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-   -   Marty Kendall's Data-Driven Fasting (http://forum.lowcarber.org/showthread.php?t=484792)

BawdyWench Sat, Apr-03-21 07:08

Thanks, Janet, for your experience with the meters. I love that other people also keep records from eons ago and compare progress and non-progress. My wedding night weight was 135 and I considered myself a fat cow who obviously doesn't deserve happiness. Sigh.

BUT, I just went back to stats from November 2020, and I'm down 11 pounds and 12 inches overall from that time. That made me feel much better.

OH!!! I just saw on the DDF Facebook page that some people are having wonky BG readings after getting the Covid vaccine. I had my first injection last Friday, and my numbers have been wonky all week. Could that be it? If so, that actually makes me feel better because at least I know that it's not something I'm doing (or not doing) and that it should resolve itself.

As for maintenance mode, I'm going to stick with my current trigger of 80 and just see how well I do. It's in my DNA that if I slack off, I end up throwing in the towel, so I won't do that this time. It's no big deal to take a couple readings daily, and if I want to have a celebration dinner or just loosen the reins for one meal of one day, I'll just roll with the numbers and ignore them as the distractions they are.

JEY100 Sat, Apr-03-21 07:22

I have seen quite a few mention BG rises after the vaccine, in the LC group as well. I didn't notice any difference either first or second dose. Only a minor side effect after the first shot, second dose nothing.

BawdyWench Sat, Apr-03-21 08:02

THIS is why crowd sourcing is so important. I wonder how diabetics are dealing with this. I'm just glad I have an answer.

BawdyWench Sun, Apr-04-21 07:50

I've been puzzling on this lately and could really use your brains (I promise to give them back afterward). I understand what Marty Kendall, Ted Naiman, and Eric Westman are saying about if you want to lose body fat, you need to cut down on dietary fat or you'll end up just burning the fat you're eating and not the fat you're storing.

That certainly makes sense, but how low in fat do you have to go? Kendall says to shoot for 40% protein and 15% carbs; that leaves 45% for fat. For most of March Iíve been averaging 900 calories with 110 grams protein, 21 grams carbs (no fiber deducted), and 45 grams of fat. The percentages are very close to what Kendall recommends (a bit lower in carbs and a bit higher in protein), but maybe 45 grams of fat and 900 calories are too low.

HOWEVER. Back when I was doing the Atkins plan and pretty much had the book memorized, Dr. Atkins said under no circumstances were you to try to do his low-carb plan without sufficient fat. He said it won't work. Back in the early 2000s, I remember that all the low-carb forums were filled with people trying to do a low-fat version of Atkins and others who kept warning them that it won't work as well. Quote from the 2002 book: ďI cannot stress strongly enough that trying to do a low-fat version of Atkins will interfere with fat burning and derail your weight loss.Ē

And hereís a quote from Dr. Eades in the original ďProtein PowerĒ book: ďYour body can and will use incoming dietary fat as fuel to burn to meet its energy needs Ö Keep an eye on your carbohydrate intakeódonít worry about counting fat grams.Ē Of course, in a footnote he also says, ďIf you are trying to lose weightóespecially if you are a small personóyou may have to curb your fat intake somewhat. Otherwise you may have too much food coming in, so your body wonít need to dip into your fat stores.Ē Sorry, but isnít the purpose of the entire book to teach you how to lose weight???

So, who's right?

How low is everyone going in terms of calories and fat grams?

I'm averaging 900 calories, 110 grams protein (48% of total calories), 21 grams carbs (no fiber deducted; 9% of calories), and 45 grams of fat (45% of calories). I'm eating lunch and dinner only, no snacking, and I'm not hungry between meals.

Calories too low? Fat too low?

GRB5111 Sun, Apr-04-21 08:38

Happy to share what I've learned and experienced in varying my consumption of fat. Short answer: I believe all are correct, that is Kendall, Naiman, Westman, and Eades. The thing I try to keep in mind is that we are all coming from different situations and trying to achieve common but differing goals with personal priorities. So, while I learn much from all here, I also have to put what I've learned in my personal context and learn from my experiences.

