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-   -   Marty Kendall's Data-Driven Fasting (http://forum.lowcarber.org/showthread.php?t=484792)

BawdyWench Tue, Feb-23-21 08:30

I remember reading that, too. I really did read all the guides plus his blog. :lol:

I seem to be averaging around 1400 calories, but I'm getting way more protein and way less fat than in all my prior years of LC eating.

BawdyWench Wed, Feb-24-21 07:51

Morning BG was 88, which is the lowest reading so far for first thing in the morning. Weight is the same as yesterday. Yesterday's macros:

Calories: 1,150
Fat: 54 g
Carbs: 48 g
Protein: 118 g

There's a lively discussion already on the DDF Facebook page. I've always wondered about OMAD (One Meal a Day). I can't seem to do that ... yet.
Maybe I'll get there. One woman writes:

Quote:
I went to eating OMAD - one meal a day. (This works well for me). Prioritised protein, minimized both fats and carbs. So, lots of lean protein. Chicken breast, lean ham, salmon, tuna, fish, prawns. Egg whites added to omelettes or smoothies. Low fat Greek yoghurt. Salad greens, tomato, asparagus, courgette, spinach etc. Berries, rhubarb. I eat a lot in that one meal.


She doesn't say how much of those foods she eats, but if she's getting enough protein, how can she possibly eat all those veggies, too? I'd be stuffed to the gunnels. Another woman says:

Quote:
After 10 days i was eating omad. Protein vegetables no fats no dairy. Average 600 calories daily.


I guess I'm a little confused. Marty tends to recommend Ted Naiman's P:E ratios and levels (right?), so how is this second woman getting enough protein? Naiman's formula is to start with 100 pounds for females and add 5 pounds for every inch you are over 5 feet tall. At 5'6", that makes my ideal weight 130. I believe that's ridiculous, unless you're in your teens or twenties.

Naiman goes on to say that this is the amount of protein you need in grams.
So, 130 g protein for me. If I were to pick a very lowfat whitefish, I'd have to eat 2 pounds of it to get to 146 g protein. And that's 768 calories, higher than the second woman's menu. I must be missing something.

Or maybe it's like the HCG plan where they say the reason you can get by on 500 calories virtually no fat fat or protein (around 50g total) is because you're getting your nutrition from the fat that is stored in your body's fat cells.

I've been really trying to reach more than 130 g of protein, but maybe I don't have to ... or maybe I shouldn't try. ~Just eat until I'm satisfied, and if it turns out to be 90 g of protein for the day, I should just take it?

I suppose I should just be patient and see how this rolls out from day to day.
It doesn't even start until March 6. That's 10 more days. I also suppose I should use those 10 days to re-read the DDF book and memorize all 99 FAQs.

Right, Janet? lol: :lol: :lol:

JEY100 Wed, Feb-24-21 13:44

Although I used a version of PE, Marty really is "Diet Agnostic". There are a number of committed vegetarians and they eat some weird things to get higher protein levels. Lori is one of those tiny women who eat OMAD, and she has been a Trim Healthy Mama fan for years. His data show 2 meals earlier in the day gives the most satiety but if you want to OMAD, that's fine too. Find what works best for you. Marty recommends his own MacroCalculator, and then if you should increase protein and lower fat only do so in small increments.
I laughed at the Ted Naiman formula...not for a 70 yo retired woman with a personal and family history of obesity. That Goal page early in the program..pick what YOU think is comfortable, it may not even be a weight.

And he asks to consider protein % not absolute grams.

Quote:
35. How much protein do I need?
Protein requirements will depend on your lean mass and your activity level. While 0.8 g/kg LBM is an absolute minimum to prevent deficiency, we tend to find people do better in terms of nutrient density and satiety with 1.8 g/kg LBM or ideally 2.2 g/kg LBM to prevent loss of muscle during weight loss.
In percentage terms, we find people achieve better satiety and fat loss when they work up to 40 to 50% of their energy from protein. However, rather than eating more high protein foods, this is achieved by getting adequate protein and dialling back easily accessible energy from both fat and carbs.
While more bioavailable protein will help to preserve lean muscle when you are losing weight, if you find you are not hungry, you donít need to worry so much about your absolute protein intake (in grams) so long as your protein percentage is higher than 40%.
You can use our simple macro calculator to see how much protein you need and track your intake in Cronometer for a few days to see what you are getting from your current diet.

