Blood Pressure and Diabetes

[Whited]

Hi. Dennis here . I'm sure this has been covered here somewhere so forgive me if this is old news. I've been doing Low Carb for a little over 6 months. I've lost 85 pounds and am at present controlling BG at fairly normal levels. My A1C in March was 4.9 and in May 5.1. My morning fasting blood sugars are usually around 75 both with my Freedom Lite meter and at the hospital and in a recent blood test. Sometimes they are mid 80s in the morning. They go up to upper 80s or 90s after a meal.

Anyway my blood pressure is still kind of high or is it? I've read a lot about how they lower the bar becuse of the drug industry's influence. I am 57 and usually it's 130s over low 80s or sometimes low 140s over 90. Tonight it was 148/ 92, a little higher than normal . It can get higher like when I was at the hospital and ready for surgery and under some stress.

I have been upping my potassium supplements and take Co Q 10 but I don't see a difference yet. I hate to get on a BP medicine if I can help it as some, I have read, cause increase in BS among other side effects. I tried Lisinipril a few years ago and it did nothing. Then my doctor put me on a new drug for free for a year or so -- Edarbyclar. That worked right away for sure but when the free samples ran out I found it was $167 a month. Also I read that Edarbyclar raises BG -- that's the very year my BG rose to the diabetic level. That might not have caused it but it probably didn't help.

On the other hand doctors warn that with diabetes the BP should be low but what about if I'm contolling my BG?

I don't know -- I sometimes think if I'm excercising and losing weight etc. that's the best I can do.

What are your experiences? Any thoughts?

[jschwab]

Do you have diabetes? Do you take meds to control it? Your numbers look so good.

Out of the blue, when I was in very good shape and eating very well, my blood pressure crept up about six years ago. I've been monitoring it with the pharmacy machines and it's always still high, about how yours looks, but when I've been at the doctors (different offices), it's suddenly back to normal again within the last year. I realized that my cuff at home and the pharmacy machines were made for people with smaller arms than mine. Mine at 15" around and they only go up to 13".

Anyway, I was surprised to see it suddenly drop on its own. I think it was pressure of having small children melting away since my youngest got big enough to be more independent. I always refused meds and it just adjusted on it own. At some point I tried taking potassium and it just made me sick so I stopped. I was eating more potassium-rich foods AKA carbfest. So I don't know. I still feel like it's mysterious and mostly related to stress.

[Whited]

I hear you about the stress -- I am a type A for sure. I was diagnosed with diabetes back in Nov. 2014. My A1C was 8.2 and FG was 171. I didn't take the Statins, Metformin, blood pressure medicine I was prescribed that day though. I've been controlling it so far with a low carb diet.

Its just hard to know who to believe about blood pressure -- we all know how messed up ADA guidelines are for diabetics.

[cotonpal]

As usual, Malcolm Kendrick has a very helpful take on the subject of blood pressure. Here's his bottom line:

"Lowering the blood pressure will certainly get rid of an annoyingly high measurement, but it cannot (unless by complete coincidence), have any impact on the underlying disease…… the thing causing you to die. So, unless it is startlingly high, what good can lowering blood pressure actually do?

The answer my friend, is not blowin in the wind. The answer is ‘no good at all.’"

The whole article can be found here:

http://drmalcolmkendrick.org/2012/04/02/does-treating-high-blood-pressure-do-any-good/

Jean

[GRB5111]

Whited - you're moving in the right direction as far as BG and weight. You've made excellent progress. Some doctor may interpret your BP readings as being high, but most today would not be alarmed at the readings you report. If it went higher and it was sustained, maybe. As cotonpal notes, I would not be concerned, as BP is a marker for another underlying cause that you likely are correcting as you progress with your BG and weight corrections. Excellent results, by the way!!!

[JEY100]

Love Dr Kendrick!
Have you seen Dr Eenfeldt's course on BP? Good overview of what readings may need medicine after you use diet and lifestyle first.

http://www.dietdoctor.com/blood-pressure

I get high readings at any office at Duke, because they require a Half hour drive on a busy interstate. At home in the am it is fine, no one has ever suggested medication...think one was 168/94 or somewhere in that range.