For me, I believe that the guidelines Atkins provides are accurate, but very general. For now, I like Eades' recommendations, as I do well with a certain amount of fat. Unlike some others, fat does give me satiety, but I don't overdo it. Fine tuning is where Westman and Naiman come in, as when I want to lose weight, I am much more conscious of the amount of fat I eat. I certainly never eat fat bombs or bulletproof coffee, so I am careful to eat only the fat that rides along with protein I eat. It's made a big difference.

Kendall and Naiman to a degree, are much more in the weeds where they are measuring and paying attention to macro ratios. I think this is very helpful to establish a benchmark or awareness of how we each need to eat personally, but it must be applied differently to each of us. Knowing that I'm not generally an "in the weeds" person after I learn something, I use their recommendations to develop guidelines for my healthy eating.

So, long winded, but back to fat. Fat is healthy if we eat the correct fats, but the keto craze is like fat consumption on steroids. Just like those supporting zero fat and risking good health, keto has gone the other way, and I believe many are reacting to these extremes. Would some consider the amount of fat I eat to be too much? Yes, if you're coming from a low-fat approach. No, if you're coming from a distorted keto approach where people eat fat to reduce their protein needs for fear of over-consuming it and triggering the dreaded gluconeogenesis. Bikman has strongly refuted this dynamic for those eating low carb.

Over the past year, I examined my fat consumption, and eliminated all fats not attached to the foods I eat with the exception of olive oil, butter, and very occasional HWC to add for flavor. For me, this is the best approach without measuring and pursuing a constant "in the weeds" approach.

BawdyWench Sun, Apr-04-21 08:50

Thanks for the thoughtful response. I agree with you. While on Atkins and Protein Power long ago, I ate a lot more fat than I have on this Challenge. I'd have eggs scrambled in lots of butter with cheese along with bacon on the side for breakfast. A snack might be a half cup of blackberries swimming in a half cup of heavy cream; or, Philly with heavy cream, peanut butter, and a bit of sweetener. Dinner might be a steak or pork or chicken, usually topped with just butter or with a cream-based sauce. (I was never a Bulletproof Coffee or fat bombs kind of person.) I remember shooting for about 62% fat.

I lost weight like crazy then. Granted, that was 20 years ago.

In this challenge, I'm so afraid of getting the fat too high that I won't even eat eggs because there's a lot of fat in eggs, and I certainly wouldn't add cheese. Also, for the most part, I'm eating only lean meats -- heavy on the chicken breasts, pork tenderloin, 90% lean ground beef -- and not adding fat.

I lost 7 pounds in the first 2 weeks of the challenge, and only 1 more pound in the more than 4 weeks that followed. It just seems like I should be losing a bit better on 900 calories and very low fat intake.

Guess I'm looking for that happy medium.

BawdyWench Wed, Apr-07-21 05:06

I've decided to restart baseline again. Not looking forward to finger pricks before and after each meal/snack for several days, but maybe it's for the best. A few days ago I decided to increase calories from 900 to 1300, keep the protein the same (around 105), and increase fat and carbs slightly. If my goal had been to gain 3 pounds in as many days, I was wildly successful.

thud123 Wed, Apr-07-21 11:04

Loving DDF Maint so far!

Tested new Contour Next One agains KetoMojo v2 this morning. Anyone want a KetoMojo when I'm done with the strips?

Code:
Meter S1 S2 S3 ======================================= Keto Mojo v2 105 91 87 Contour Next One 93 93 89 Note: units mg/dL Note: 3 Samples take from same lancing, blood wiped with clean cloth each time

BawdyWench Wed, Apr-07-21 11:18

Yeah, I'm thinking the same drop of blood should not give a reading of both 105 and 87. At least the Contour One is closer in the range. Based on comments I've read on the FB page, no one thinks the Keto Mojo is worth getting.

GRB5111 Wed, Apr-07-21 15:25

Quote:
Originally Posted by thud123
Loving DDF Maint so far!

Tested new Contour Next One agains KetoMojo v2 this morning. Anyone want a KetoMojo when I'm done with the strips?

