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-   -   Marty Kendall's Data-Driven Fasting (http://forum.lowcarber.org/showthread.php?t=484792)

GRB5111 Wed, Apr-20-22 15:12

Quote:
Originally Posted by JEY100
Rob, I hadn’t seen you commenting lately, so I thought you were fishing last month. Maybe now you have just permanently "Gone Fishing"? Enjoy retirement! :wave:

Hi Janet, I've been gearing up during April and have been taking forays locally in Virginia, and the "old country" for me is New England and the MA coast. Getting ready to leave at the end of the month for the early striped bass migration and to spend time with family and friends on the South Shore of Boston, where I was born and raised. I'll occasionally drop in here and over at ON during that time. I'm learning you can be busy in retirement while still trying to figure out the R word . . .

thud123 Thu, Apr-21-22 05:03

Congrats Rob, I didn't know - Fishing sound so good! we're just getting back into open water season here (lakes) looking forward to getting my tackle sorted and getting back on the water. Enjoy!

GRB5111 Thu, Apr-21-22 07:02

Quote:
Originally Posted by thud123
Congrats Rob, I didn't know - Fishing sound so good! we're just getting back into open water season here (lakes) looking forward to getting my tackle sorted and getting back on the water. Enjoy!

Thanks, thud. Yeah, getting to that time of year, so like you, I'm getting my gear ready. Some good lakes and streams that I fish in the New England area as well.

WereBear Fri, Apr-22-22 14:14

I have been delving into a lot of Mr. Kendall's ideas.

I'm rather impressed with the difference I get by concentrating on protein in every meal :)

JEY100 Sun, Apr-24-22 07:04

Glad to hear it is helping you. Protein in the first meal of the day with its natural fats. And having more protein with the carbs like the dairy, fruit, tubers for the second meal just seems to work with my natural BG patterns.

thud123 Sun, Apr-24-22 07:07

After a week of antibiotics I'm going to come out of "Pause" mode on DDF app and see if I can hang with were I left off. Flexible System!

JEY100 Wed, Apr-27-22 03:14

Marty Kendall has overhauled and updated the DDF Manual.
At 190 pages and 45k words, it's literally a book - detailing everything you need to know about fasting, nutrition and exercise.
You can download it for free here.
https://buff.ly/3EbvRpR


This should be the April 2022 update at 190 pages. If you are already in the Optimising Nutrition community, you can find the .pdf in Premium Content. Most of the updates are improved organization of the many topics and minor editing.

WereBear Wed, Apr-27-22 05:30

Thanks so much for all the great coverage, Jey.

JEY100 Wed, Apr-27-22 06:12

Thanks, WearBear. :wave:
I was also going to add the new update of Everything you ever wanted to know about…. The Protein Sparing Modified Fast.
https://optimisingnutrition.com/psmf/

Dr Ted Naiman's Weight Loss or LowEnergy version of the PE diet is basically the same. If you want all the key points of a PSMF in graphics and photos, this simple website works too:

https://www.lowenergydiet.com/

WereBear Wed, Apr-27-22 06:18

I took three months off with bed rest, which included focus on my diet. Comfortably under 20 a day almost every day! Which is what works for me.

Stone age pancreas. It sees more carbs than that, it assumes I have stumbled across a beehive, and of course I'm going to eat the whole thing :)

Beebsbert Fri, Apr-29-22 10:12

After 20 days of DDFing, I am down to 154.9 (started at 159).

My current trigger is 86. My morning glucose today was 83.

Really loving the results! Two thumbs up so far.

JEY100 Fri, Apr-29-22 12:31

:clap: :cheer: :clap:
Shoot…you are under your goal weight already! And your BG is way better than mine will ever be. ;)
Don’t leave us now, the Macro and Micro classes have more great nutrition information too.

thud123 Sat, Apr-30-22 07:44

Day 19: Fat and Glucose Behave Differently in Your Body

...However, if you are more insulin resistant with high waking blood glucose and body fat, switching carbs and protein for dietary fat merely manages the symptom by reducing high blood sugars after you eat. It will not necessarily help you lose body fat or reverse your insulin resistance. Swapping carbs for fat will just manage the symptom that you are measuring (high blood sugars), it won’t necessarily fix the root cause (i.e. excess body fat)...

