The importance of fat for carb sensitive people
 

Today, a few things I've observed are leading me to suspect that dietary fat is a lot more important than even some of us LCers realize.
I propose, when it comes to controlling this carb sensitivity, making sure your metabolism is burning enough fat (via caloric restriction and/or diet) is just as significant as not eating too many carbohydrates.

Let me give my personal anecdotal experience.
My metabolism (blood sugar/insulin) is really, really screwy. The only sure fire way I know to keep it stable and feel "normal" is to eat almost no carb, high fat diet or to eat very little food. Unfortunately, these options also leave me bereft of energy. As a result I tend to waver in between eating more (but feeling unstable sugar often), and under eating (but feeling cold/tired/weak).

Today I did something I don't normally do.
I ate almost nothing all day. The day before I ate well enough food that my body can easily "keep running" without a pick-me-up.
For dinner, I had a large calorie meal that was extremely high fat, and not too-high carb. After eating this meal, I noticed I felt extremely warm and alive. I was sweating and my fingers were warm! Even more interesting was that this meal did not trigger any hyperinsulinemic symptoms. Normally after meals, especially large ones, I just get hungrier, and I feel colder (at least at first)... signs that my energy is actually being messed up not increased. It is just flowing through me in a way that hasn't in such a long time. Granted I did eat a lot yesterday which surely helped give my hormones a "shot in the arm" to make energy. But, the majority of this feeling came after eating the very fatty meal; before it I felt my usual cold & lethargic self when not eating.

This meal was different from my usual meals in that it contained a huge amount of fat. It had full fat blue cheese dressing, and deep fried chicken wing segments. The only carbs were a salad of romaine lettuce which had a lot of the blue cheese dressing.
Now, a normal dinner for me is more like a few ounces of leaner protein (lots of protein), with a ton of veggies that have very little fat. Calories are slightly less, but fat content is much lower and protein much higher. Carb content is about similar.

I've also known (suspected) that the more lean protein I eat, the WORSE my metabolism seems to be. It's like this slow build to the point where it feels like I'm on carbs. On occasion I even felt vivid hypo symptoms a few hrs after eating lots and lots of leaner protein.

*anyway* this has got me thinking...
1) High protein and low carb seem to be synonyms to the public. Is this justified? Maybe for controlling this thing, eating fat primarily, and not protein is just as important as making sure as not to eat too many carbs? I've suspected for a good while now that my body just doesn't jive to high protein the way it does to high fat. Today is just such a crystaline example of that. I've never felt this way after a high protein meal, and in fact, the more I eat of such high protein meals the worse (carb sensitivity wise) I feel.

2) Perhaps a metabolism that is not burning enough fat (because of over eating proteins and ignoring fats) is a reason our metabolisms might not work as well and stalls happen? I mean there is such misinformation that LC = High Protein. If you are unaware of what protein does (if we assume there is any credit to my theory)... then wouldn't that be like eating too many carbs, running your metaboilsm into the ground?

3) On calorie counting...
It's well known some of us need to count, some don't. All this time I kinda looked at fat as just an energy source, non-essential, better reduced for calorie purposes. But now I'm thinking maybe it is more significant because it has some kind of antagonistic effect on my body's dependence on its (rather crappy) sugar metabolism? Maybe it is possible to improve metabolism to the point where one wouldn't have to worry so much about calories? Maybe the difference between those of us who count and those who don't is, at least in part, that the non-counters have a much better ability to burn fats? Perhaps eating fat (and not protein) is one of the ways the already low carb population can improve their metabolisms?



How do other low carbers view fat vs protein? Do you find it makes no difference to your metabolism, or, do you find that fat helps much more than protein? Does anyone find that protein improves metabolism more than fat?

That's probably because a high percentage of protein can be converted to glucose. If you're limiting your fat - this is my theory at least - you're limiting your bodies capacity to fully utilize ketosis (fat burning) because you're converting too much protein to glucose and don't have enough fat intake to keep ketosis "stoked" whether you're in "continuous ketosis" (24/7) or cycling in and out on a more moderate, higher carbohydrate intake.

IMO - "lean protein" that we're told to eat just ain't natural - you don't have to have gobs and gobs of fatty meat, but to trim away every last morsel of fat, not how we could have or would have eaten in our history. Nor would we have tossed the yolks of eggs to use only whites, or munch away on soy products that are high in protein.

Almost every high quality protein source is neatly packaged with fat - we're repeatedly told to alter that nice mix and remove the fat.....just something to think about. :D

Fat is really the only macronutrient I worry about.