Code:
Meter S1 S2 S3 ======================================= Keto Mojo v2 105 91 87 Contour Next One 93 93 89 Note: units mg/dL Note: 3 Samples take from same lancing, blood wiped with clean cloth each time

Hah! Two out of three isn't bad . . . . . . . . . but that first one . . . :bash:

Haven't started my baseline exercise yet, but as mentioned, I plan to test the old and new Keto Mojo. I just received 240 glucose strips for the v2. Maybe I'll use them for tiny wallpaper strips or a medical-themed backsplash to serve as a reminder . . .

JEY100 Sat, Apr-10-21 03:15

A massive overhaul, organization into sections, and general "buffing up" of the DDF manual. Posted on the Optimising Nutrition website, the first section: What makes DDF different?

https://optimisingnutrition.com/wha...nt-faq-part-1-2

BawdyWench Sat, Apr-10-21 06:12

Thanks for posting that, Janet! Good improvements. When Marty first posted it, none of the hyperlinks worked and the link to the Navy Body Fat Calculator was giving errors. They fixed all that and re-posted an updated manual.

I decided to start with a new baseline to reset my trigger, so I reset everything the other day and got myself ready for 3 days of finger sticks. Turns out I got busy and didn't always take the readings -- in fact, I took none yesterday. Despite missing an entire day of readings, this morning it said I was done with baselining and got a trigger of 97 (at the end of the March challenge my trigger was 80). I'm now in hunger training again.

Iceberg Sat, Apr-10-21 08:38

I just discovered this thread. Iíve signed up for the 17 Apr challenge.

Iím going to go read all your posts and hope it answers some of my questions.

diane

thud123 Sat, Apr-10-21 08:48

You'll have a good time Iceberg - it's a little overwhelming and confusing at first but you'll get the hang of it by the end of the session haha! I'm going for another round as I signed up for unlimited. I'd like to get my BMI to 24.9 and see what my body fat is at that point - that's one of my "Why's" that you write down.

PS, I think I topped the chart on the percent bodyweight change unless there's someone with my name - lol - all water weight but the fat is starting to slowly get used up now, I can really tell.

Hoping I don't get BG too low during maintenance mode and binge on donuts. I notice that when my BG get's low (for me, into the 70's) I start to think about junk food, and sometimes in the past I have acted on that impulse. I likely will again but know i have a better clue where those thoughts might be coming from, not some distant memory of childhood trauma or something, it might be the BG dummy!

I'm going to re-base line when the time comes Apr 17 - i'm already getting all the re-reading and workbook started. I'll also review the manual and keep up with the guides - I've seen it all before but practice makes for better visceral understanding for me.

BawdyWench Sat, Apr-10-21 09:11

Wow! Congrats, Thud! Or should I call you Eric? That's an amazing amount of weight to lose in a month, and it's NOT all water weight.

I don't think I'll be as anal in checking Done on all the reading and daily posts. I'll again read it as it comes, but if I fall behind, no biggie.

Earlier in the year before the challenge, hubby brought home 4 large coffee rolls from Dunkin' Donuts. I was checking BG at the time, thinking about joining a future challenge, but then didn't. So, I took a reading before the coffee roll and it was something like 95. Then I took it again an hour later and it was 134! That's enough to keep you from indulging again.

Iceberg Sat, Apr-10-21 13:03

I started doing baseline 1 Apr. I try to eat below my BG but Iíve changed monitors and now my BG is higher...sigh.

I have dropped 3 pounds and I have no idea how? Will they help us determine the macros? I only signed up for one session, but maybe Iíll just upgrade to unlimited.

Hope I donít drive you all nuts hanging out here, but I want and need to lose fat and weight.

diane

JEY100 Sat, Apr-10-21 18:23

Thud...Each time I saw the leaderboards yesterday, I would wonder...who is Eric? A real dark horse, he never posted! Just when we got use to you as Undule :lol: Amazing success, and on Fat Loss leaderboard too..so it's not water weight.