-DDF Manual (Daily Lessons)


I have changed my mind about eating lots of excess fat, especially if you have lots of it in and around your body like I do. Might explain lots of folks stalls using LCHF. Eating a lot of excess fat OR carbs pushes out room for essential nutrients like protein's amino acids, vitamins. Woman and Man can not live on Carbs or Fat alone :)

JEY100 Sat, Apr-30-22 09:43

^^^^
This! :clap:

I listened again to a Ted Naiman interview on Boundless Body, #45 (new one soon)

He talked about having Mental Flexibility in addition to Metabolic Flexibility. That's where I am... With higher protein and nutrients, I am Agnostic between Fat and Carbs.

WereBear Sun, May-01-22 07:18

Quote:
Originally Posted by JEY100
With higher protein and nutrients, I am Agnostic between Fat and Carbs.


🤣🤣🤣

I feel the same way about my macro-nutrient setup since I acted on some Marty insights. By focusing on protein, which also adds nutrients, I lost the last of my Pandemic weight, have been maintaining, and feel better!

JEY100 Mon, May-02-22 06:19

This may be prejudiced by my own insights over the past 20 months, but it seems "everyone" is moving to higher protein, higher nutrients and lower fat. I just listened to Vanessa Spina (formerly the podcaster known as Ketogenic Girl 😉 ) now Optimal Protein Podcast. Her guest was Dr Wrigley a Naturopath over in Charlotte. For weight loss in older women, he has moved to 40-45% Protein, lower fat, watch nutrients to support thyroid, etc. Everything that happens naturally with Dr Ted Naiman and Marty Kendall"s advice, no supplements needed. But it is interesting that Keto is being dropped like a hot potato.😄

Ps: I didn’t like her previous Fast Keto podcast, now I have listened to every episode of Optimal Protein. Good interviews with Dr Naiman, Stuart Phillips, Don Layman, Dom DAgastino, 2 episodes with Marty Kendall….everyone in the protein priority world. Be ready to scrub the ads, but she asks good questions of her own and her followers. https://www.ketogenicgirl.com/pages...-ketogenic-girl

JLx Tue, May-03-22 07:50

I listened again to a Ted Naiman interview on Boundless Body, #45 (new one soon)

I was unaware of that one but listened to it yesterday. At the end, he concludes:

"A lot of people are figuring this out - that all that really matters is protein and calories. And you have just tons of YouTubers now whose whole schtick is you got a protein goal, a calorie limit and that's all that matters. It really doesn't matter where the carbs are, where the fat is. It's just all nonprotein energy and that's pretty much the whole message of the PE Diet. ...

It's going to be bad for a lot of the diet religions out there because when people realize that it just comes down to protein and calories there's not really a lot of point to being specifically dogmatically very low carb or very low fat. And when people realize that you can get just killer bodybuilder results out of protein and calories without being religiously paleo or religiously keto or zealot anything I think it's really going to take the wind out of the sails of some of these other diet religions.

I'm warning people - get ready for this, because people are out here getting just killer results only by focusing on protein and total calories. It's basically protein versus energy and that is extremely successful and so if your world view of diet doesn't explain how that works, you really need to step back and take a look at the big picture and maybe even go back to the drawing board.

And I am specifically talking to some of the carbohydrate-insulin hypothesis people out there. If your view of obesity doesn't take into account these bodybuilders who are effortlessly optimizing body composition just by focusing on protein percent and protein calories and not really caring what their carb versus fat spread is, you really have to spend some time thinking about how it all really works."

That was Jan, 21. I hope the interviewer follows up on this particular aspect these many months later.

JEY100 Tue, May-03-22 10:48

From other recent interviews/Twitter comments, he hasn’t changed his view. I rarely "tweet" but did about this interview…the part that stuck with me was not only having Metabolic Flexibility but the Mental Flexibility to be agnostic about fat and carbs. I’m in another strict keto group, and the level of fear about eating one carb over limit, really hits me now. If stuck longer than planned somewhere, I don’t have a meltdown over having to eat a sandwich. I even made Ted Naiman's Penne Pasta dish, high protein low fat version. Of course, I was that way myself "back in the day" :)


Quote:
Not yet in Apple store, re-listened to #45. ~In addition to Metabolic Flexibility, I have Mental Flexibility. ~Protein ⬆️ Nutrients ⬆️ Agnostic between Fat and Carbs.~Freedom from Dietary Dogma thanks to ~TedNaiman and ~martykendall2. Looking forward to new interview

JLx Tue, May-03-22 13:06

Oh, I know he hasn't changed his views. I was referring to him warning others.

