Myo/fascial/dermal adhesions and fibro

[kjturner]

I've decided to open a new thread regarding myo/fascial/dermal adhesions. I'm riddled with them (was--getting much much better) and I kinda feel like an 'expert' regarding them. I personally feel they are actually the 'root' of fibromyalgia. If the muscle/fascia/skin are all glued together then the muscle can't get oxygen=too much lactic acid=pain/cramps.

First, a description of what it is:

For those who aren't familiar with myo/fascial/dermal adhesions it is where your skin, fascia (thin membrane between the skin and muscle and also wraps around and supports some muscle), and the muscle tissue all 'grow' together. Ideally the muscle is wrapped in and or surrounded by fascia much like an elastic nylon sock on your foot. Your foot can move freely within the sock, but the sock 'supports' your foot. Now imagine you've just put a light moccasin on top of the socked foot, that's the skin. You could pinch the moccasin and pull it away from the foot a little without getting the sock underneath. Or you could pinch the moccasin a little deeper and get the sock to also pull away from the foot, or pinch it deeply enough and you get all three, moccasin, sock, foot. Now imagine a large drop of glue between the moccasin and the sock. Now when you pull the moccasin, you also get the sock even though you didn't mean to pinch it and the sock no longer moves as freely within the moccasin because it is glued in one spot, but the foot still can move freely within the sock because it isn't glued to the sock. Now imagine glue between the foot and the sock--now the foot no longer moves freely because it is glued and if the sock is also glued to the moccasin when you move the foot you'll see the moccasin wrinkle where the drop of glue is.
You'll see the same thing on you in the form of 'pocks', pockets, or creases. If you try to move the pocket or straighten the crease it'll hurt like mad! You may notice that skin on other areas will freely move if you lightly press down and circle the skin, but the adhered place will not move at all. If you have a pet, notice how no matter where you grab it's skin, it pulls freely away from the body. Some skin areas fit 'tighter' than others, but all should be able to be lightly pinched and pulled away from the 'meat'. If you happen to have fascial/dermal adhesion only (not involving the muscle), then if someone lightly pinches you it'll hurt a lot more than it should, and you may bruise very very easily. Also pinching a fold of skin and 'rolling' it will produce (in addition to a lot of pain) an interesting sensation of popping bubble wrap.
Our muscles get oxygen from the blood supply. Lactic acid (a combination of hyaluronic acid, hydrogen, plus some other minor components) can only form in an anaerobic condition (no oxygen). It cannot remain in an aerobic (oxygen rich) condition. The more we move our muscles the more blood/oxygen they get. If we use the muscle too much and it uses up the oxygen too quickly then we get lactic acid formation which results in failure and pain (that 'burning' sensation). Good circulation will quickly restore the aerobic atmosphere and the pain goes away and we regain full use of the muscle as the lactic acid unforms. If our circulation isn't so great, then the pain/fatigue lingers and if the circulation is bad enough the muscle stays in pain and may stay in a contracted state (spasm). As long as a muscle is in spasm, it isn't getting proper blood supply. If the blood supply is affected severely enough, then there is muscle fiber death and that fiber cannot be restored.
Now, if myo/fascial/dermal adhesion is present, then the muscle obviously cannot move properly to maintain good circulation, which causes a lactic acid build-up which leads to spasm/cramping. If there is a lot of adhesion there will frankly be a lot of pain. But if the spasm/pain continues for a long period of time eventually our wonderful brain will fool us into thinking all's well by blanking out the superficial pain with brain-produced chemicals that mask the lingering pain. But the body 'knows' the spasm/pain is still there, only now it's moved to the subconcious level, where I believe it interferes with our sleep. We are still unconciously aware there is a lot of pain still there and I feel that's where the fibro sufferer's trouble sleeping begins. Then the poor quality of sleep leads to a whole host of other problems...and so on.
From the many books I've read and internet research I've done I can tell that adhesions are acknowledged as one of the symptoms of fibro, but after battling this thing for so long (and winning, I might add) I personally feel it may actually be largely responsible for launching the symptoms. (Which came first, the chicken or the egg, thing). Did the adhesions start the cycle or did the sleep disturbance start it? Then there's the myriad other symptoms we have which in large part can also be attributed to high cortisol levels (stress), too much insulin, and poor quality sleep. I have chosen to attack my fibro with massage therapy, nutrition (low carbing), and natural/herbal therapy. The only chemicals I take are for diabetes and high blood pressure, but I've been able to reduce and/or eliminate some meds over time. My goal is to become med free.