I am not on any leaderboard under any of my names so donít bother looking. This time, perfectly average 4 more pounds, and quite happy with that outcome :)

Welcome Diane! :wave: More the merrier. The DDF Manual...you should have that downloaded to overview ...has an entire section on WHAT to eat. The manual was totally rearranged into logical sections this challenge..so much better. You donít have to read it all now, but check topics of interest. As I wrote earlier in this thread, Dr Ted Naiman is an advisor to ON, and you are welcome to follow ANY diet, but his P:E ratio influences the general what to eat guidelines. I used the https://www.lowenergydiet.com/Tips.html version of it and bumbled along following the photos :lol:

You can use this calculator as a general guideline for macros, but lots of leeway when you figure out your meals and timing. https://optimisingnutrition.com/macro-calculator

thud123 Sun, Apr-11-21 08:17

I'm not sure why he used it, i told him Undule is my nom de guerre on Facebook and the one I post with so - hmph, he used the name on the email of the graph I sent him. Oh well, hopefully that amount of loss will not happen again as it only comes from being packed with water from eating like shit for a week or more.

Maint level now is good, easy to get 2 meals a day in, making my first meal a bit smaller to allow more on second. Waking BG continues to be under 100.

I had an interesting measurement after being out on the water in cold weather for hours - 66mg/dL and the meter said "hypo" I felt fine but was hungry, took shoved another stick in the meter and measured again with the same blood hole in my finger; 75mg/dL

I was not feeling shaky or anything, i never have experienced that but i was thinking about donuts! I stopped at a country butcher type place on the way home and got some smoked ham and pickles to eat on the drive home, then continue meal with some brats and kraut - and I only at 2 of the 4 - about 1/2 lb - normally I don't stop but thought i'd give it a go and see how i felt after putting the fork down for a while. Plus it was getting closer to bed time so I didn't want to botch my morning BG.

Anyway, Maint is fun!

GRB5111 Sun, Apr-11-21 12:38

Quote:
Originally Posted by thud123
You'll have a good time Iceberg - it's a little overwhelming and confusing at first but you'll get the hang of it by the end of the session haha! I'm going for another round as I signed up for unlimited. I'd like to get my BMI to 24.9 and see what my body fat is at that point - that's one of my "Why's" that you write down.

PS, I think I topped the chart on the percent bodyweight change unless there's someone with my name - lol - all water weight but the fat is starting to slowly get used up now, I can really tell.

Hoping I don't get BG too low during maintenance mode and binge on donuts. I notice that when my BG get's low (for me, into the 70's) I start to think about junk food, and sometimes in the past I have acted on that impulse. I likely will again but know i have a better clue where those thoughts might be coming from, not some distant memory of childhood trauma or something, it might be the BG dummy!

I'm going to re-base line when the time comes Apr 17 - i'm already getting all the re-reading and workbook started. I'll also review the manual and keep up with the guides - I've seen it all before but practice makes for better visceral understanding for me.

Good results. I'm convinced DDF is sound and provides feedback in the form of BG readings that people can use to eat or not. That's really what it comes down to, and I'll eat as much as I want from healthy protein, veggies, limited fat, and occasionally add a small amount of dairy, but when I'm eating this way, the other critically important element is when I eat. These two factors are making all the difference.

I agree with Bawdy, it's not all water weight and being able to see, feel, and experience the results confirms you're on the right path. That BMI goal is in your sights.

I'll start DDF on 17 April as well with my self-managed (non FB) approach) by sharing progress here as my primary social medium.

GRB5111 Sun, Apr-11-21 13:08

Quote:
Originally Posted by JEY100
A massive overhaul, organization into sections, and general "buffing up" of the DDF manual. Posted on the Optimising Nutrition website, the first section: What makes DDF different?

https://optimisingnutrition.com/wha...nt-faq-part-1-2

Janet, this is a much better presentation due to the improved organization. Thanks for the link.

Iceberg Sun, Apr-11-21 19:45

I had printed out the previous version of the handbook, so will reprint and re-read...glad Iím now retired so I have the time.

I bought the contour monitor and my readings are now more like pre-diabetes. So Iíll do my best for this week in eating below my trigger, but Iím sure Iíll have to do my baseline again.

I love this type forum for support as Iím not very familiar with FB.

