensive than seed oils, and any animal products that are potential allergens (like eggs or dairy) will be noted on warning labels.
It's rare for canned beans to have animal products in them - the main exceptions would be some refried beans, and some BBQ type canned beans.
Sodas - sugars, artificial flavors and artificial colors, so yeah almost always vegan.

That's just a few UPFs that come to mind that are always (or almost always) vegan - and several of those are UPFs that vegans who are doing it for health reasons would not have a problem eating.

I can't imagine that most vegans are making all their food from fresh vegetables and fruits, and baking all their own bread, or making all their own pasta from scratch. They talk a good game as far as eating piles of beans and pastas and using vegan milks, but a lot of it is UPF, and I think that was at least part of the point the article was making.

I have nothing against vegans as long as they don't try to force others to join them.

I am a fussy eater, and I have some food intolerances. I just quietly go about eating what I think is good for me, and I'll give advice to other like-minded people, but I'm not going to demand that restaurants cater to me, or anyone else should eat like me.

My wife and I have two vegan friends. When we go out to eat with them, we simply find a restaurant that will feed both the vegans and the omnivores. They don't preach, they don't demand, and I've never even asked them why they are vegans. I just accept it.

They don't go for the fake meat thing, though. I remember them saying that they ate fake meat when they first started being vegan as a transition food. But they decided why eat fake meat when they were trying to give it up.

They might be killing themselves, but IMHO they have a right to do so. People climb mountains, hang glide, play sports, do drugs, drink gatoraid, and do quite a few other things that may shorten their lives.

That's what freedom and liberty is all about. Do what you want as long as it doesn't infringe on my life and liberty.

But don't try to make me be a vegan and I won't try to make you an omnivore. Fair enough.

So .. vegans are killing themselves with UPFs. Duh.

Yet, "questionnaire based" studies of omnivorous meat based mixed diets that include UPF crap carbs in the mix ultimately conclude that it's the meat at fault.


Yes. Thank you.

I agree that vegans are at the highest risk point, since their efforts to not have any animal content results in lots of artificial "food." This is on top of what I consider way too much plant content with lots of anti-nutrients, which they also do not believe in.

In my experience, these aren't the earnest "Food for a Small Planet" devotees, who sprout their grains and soak their beans. Few of them have heard of the Weston A. Price Foundation, and traditional food prep methods. This means there's even more dangerous anti-nutrients in what they eat, on top of the high sugar and seed oil content.

Their claims of human animal activism are also suspect. PETA has been documented in Virginia as killing animals entrusted to their care. Some vegan followers are well-meaning, but their research abilities are pathetic at best. The leaders of veganism and "Fat Positivity" are paid by food companies to push plant-based eating; this is now known. A UK doctor pushing this is finally in danger of losing her license.

The average devotee is a kind-hearted person who is being lied to. I'm against factory farms. That's what needs to change. But sensible, science-based voices are getting lost in the tidal wave of bought media and lying vegans who don't dare tell anyone what they actually eat behind closed doors.

Because they get death threats from other vegans. And they claim to be MORE humane than little ol' me? I doubt it. Sincerely.

I agree with Youtuber Vegan Deterioration, who documents long term vegans -- and their children -- on her channel. She's a former vegan who "came to her senses." She has so many clips of vegans with skeletal faces, dull eyes, and dry wispy hair.

It's just another form of eating disorder. Because one thing actual veganism might be good at would be a "calorie-restricted fast." They think it's the PLANTS when it's their body actually getting past the insulin resistance... and getting a hold of some animal fat. Their own.

Explained in this favorite article:

We Must Reclaim Human Health, Sustainability, Environmental Justice, And Morality From The Birdseed Brigade

No, it wasn't me.

I was speaking of the quoted comment from dodger.

(I can see why you thought I was referring to you though, since I mentioned you by name)

__________

This comment from above by DoreenT:



Exactly.

I saw comments on the original article in the Telegraph saying that the author was a hard core carnivore, something which I don't believe is entirely accurate due to this part of the article:



That hardly sounds like a hard core carnivore to me.

This is probably what makes them think he's a nutcase though:



So many people who are not vegans are already eating a nearly-vegan diet because of the way that carbs are praised as the route to good health - eggs and bacon are wrongly considered to be a "heart attack on a plate".

But plates piled high with bread and pasta are considered to be good for you - when the should rightly be considered to be "morbid obesity and diabetes on a plate."