I'd like to hear from other fibro sufferers out there regarding my ideas/observations....

(PS: I think because my adhesions are so wide-spread and tend to reoccur that it may be some kind of autoimmune response.)

[jessea]

Thanks for that post, KJ, I never knew that!!! I have read tons on fibro, too. I think I have a few of those "spots". I also bruise very easily, and feel pain much stronger than I should. I have a low threshold for pain, only on my skin/soft tissues. I can have a toothache, and it hardly bothers me, but lean an elbow on me, I howl in pain.

Now I understand. Your analogy about the sock was very helpful. I feel the low carb is helping alot.

I wholeheartedly agree about the sleep issue. When I do not sleep well, my whole system is up for grabs. Cramps, aches, weakness, you name it.

KJ, do you have Candida as well? I have read in alot of areas where candida and fibro may be linked. Then the chicken and egg theory comes again, which came first. I for one believe I had the candida first.

I have read that some researchers believe fibro starts after a trauma of some sort, like a car accident, or sexual abuse. I think that is a load of bull. My fibro just started, period. One day I remember thinking I was getting the flu, and I had these weird tender points on my shoulders. The tender points never went away, of course. I was about 24. Looking back, I think my problems with candida started when I was in my teens. I am almost 40, now, and I am ready to finally feel healthy!!!

Thanks for starting this thread!

-Jess

[kjturner]

I *used* to have candida, but not any more. It took about a year to get it all cleared out (low carbing of course).

I too have heard about the trauma thing and fibro and I have to agree that trauma may be a factor in getting a 'full blown' case of fibro. I fell off a telephone pole in 1980 and looking back I believe that's when most everything really got started fibromyalgia-wise, but I also already know that at that time I probably had the candida, plus I already knew I had fibrocystic breast disease then, which is thought to be a precursor or 'warning' of possible fibromyalgia later.

[quietone]

I don't have the adhesions at this time, although I do believe I have had them in the past. I think low carbing keeps them at bay for me. (and my weight workouts)

And looking back, I believe I can pinpoint when my fibro started. It was after a period of working three jobs. I would go 2-3 days with no sleep, and my sleep/wake cycle became really screwed up. When I finally got to a point where I could work one job again, I suddenly noticed that I was in pain a lot of the time. It seemed to be here, there and everywhere. And for the first time ever, I had sleep disturbances.

[EarthLight]

Great Info, KJ!

I've never had anybody explain it that way - I'm gonna have to come back & re-read this one a few times to totally "get it", even so. (s--l--o--w b-r-a-i-n uptake :daze: ?) :read: :read:

Almost missed your comment/connection on another post, so Thank you for this thread. I think I have many, many, many of these :( knotted spots.

My pain, on my own personal scale of 1 -10 (10 worse), freqently runs about 7 to 9, and doesn't drop below a 6. That's without factoring in the cramps, which are cyclical and always WAY aggravated by physical exertion. It's hard to balance/determine what amount of movement is OK & what's not. (I hate begin unable to predict, can you tell?)

Massage therapy might work, if I could find the right practioner & the funds to cover it. As it is, I do a lot of self-healing work - partly for budget reasons. I did get a start of some body loosening when I had a series of chiropractic sessions last year.