I just try to keep my carbs low-ish, and focus the rest of my attention on adding fat to my meals in whatever way I can. I just let the protein sort itself out. This usually ends up around 10-20% carbohydrate, 60-70% fat, and the remainder protein.

Lots of the paleo people think similarly about fat, if you want to pop over to the paleo/neanderthin board. :)

EDIT: what you describe with the hypo-like symptoms from eating lean protein sounds a lot like "rabbit starvation." native peoples have known for a long time that if you eat exclusively lean meat that you will sicken and eventually die if a fat source isn't found

As a hypoglycemic, I know that too much lean protein will cause a sugar crash. Enough fat is critical in stable blood sugar and feeling satisfied.

However, I have recently discovered that by worrying more about the fat and less about the protein that I haven't been getting enough protein. My hair fell out and my nails stopped growing, and I'm sure those are just the superficial problems.

So, I think this is all very complicated! ;)

Currently I'm using the Protein Power guidelines for adequate protein, which for a body my size is quite a lot. I average about 30 carbs, and I eat however much fat I crave around that. Always butter the veggies. Generous with sauces.

My new favorite satisfying snack is a large mug of tea with 2T coconut oil and a scoop of vanilla protein powder. The oil bonds to the particulate of the protein and stays mixed.


I'm afraid I think this is yet another YMMV issue. Every person has to find their own personal ratios, and be willing to change them as your body composition changes.

I get most of my protein from fatty meats. Four years ago I switched from skinless chicken breasts to chicken thighs with skin and find them more enjoyable to eat.

This is the reaction I get after a high-carb meal loaded with bread and sweets. My body temperature increases to the point of being uncomfortable (I feel flushed and too warm), I sweat more easily, irritability and brain fog take over, I get palpitations, and sometimes I start shaking. I do -not- like that feeling at all; to me it's "over-alive."

Are you describing something slightly different? I'm not sure why sweating and feeling warm are good things after a high-fat meal. :)

Hi,
I also think fat is a critical component, not just high protein and low carb. Also the fat source is of importance, avoiding the processed margarines and refined heated oils, and instead using pure butter and good oils for cold dishes. You should be aware of many oils which are full of Omega-6. I use butter for frying and extra virgin olive oil for salads etc.
I have also heard good things about coconut oil, but haven't tried it myself.
Be sure to avoid ANY trans fatty acids and hydrogenated oils!

It all kind of goes back to what Dr. Atkins wrote about not being afraid of fat if your carbs are kept in check. That didn't (as some people would believe) mean to gorge on as much fat as you can swallow, but that fat keeps the blood sugar more stable and leaves you satisfied on less.

That you felt so much better with more fat, adequate protien, and fewer carbs, IMO, means that's just what your body has been needing all along.

I think it's important to keep fat levels high. Fat causes virtually no insulin response. Protien does cause some insulin response. And we all know what kind of insulin response there is from carbs, especially if they are starchy or refined.

I may eat a bit less fat than most LCers--about 45%. I'm also a diabetic. I made the switch to a lower fat diet because I do not eat alone, and I found that my non-LC spouse was ending up with a high fat-high carb diet--not a good thing.

I don't guess at my blood glucose levels--I test. And over the 18 months or so I have been eating low carb, I have yet to have enough protein for it to show up in my Bg levels as a problem. That may be because I don't eat a half pound of meat at a sitting. I also don't skip meals, so I don't have to deal with starting at what for me is abnormally low levels and then a rapid rise after eating--something that would definitely cause sweating and feeling hot in my insulin sensitive body.

Folks are different, of course, and what works for me, would not necessarily work for anyone (much less everyone) else. I would though suggest that anyone who is really interested in figuring what is going on with their insulin response, might want to pick up a meter and test for a bit.

The meters are often available for free, because the test strips are the money makers. They usually come with some free strips, if not, one box would probably tell you what you want to know.

I've also found I can't have too much protein. I hardly ever have red meat, and have cut the portions of chicken and fish that I have, and lo and behold, I'm more likely to be in ketosis as per the test strips, than I was before. When I ate more protein, ie, at every meal, I rarely seemed to get into ketosis. At that time, I lot weight at the rate of about a pound a month. Now I'm managing about a pound a week. Yep, it's still slow, but compared to what it was before, I'm happy.
I'm sure I had a harder time with cravings when I ate more protein, the hunger suppression of ketosis never seemed to happen.
I'm sure my treacherous bod was happily converting it to glucose behind my back, so to speak.