BawdyWench Wed, Feb-24-21 15:56

Yup, read that from Kendall, but I also read this from Naiman's book:

Quote:
A good rule of thumb is targeting protein at about 1 gram per day per pound of IDEAL body weight (not what you actually weigh, but what you probably SHOULD weigh). A rough estimate of idea body weight for women is 100 pounds for the first five feet of height and then 5 pounds for every additional inch over 5 feet....

So a male 5 feet 10 inches tall would want to target 160 grams of protein per day, and a female 5 feet 4 inches tall would want to target 120 grams of protein per day. Keep in mind that these are MINIMUM targets and it would be ok to EXCEED this number.


Granted, I know it's not good to mix plans. I'll experiment a bit. Today so far I've already had 64 grams of protein (7.8 g lean ham and 4.5 g of lean pork) and I'm still full. For dinner I'm making steak. It comes out to 128 g protein for the day, yet with only 725 calories.

I'm still wavering all over, but all in a good way, if you know what I mean.

JEY100 Wed, Feb-24-21 18:58

You might enjoy the interview with both Marty and Dr. Naiman..there was discussion of protein.

Marty has collected his Streamyard interviews so they are now on YouTube to watch. https://youtu.be/ilduzDTFUlQ

BawdyWench Thu, Feb-25-21 05:33

Thanks, Janet! Super busy today, but I'll put it on the list for this weekend.

And thanks for quoting the FAQ about how much protein is needed. I've been re-reading the FAQs, and somehow had missed this part of that particular one:

Quote:
While more bioavailable protein will help to preserve lean muscle when you are losing weight, if you find you are not hungry, you donít need to worry so much about your absolute protein intake (in grams) so long as your protein percentage is higher than 40%.


Good to know!!! I'd been trying to reach at least 130 g of protein even when I wasn't hungry, forcing myself to eat that much. Now I know it's ok to back off and eat less, as long as I'm getting 40% of calories as protein. The menu I have planned for today ends up with 963 calories and 94 g protein, which is 39% of the total. Fat is at 49 g and carbs at 13 g.

JEY100 Fri, Feb-26-21 06:30

If you want to lose weight, that is perfect...what is supposed to happen. Marty and Ted would of course like to see more carbs, but that is hard for me after a decade of limiting them, and you having to figure out how to cook the fiber or some way avoid gut distress.
My big cheat in Optimising Nutrition is still Greek yogurt, with protein powder and collagen (56g protein) and 1/2 c berries (with yogurt for 9.2 net carbs)

DDF is primarily about meal timing and finding the optimal fasting schedule for you through progressive overload...but What to eat gets added about half way through, tips on front Loading protein, etc...so you are way ahead already :lol:

lowjax Fri, Feb-26-21 07:05

Love the thread going on here. I'm not going to do DDF now, but love learning from your back and forth.

And this:
Quote:
While more bioavailable protein will help to preserve lean muscle when you are losing weight, if you find you are not hungry, you donít need to worry so much about your absolute protein intake (in grams) so long as your protein percentage is higher than 40%.


That's great. I often get the minimum protein recommended, but this is good to know for days that I don't want to eat a lot.

JEY100 Fri, Feb-26-21 07:12

Jeff, I started back in August by getting Marty's free DDF manual, which includes the basic spreadsheet, and doing it on my own. Later I wanted the community of the Challenges, but Marty truly gives an amazing amount of information in his blog and free books. Find the books through this thread https://forum.lowcarber.org/showpos...26&postcount=48

GRB5111 Fri, Feb-26-21 07:12

Quote:
Originally Posted by JEY100
If you want to lose weight, that is perfect...what is supposed to happen. Marty and Ted would of course like to see more carbs, but that is hard for me after a decade of limiting them, and you having to figure out how to cook the fiber or some way avoid gut distress.
My big cheat in Optimising Nutrition is still Greek yogurt, with protein powder and collagen (56g protein) and 1/2 c berries (with yogurt for 9.2 net carbs)

DDF is primarily about meal timing and finding the optimal fasting schedule for you through progressive overload...but What to eat gets added about half way through, tips on front Loading protein, etc...so you are way ahead already :lol:

Good observations, as I won't start adding unnecessary carbs without understanding two things:
1) How they would be beneficial for my health, and if only borderline, no go.
2) Whether they lead down a slippery slope and trigger desire for more carbs.

After having dealt with indiscriminate carb eating for many years when I was very fit and very naive, I won't ever go that route or try anything long term that can lead back to that uninformed route.