However - I think our body (soul/mind - all connected) has to be receptive and ready for the modality we choose. I have had at least 2 occasions (several years back) when massage did NOT work for me - in that too much toxicity was released at once. That old "hit by a Mack trouble" feeling tripled, and it took weeks to recover. The therapist I'm remembering was shocked at how every inch of my face hurt, and was trying to loosen/change just that one area.

I have even had this excess toxicity release happen with constitutional homeopathy - so you can see why, for me, a cautious approach is indicated.

There are loads of massage therapists in my area - maybe I can find one who'll honor my cautious approach & who might be open to barter. I'd be very grateful if that could happen!

Sending you every good healing wish as you create your wellness~

[EarthLight]

Hi KJ & all -

I just re-read your informative post - I'm glad to say I "got it" a little more this time!

One question - do you think all the "knotty" spots that I feel are adhsesions? Maybe this is common - so excuse the description if so - but it's good to be able to ask. If I rub/run my hand down or across my arm (or leg etc) there are distinctive ripply knotty feeling ridges underneath. They seem quite long. I do rub or do a vibrato motion, to "loosen" the pain points, so that's why I'm noticing this, but there is pain in non-knotty spots too.

I agree - the autoimmune issue is key. The question is - why did our bodies "turn" on themselves? Are there more autoimmune disorders these days (which I think is true) or are they just more obviously known & diagnosed?

My first "autoimmune" illness was almost 20 years ago. I am very curious as to what environmental or other aspects might be setting us up for these disorders.

Thanks again for this thread & your sharing.

[quietone]

I believe there are many more cases these days.

And I think our (read: woman's) lifestyle is one part of the ratio. Meaning the stress we live with these days, and the processed foods that are abundant and the lack of activity for starters.

My family has no autoimmune diseases anywhere in the family tree until my sister developed RA. This was very shortly after leaving an abusive husband. And I feel, without any doubt, that the stress of living with the one, caused the other. Not only living with him, but putting up with the crap trying to get away from him! I don't think it is a coincidence.

Every case I personally know of, where autoimmune diseases came about during middle age, there was a crisis/stress situation preceding the diagnosis.

I know that people all through history have had these types of situations, but I think what was expected of them then, is different now. Take me, for instance. I have had terrible fibro this past year and three bouts of piriformis syndrome. All I want to do is stay home. But because of the financial pressure I have on my plate, and my husband's attitude about working, I still hobble up and get into work. Which is stressful in and of itself.

And don't even get me started on the bad, bad things about office jobs!

I know this will rankle some; but I truly believe that the upward trend of a lot of diseases countless woman are now facing has to do with our new "equality" roles and the different stresses that places on us and our health.

[jessea]

I have to agree that women are under more stress now than ever. We were right in wanting equality, but things went awry along the way. We are now expected to do everything, not just our fair share.

I am a stay-at-home mom, and I get alot of flack from people who don't understand why I am not working! As if raising a family is not considered work!

I am sure that the added stress, plus bad nutrition is the cause for alot of health issues. I think better nutrition should be the first issue to be addressed, a healthy body is able to handle stress much better. I am thankful that we are on this forum, discussing these issues. We are on the right track, and I hope that, together, we can get healthy.

Have a great day, everyone!

-Jess

[quietone]

My husband is older than I and has the old mentality regarding housework etc., but he also has the new expectation that I am going to bring in a paycheck.

Most days in the winter this is his schedule: get up, work out, eat breakfast, relax...go to work. Come home, relax, eat dinner, play on computer, go to bed.

Ok, so who do you think is doing the cooking, cleaning and dishes, etc.?

And its not even that he won't do all the above, it is that he acts like it is some huge favor he is bestowing on me because he worked all day. Excuse me?!

Yes, I know I am getting off track and venting. I am sitting here with my piriformis syndrome flaring and having to drag my left leg behind me. I sit at a computer all day so it is killing me. Sleeping only a few minutes at a time because of the pain. Can only walk a few feet at a time, etc. and he wanted to know last night what I was fixing for dinner. Where is the equality in that?