When he said this, the closed-captioning read like this:
Quote:
When people realize that you can get just killer bodybuilder results out of protein and calories without being religiously paleo or religiously keto or zealot anything I think it's really going to take the wind out of the sales of some of these other diet religions.


Sales, indeed. ;)

WereBear Wed, May-04-22 09:43

Quote:
Originally Posted by JEY100
But it is interesting that Keto is being dropped like a hot potato.😄


When people I know get constant ads for KETO supplements that promise 40 pounds in 40 days, it's no longer something to be taken seriously :(

WereBear Wed, May-04-22 10:42

Quote:
Originally Posted by JLx
Sales, indeed. ;)


There's nothing good that the scammers won't glom onto.

JLx Wed, May-04-22 16:37

I don't think they necessarily have to be scammers. If people realize that all they have to do to lose weight is prioritize protein and create a caloric deficit, as Dr. Naiman talks about, what need is there for exogenous ketones, for instance?

WereBear Thu, May-05-22 05:28

Quote:
Originally Posted by JLx
I don't think they necessarily have to be scammers. If people realize that all they have to do to lose weight is prioritize protein and create a caloric deficit, as Dr. Naiman talks about, what need is there for exogenous ketones, for instance?


It's reminiscent of the way false Nigerian Princes tend to put misspellings in their email offers. Because that will turn off the well-educated and not the gullible. All scammers want people who will fall for their false promises.

These are the people who won't change their diet, but will add some sodas that promise the same effect. It's stupid, but they don't care.

They want QUICK and they want EASY and that's how Keto became a meaningless buzzword.

deirdra Thu, May-05-22 14:19

My introduction to LC was in 1999 with the Eades' "Protein Power", which calculated my minimum protein at 82g and I have been getting at least that much ever since (now I've nudged it to ~100g and nudged down my fat slightly while increasing nutrients, from (5%C:30%P:65%F to 10%C:40%P:50%F), which is lower fat, but not what most people consider low fat). Marty Kendall has charts showing that people do well on protein+carbs or protein+fat, but not on carbs+fat. I tend to agree since I tried "The Zone" (40%C:30%P:30%F) and found it and other "moderation" types of low-cal diets drove me batty with constant hunger and cravings. It may work with some peoples' metabolisms, but not mine and neither does protein+carbs because I have to eliminate lectins (grains, legumes & nightshade vegetables) to avoid autoimmune problems, which surged when I tried starving & obsessing on Pritikin (65%C:25%P:10%F) in the early 1990s and McDougall in the mid-1990s. I like Marty's approach best because it is based on data and specifically MY data and he smiles and keeps his shirt on.

WereBear Fri, May-06-22 05:11

Quote:
Originally Posted by deirdra
Marty Kendall has charts showing that people do well on protein+carbs or protein+fat, but not on carbs+fat. I tend to agree since I tried "The Zone" (40%C:30%P:30%F) and found it and other "moderation" types of low-cal diets drove me batty with constant hunger and cravings.


This was how calorie counting tried to kill me. It encourages a Noom approach that emphasizes carbs because such foods can be lower in calories, but have metabolic-derangement effects. If they'd tried, they could not have found a better way to derange mine.


Quote:
Originally Posted by deirdra
It may work with some peoples' metabolisms, but not mine and neither does protein+carbs because I have to eliminate lectins (grains, legumes & nightshade vegetables) to avoid autoimmune problems, which surged when I tried starving & obsessing on Pritikin (65%C:25%P:10%F) in the early 1990s and McDougall in the mid-1990s.


A while back we had a discussion of the Rice Diet, which is essentially carbs only, and how it worked for 1/3 of the people. 1/3 it did nothing. 1/3 it was horrible!

That last group would be me. I likewise have to avoid lectins, which restricts me to pickled vegetables and botanical fruits.

thud123 Fri, May-06-22 06:08

Quote:
Originally Posted by deirdra
...he smiles and keeps his shirt on.

So good, made me laugh. Altho if I had a body like Ted's I'd likely be ripping my shirt off too at every chance I got haha!

Have a good weekend all.

GRB5111 Sat, May-14-22 08:10

Quote:
Originally Posted by JEY100
^^^^
That's where I am... With higher protein and nutrients, I am Agnostic between Fat and Carbs.

