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-   -   Marty Kendall's Data-Driven Fasting (http://forum.lowcarber.org/showthread.php?t=484792)

wbahn Mon, Mar-29-21 09:35

I can usually tell when my sugars are WAY low, but not always. Sometimes I'm sure they are crashing and when I check they are either right where I would like them to be or at times they are actually WAY high. Other than that, I have no feel for what they are. I almost always try to guess what they will be when I take a measurement and me best results (and those are still very hit and miss) are when I base the guess on what I've done and what I've taken over the past day or two and not on how I feel at the moment.

JEY100 Mon, Mar-29-21 09:52

Quote:
Originally Posted by BawdyWench
Hey, just trying to help!

Janet, have you found that you can predict your BG level based on hunger or other cues? I sure can't. My waking BG was 100 today, and now (at 10:30 am) I'm pretty darn hungry so I took it again. Just 96. I'll wait another hour or so, but I was SURE the number would be in the 80s.


Not reliably, but as I wrote once before, it almost seems time dependent for me. Noon will hit my trigger, not often before. Which reminds me of Dr. Fung, saying hunger comes in waves..and you are usually hungry when it was regular time to eat a meal.

BawdyWench Mon, Mar-29-21 10:04

I also find that my reading can differ dramatically depending on which finger I use. Pricking my little finger on my left hand just gave me 101. When I pricked my middle finger on my left hand, it was 91.

BawdyWench Mon, Mar-29-21 14:12

For those who are continuing on to the next challenge, do you plan to start your baseline again, or simply carry on with where you are now?

JEY100 Tue, Mar-30-21 04:41

It depends...do you want to continue losing weight? Stay with trigger through break and into next challenge. Do you need a break for pricking finger and a mental breather? Take a break and restart trigger. My results over Christmas/NewYears are, as you say, "not a shining example, so let me serve as a horrible warning" :lol:

Another low this morning, but I am eating squeaky clean this week, have both annual oncology bloodwork AND end of challenge ahead. Since I know I usually hit my trigger around noon, when I did take a break, I kept to two meals a day in a 6 hour window. (Squeaky clean means no wine with dinner :o )

BawdyWench Tue, Mar-30-21 06:31

Janet, you can quote me anytime!

I definitely want to keep losing weight, and I'm on a roll with this approach so it's not a good idea to take a break. I'll stay the course.

Yesterday I had just one meal, lunch, and had a 7 oz piece of leftover meatloaf with 2 pats of butter. Nothing else. The meatloaf didn't sit well with me for some reason and I didn't feel like eating. Still not hungry. And today I'm finally back down to 192.2, which is my lowest for this round. I had hit that number once about 10 days ago, but immediately bounced back up. Hoping to finally break through this setpoint soon.

I hear you about the wine with dinner. I like a couple glasses of wine or a whiskey, and I'm sure it would make a difference in my losses (though several times I've gone without alcohol for months at a stretch with no weight loss). Starting tonight I'll be abstaining for a while to see if it makes a difference.

I was feeling pretty low about not losing more weight this challenge, but then I was reading some of the posts and some people have lost only 2 or 3 pounds or nothing at all. Note to self: Don't compare yourself to others.

thud123 Tue, Mar-30-21 08:06

Quote:
Originally Posted by wbahn
I can usually tell when my sugars are WAY low, but not always. Sometimes I'm sure they are crashing and when I check they are either right where I would like them to be or at times they are actually WAY high. Other than that, I have no feel for what they are. I almost always try to guess what they will be when I take a measurement and me best results (and those are still very hit and miss) are when I base the guess on what I've done and what I've taken over the past day or two and not on how I feel at the moment.