I've resently started frying food with good old fashioned lard/beef dripping instead of olive oil and the taste of the food is really rich and SCRUMMY!! the difference is unbelievable and I felt much fuller for much longer too. I'm still full and I had my fry up at 3pm (its now 8.45pm here)

Sorry, nothing really to do with this thread, but just thought I'd mention it

I am a diabetic without a gall bladder and 61 years old. I find that for me to controll my blood sugar and bring them down to a more normal lever without medications, I need to eat about 90% fat and the rest between carbs and veggies. This sounds crazy, but if I eat a small California avocado and a salad in the evening without any protein, my morning blood sugar is around 85. I can not do this all the time, but when I do it I am always surprised.

Hi
Oh no I am not talking about an abnormal feeling, I think I know the feeling you are talking about. I get like that sometimes with hypoglycemia. WHen I over eat a lot of food and my sugar & insulin start to increase I too start shaking like my body goes into "shock".

I am talking about a satisfied, high energy state. My hands are like little ice cubes most of the time, my nails are often blue, skin is so dry, they are covered in cuts because the oxygen/energy flow there is so pathetic.

So when I say I feel warm, I don't mean overwarm. I mean my body is cranking out energy and blood flow is increasing etc. See, because I am already thin and eat relatively little to stay that way, my metabolism is suppressed. I am cold by default (most of the time). So for me, if I feel warm, it can mean my metabolism is working better (making & using more energy), and I feel better (more energetic). For most people, feeling a sudden increase in temp after eating would probably be more indicative of a problem. Sorry I should have clarified that.

Yea... like you say it is currently believed that fat and protein are about equal. But, it just doesn't *feel* that way to me.

The body and metabolism is really very complex. I wonder if it is not just insulin, but maybe something else which is causing this intolerance to high protein. Or, maybe those who tend to hyperinsulinemia are most likely to have a problem? Bat Spit is a hypoglycemic, like I am, and she said she has the same problems.

Hi, Do you mean you have switched protein for fat?
It sounds very interesting - the problem is just to find enough fat sources... :)
Especially in a lunch restaurant it is difficult to find enough good fat. How do you manage that?

I should clarify the warmth and sweating (I was not ACTUALLY sweating :) ) feelings weren't unwelcome or indicative of poor functioning metabolism. It was more like my metabolism was "revved and charged" with energy - most of the time I feel cold, lethargic.

I do have a meter,
but, I wouldn't think a meter would do much besides tell me what my sugar is. It's possible for sugar to not change but bad things are happening metabolically, isn't? Like, if my insulin rises too much, and I start to FEEL bad for a variety of reasons, my sugar might never become abnormal if my body can keep making it to prevent a drop. A meter would mislead me to believe I was imagining my symptoms or that nothing was wrong.

I seem to remember hearing at some point that if you eat too much protein without getting enough of either carbs or fat, that you can actually damage your kidneys, because converting protein to glucose puts a huge strain on them. I also seem to recall hearing that at some point there was a kind of all-protein diet craze that ended after several people died of kidney damage. Personnally I can't have more than about 30-40 grams of protein at a time, or my energy levels plummet, but lots of fat makes me feel good.

I also find animal fats more satiating and energizing than most of the plant ones I eat. Weird.

Thanks for the feedback. This is as I suspected - proteins are rather gluconeogenic, so naturally, fat helps sugar intolerance spectrum disorders way more than protein does. Eating fat is, for me, on par with not eating lots of carbs. Attempting to do this PC (that is, eat lean meats for energy) is a huuuge mistake every time I go that way.

Here's another issue raised by ojoj, I've noticed it as well.
Who else finds that animal fats are particularly good at helping metabolism?

I *think* I have found out that if I stall a few days, and then increase my fat intake, things improve. And I am increasing my animal fats and decreasing other fats, it just feels good...

I've noticed that after I eat dark meat chicken (with the skin), that I feel warmer and have more energy. I too have metabolic problems, and animal fats definetly seem to help me with energy levels and with staying warm.

I TOTALLY agree with you. Animal fat works so much better for me, is more filling, gives more instant energy, tastes better. Butter is a little less good but still very nice. Coconut fat is the only vegetable fat I can handle.

edited to say: the very best fat by far for me is organic lard. Fried eggs in lard make me so euphoric it's almost too much :D I suspect the middle chain fatty acids (hope that's what they're called..) convert into energy very easily.
Organic lard doesn't taste piggy-like at all. It reminds me of caramel actually. :thup:

I eat lots of mayo! And cook in butter, or goose fat or coconut oil. And use olive oil. I'm not overly fond of animal fats in the form of fatty meat, don't like the feel of it in my mouth, can't stand chicken skin.
But my over all calories are pretty low, because I'm short and don't do enough exercise. And I don't go to restaurants that much. I think, from memory, when things are going well I average between 1100 and 1200 calories a day, with about 70% fat.
(edit) have just gone and read some of the later comments, particularly about the lard. If I see any organic lard, I'll try it. But we have a ton of goose fat that came out of our xmas goose, so need to get through that.
As long as I was editing, I've gone to check my fitday and cherrypicked a couple of better than average weeks:

source grams cals %total
Total: 1107
Fat: 85 769 70%
Carbs: 26 93 8%
Protein: 60 239 22%

Taking the whole month, it was like this:

Total: 1215
Fat: 97 875 72%
Carbs: 26 95 8%
Protein: 59 238 20%

so, yes, I am having fat rather than protein. It seems to work for me, but we're all different.

