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-   -   Metabolic Edge For Low Carbohydrate Diets: All Calories Are NOT Alike (http://forum.lowcarber.org/showthread.php?t=201074)

nobimbo Sat, Jul-31-04 16:36

Metabolic Edge For Low Carbohydrate Diets: All Calories Are NOT Alike
 
Thermodynamic Edge For Low Carbohydrate Diets: SUNY Downstate Researchers Say All Calories Are NOT Alike

In a paper published in Nutrition Journal (Open Access, available without subscription at http://www.nutritionj.com/home), two researchers from SUNY Downstate Medical Center show that low carbohydrate, high protein diets can be expected to be more effective than low fat diets, going against long standing prejudice of the nutritional community, which has claimed that only calories count.

(PRWEB) July 31, 2004 -- “There are numerous examples of low carbohydrate diets being more effective than low fat diets with the same number of calories. It doesn’t always happen but it can happen,” said Dr. Richard Feinman of the Department of Biochemistry. “The nutritional establishment has been reluctant to accept this, because they say it violates the law of thermodynamics. However, they never seriously look at the thermodynamics, which not only says its possible, but it is to be expected.” he added.

In their paper, Dr. Feinman and Dr. Eugene J. Fine explain that thermodynamics is as much about efficiency as it is about energy conservation. Carbohydrate is an efficient fuel, whereas protein is not. On a low carbohydrate/high protein diet, even though total energy is conserved, more energy is wasted as heat, a process known as thermogenesis. This energy comes from burning fat.

The researchers stress that “the human body is not a storage locker. It is a machine and the efficiency of the machine is controlled by hormones and enzymes. Carbohydrates increase insulin and other hormones that regulate enzymes, leading to storage rather than burning of fat.”

“Of course, people are different” said the authors, “but many people are sensitive to the effects of carbohydrates and for them, a low carb diet is going to work well.”

The practical point is that getting rid of the idea that “a calorie is a calorie” opens the door for serious research into what kind of diets will be most effective and which people will benefit most. “This is important,” they explain “because millions of people
are seriously trying to lose weight on low carbohydrate diets, and instead of being given directions on the best way to do this, they have been largely discouraged by health professionals and self-appointed expert groups. The obesity epidemic is too important to allow this to happen.”

Note to editors/reporters: You can read the entire scientific paper by going to http://www.nutritionj.com/home and clicking on “Provisional PDF” at the bottom of the headline.

http://www.prweb.com/releases/2004/7/prweb145415.htm

VALEWIS Sat, Jul-31-04 16:48

This article should be posted to every nutritionist/dietician and doctor on the planet. Lets hear it for Feinman and Fine!

Now lets hope they get on to researching fats as well in similar fashion, to look at how fatxcarb interaction is way different to fatxprotein interaction etc.

Val

ceberezin Sat, Jul-31-04 17:27

The article comes from a journal put out by SUNY Downstate. Here's the link: http://zerlina.ingentaselect.com/vl...n3/contp1-1.htm

By the way, I was under the impression that SUNY Downstate sponsored a conference on low carb science in June. Does anyone have any information on this?

ItsTheWooo Sat, Jul-31-04 17:56

Wow, that has to be the best article relating to low carbohydrate diets that I've read in a long time. Two thumbs up ;).

TheCaveman Sat, Jul-31-04 18:10

The fact that humans have hormones kind of screws up how easy it is to be a television nutritionist, eh?

Samuel Sat, Jul-31-04 18:58

I agree we should be happy to find somebody in the medical community who feels this way. However, I still disagree with some of what they said.

Quote:
In their paper, Dr. Feinman and Dr. Eugene J. Fine explain that thermodynamics is as much about efficiency as it is about energy conservation. Carbohydrate is an efficient fuel, whereas protein is not. On a low carbohydrate/high protein diet, even though total energy is conserved, more energy is wasted as heat, a process known as thermogenesis. This energy comes from burning fat.
This is all correct except that the energy waste is in food which leaves the body before being fully metabolized through breath, sweat, urine and feces. Ketones which leaves the body through urine is an example. Temprature inside our body must be the same no matter which diet we are on.

brobin Sat, Jul-31-04 20:57

Actually, your temperature varies by over a degree at different times of the day. It takes a fair bit of energy to keep your body even half a degree hotter then normal. You might not even feel it as your body can cope with this via the sweat function (which you only notice in the extreme).

I always get warn and even sweat when I eat my cheese for breakfast, especially after a workout.

On another note, I have often wondered why they are so upset about a calorie is just a calorie crap. It is obvious that our bodies are a machine. Thermodynamics is only concerned with the total energy being conserved. Everyone knows that certain engines burn fuel more efficiently. Everyone knows that some machines produce more waste energy then others. Why do nutritionists have such a difficult time with the concept that our bodies run less efficiently on protein, therefore we burn more fat and protein to do the same thing then if we ate carbs, an efficient fuel.

I am often amazed at just how stupid many scientists can be.... (and nutritionists.. LOL)

brobin

mcsblues Sat, Jul-31-04 21:33

Quote:
Originally Posted by ceberezin
The article comes from a journal put out by SUNY Downstate. Here's the link: http://zerlina.ingentaselect.com/vl...n3/contp1-1.htm

By the way, I was under the impression that SUNY Downstate sponsored a conference on low carb science in June. Does anyone have any information on this?


Yep, the Kingsbrook conference - Dr Feinman was one of the organizers. See this thread;

http://forum.lowcarber.org/showthre...ight=kingsbrook

You can email Dr Feinman and ask to be put on the mailing list for further material that this group of enlightened scientists is working on.