That's a very interesting practical observation. If you were to ask me to guess mine prior to this experiment with DDF I couldn't have. I could only tell you if I was VERY hungry. For me it's turning out subtler than that - more like when i first, out of the blue, think, i'm KINDA hungry - I sit with that feeling for a bit, if I feel like eating, i'll guess then measure. I'm getting better at it and trying to connect the hungry feeling with eating, and then not eating too much if I want to have a chance at a second meal, prioritizing protein and varsity of LC vegetables for first meal in case I don't eat a second.

fun stuff, except all the needle work ;)

thud123 Tue, Mar-30-21 08:12

Quote:
Originally Posted by BawdyWench
For those who are continuing on to the next challenge, do you plan to start your baseline again, or simply carry on with where you are now?

baseline for me for sure as you'll use your appetite as guide to eat for 3 days and see where you land. That's the whole point I think, the end game - to find that you eat to appetite (am I hungry?), stop when full (i'm getting better at this as I'm getting a better handle on how much food it takes for me per day roughly - i've put food back into the fridge, never done that before, or rarely) and concentrate on getting the most bang for your buck nutritionally in that food.

Keeping the food non-exciting is working out for me as well. Knowing that that my hunger will be satisfied an hour after I finish those two chicken breasts is a comfort. I have to learn to put down the fork and wait a bit.

GRB5111 Tue, Mar-30-21 08:42

Quote:
Originally Posted by BawdyWench
For those who are continuing on to the next challenge, do you plan to start your baseline again, or simply carry on with where you are now?

I'm ready to start the self-paced program after purchasing the unlimited package with all the information and tools. Didn't know it existed until I inquired, as I presumed it was the challenge requiring a FB presence.

That being said, I did the baseline back in January, so I'll baseline again starting April 1st (yeah, very appropriate . . . ), as I want to capture the data for this go 'round. I think doing the baseline exercise is useful if you're using it periodically like I plan to do. The combination of DDF with a P:E eating strategy gives me a reality check enabling me to stay the course or reduce if I feel the need.

That being said, if I were doing back-to-back or continuous challenges, I likely would continue to manage my numbers without doing the baseline again.

GRB5111 Tue, Mar-30-21 08:46

Quote:
Originally Posted by thud123
Keeping the food non-exciting is working out for me as well. Knowing that that my hunger will be satisfied an hour after I finish those two chicken breasts is a comfort. I have to learn to put down the fork and wait a bit.

That's an important observation and good piece of advice.

BawdyWench Tue, Mar-30-21 08:57

My meals are also very basic, nothing too fancy. I'm finding that food fills me up so much more now that I'm focusing on protein. Lunch is often 6 oz ham sauteed in a little butter and if I'm still hungry, I'll have a cup of 0% Greek yogurt and sometimes a couple berries (like less than 2 oz). That fills me up until dinner at around 6:30, when I have another 6 - 8 oz of protein and maybe something on the side.

I asked this question on the FB page, and Marty said this:
Quote:
If it's getting hard [to get down to your trigger], take a break and enjoy maintenance for a while before restarting baselining to go again. If it's still REALLY easy, then keep on chasing your trigger. Keep in mind, slow and steady wins the race and the trigger only goes down during hunger training, not up.


In another place on the page it says that if you switch from Hunger Training to Maintenance in the app, it automatically adjusts your trigger up about 10 points to make it easier to meet for however long you want to stay in maintenance. No, I'd rather continue doing what I'm doing as it's fairly easy to do. I don't always get down under my trigger, but I will eat if I'm within a couple points of it. If I'm still 10 points away from the trigger, I wait at least an hour before eating.

JEY100 Wed, Mar-31-21 07:41

First step for the Facebook adverse crowd.

Alex wrote: Now you can pay for a self paced program which doesn't involve FB. The reason behind using a community around it is to answer questions that people have. The concept is novel and some people have a hard time letting go eating according to traditional methods of fasting.

Then "Gin was generous to us to put DDF as a part of her new community."

So this is Gin Stephens "Delay, Donít Deny Community " group and she offers some 100! different groups to join.


https://dddsocialnetwork.com/?fbcli...KLamI-j3vhIjnGA

JLx Wed, Mar-31-21 13:19

Under "About Us" on this site, it says:

*Knowledge. Ask questions in a safe space with other intermittent fasters who embrace the clean fast.