Jess, don't you ever let anyone convince you to go to work for anyone but yourself. And you may have a rare guy that will do his share, but don't count on it. It is a full-time job to stay home and raise a family and if you decide to go to work, you will then be working two full-time jobs!

Oh yeah! He also thinks that fibro is all in our heads.

[jessea]

Hi! I am so sorry about the piriformis acting up. I used to work with a woman who suffered from the same thing, and I mean suffer. There were days she couldn't even leave the house it was so bad. So I definately know what you are talking about, and I am so sorry you are feeling bad. I have lost touch with her, but the last I knew, she found no relief. Wish I knew of a magic cure.

I can't believe your husband thinks fibromyalgia is "all in our heads". Typical male. I am not sure what my husband thinks, some days I think he thinks I am nuts, others he is very sympathetic. He does help out quite a bit, and is very involved with both our kids, so I am lucky, I know. We do butt heads alot, because now that I am home all day, sometimes I think he is under the impression that I work for him. One day I screamed at him "Listen, buddy, this is NOT a corporation, and you are not the CEO, so shut up. This is a team, and you are not being a good team player!" He really took me seriously that time, but I have to keep reminding him, and that is aggravating.

Don't feel bad about venting, you should vent. It is very important to get it out of your system. And this is a great forum to vent. I for one am always ready to listen, and so are alot of others, so keep venting! Better to vent than to explode! :D

Hope you feel better soon!!!

-Jess

[jessea]

Was reading an article about fibromyalgia, and it talked about the tender points. One of them runs directly on line with the piriformis muscle! I wonder if the flare ups are related to fibromyalgia. I firmly believe that alot of health issues are related, and this could be another one of those issues.

Are you taking any supplements/medications for this or for your fibromyalgia? Please let me know what you are taking.

-Jess

[quietone]

I believe the piriformis flareups are part and parcel of the fibro. My rheumy wasn't so sure, although she did admit that she had several fibro patients with piri.

Same thing with my eye problems. They come right along with the fibro flareups and disappear when the flare-ups subside.

It is so frustrating. The weather is finally getting a little warmer here and there is so much I could do outside, but I can't.

I keep telling myself there has got to be a reason. There has got to be an answer that no one has thought of, or researched. But I haven't figured it out yet.

[jessea]

Do you have candida? I have read alot about fibro and candida being linked. I have both. While I have been detoxifying, my fibro has flared up alot more. I am sure it will dissappear along with the candida. Just low carbing kills of the yeast. I am reading a book right now about tryptophan and how it helps with chronic pain. Am only a few chapters into it, tho. I take 5HTP at night to help me sleep. It really works, but I have found that during flare-ups, I need to take double or triple the dosage.

Please let me know about the candida, and what type of supplements you are currently taking. There is an answer out there, let's find it!

-Jess

[quietone]

I took the test and according to that I probably do. But I find that so many of these tests have all the same symptoms.

Half of the symptoms of the test are symptoms of fibro. And the other half are symptoms of allergies.

I have never in my life had a yeast infection of any kind. Haven't taken antibiotics for at least five years.

I have thought for some time that the connection may be hormones. Every problem I have affects women much more than men. I have always had SAD, but it was manageable until about a few years ago. I never had the pain problems until the same time I started noticing more PMS and basically signs of peri-menopause. Which of course, affects different women at different ages.

I have often wondered if going on HRT would stop some of these symptoms. Of course Dr. Lee recommends doing it naturally. I really don't know. Although I will say that when I did a low-fat vegetarian diet a few years ago, a lot of my SAD symptoms and PMS symptoms disappeared. I felt awful (stomach and pain) and looked awful (skin), but my moods were much better and my time of month became more like it was when I was a kid. (I have often wondered since if the problems were caused by my increase intake of bread products and milk products during that time. ) Whereas when I low carb, my skin looks better, my tummy feels better and the pain is better, but my SAD gets worse and so does my PMS and other hormonal symptoms.

Ho..hum!

[quietone]

that the candida can cause the fibro?

And you have candida and fibro?