Like the idea of adding protein to Greek yogurt. I'll have to try that one.

lowjax Fri, Feb-26-21 07:16

Quote:
Originally Posted by JEY100
Jeff, I started back in August by getting Marty's free DDF manual, which includes the basic spreadsheet, and doing it on my own. Later I wanted the community of the Challenges, but Marty truly gives an amazing amount of information in his blog and free books. Find the books through this thread https://forum.lowcarber.org/showpos...26&postcount=48


Thanks so much for the link! I do appreciate it!

BawdyWench Fri, Feb-26-21 07:18

It's funny, because I never thought of protein as satiating. For me, fat was what I went to for satiety. Now that I'm focusing on increasing protein and lowering fat, I can't believe how full I am after eating protein!

Janet, I'm with you on the carbs, especially the ones with a lot of fiber. Veggies are really more a condiment, to add a bit of another flavor to meals.

About 10 or so years ago I started going to the Women to Women clinic here in Maine. Loved it at first, but they were so heavily into supplements I was spending at least $100 per month, every month, on them. The NP I saw (they were all NPs, no MDs) insisted I try the Schwarzbein program with 90 grams of carbs a day (popcorn was high on the list of recommendations). I told her I'd gain weight on 90 grams of carbs a day, even without eating starches (except for healthywholegrains, of course). She said that was rubbish and insisted I try it. So I did, and gained something like 15 pounds over the course of the summer. She was stunned and I suspect she didn't really believe I was following the program, even though I was following it to the letter.

JEY100 Fri, Feb-26-21 07:19

Rob, That is a variation of Ted's Protein Ice Cream. Wildly popular for some reason. Try it with frozen mixed berries. :lol:

https://www.lowenergydiet.com/Tips.html

Ted's rant about "Processed Foods". https://youtu.be/zCgDBd8FgvY
It was very freeing for me ;)

Ms Arielle Fri, Feb-26-21 08:16

BW, about your post where u question how can a person get enough protein on 600 cal a day.......from what I understand about Dr Fungs writings, fasting drives the body to clean up and reuse that protein. Perhaps low calorie diets and vegetarian diets also work to clean up , at least this is my hypothesis and I'm looking for verification. Dr fung is certain fasting cleans up the body to recycle protein.

BawdyWench Fri, Feb-26-21 08:33

Ms. Arielle, I think you're right. I know with the HCG plan where you eat only 500 calories with no more than around 50 g of protein, they say that the low calories "free up" the fat cells and you end up getting your nutrition from that source.

I was trying to equate eating one meal a day of 130+ grams of protein, per Naiman. In the quote Janet posted above, the recommendation can go up to 2.2 g/kg LBM to prevent loss of muscle during weight loss. If your lean body mass is, say, 100 kilograms, that would be 220 grams of protein! I didn't see how you could possibly eat that much in one meal, let alone in an eating window of 4 to 6 hours.

JEY100 Fri, Feb-26-21 17:07

For the real numbers on the macros I have actually eaten:
Today I caught up on my NO Masterclass "homework!" and updated my Macros and Nutrient Reports. Since Feb 6th, I average 110 grams of protein, which is 42% of calories. Average calories 1062. Fat macro is 40 % with a Nutrient Score of 76% (good for a beginner, not leaderboard worthy). I have not given calories a thought as I enter my meals...except my birthday :eek: so until now had no idea it was that low. The MC program focuses on nutrients, so I am eating more fish, chicken, egg whites!, less fatty beef, more vegetables, with that bomb of 0% yogurt, protein powder and berries.

Macros and Nutrient Scores are not anything to be concerned about in the DDF program, that is all about WHEN you eat, but these numbers have worked out for me in both DDF and now NO. The key to being able to eat this low amount of energy over the long term is having satiety from the nutrient dense food you do eat. I usually eat two meals about 5-6 hours apart. The data behind lowest calorie intake with two meals a day rather than OMAD is: https://optimisingnutrition.com/how...-you-eat-a-day/ Like all ideas in DDF, it is presented as a short lesson..you can delve into it or not, incorporate it, or not.
PS: Mark Sisson's new book to be published March 9th is titled, Two Meals a Day !

WHAT you eat is introduced about 10 days into DDF. There are General suggestions to consider upping protein by small amounts, protein earlier in the day, reducing carbs if post meal BG is still an issue, etc. but you can also sail through DDF only trying to determine the best Fasting window for you. Marty, like Dr Westman and Naiman, is not a fan of fasting longer than 24 hours.

BawdyWench Sat, Feb-27-21 07:19

Quote:
Originally Posted by JEY100
You might enjoy the interview with both Marty and Dr. Naiman..there was discussion of protein.