This paper also indicates Dr Feinman lives up to his name!;

"Title: Metabolic Syndrome and Low-Carbohydrate Ketogenic Diets in the Medical School Biochemistry Curriculum
Author(s): Richard D. Feinman PhD ; Mary Makowske PhD
Source: Metabolic Syndrome and Related Disorders Volume: 1 Number: 3 Page: 189 -- 197
DOI: 10.1089/154041903322716660
Publisher: Mary Ann Liebert, Inc.
Abstract: One of Robert Atkins contributions was to define a diet strategy in terms of an underlying metabolic principle ("the science behind Atkins"). The essential feature is that, by reducing insulin fluxes, lipids are funnelled away from storage and oxidized. Ketosis can be used as an indicator of lipolysis. A metabolic advantage is also proposed: controlled carbohydrates leads to greater weight loss per calorie than other diets. Although the Atkins diet and its scientific rationale are intended for a popular audience, the overall features are consistent with current metabolic ideas. We have used the Atkins controlled-carbohydrate diet as a focal point for teaching nutrition and metabolism in the first-year medical school curriculum. By presenting metabolism in the context of the current epidemic of obesity and of metabolic syndrome and related disorders, we provide direct application of the study of metabolic pathways, a subject not traditionally considered by medical students to be highly relevant to medical practice. We present here a summary of the metabolic basis of the Atkins diet as we teach it to medical students. We also discuss a proposed mechanism for metabolic advantage that is consistent with current ideas and that further brings out ideas in metabolism for students. The topics that are developed include the role of insulin and glucagon in lipolysis, control of lipoprotein lipase, the glucose-glycogen-gluconeogenesis interrelations, carbohydrate-protein interactions and ketosis. In essence, the approach is to expand the traditional feed-fast (post-absorptive) cycles to include the effect of low-carbohydrate meals: the disease states studied are generalized from traditional study of diabetes to include obesity and metabolic syndrome. The ideal diet for weight loss and treatment of metabolic syndrome, if it exists, remains to be determined, but presenting metabolism in the context of questions raised by the Atkins regimen prepares future physicians for critical analysis of clinical and basic metabolic information."

http://zerlina.ingentaselect.com/vl...96/v1n3/s5/p189



Cheers,

Malcolm

agd Sat, Jul-31-04 22:15

Well, I thought this was well known.

For every 100 calories of protein, you waste 30 of them. For every 100 calories of fat, you wast 3 of them. For every 100 calories of carbohydrates, you waste 10 of them.

The FDA recommends a 60/30/10 carb/fat/protein diet. On atkins, you might be 05/40/55.

.9*.6+.97*.3+.7*.1 = 0.901, i.e. you waste 10% of your cals
.9*.05+.97*.4+.7*.55 = .818, i.e. you waste 18% of your cals

So if my calculations are correct, on a 2000 kcal diet you burn 160 extra calories -- over the course of a year that adds up to 16 pounds!

Source: http://www.naturalphysiques.com/cms/index.php?itemid=99

bluesmoke Sun, Aug-01-04 05:19

Actually the Atkins ratios are carbs/fat/protein of 10/65/25. As has been stated over and over again, it is not a high protein diet, it is a high fat diet. It is not true that fat burning is 97% efficient, the body uses as much as 50% of the energy in fats in conversion to usable fuel. Nyah Levi

Nancy LC Sun, Aug-01-04 12:06

Where are you getting these numbers, Bluesmoke? I don't recall any percentages in any of the Atkins' books I read.

ItsTheWooo Sun, Aug-01-04 12:35

There might be a slight metabolic advantage to eating fat & protein preferentially to carbs, but in my experience it isn't nearly as high as the figures you're estimating.

I've tracked my metabolic rate over several months, and my metabolism seems to be only average to slightly higher than what you would expect. Living a very sedentary lifestyle, at 135-125 pounds, and a 5'5 female, I burned about 1650 calories daily average (while consuming 1150). Eating maintenance raises this a little bit (100 cals tops), but generally speaking that metabolic rate is pretty average. I was eating like 15/30/55 carb/protein/fat. If I were wasting all this energy I think I would have had a faster metabolism.

Then again, I have lost 150 pounds. All studies say that those who lose that much weight typically have abnormally slow metabolisms afterward - 25% slower due to starvation response. Those of us who were very obese have more fat cells, and in order to become "thin" we have to shrink those fat cells to a size smaller than your average person. Even though we might have an average amount of fat, we have more fat cells so each cell contains relatively less fat in it. Each cell is very much "depleted" of fat and behaves similarly as if the whole individual had low body fat, even if the total amount of fat is adequate relative to "normal" individuals.

So, the fact that I have only a relatively normal metabolism despite the weight loss (rapid at that) might be a credit to low carb. If I were eating a "normal" diet, perhaps my metabolism would be much slower. Who knows.

tholian8 Sun, Aug-01-04 13:30

Quote:
Originally Posted by ItsTheWooo
Then again, I have lost 150 pounds. All studies say that those who lose that much weight typically have abnormally slow metabolisms afterward - 25% slower due to starvation response.

Just curious...do you know if the metabolism ever bounces back, as a person goes on with their life at the new lower weight, or are you stuck with a slow metabolism for the rest of your life?

Frederick Sun, Aug-01-04 14:10

Quote:
Originally Posted by tholian8
or are you stuck with a slow metabolism for the rest of your life?


I sincerely hope this isn't the case....LOL

Trinsdad Sun, Aug-01-04 18:49

Weight training and adding lean muscle goes a LONG way to building up your metabolism.


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