Diane

Iceberg Mon, Apr-12-21 10:02

Do vitamins and supplements affect BG? Anyone know? Would they cause us to break a fast? Iím extremely low in D3 and take large doses. I also take O3, a multivitamin, vitamin C, B complex and calcium and magnesium.

d

thud123 Mon, Apr-12-21 11:00

Iceberg

Vitamins, Supplements affect BG - I have no idea

Just practice with the monitor I wouldn't start messing around with trying the program just yet. I'd suggests re-baseline on Day One and follow along, things will unfold from there as far as what to do and when to end and go into maintenance, pause or continue working with trigger.

Relax and have fun.

Iceberg Mon, Apr-12-21 16:51

Quote:
Originally Posted by thud123
Iceberg

Relax and have fun.


I'll try... :lol:

JEY100 Mon, Apr-12-21 17:36

Never gave supplements a thought. I will continue to take them regardless of impact on BG, so it didnít matter. I also take therapeutic levels of Vit D, and was popping extra this winter due Covid stories...Friday my blood test came back at 100! OK, time to back off :lol: my doctor is happy with 50-100, but I overdid this winter.

I first realized my Vit D levels had finally improved after about nine months on LC/Paleo...switch to natural fats, no processed seed oils like corn or vegetable...but coconut, avocado, lard, etc. and took high levels of Vit D 3 gelcap supplements. Not that prescription Vit D 2..useless.

Good long standing Vit D thread: https://forum.lowcarber.org/showthread.php?t=396439

Ambulo Mon, Apr-12-21 23:21

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iceberg
Do vitamins and supplements affect BG? Anyone know? Would they cause us to break a fast? Iím extremely low in D3 and take large doses. I also take O3, a multivitamin, vitamin C, B complex and calcium and magnesium.

d


I have been doing old-fashioned by-the-clock fasting for years and the advice on my fasting group is that anything prescribed must be taken as instructed, whether in the fast or with a meal; whereas anything elective should be taken with a meal unless it specifically says on the bottle that it must be taken on an empty stomach.

Though it would be interesting to know the result of anyone does test say, a vitamin D capsule.

thud123 Tue, Apr-13-21 06:59

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ambulo
I have been doing old-fashioned by-the-clock fasting for years and the advice on my fasting group is that anything prescribed must be taken as instructed, whether in the fast or with a meal; whereas anything elective should be taken with a meal unless it specifically says on the bottle that it must be taken on an empty stomach.

Though it would be interesting to know the result of anyone does test say, a vitamin D capsule.

I'd guess any change would be lost in the noise of +- 15% glucose meter wavering. Not worth chasing that for me. I do take some basic daily supplements with meals: mag, D, K (winter) and multi

GRB5111 Tue, Apr-13-21 07:37

Quote:
Originally Posted by JEY100
Never gave supplements a thought. I will continue to take them regardless of impact on BG, so it didnít matter. I also take therapeutic levels of Vit D, and was popping extra this winter due Covid stories...Friday my blood test came back at 100! OK, time to back off :lol: my doctor is happy with 50-100, but I overdid this winter.


Quote:
Originally Posted by thud123
I'd guess any change would be lost in the noise of +- 15% glucose meter wavering. Not worth chasing that for me. I do take some basic daily supplements with meals: mag, D, K (winter) and multi

I agree. Matter of fact, I gradually started some supplements after having been on low carb for a few years while reducing BG levels. I'm convinced the supplements I take have no bearing or influence on my BG readings. The supplements I currently take are magnesium, D3, and K2.

Also, IF or time-restricted eating works to lower BG as long as you're controlling what you're consuming during your eating windows. It's proven and works very consistently for humans.

JEY100 Thu, Apr-15-21 10:07

How is maintenance going for you? I decided to pause completely, no finger pricks, back on that naughty wine with dinner, some dark chocolate and yet I was only up a pound this morning. :confused: Iíll take it! I am fasting until 11-noon, so maybe the days total is balanced by less intake of the bad things.

910 people signed up so far for the Challenge that starts Saturday. :eek:

Marty knows I Admin another FB group and asked me to moderate in this challenge. It's a fun group, but now I feel compelled to crank out some more progress, break 160 or bust :lol:

GRB5111 Thu, Apr-15-21 15:55

Marty knows how to choose good people. Sounds like a great group.


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