Marty has collected his Streamyard interviews so they are now on YouTube to watch. https://youtu.be/ilduzDTFUlQ


Janet, thanks so much for posting this. I finally got the time to watch it and thought it was brilliant. So many good, practical ideas. Time to unlearn certain things, which is so hard. I wish it were all settled once and for all, but that's never going to happen. We all just have to keep learning, keep our minds open, and GO FOR THE PROTEIN!

:lol:

I'm starting to re-think the composition of the 16/8 window (really striving for 18/6 and I'll get there eventually). I have my first protein-heavy meal around noon. Then I don't eat again until 6:00 pm. Sometimes I'm very hungry for dinner, other times not so much. Regardless, I still find it hard to get enough good protein in with just 2 meals, so I'm going to start having a small snack around 3:00 or 4:00. Some egg whites, some GY with collagen (or protein powder; I've heard this called "progurt"). This approach will enable me to bump up the protein just a bit, which might be exactly what I need. We'll see how that goes for a week or so.

The challenge officially starts next Saturday, and I'm itching to get started "for real."

GRB5111 Sat, Feb-27-21 10:37

Great thread and discussions. I'm learning a lot here. It took me some time to adapt to 2 meals a day, and I didn't do it on purpose, it just worked out that I was not hungry until around noon/ early afternoon and then again at around 5:30 - 6:00. Being fat adapted; yet, no longer chasing ketones means that I can go a long time without needing to eat if necessary. Helps on my frequent drives up to New England from Virginia to visit family and friends. No need to worry about food to eat during the drive. Very freeing.

BawdyWench Sat, Feb-27-21 10:40

Rob, I agree with you. I've worked from home for many years, but still had to go in to the office from time to time. Whenever I did, I never took lunch with me. Just such a hassle to get it ready in the morning. I'd get hungry around noon or 1:00, but if I kept busy, I could easily breeze past the hunger and wait until dinner.

JEY100 Mon, Mar-01-21 05:43

Yikes, 419 signed up for this DDF Challenge so far. Many of those Gin Stephens podcast followers are piling in. So many are starting already ;)

On the NO page the simple Happy Scale app was recommended, which I have used myself for 8-10 years. Then heard an old Gin Stephens podcast with its developer (who started over 300 pounds) and Gin mentioned she started fasting with the Dr Bert Herring Fast 5, published in 2013. I read that book when it came out...why didnít I stick with it??? :lol:
I am forever doing this! I saved the Gary Taubes 2002 article from the NYT magazine! So. Many. Others.

BawdyWench Mon, Mar-01-21 06:44

Last I looked, it was 250+ who had signed up for the challenge. How does this even work? Already I can't follow all the posts. Does Marty put up a post every morning, and then people discuss it? Is it instead (or in addition) a free-for-all?

So many have already started, you're right. It's probably to get them accustomed to the app, but OH MY GOODNESS all the questions on "where's the app?", "when will I get the workbook?", "how do I determine my trigger?", "when do I fast?", etc. And my favorite, "Which instrument do I need to measure trigger point? Do I have to prick my fingertip? If so, how many times?" :lol:

I get that people are excited, but people really should wait for the challenge to begin and THEN ask all these questions. I'm guilty of asking a couple questions, but it was because the app wasn't working correctly.

"Why didn't I stick with it?" How many times I've asked myself the same question! Sometimes I get very down thinking about when I started this journey 20+ years ago, I was 30 pounds lighter than I am now. How can I have lived a low-carb lifestyle for 20+ years, studied and learned from so many experts, and I'm in worse shape than when I started?

Today I'm going in for a colonoscopy (oh, the joys of aging!), so I had to fast totally yesterday. I probably won't eat anything today, either. At least it's giving me a head-start on DDF!

JEY100 Mon, Mar-01-21 07:20

Marty does put up a lesson each day, and for so many questions the admins and members will answer with "Read FAQ #x". Since I have another group to admin, I only jump in on interesting discussions. I try helping on the public DDF page but it got too crazy with those "what's that finger sticky thing" questions. Alex is starting his daily App videos, first one today at 4pm. They go above and beyond trying to help people!...everyone take a deep breath.

Oh, do have an enjoyable day. That procedure is always a highlight. ;) But cool that you had some fasting practice built into this week.