Good place to be. As mentioned many times, emphasizing protein has been a key for me over the past few years. In the "keto diet" world when compared to the "low-fat diet" world, I believe the concept of the amount of fat that should be consumed has become grossly distorted. When I was tracking blood ketones, I ate more fat than a low-fat advocate would consider healthy, but much less than a keto person would recommend. It's relative, and I still consume the fat that comes with the healthy protein. I never went for fat bombs or bullet-proof coffee to ratchet up fat. I still want to be an efficient fat burner, and I am despite increasing my protein intake. Like Janet, today I am both carb and fat agnostic. My normal daily meals are high in protein and low in carbs (energy), but include many healthy low carb vegetable sources. Do I eat higher carb dishes? Yes, and I am not concerned in the least during a family pizza night or eating other carb-laden foods I typically avoid. But those carb and fat forays are very infrequent and don't send me on the road to dietary perdition. However, it took me awhile to get to this point both physically and mentally. If I still had the symptoms and the weight that go along with metabolic syndrome, I'd be very strict in my eating lifestyle.

deirdra Sat, May-14-22 09:42

Luckily I found Protein Power in 1999, which set my protein target at 82g/day, so I have been prioritizing protein ever since. It made a big difference compared to the RDA of 46g I had been aiming for when on low-cal diets before that ... and always felt hangry & tired and had lived with hair and nails that split easily for nearly 30 yrs. Following Marty's DDF, my minimum is 72g but I stay over 82 and aim for 100g. And 80% of that needs to be animal protein or I feel weak and tired.

WereBear Sat, May-14-22 13:48

Quote:
Originally Posted by deirdra
And 80% of that needs to be animal protein or I feel weak and tired.


How interesting! I tried ovo-lacto vegetarianism for months in the early 80's and still couldn't get enough protein. As much as I like whey protein smoothies, I also have a big serving of red meat every day.

Bwahahahaha!

JLx Sun, May-15-22 04:57

From DietDoctorhttps://www.dietdoctor.com/high-protein :

Quote:
5. How much protein do I need?

Summary

1. Calculate your daily protein goal based on your height, activity level, and health goals.

2. We recommend a protein intake of 1.6 to 2.0 grams per kilo of reference body weight.

3. If you are very physically active or taller than 6 feet, consider staying at the higher end of this range.

4. Distribute your protein intake throughout the day, with 30 to 40 grams per meal for women and 35 to 50 for men, if you are eating three meals a day.
The first step in eating a higher protein diet is setting your protein targets. We believe most people would benefit by increasing their protein intake to 1.6 to 2.0 grams per kilo per day, or 25 to 35% of daily calories. Use this simple chart to find out what your minimum daily protein target should be, based on your height.

Minimum daily protein target

Height Women Men
Under 5’4″ ( < 163 cm) 90 grams 105 grams
5’4″ to 5’7″ (163 to 170 cm) 100 grams 110 grams
5’8″ to 5’10” (171 to 178 cm) 110 grams 120 grams
5’11” to 6’2″ (179 to 188 cm) 120 grams 130 grams
Over 6’2″ (188 cm +) 130 grams 140 grams

As the chart indicates, you should try to get around 100 grams if you’re a woman and 120 grams if you’re a man of average height and build. Eat more if you’re a man taller than 6 feet (183 cm) or a woman taller than 5’6″ (168 cm) or if you’re very physically active. Eat less if you’re shorter or have a very small frame.

If you are very physically active, over 50 years old, or most of your protein comes from plant sources, we recommend aiming for the higher end of the protein range (above 1.6 grams per kilo per day). This means adding another 20 to 30 grams of protein to the targets above.

If you are physically active, want to achieve very low body fat (less than 10% for men or 20% for women), or regularly practice intermittent fasting, you may want to add even more protein. (My emphasis)


I like that they cover all bases there - being older, eating mostly plant protein, high exercise and intermittent fasting - for requiring more protein. I heard in a podcast that Dr. Peter Attia, who was practicing intermittent fasting, lost muscle in a course of a year despite his exercise habits.

Quote:
American men average 88 grams of protein per day, and women average 66 grams, which equates to only 14 to 16% of total calories. Of those protein calories, approximately 30% come from plant sources.

The main take-home message is that most people are likely not eating enough protein for weight loss, metabolic health, and improving lean muscle mass.


"Metabolic health" - this was a small study but well done indicating that a 30% protein diet can prevent pre-diabetes progressing to diabetes.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33549435/

Imagine the change to people's lives if they were encouraged to adopt a 30% protein diet at the pre-diabetes stage and then never progressed to diabetes? Why didn't this study make headlines?? Well, we know why. Diabetes is a big money maker for many.


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