What are you doing for yours (the candida)?

[jessea]

Yes, I firmly believe there is a connection. I am reading a book right now called "CAndida Related Complex - What your doctor might be missing." by Christine Winderlin. I am also reading The Yeast Connection Handbook by William G. Crook, MD. Dr Crook is an expert on yeast overgrowth.

Yes, I understand about the list of symptoms being similiar. You said half the symptoms are allergies, half are fibro. But all are candida. Candida causes allergies and food allergies, too.

Also, Dr. Crook says that women are more susceptible to yeast problems because progesterone levels increase candida. That is why women who are pregnant get more yeast infections. So, yes your problem could be hormone related, and it could all be related to candida.

You did say you have never had a yeast infection, or taken antibiotics in five years. Have you ever taken cortisone medications or steroid medications? Have you ever been on birth control pills? Are you allergic to mold? If you answered no to all of these questions, it might not be candida that is an issue for you. I personally very rarely get a vaginal yeast infection. I have a myriad of other symptoms, mainly gastrointestinal. I am allergic to mold. Highly allergic I should say. Mold allergies are a big indicator of candida overgrowth.

I am taking a few different formulas to help eradicate the yeast. First I am still following the induction plan on Atkins. Second I am taking Candistroy, alternating with Yeast Cleanse, and Olive leaf extract. I also take a probiotic. I am noticing a clearing of symptoms, all happening slowly. It can take 6 months to totally clear candida, and perhaps longer.

I hope that this was not too confusing. I agree with you that hormones could be an issue for you. But the question is, what is causing your hormone levels to be out of balance? Candida could play a part in that, but it could be many other issues. Research is key. Dr. Crook has a website, just search for Dr. Crook on google .com, and he has a questionaire. You might want to look into it.

Hope all this was helpful!!!

Have a great day!!

-Jess

[quietone]

re: hormones...that's just my age I guess. (peri-menopause)

No, i'm not allergic to mold (just had allergy tests done last month). Was on birth control pills for only about 6 months about 25 years ago. I don't recall ever being on steroids. I have a big issue with them. But I may have been put on them when my back went out before I read up on that. That would have been more than 7 years ago.

Thanks for the info.

I have been trying to modify Atkins some, but I think I will go on it fully and see what happens.

[kjturner]

Having had both candida and fibro, I don't believe they are necessarily related in that they affect each other, but more the candida is a symptom of our too-high sugar/starch diets. I got rid of mine purely by low-carbing. I did try some of the natural antifungal supplements, but never bought a second bottle of any of them. It took me about a year to be totally symptom free of the candida, but I remain symptom free to this day. I also had fibrocystic breast disease and giving up caffeine and going on low dose birth control pills brought that under control. Oh, I still have the fibrocystic 'changes' in my breasts, but they aren't getting any worse. I managed to stop it. I no longer take the B/C pills, only took them for 6 years. However, I believe that the "tendency" toward getting fibromyalgia was signaled by the fibrocystic breast disease and the fall off the telephone pole triggered it. Ridding myself of the candida did not stop the fibromyalgia from forming, nor stop it from forming any further. Today I still constantly battle the adhesions, but I am very slowly winning the war.

..Earthlight: Yes, what you are describing are adhesions/lesions. Some lesions can be *quite* large and are very very painful. They have a very 'stringy' feel to them, versus the 'corded' feel of a muscle in spasm. A lesion will feel glued and will hurt a great deal, and may also produce a bruise quite easily. Guafenesin helps, but my kidneys didn't like it so I had to come off it.

[Suekay]

KJ--wow! I have never even heard of this! But it may be a problem of mine. I had a manicure not long ago and had to halt the manicurist's attempts at massaging my arms. It hurt too badly--for a couple of days afterward I felt bruised. I also have the lumps and bumps under the skin nearly all over my body. I thought that maybe candidas was the culprit, but this sounds like adhesions might be the culprit.