[cotonpal]

Before I changed my diet and lost weight I took medication for high blood pressure. I can't remember how high my blood pressure was. The first medication, although only a small dosage, caused my potassium level to drop enough that it was causing cramps in my hands and a potassium supplement was added. Then I tried the medication that caused me to cough. At some point I just stopped taking these medications. I can't remember why I stopped. Probaly it was the side effects. Since then my blood pressure has tended to be slightly elevated (130-140/80-90) and occasionally a little higher, but then only in the doctor's office. Medication has been mentioned casually by my new doctor but never really pushed on me. Lately, measuring at home, my blood pressure has fallen to very close to that target 120/70, sometimes a little lower, sometimes a little higher. It may be because of my daily 16 hour fast. There's no way to tell, but I am glad that I never went the medication route again. Dr Gilbert Welch in his books on overtreatment/overdiagnosis says that the closer a number gets to "normal" the more the potential risks of medication out weigh the potential benefits.

Jean

[JEY100]

Your cramps reminded me that the "Dishing Up Nutrition" podcast this week was about mineral deficiencies. One cause they see all the time in their clients is BP meds, aka Diuretics, causing the loss of many minerals. Why don't doctors warn patients about how these meds work and nutrients needed to correct? :-(

[jschwab]

You have done an amazing job with my diet. My husband who is not even diabetic but who has moved in that direction with high normal A1C (5.7) has never been able to get it down much even with years and years of being committed to low to no carb. Right now after all these years it's only come down to 5.6. Your progress is outstanding.

I think you know what you need to do - shut out the voices like with the diabetes and just work on what you know to be good for you. With BP very similar to yours, I have been told that I should not take meds by my doctor. She does not recommend them. There are differing opinions even within mainstream medicine.

[Whited]

Thanks for all the common sense answers and encouragment. I read the articles posted and they make sense. It totally is common sense that lowering the numbers and not the obesity or stress or whatever is causing the numbers doesn't make sense. I have noticed a lot of skinny people with high blood pressure lately but it depends on the definition of high. My doctors go by the 115/75 reading pretty strictly.

[jschwab]

Thanks for all the common sense answers and encouragment. I read the articles posted and they make sense. It totally is common sense that lowering the numbers and not the obesity or stress or whatever is causing the numbers doesn't make sense. I have noticed a lot of skinny people with high blood pressure lately but it depends on the definition of high. My doctors go by the 115/75 reading pretty strictly.


Let us know how it goes. And also watch cuff size. I was measuring high at home and in the drugstore for years and recently found out all those cuffs top out at 13" and my arms are 15". My upper arms are not even that big, so a lot of people must be reading wrong.

[JEY100]

My doctors go by the 115/75 reading pretty strictly.That is ridiculous, a number BELOW ideal for a young, healthy person. It is normal to be above 120/80 if you are middle-aged; nothing to be treated up to 140/90.
Says me :) but then I don't get free lunches from the drug rep for BP meds. :lol:

[Nancy LC]

Mine goes high if I've had too much coffee... which I do almost every day by around noon. So when you get your BP tested, do it before you start guzzling java.

[JEY100]

The book OverDiagnosed was recommended on another thread. I have it from library now, first chapter is on BP. Until the 1990s, only the diastolic (bottom) number was even treated, over 105 was considered moderately elevated. Still some question if the top number even matters that much. An interesting look at the risk/rewards of treatments at various BP numbers.

[irishred15]

There is a 2013 JAMA article that reported an expert consensus recommendation that for individuals 60+ that no treatment should be considered until BP was consistently found to be 150/90 and greater. And lifestyle changes should be first line treatment.

[Whited]

Thanks all of these posts are interesting. I'm going to have to check out that book Janet. I read some interesting reviews of it. Of course the rub is that doctors want it low when a person has diabetes which I do understand. Many say not to treat mild hypertension UNLESS there is diabetes. This does add a risk factor. However my blood sugars have been in the normal range now since about January. I know that could change and they could elevate but what if they remain in the normal range -- would I not be in the diabetic group until they are raised and are consistently in the diabetic range? Probably most doctors will say to take drugs just to be on the safe side but I'm going to continue on with natural methods as long as I can. I will say on occassion (pre-surgery, dentist) my BP can elevate pretty high but I do believe that is so called "white coat" blood pressure. The point of concern, I suppose, is consistant elevation over time.

[JEY100]

Yes, over time is key. Why my DH's doctor said buy a home BP meter, and check first thing every morning and a second time later in day for a month. Come back with the little record card they give (same card and a machine at my Y/drug store too if you don't want to buy one). There was no need for BP meds when looked at the whole month.

Dr Welch gives a good example of Overtreating BP in an older man. Passed out while working from dehydration, sweating in hot summer weather...luckily at that moment not with a chain saw or tractor. It doesn't take much to tip BP too low when on a diuretic too.

[cotonpal]

One point that Dr Welch makes in his books is that the closer one's value is to "normal" the less the benefits of treatment and the greater the risks. Taking a drug always has risks as well as benefits and those risks need to be considered before deciding to take a drug.