And what made up people's minds for them? Industry propaganda, right down to the science they bought. It's tobacco all over again, because a giant industry is built on a slower version of any other addictive drug.

If a quarter of the money was available to actually teach people, the success which followed would create a new industry. It would at least be a step up from where we are now.

The "drug" we really need was the one we built ourselves, in our own heads. It's the process where I look at ultraprocessed food and my mind might as well be looking at the formica countertop underneath. That's not food

A huge part of it is simply the advertising involved.

Although to be fair about the advertising, I find a commercial that features a close up of a juicy burger being cooked on a flame grill to be far more mouth watering than the commercials that feature dancing candy cartoon characters or someone walking down the sidewalk eating chips out of a bag and turning the bag upside down to get the last crumbs out of it when it's empty. (I know I'm showing how long it's been since I've actually watched TV, but surely there are more recent commercials that utilize the same tactics)

None of those examples are considered to be healthy food by the current standards, but while both try to elicit interest (and preferably obsession) over the depicted food, only the relatively unprocessed burger really gets the strong reaction they're after (at least from me, even back when I was eating very high carb)

While I truly dislike factory farming, without factory farms I also don't believe it would currently be possible to feed the entire US population sufficient animal protein. A hundred years ago we had approximately 1/3 of the population we have now, and 3 times as many farms. Cities were significantly smaller, and suburbia did not exist at all. There were far more family farms. The numbers of family farms vs people living in cities (and expanding to suburbia since the 50's) has flipped in the last 100 years.

In spite of 3 times as many farms 100 years ago (none of them factory farms back then, although large ranches would have certainly raised larger numbers of cattle), based on the statistics I found, they produced far less meat back then - the 1920 farm statistics counted 66.6 M head of cattle in the US. (more than 7 million young calves were in that number) Despite factory farming of cattle, we now only produce about half that many head of cattle.

I'm pretty sure we produce far more chicken and eggs now - but that's due to factory farming, because small farms never had huge chicken barns. Chicken was special for Sunday dinner. With the current ideal of "lean meat" chicken has become a staple for weekday dinner. We produce far more eggs year round due to factory farms, since hens lay far fewer eggs during the shorter days of winter than they do during the longer days of summer. As upsetting as it is for chickens to be raised in barns, with artificial lighting they can produce eggs year round.

We have far less land in any kind of farm production than 100 years ago - mostly due to the expansion of cities, and development of suburbia. I don't blame the family farmers for that - some didn't have children who survived long enough/were willing to continue farming when they could make more money to support their family with a job in the city. Others sold their farms because the city and suburbia were surrounding them - and another farmer wasn't willing to buy in that situation, so they sold to the developers. Still others sold their farms because of bad farming years that made it impossible for them to continue financially, and often those farm sales occurred in areas of drought or flood, which means investors were able to buy up many farms at once and create a much larger farming operation... leading to factory farms.

I'm not sure how one would even go about breaking up the factory farms and making sure that they were somehow converted to family farms that provided even the paltry RDA of protein to every man, woman and child in the US. I don't like the factory farming scenario at all, but at least factory farming makes it possible to feed everyone sufficient protein. (That some people are either not able to obtain sufficient animal protein easily because they live in a food desert, or decide not to avail themselves of animal protein due to vegan ideals are different matters with complex solutions.)

And that's before you get into the issues of 100% grass fed beef/dairy and 100% pastured chickens/eggs - there are parts of the country where that's not possible due to terrain (desert, marshland,) or harsh winters (grass dies back/such deep snow that cattle can't even get to it) that mean you either supplement livestock diet with grains, or they starve in the winter.

[One final note: I just want to make sure you understand that I'm not dismissing the idea that factory farms are a serious problem - I'm just not sure what truly workable solution can be made at this point to eliminate factory farming, since it needs to be one that provides enough protein for everyone, and makes sure that everyone also has access to enough affordable animal proteins.]

I agree with you throughout. But the way "humane meat" has made its way into the food stream over the last couple of decades has moved it out of the artisan market and into something more affordable as the market responds.

Grass-fed hamburger is our staple, and it's neck and neck with the other hamburger. Brisket, even cheaper, but I'm dropping down to a factory farm level, which is also good for people. As available meat got better, people were demanding butchers and better quality as they realized the difference. When a person is not buying much else, it's not as shocking for me as it is for someone comparing the amount of fast food they could get for those dollars.

