I think you'll find that the SBD website is updated before the books are. The website is changed as and when, books can only be changed on each print run and even then it's costly to do so because it means re-editing.

Really, what is the issue here? Let's sort it out because people are obviously irked.

You guys stick ridgidly to the plan and what's written in the lists (are Rum and Coke on the SBD Tim? )

I don't because I've done my own research and in my own experience, I've found something out which makes a meat ok to eat.

For a start, it's a once in a while meat. I presume only the very wealthy would choose to eat duck every day?

Secondly, many people here probably buy mass produced chicken breasts without one idea of the animal welfare issue that the bird has sat in a chicken shed with thousands of other animals, being squashed and deformed by those bigger birds around them. Sick and dead animals get thrown away. Birds are fed grain and water, plus antibiotics to make them larger and to fend off certain diseases.
It was discussed in depth in a recent programme on Channel 4 in the UK, called Dispatches.
Here is the programme link:

http://www.channel4.com/news/micros...market_secrets/

Notice this:
'The programme also examines why chickens nowadays have more fat and less protein '

Yet, the vast majority of shoppers will buy these super sized chicken breasts because they represent 'good value for money'. They're available here in Aus. Chicken production for the mass market is common to all western countries where the population demands are met.
Chickens aren't naturally a flightless bird, yet because of the way manufacturers breed them, they're too heavy even for their own skeletal system and this is why they end up sitting in their own faeces.
How much fat exactly is in your chicken?

So, now let's compare that with buying and eating either a farmed duck breast or a wild one, as in my case. I can't speak for Fox, but I'm betting on Tesco's, which are a good quality meat.

Duck farming differs greatly. They are not fed antibiotics, they are free to roam and they have daylight time outside. Wild ducks, obviously are wild and free to go where they like.
The fat content, once the skin is removed, makes the duck an acceptable meat to eat. Whatever your feelings on the American Heart Foundation and their attitude to LC diets, they also agree.

The calorie content of said meat, without skin is comparable. You can google yourself for this, but here's a good website which tells you, per 3 oz, that some cuts of chicken have more fat in them than duck.

http://www.dietbites.com/CalorieIndexChick.html

This site has some useful information too:

'The other concern among the uninitiated appears to be the somewhat higher fat content of duck, which is true of whole duck but not of leg meat or skinless breast. '
http://www.duckhealth.com/foodvalu.html

Now, onto duck fat. There's a very handy little chart at the bottom of this site which shows you the breakdown of duck fat. It's not so far away from chicken, and cholesterol-wise, is exactly the same...
Dr A tells us to eat 'healthy fats'. If we are doing this for the sake of our internal organs, then there appears to be no difference between the chicken and duck, and even comes down more favourably on the side of the duck when it comes to polyunsaturated fats (the good stuff)

Could this be part of the reason why the French don't suffer from high amounts of heart disease in their country? More so in the country regions of France where duck and duck fat consumption is higher?

Here's a handy link to the AHA's 'know your fats' page.

http://www.americanheart.org/presen...?identifier=532

So, this leads us to the question of whether Dr A is right or wrong to put duck into a high fat category which you must avoid.

You choose.

I have chosen. I don't take everything I read in a book as gospel simply because I am not that sort of person. I have a brain and can think for myself as well as doing my own research. My research has shown the answers.

For those who think it's high fat and 'have to agree', then show me your research to back this up. I have shown you a bit of mine, fair's fair.
I have already stated there may be country wide differences from the very get go, yet still, people are annoyed. Apparently Tim's not going to post on this thread again!

So, I eat duck once or twice a month. I've lost 12 lb since I last weighed myself, I'm following the diet, and so the evidence all says that I am losing weight.

The annoyance therefore, is more that I am choosing to go my own way and believe my own research rather than the good Dr A.
It's ok. I'm allowed to do that. I'm a grown up and whilst I appreciate his guidelines, I don't need him or anyone else to tell me what I can and can't do when the evidence points to the contrary.

It's all about the evidence, folks.

Excuse me? You lose your weight then come talking to me about drinking. Continue doing what you are doing, its no big deal to me.

Thank you and goodnight!

Edit : Oops. I probably shouldn't have posted this..because it's not in the "gospel" of the SBD book right?

LOL. Goodnight Tim.

Hey, I'm merely pointing out you said you followed the SBD lists. You don't ALL THE TIME, nor does pretty much anyone here, because everyone does what works for them and avoids what doesn't. Everyone has cheat days, people come off the diet and go back on it.

Regardless of whether you choose to eat duck, pizza, rum and coke or whatever, everyone here is different. I'm in this boat because of a thyroid condition but hey, it's working - 12lb gone since I restarted after emigration.
As regards 'gospel', that's a funny comment to make considering that neither duck nor rum and coke are on the ok foods list! I'm sure you can make a case for rum and coke.. I've seen it done on the Atkins board.

I'm not really sure why you're so inflamed Tim. There's really no need. It's a public forum and you will encounter all kinds of people and those who have differing opinions than your own. That's ok too. It's part of posting on such a thing.