Jean

[Bonnie OFS]

I was given a blood pressure monitor a while back & discovered I have white coat syndrome. By the time I got into the doctor's office, it was quite high. I now check my bp at home & let them know what my reading was. They always accept mine.

Which makes me wonder how many people end up on bp meds just because they get stressed going to the doctor?

[Merpig]

Bonnie, I have severe whit coat syndrome too, and my doctor's office readings are usually sky high. Years back my then doctor had me wear a holter monitor for 24 hours, and said "you're right about the white coat thing. When you where here your pressure was sky high, 20 minutes after you left it was much lower, 40 minutes later it was normal, and then remained normal the next 24 hours" (despite stresses at work, etc). Then it began to rise again next day as I headed back to the doctor, and was sky high at her office again!

I do check it at home fairly often, and do drink a daily cup of hibiscus tea which helps a lot. I just started with a new doctor last week, and that day my BP was 114/78 at 8 am, and at 1:30 pm, just before I left for my appt, it was 170/105!

At the new doctor's office though they used a very large cuff and got a reading of 156/90 which is probably a lifetime low at a doctor's office. :)

I also highly recommend Dr. Welch's book Overdiagnosed. I was already aware of much that was in it, but also much that was really high opening.

I've always been the sort who avoids doctor's as much as possible unless I really feel weirdly awful (not just "normally" awful like having a dreadful cold), and I've had many people tell me that it's going to kill me. After reading the book I'm not so sure. :)

[Whited]

I know I also have white coat hypertension for sure. I am especially elevated at the dentist's office. About a week or two ago it was 179/103 at the beginning of the appt. (just a checkup and cleaning) and immediatly after I left the office (in the parking lot after walking to my car and not sitting still) I checked again with the very same wrist meter I had used for the initial reading and it was 128/82. This dentist said its not at all uncommon. Right before my surgury back in april it was 180/103 but these are defintly not the norm. Recently mine has been around 120ish / lower 80s several times a day. last evening it was 111/77. I have been taking some supplements (CoQ10/ fish oil/ and potassium) and maybe thery're helping or maybe not. Maybe I'm just not stressed right now.

The doctor has asked me to get mine checked on occassion at the office but I quit going there. The reason is it was always good when the nurse just came out in the waiting room to take my pressure. She always frowned at me like I was wasting her time and making it up. But it's slightly higher in the room (last time 150/80 sometimes higher) but at the dentist's office it goes way up there.

[Whited]

My blood pressure has been doing better latley but I'm really impressed with the change in wy wife's BP. She started to take a regiment of vitamins an minerals that, in a short time, really dropped her BP dramatically. She has been 180 over 100 (to 104) for a long long time and now 130/ 80 and sometimes lower. This has been very consistant over the past month or two.

She added vitamins E and C, the B vitamins, potassium, magnisium, hawthron berry, CoQ10, omega 3 6 and 9, and a multivitamin.

[JEY100]

Great news for your wife. Could be the vitamins, less stress or more exercise in the spring and summer, or what another member here calls Collateral Dieting. There are less carby foods in the house due to your diet change. Subtle changes in her patterns of eating out and groceries bought because of you. Lower carb eating is good medicine for BP. Whatever, it's all good :thup:

[Merpig]

I do check it at home fairly often, and do drink a daily cup of hibiscus tea which helps a lot. I just started with a new doctor last week, and that day my BP was 114/78 at 8 am, and at 1:30 pm, just before I left for my appt, it was 170/105! This is one of the main reasons I try to avoid going to doctors at all possible costs.

But yesterday I finally decided I had to go as after two back-to-back bouts of antibiotics (long story) I developed an apparent yeast infection and nothing I tried at home helped a bit - so finally decided I had to see the GYN yesterday (whom I'm not very crazy about). BP was 119/68 in the morning, but by the time I was due to leave for the doctor it was 186/99! I hated to go and have it read as I knew it would keep going up and up.

Sure enough I got to the doctor and they got a reading of 190/105. She told me "this is too high. I can't let you leave the office with a reading like this. If it doesn't come down I am required to send for an ambulance". Sheesh, that kind of ultimatum only makes it go higher yet. They took it again 10 minutes later and got 200/110! She then examined me and gave me a prescription - and I *thought* I was being allowed to go when five firemen/EMTs all came rushing into the room with lots of equipment, hooking me up to all sorts of monitors - which only made my BP shoot higher yet!