What is meant by "the clean fast"?

GRB5111 Wed, Mar-31-21 13:38

Quote:
Originally Posted by JEY100
First step for the Facebook adverse crowd.

Alex wrote: Now you can pay for a self paced program which doesn't involve FB. The reason behind using a community around it is to answer questions that people have. The concept is novel and some people have a hard time letting go eating according to traditional methods of fasting.

Then "Gin was generous to us to put DDF as a part of her new community."

So this is Gin Stephens "Delay, Donít Deny Community " group and she offers some 100! different groups to join.


https://dddsocialnetwork.com/?fbcli...KLamI-j3vhIjnGA

Thanks, Janet. Glad I contacted MartyAlex to do the self-paced, as I'm a radical, possibly serial (not cereal) FB denier . . . .

What was the Groucho Marx line? "I refuse to join any club that would have me as a member . . . ."

JEY100 Wed, Mar-31-21 16:17

:lol: Here are more clubs you may not wish to join....

DDF is over. What's Next?

In the usual Marty style...a 14 page document of suggestions!

https://docs.google.com/document/d/...=h.4m8uj4jkcico

JEY100 Wed, Mar-31-21 16:26

Quote:
Originally Posted by JLx
Under "About Us" on this site, it says:

*Knowledge. Ask questions in a safe space with other intermittent fasters who embrace the clean fast.

What is meant by "the clean fast"?


Gin Stephens didnít emphasize a clean fast in her first book, but she has since decided the key to her success and for her thousands of followers is NOTHING except water, black coffee or tea when fasting. Not a 10 calorie splash of milk, sprinkle of sweetener, a drop of oil. Many of her success stories claim their key to nirvana was a Clean Fast.
Color me skeptical...I use a splash of Nutpod and sweetener, about 20 cal in my coffee, and do 18 hours with no problem.

https://www.ginstephens.com/all-blo...gory/clean-fast

Ambulo Thu, Apr-01-21 01:00

To pick some nits: 😁

Gin Stephens promoted the clean fast on her first Facebook group, One Meal a Day. Which was founded four or five years ago and I was one of the first few hundred members. She definitely discussed it in her first book "Delay, Don't Deny".

I started fasting years before this, in 2013, so I too didn't clean fast, but I avoided calories and only transgressed as far as flavoured teas 😁. So I know you can lose weight without sticking to clean fasting. I have however found it easier to fast longer by doing so, and nowadays I am also very much about the autophagy.

JLx Thu, Apr-01-21 06:12

I figured that was it, but I don't like tea without a generous splash of lemon.

BawdyWench Thu, Apr-01-21 06:29

Rules, rules, rules. I get so tired of rules and if you don't follow each and every rule you're "not doing it right" and you get your hand slapped by the purists. There's more than one way to get the job done. Just sayin'.

JLx Thu, Apr-01-21 08:26

True. I remember when Dr. Fung allowed chia seeds, a little cream or milk in coffee, lemon in tea, etc. during fasting.

I also remember "black rice" being on his food list , which enabled me to discover something new - turns out I love it and if you're going to eat rice, it's very nutritious. And I also cool/freeze it too to enable some resistant starch after I cook it with some coconut oil. I don't know if that experiment that supposedly reduced carbs/calories was ever repeated, but I do it anyway, just in case.

BawdyWench Fri, Apr-02-21 07:31

So this is strange. Yesterday I didn't feel all that well, had an upset tummy all day long and didn't feel like eating. I had some water, a diet ginger ale, and finally 5 Ritz crackers mid-afternoon in an attempt to calm the tummy (a couple crackers usually does it for me). Then for dinner I had less than 4 oz steak.