I also feel best with a lot of fat (~65%), with fat grams & protein grams both at ~100g/day and <40g carbs minus fiber. I know the warm, satisfied feeling you are talking about. On days when I eat too much protein & not enough fat, I notice I am constantly thirsty, drink and excrete more water and my facial skin is much less elastic and appears to have twice as many wrinkles. I also feel tired & cranky.

I started low-carbing in 2000, but was eating only 30-40% fat back then and found the diet much harder to stick to since off-plan items still tempted me. After reading the work of Enig & Fallon, last August 1st I decided to try 65% fat & found it to be ideal for me. Not only do I lose as fast or faster with less exercise and more calories (1550/day w/65% fat; 1350/day w/40% fat; 1200/day w/<30% fat), I feel warm, satisfied, wide-awake, calm and much less stressed out and have zero menopause symptoms. Also, this was the first holiday season in my 51 years that I was never tempted by off-plan foods.

For those of you with non-LC spouses/partners/roommates, there are ways to get extra fat. I make chocolates by melting in a pyrex measuring cup: 2oz unsweetened baking chocolate + 12 oz coconut oil & stirring in 1/4 tsp stevia. After it cools I pour it into my 14 ice cube tray, let it set up in the fridge for an hour or two and then release the cubes & store in a baggie. If I feel I need a little something after a meal or in the middle of the day, this hits the spot, and being 99% fat, it does not raise insulin levels.

DANDR cites 1950s work by Kekwick & Pawan & later Benoit, where they tried 3 diets, one 90% carbs, one 90% protein & one 90% fat. Those on the high-fat diet lost the most.

An even higher fat diet that has been used to control many diseases in Poland for >30 years is called the Optimal Diet & was developed by Dr. Jan Kwasniewski. Check out: http://homodiet.netfirms.com/index.html

I do seem to do better with blood sugar and energy when I'm eating more fatty food instead of lean protein as a relatively new LCer. I don't test, but have been diagnosed as hypoglycemic and can definitely feel it when blood sugars drop. I've also noticed that if I go a couple days of lean meats....more veggies...less fats---I start craving fats?? Is that normal too...have you experienced the craving for more fats?? That was a weird experience for my brain?? Mercy

I also relate to the animal fat thing, eggs fried in bacon fat sustain me for a very long time after breakfast, with plenty of energy...

Well, from what I can gather this is what Dr Atkins was advocating.
Higher animal fats.

I have found when my fats are high in percentage, and my intake is moderate (no gorging) that I lose weight better.

Yes, butter or oil with the eggs, dark chicken pieses, pork chops with fat, mayo on salad.

All these things increase my satiety, and mobilise my fat stores. How do I know they are mobilised - because I can feel it in my mid section. Same way I knew I was gaining - felt it in the mid-section.

I seem to recall Dr. Atkins fat fast was low carb, low protein, high fat, but calorie restricted. This was for the severly metabolically challenged. But he designed it as a kick-starter and to move back into induction after a few days. Well perhaps there was something there about reving up the metabolism as you suggested Woo.

I notice the same thing with me with protein and fat. I cannot overdo it on protein either, otherwise I think my body converts the excess protein into glucose, which gives me the cravings/hunger/sleepiness akin to eating more carbs. The perfect percentage for me is what's contained inside a hard boiled egg. About 70% fat and adequate protein. This is why eating only 2 eggs in the morning will keep me going from 7am to lunch. I get mildly hungry at around 10:30am but nothing I cannot withstand. On Sat, I had a rib-eyed steak for lunch (about 6oz) with a salad and some grilled veggies. Even though my meal had a lot of fat, the huge amount of protein in the steak made me feel hungry about 3 hrs later. I'm on maintenance and the perfect eating day for me where I feel my best is when I eat higher fat, adequate protein and calories, and keep carbs on the low side as well.

I think adequate protein for me is around 60-75 grams a day.

Ah, maybe a 12 oz steak would keep that hunger at bay?