They asked me all sorts of questions: How do you feel? (stressed out by all this but otherwise fine), do you have any chest pain?(no), are you feeling faint or dizzy? (no), do you have a headache? (no). They said "well you certainly look and act and talk like you are perfectly fine" but insisted I had to go to the ER. I told them, "but I want my BP to go back to normal. If I go home that will happen. If I go to the ER it WON'T and I will just get worse and worse". They finally let me go after I signed a waiver that it was against their advice.

BP was still high (180/98) when I got home and it's still a bit higher than normal but more in high normal range rather than usual lower normal - but I have struggled with this white coat hyptertension for over 30 years now and I don't know what the answer is!

[Whited]

My local doctor says it must be down normal at all times. I was pleased when it was 150/80 but he said no -- must be lower.

When I got out of gallbladder surgery in 2011 I was worried about sleep apnea (they wouldn't let me have my machine as it wasn't prescribed). I was really worring too much as I don't think the risk was a big deal but I never had surgery before and I had no idea what to expect. The nurse said "you've got to get that blood pressure down" in a pretty threatening tone. She didnt tell me what it was but she just kept yelling at me and I finally told her that all this yelling won't lower my BP.

The veteran 70 year old surgeon came in and asked me why I was still there -- I told him about the BP and the nurse and he said "So what? This is a high blood pressure place." You want to go home or hang around here?"

[Whited]

My wife's BP is still doing great. Mine's doing good too (actually better than hers) but her's is a dramatic change in a short amount of time. The major variable change was the supplements. She was already eating a semi-low carb diet -- defintally not as low carb as mine but she did lose a few pounds and her BP was a little better but not a dramatic decrease. She gets the same amount of excercise as always. Stress the same. I was pretty amazed at how much the supplemet regime changed her BP readings. They went down 50 or so points in 2 weeks and are consistant. She now reads the lowest in 20 years.

If anyone wants me to post the supplement regime (amounts in mg. etc.) she's doing I'd be glad to. It's not cheap -- probably $30 - $40 a month or more. It might not work for you of course as there are so many underlying reasons for elevated BP but you never know.

I am convinced though that current doctor's recomendations are not realistic in this regard anyway. Thanks Janet for those links -- I really liked the short article. I've also ordered Overdiagnosed (the book) and will read that with interest.

[Merpig]

My wife's BP is still doing great.I was pretty amazed at how much the supplemet regime changed her BP readings. They went down 50 or so points in 2 weeks and are consistant. She now reads the lowest in 20 years.

If anyone wants me to post the supplement regime (amounts in mg. etc.) she's doing I'd be glad to. It I'd be curious about what she takes as I've tried just about every supplement anyone has ever recommended without it helping my BP when it was starting to go up even at home. I read an article at Chris Kresser's site called something like "10 ways to lower your blood pressure naturally" and was bummed as I was already doing all 10 and none of them had dropped my BP one whit, someone in the comment section said she had had the same experience, but drinking hibiscus tea dropped hers like a rock.

I ordered some hibiscus tea and within a couple weeks my BP had also dropped over 50 points and has remained there - readings like 116/68 are not uncommon - as LONG AS I'M NOT AT THE DOCTOR'S OFFICE. But not a single supplement ever helped.

[Whited]

Hi. Dennis here. I'll post what she takes below. Remember this isn't any med. advice or endorsement or anything. You always have to research and take care what goes in your own body. All I am saying is her BP responded to this pretty dramatically -- it might not work for everyone. Also it is a little expensive. Her only income is a retirement from the Sate of Missouri (as a clerk) which is -- now get ready for this amount and try not to be jealous -- $167.00 a month. But if you're interested here is what she takes for BP

She adapted a regime from the book
Nature’s Medicines by Gabe Maleskey. It actually is best to read the book yourself if interested because you don’t want to go over certain amounts of vitamins and minerals like Potassium, E, and B6

A good Multi vitamin (her’s is from Lifeforce) -- 2x a day

Potassium citrate -- 99mg 2x a day (the author suggests 7000 mg a day but this is controversial and can only be done under a doctor’s care anyway)

Magesium glyconate -- 133 mg 2x a day

Calcium Boron -- 1x a day

Ginkgo Biloba (24%) -- 60 mg 2x a day

Vit. B6 -- 50mg 1x a day (she takes ½ 100mg tablet because the multi has some & a person shouldn’t exceed 100 mg daily)

Vit. B12 -- 500 mg 1x a day

Vit. C 500 -- mg 1x a day

Vit. E -- 200 mg 1x a day (not supposed to exceed 400 mg daily & multi has some)

Bilberry -- 470 mg 2x a day

CoQ -- 10 60 mg 3x a day

Omega 3-6-9 -- 1000 2x a day

Super DHA (like a fish oil)-- 500 mg 1x a day