This morning I took my waking BG and it was 110. Huh? After 13 hours of not eating? Whatever, so I had my usual black coffee but added 1 scoop of collagen peptides.

My tummy was still a bit upset a couple hours later, so I decided to have some 0% Greek yogurt, but took my BG again before I went to the fridge. Now it's 114. This was almost 16 hours after eating last. Could the collagen have bumped it up that much? I've had days when just black coffee alone has bumped it up 10 or 15 points, but I've also had days when just black coffee made no difference at all.

My waking BG has been averaging in the mid-90s, and my trigger is 80.

Think it's just an anomaly due to the sour stomach?

thud123 Fri, Apr-02-21 07:51

If you're really curious get 3 data points from the same drop of blood or finger - who knows what mysteries await us.

GRB5111 Fri, Apr-02-21 08:30

Quote:
Originally Posted by BawdyWench
So this is strange. Yesterday I didn't feel all that well, had an upset tummy all day long and didn't feel like eating. I had some water, a diet ginger ale, and finally 5 Ritz crackers mid-afternoon in an attempt to calm the tummy (a couple crackers usually does it for me). Then for dinner I had less than 4 oz steak.

This morning I took my waking BG and it was 110. Huh? After 13 hours of not eating? Whatever, so I had my usual black coffee but added 1 scoop of collagen peptides.

My tummy was still a bit upset a couple hours later, so I decided to have some 0% Greek yogurt, but took my BG again before I went to the fridge. Now it's 114. This was almost 16 hours after eating last. Could the collagen have bumped it up that much? I've had days when just black coffee alone has bumped it up 10 or 15 points, but I've also had days when just black coffee made no difference at all.

My waking BG has been averaging in the mid-90s, and my trigger is 80.

Think it's just an anomaly due to the sour stomach?

I've had similar experiences after some different additions to my food and/or not getting enough sleep. One thing you can do is go back to what you were consuming when you had consistent BG readings in the mid 90s, and then try the collagen in the coffee after your readings have normalized a few days later to see if that was the culprit. It could be many factors including Thud's reference to data points. Some (I'm finding many) meters must have total consistency in getting a reliable measurement from prepping the skin, to amount of blood, to the phase of the moon, to Tom Brady back in New England, . . . and on . . . .

BawdyWench Fri, Apr-02-21 08:51

Yes, phases of the moon and planets being out of alignment are high on the list of things that have affected me.

How do real diabetics who need reliable readings do so with these meters? Mine is a Precision Xtra, not sure how old but probably 7 or 8 years old.

My best readings are from the middle finger of my left hand, and only when the drop of blood is HUGE. If it's a little scanty, the reading will be higher. It's also higher with any other finger on my left hand. I actually have bruises on the pad of the middle finger because of all the pokes.

I've had the collagen with yogurt almost every day for the past 5 weeks. Early on when I was testing before and after every snack/meal, I found that the yogurt with collagen usually made BG go down by 5 to 15 points.

Nothing to do but keep on keeping on. I'll start my normal foods and routine again today and just watch it. It should resolve itself over time. At least I finally broke the 7-pound loss hurdle and got to 8 pounds lost.

GRB5111 Fri, Apr-02-21 09:00

The Precision Xtra is one of the meters in my "collection." It was ok for ketones but the strips were ridiculously expensive back a few years ago to the point where I ordered ketone strips from a farm supply company (I kid you not!) that were exactly the same but intended for cows at a much lower price.

When I tried measuring glucose, I found the Xtra all over the map, so I ordered another glucose meter at the time recommended by Dr. Bernstein. Then, I ordered the Keto Mojo (still measuring ketones) and found it very consistent with glucose, more so than my other meters. Go figure . . .

Now I have an "upgraded" meter from Keto Mojo with glucose strips, only, so I'm in the process of testing it. Time will tell. Yes, very annoying they can't get these to at least be consistent on the same drop of blood.