When I went low carb, our food budget didn't change. A whole pie costs as much as a package of stew meat.

Corporations plead profit, but what they really mean is ridiculous profit. But now people can buy hormone free meat or eggs from chickens who are actually eating a proper diet, one can tell from color and texture. So I pay more, because I'm getting more.

This is becoming a market driver. Letting cows graze, which is what they naturally do? I hear from Western US veterinarians that the free range steers they treat are in the best shape. And you can ignore them!

But this ancient herding process can't be crushed into the corporate mold -- that, as much as anything, is why they do it. They will make everything into metrics, even if that ruins the purpose of the enterprise.

I don't think the Western diet has become one of choice. And it has swung back into an interest in, and support of actual foods. Sure, Grandma battered that chicken with flour and fried it in Crisco, but we do know better now.

The line between advertising and content was deliberately blurred in the US and the law about labeling is actually being enforced, currently. It will take clarity and consistency to help people realize when they are being sold a clever lie.

Factory farms aren't the norm, but they are also not the only alternative. Any such improvement, in any food, is welcome.

I've noticed that grass fed ground beef is becoming more readily available and not much more expensive than standard ground beef.

But other cuts of grass fed beef, as well as chicken and eggs that are pastured/free range/organic are often 2-3 times the price of their conventionally grown counterparts. (and the chickens that are fed an organic vegetarian diet? Loads more expensive, but chickens are not vegetarians, so that's not a good option)

Yes, we only get the grass fed burger, and the regular brisket is even cheaper. And sometimes, not that good. I've shopped around to find the best conventional stuff, both from stores which have butchers in the back. I don't think it's a coincidence.

The factory farm versions are cheaper, but there's also apparently a range of quality there, too. But it's also just another way of ripping off consumers. Because I'm convinced I get more when I pay more, when it comes to real food.

Today's mass-produced chicken and eggs are bred to be watery and short of flavor. Those cheap eggs with their yolks so pale and their whites so watery? And so tasteless? Literally not worth the money when what I am buying --what is healing myself and my husband from the lingering fatigue of our conditions -- is nutrition.

Food is our medicine so we budget more, but I'm not on any drugs and DH has cut down under medical guidance. That is really where we save money! Because I won't stop eating until my body says it's satisfied.

Aside from the difference between eating my food and savoring it, I do not get the same energy surge from the convenience store eggs with the pale yolks. It's not as bad as the ultra-processed stuff with all the artificial foods. This is itself an immense step up from grains and sugar.

At least right now, there's a huge range of difference that DH & I, as sick people, can detect. As I told him as our "food program" started: if it doesn't pay off, we'll stop.

But it does seem to help. We'd rather pay for food instead of medicine, and when we look at it that way -- especially in today's health market -- that's a win. For myself, it takes four cheap eggs to get the same satiation of two expensive eggs.

This might not apply to people who are in basic good health. How can anyone realize they are eating more of the cheap eggs because they never buy the expensive ones? Maybe these micro-distinctions means more when someone is sick or recovering?

I just know that whole foods animal diet has turned me into a werewolf no not really. I do have better tastebuds, though. This turned the fast food into dirt for both of us, tastewise. I was so glad when DH experienced it because it is hard to imagine when we are in the throes.

Such a price/quality disparity applies to every range of consumer item, so it's no surprise it's out there in food. And I probably have a skewed idea from the four supermarkets in the area, where one has the best produce and worst meat. I won't buy it, but that's out there, too.

WB - in your case, yes you want the absolute best, most-naturally-produced, highest quality meat, dairy and eggs you can find since it is paramount in your healing.


But when we talk about the population in general needing to ditch the UPFs and eat more animal products, plenty of animal fats and proteins need to be made available to them - and at prices that they can feel ok about substituting for their usual diet of chips ahoy and fluffy white bread. It's hard enough to look at the small pile of food you get for $50 when it's all meat, eggs, cheese, fish and some fresh or plain frozen vegetables. It looks like it can't possibly be enough food to last as long as the piles and piles of big boxes of cereal, pasta, and ready to eat meals you can get for the same amount of money. (And of course in cases where that's the type of food they're eating, it's often a complete mystery to them how you go from a chunk of meat or a carton of eggs and fresh or frozen green beans to what they get in their microwave ready meal)

Back to the topic of vegans - they might be willing to pay organic/grass fed prices for animal proteins. The real problem will be actually getting them to give up their vegan ideology and eat some animal products.