Our library e-book service had the Gin Stephens Fast Feast Repeat. I skimmed it last time, giving it a bit more attention now, esp a Chapter called "Diet Brain"...when you are so confused by all the conflicting diet info, much of it written by doctors. Her advice is to stop reading books with advice about food, but then she is famous for the "Clean Fast" advice...not one drop of calories or artificial sweeteners in your coffee or water. This is after Dr Naiman and Bernstein convinced me a diet soda once in a while wouldnít kill me and frankly, has helped me fast. :lol:

BawdyWench Tue, Mar-02-21 06:34

There's a post up now that asks whether we get to keep the app after the challenge, and Marty said only if you are an unlimited member. Guess I'll keep using the spreadsheet.

However, it appears that the values entered in one tab don't populate into the next tab so it looks like you have to constantly copy the values over or track them on multiple tabs.

Or, once you get to the Hunger Training, for example, do you change the "start" date to the date you start that phase? I suppose this, too, will be answered during the challenge. I just don't want to get too far behind in case I have to enter in multiple places.

JEY100 Tue, Mar-02-21 06:47

When I joined, DDF was $37, unlimited $74. I had already completed three months on my own and knew I would continue.

Iím not sure what you are asking, because the last tabs are for Eating Windows. I think you would leave your Hunger Training data on that tab, and start a new sheet with different columns, different focus.
The only number needed from Baselining is the Trigger that was calculated and it does carry over...or you can manually add whatever number you want.
When I used the Excel/Google sheet, I wrote over whatever the Tab start date was, and all dates in the column adjusted.
Not sure I answered the 🙋‍♀️

BawdyWench Tue, Mar-02-21 06:52

Looking at it again, it's only the waking BG that is repeated. I guess I just wanted everything to be on one sheet so I could track everything at once. See? There really is such a thing as a dumb question!

BawdyWench Wed, Mar-03-21 09:06

Have to say, I'm really enjoying this DDF journey. It's eye-opening to see how different foods affect my body, and that if I wait to eat until I deplete the glucose stores in my liver, good things happen. This morning I'm down a total of 7 pounds in the past 13 days since I started DDF. I'm thrilled and can't wait until we actually start on Saturday.

EDITED TO ADD that I found out this morning that all the video meetings will be recorded and available on the site. Good deal, since a lot of the starting times are not good for me.

BawdyWench Thu, Mar-04-21 06:18

I'm amazed at how much I'm learning about how my body handles foods. If I have a meal of just protein and minimal fat, my BG can actually go down. If I have some carbs, like a bit of rice on the side, it can go up 15 to 20 points. Black coffee can make it rise up to 20 points.

Yesterday a friend came over for "Wednesday Afternoon Happy Hour." We do this not every week, but often enough that it's a habit. We're relatively new friends and still learning about each other. Not the kind of close friend you tell your innermost feelings to, but who knows.

I knew I'd be making a snack, so made sure I had a protein-filled lunch of 4 oz ham with 3 HB egg whites, figuring that would lessen the amount of snacking.

The snack I made was a spinach dip containing Philly, ricotta, pimientos, dry vegetable soup mix, cheddar, and spinach. Really tasty, and I always have the leftover dip mixed in with scrambled eggs. I also put a medium bowl of half Triscuits and half pretzels for each of us. I ate around half of what I put out for me. Having the lunch before helped me rein in a bit.

Dinner was two 4 oz filet mignons.

This morning I was expecting my BG to be quite high due to the crackers/pretzels. Nope. It was 91. HOWEVER, my weight was up almost 2 pounds from the carbs (fluid retention)! I'll freeze that dip for another time and hide the crackers. They don't really call to me, so I should be fine.

So the other thing I learned is that I don't need as much food as I had been eating. In attempting to reach 130 g protein, I was eating huge lunches and dinners of basically protein. Last night I had the two small steaks, and realized one would have been plenty.

I'll focus on shooting for the 40% of protein, regardless of number of grams, but listening more closely to my hunger from now on.

Sorry for the long post.

JLx Thu, Mar-04-21 07:32

Thank you for the long post! :) I'm reading this board with great interest and really appreciate the real-life experience.

JEY100 Thu, Mar-04-21 10:18

Although the Bawdy Wench has already taken off on her fasting discovery tour, the program does not actually start until Saturday, so anyone still can join. https://www.datadrivenfasting.com/o...YwI6-seJWFNddjg The teaching videos, manuals, FAQs are all posted on the FB group page to catch up.

thud123 Thu, Mar-04-21 10:35

I'm joining. NO MC was a flop for me, Too much work but a good experience to see what others were doing and some of the foods folks were experimenting with. I'll take some of the ideas from there and mash up hybrid NODDF Nutrient Optimized Data Driven Fasting - hope to see you guys there - registering now and will do prep work before Sat.


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