I too have high bp and insulin dependent diabetes. I've been following a low-carb diet for several months now and last month modified it to fit the candidas diet and Dr. Bernstein's diabetes diet--they are all so similar that it works, although it's rather confusing at times. I too want to be med free, but unexplained spikes in blood sugars preclude that at the moment.

How is the best way to reverse the adhesion problem or is it even possible? Are there any exercises, certain types of massage, or even vitamin/herb protocols? Thanks for the informative post!

susan

[sknymonkey]

I was in a car accident a little over a year ago (why I'm on Atkins. I gained 40 lbs in 6 mos after the accident). My doctors have been throwing thier hands in the air when it comes to my symptoms that remain. My legs go numb when I lie down, I can't always put pressure on my right arm, and I occaisionally get a wierd sensation in my right forearm that fells as if my muscle is pulling away from the bone, if that makes any sense. Someone today mentioned that it might be fibro, and I remembered seeing it here so I thought I'd check it out.
I've never had a yeast infection, but I am allergic to mold and penicillin.
Does anyone have any input?

[sknymonkey]

I forgot to mention that I also have been experiencing MAJOR sleeplessness since the accident. I am currently taking Ambien to help. :yawn: :yawn:

[quietone]

I will say that sleeping problems are a major part of fibro. As a matter of fact, the medical establishment do not know which comes first, the sleeping problems or the fibro.

And you did have an accident...which can be a precursor to fibro

Your nerve problems may be due to your weight gain. I have noticed all kinds of peculiar things since I gained so much weight.

[kjturner]

sknymonkey,

I do believe you now have fibromyalgia/CFS. It is often thought (but not proven) to be triggered by trauma. I now think it is somehow also insulin resistance related. Since I was rather 'forced' to go low-carb due to having become diabetic, I am finding that a lot of my symptoms are relieved. I also get 2 hours of deep tissue massage a week. (Quite painful--I have to get a 'relaxation' one about every fourth session in order to 're-center') But it is a constant thing. If I have to go for a few weeks without massage, the adhesions re-form and I have to go through getting them broken up again. It's kind of a 3 steps forward, 2 steps back thing. I personally feel it is some kind of an autoimmune response, but I have no clue (nor do the docs) on how to stop it. Meanwhile, I continue my self-directed course of therapy. I don't like taking medications, but I did find that increasing my magnesium and melatonin helped a great deal. I sleep much much better now. I also take an armload of supplements to make up for deficiencies. I had a doctor tell me I was quite low in magnesium and she recommended I take a chelated magnesium supplement until it gave me 'the squirts' then back off 250mg. I ended up taking 2200mg/day of magnesium for about 3 months before the deficency was relieved, then I was able to back off slowly, but I still take about 1000mg because I apparently have a high magnesium requirement due to the insulin resistance et al....

[sknymonkey]

Thank you both for the input. My doc used to be a nutritionalist, and he's been recomending LC diets to people with fibro since the 70's. He says it solves the problem with 40-45% of the people he's seen, and at least alieviates some of the problems with the others. He say's he wan't to see how I am in a few more weeks on the diet before he diagnoses me officially, but he's pretty sure I have it. Thank god for this WOL and for people who listen to us.

"I personally feel it is some kind of an autoimmune response, but I have no clue (nor do the docs) on how to stop it."

My doc also said that he often beats his head against the wall with some fibro patients. I say as long as I can sleep, at least I can be human. I still can't sleep without Ambien, and believe me I've tried it all. I would prefer a more natural approach, but I've been so desperate for sleep that I gave in to pharmaceuticals. I used to take Metagenics Myocalm P.M. with calcium, magnesium, passion flower, valerian, hops and kava kava and it would knock me out cold, but it hasn't worked since the accident. I still recomend it to people all the time. There was no hangover the next day. I can't go for a massage yet, but seeing your success I might give it a try soon. My phys. therapist said that my tense muscles are all that's holding me up right now and if the get too reaxed too quicky it will thow everything else out. She sais maybe in a month or so.
Thanks again