BawdyWench Fri, Apr-02-21 09:48

The last time I ordered strips for the Precision Xtra, it was $54.99 for 2 boxes of 100 each (Amazon). That's the cheapest I've found. I think the time before that it was around $50 for 100 strips.

EDITED TO ADD: It's almost noon here and I'm thinking about having something to eat so I took a reading. Middle finger left hand: 125. Immediately took another reading from index finger left hand: 103.

This is nuts. I'll continue monitoring waking and before-lunch values, but am definitely not recording these absurd readings.

Just found my original order for the meter. It was October 2012. I wonder if it's time to purchase a new one. Thoughts?

thud123 Fri, Apr-02-21 10:04

I just ordered a Contour Next One - Strips are ~.33 - I'll report on it. I'm guessing it will be similar.

This is a guess, but I wonder if diabetics need to really worry about -+15% when we're testing in such a narrow band (trying to get just below trigger consistently. I think the meters do a fine job if you need to know if you're WAY high or WAY low

Way "high", I might experiemnt with that to see how high I can get my BG after eating straight sugar/candy durning the break between sessions. I can't really tell what "high" feels like as mine has not gone over 105 this session - and that was walking BG

I'm starting to get better and guessing and feeling it get a "little" low (not dangerously low like a diabetic might be looking for?) - then I decide to eat or not.

A game of small numbers and averages over time. Any meter should work for trends as long as you're not trying to hard to game the meter itself.

Any diabetics here care to comment on BG meters, accuracy and how and when you use them? There was some talk on the DDF fourm that CGM's tend to read low - but they show trends nicely, even the interesting trend that you BG may rise before you even eat a meal in anticipation - I wonder if that's a good reason not to use NAS either - Carly Simon said it best.

who really knows tho, I don't.

thud123 Fri, Apr-02-21 10:05

Quote:
Originally Posted by BawdyWench
The last time I ordered strips for the Precision Xtra, it was $54.99 for 2 boxes of 100 each (Amazon). That's the cheapest I've found. I think the time before that it was around $50 for 100 strips.

EDITED TO ADD: It's almost noon here and I'm thinking about having something to eat so I took a reading. Middle finger left hand: 125. Immediately took another reading from index finger left hand: 103.

This is nuts. I'll continue monitoring waking and before-lunch values, but am definitely not recording these absurd readings.

Just found my original order for the meter. It was October 2012. I wonder if it's time to purchase a new one. Thoughts?

I'd think the meters are fine over time, it's the strips and technique that concern me when getting weird results one and a while.

Roll with it, maybe get some new strips if you have not for DDF next round :)

BawdyWench Fri, Apr-02-21 10:13

You're probably right. There's no way my REAL reading would be 125. Should be in the 80s based on what I've eaten (or, rather, not eaten) yesterday and today. The strips are new, and they are good into June 2022.

OK, the healthy attitude to take is to not stress about it. Eat what and how much and when, as I've done for the past 5 weeks and see where that takes me.

Thanks for the dose of reality.

JEY100 Sat, Apr-03-21 04:29

The time I tested Metene, True and Contour Next together against the lab blood draw, they were clustered close together. Now the Contour seems to be "more right, more of the time" than the True..which does bounce around using the same drop of blood. :confused: I often use those two, the True strips are only $15 for 100. I think going forward when the True runs out just use the Contour, the strips are reasonable $25 for 70, and not obsess about BG (which I have been doing more than 6 months already :lol: ). In a week, Iíll also know what Thursday's blood draw showed about accuracy.

I am ending DDF today, heading out later to have an early Easter with DD in a lovely restaurant! Like "normal" people. :lol: I am at a lower weight since ending visits at the Duke Keto clinic. Also pulled out old Weight Watchers cards and much lower than those weights. That was a trip down (bad) memory lane.
I will probably change my goal here back to 160, and if get crazy through the summer pool season...push it to "wedding weight" of 154. (My first ever round of Weight Watchers) though I never thought to make that a goal that back in August when I started DDF.


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