The issue which you seemed to have a problem with was the duck issue, or perhaps me challenging Dr A's assumption that duck is fatty. I'm not sure which, but either way, I've posted above and I think that's fair enough.
Don't have a cow, Tim. It's merely an opinion.

who was the one that said one time to someone else that we are all different and what works for one might not work for the other? We have each to find what works for us. Annabel found that eating duck since she can get it without the high fats we get it here in the US works for her. Why do some have to question that and get all offensive about it?

Sorry but this forum is getting worst by the minute. I am starting to think that some people on here just want to push their opinions onto others lately and I am not liking it a bit. Maybe I just need to leave for a bit and just hope that it will get better instead of worst.

Don't go anywhere miezimau... I'd miss your posts.

Forums have phases... It's just the way they are.

FWIW, I'm still confused what got Tim going in the first place. <scratches head>

Annabel, the funny thing is you are probably 100% correct. What we all need to remember is that Dr A had to write a book for the masses. When he says to eat as much chicken as you'd like, just make sure it's chicken breast without the skin, you have to realize that >50% of those dieting aren't going to stay strict. Many will in fact eat legs or thighs, or have a little skin, thinking, "what the hell - this is so much healthier than what I used eat - it can't hurt that much".

So he had to write the book accounting for the fact that people will cheat. If he said Duck breast with all skin and fat removed is ok, he'd have to expect a bunch of people to start ordering duck from chinese restaurants and removing the skin. Then people wouldn't be losing weight and blame Dr A for a crappy diet.

So I'm assuming he got more strict on certain foods that can easily be cheated with.

I can imagine the cheaters (god I hate that word) in the Chinese restaurant right now, salivating over the crispy duck and pancakes.

I'm not sure how easily you can cheat with duck though... it's expensive!
Seriously though, given that duck breast and chicken aren't that different in calorie count then this wouldn't work, would it? Why say one thing is high fat and another isn't even though there's only a small amount in it. Dr A trusts us to get the other 'sometimes' foods right.. why not this one?
Certainly with skin, it's much higher, so you may have a point that he's put it there to stop people eating the fat. Either that or he's just simply, looking at the whole duck rather than the breast or leg or...he's wrong. He can be wrong... he's still just a guy . You'd have thought given that duck is, according to research, higher in healthier fats, a cardiologist would know that... .right?

Hey look whatever the answer is, the research says it's ok. Maybe I'll drop Dr A a line.

We're adults and we control what we put in our mouths at the end of the day.

OMG! Sorry for sparking such a heated debate. I honestly thought that Duck was lower in fat if you took the skin off - I have always been under that apprehension and perhaps the ducks from different countries are of different fat levels like Annabel said.

My point to all this though is that there is no need to have a fight over something I ate on one day! I have eaten duck only twice this year....for what it's worth i can tell you what the calorie content of the meat was....it was 220 cals for one breast without the skin, which is a little high, but I didn't think it was too bad when I usually do eat low fat meat, and if you compare that to a chicken breast which is 211, it was about the same cals...

I feel a little sad that it needed a thread opened about it...

Sorry to upset folk.

Hazel

Well you're right Hazel... duck IS lower in fat if you take the skin off, as are pretty much all those gamey type birds.

You didn't upset anyone... I did (apparently although I'm still mystified as to why) and I'm quite happy to have picked up on this.
There are some people who are quite happy with authority and never challenge what they hear and read. I am not one of those people and never have been. The world is made of up all sorts of people. I've had to challenge doctors over their lack of treatment for my thyroid condition, so I'm quite used to doing this. If I hadn't I might well be dead by now. My mother however, would never consider questioning someone like that, especially not in the medical profession.

What's important to remember is that all these doctors are people and people make mistakes. I don't know about Dr A's reasoning for including duck in the 'high fat' category, but imo he's wrong and so I shall continue to eat it. 12lb weight loss speaks for itself.

Of course the irony here is that people go on about SBD not being low fat and it's not. Therefore for people who have a couple of ounces of cheese in a meal can easily substitute that when they have a duck breast if they're remotely concerned. Duck has higher good fats in it and imo, you're absolutely fine eating it. Just be sensible.

Like I said, we're all adults and if we can't have a mature, reasonable discussion on a message board without people flouncing off in a childish manner, then we haven't got a hope.

This little disagreement is NOT about Hazel's menu choice. It's about personal freedom and responsiblity, and the need to make choices for others. And yes, these forums have their good and bad times. I have stayed away from this forum because it doesn't seem like a nurturing, supportive environment. But I need to be somewhere with others who understand me right now, so I'm trying to stick around and find something to like about this place again.

I'm getting to the point that I don't even feel comfortable saying I'm doing the SBD anymore, because I don't follow the plan to the exact number. I make modifications to it so that it is acceptable to me. Otherwise, I won't do the damn thing at all! Which is a point I believe Dr. A made throughout his book. In the end, it's all about making healthier choices and being better off for it. It's not about meeting someone else's goals that they have for you.

I am having *processed* (EEK) ham on my chef salad today. I ate a plain salad yesterday with Vinaigrette and nearly gagged the entire time trying to choke it down. Today I will eat something I enjoy, and if it effects my weight loss in a negative way, then I'll have to come up with a compromise.

And as far as duck goes, I imagine if you could get wild or free farmed duck in the US, it would be no worse for you than chicken. It's the processed food industry that ruins healthy foods for Americans.

well said Annabel