Potential Causes of Plateauing on Very Carbohydrate-Restricted Diets

[aj_cohn]

Steve Hamley, author of the Paleo Premise blog, has posted an entry "Troubleshooting Weight Loss on Low Carb Diets (http://thepaleopremise.blogspot.com.au/2012/03/troubleshooting-weight-loss-on-low-carb.html#more)." It's rather long to post here, so I'll post just the conclusion:
If carb restriction is working for you that’s great, but if it’s not, then consider increasing carbs. Keep looking until you’re happy with where you are or the direction you’re heading in.

[cnmLisa]

If carb restriction is working for you that’s great, but if it’s not, then consider increasing carbs. Keep looking until you’re happy with where you are or the direction you’re heading in.

Hmmmm....
Dr. A had it right all along.
CLIMB the F'n carb ladder!

This is what many of the successful LCrs have figured out. You'd think when we advise this to people who are stalled out and been keeping to induction levels the whole time, you'd think we had suggested boiling kittens. And do they listen??? Nooooooooo...they thrash and whine and knash there teeth until maybe they finally try it and begin to lose again. Sometimes it just makes my palm itch:p (did that come off as cranky?!)

Just call me cranky pants this morning:)

[Judynyc]

Hmmmm....
Dr. A had it right all along.
CLIMB the F'n carb ladder!

This is what many of the successful LCrs have figured out. You'd think when we advise this to people who are stalled out and been keeping to induction levels the whole time, you'd think we had suggested boiling kittens. And do they listen??? Nooooooooo...they thrash and whine and knash there teeth until maybe they finally try it and begin to lose again. Sometimes it just makes my palm itch:p (did that come off as cranky?!)

Just call me cranky pants this morning:)
OK cranky pants! :lol: :p
But you're right! and it is crazy making!:daze:

AJ- good post and point! :thup: :agree:

[Liz53]

Hmmm, very interesting post - and responses. As one who 1) has been stalled for a while and 2) does not believe in boiling kittens, you've got my attention. Lots to think about......

The fact that Judy and Lisa have lost >100% of what they set out to lose makes this idea that much more interesting.

[MandalayVA]

Why is it that going the opposite way--dropping or even eliminating carbs--isn't suggested?

Then there's this:

Jimmy Moore has suggested his infertility and weight loss problems are due to low testosterone. I wonder if his weight increased only after he started exercising.

No, Steve, his weight increased because he's addicted to LC frankenfoods. I think he did manage to get off diet soda--he no longer posts his menus, claiming that they'd served their purpose, but in reality it was because people were getting on him about the frankenfoods, which he eats in quantity.

[Judynyc]

Hmmm, very interesting post - and responses. As one who 1) has been stalled for a while and 2) does not believe in boiling kittens, you've got my attention. Lots to think about......

The fact that Judy and Lisa have lost >100% of what they set out to lose makes this idea that much more interesting.
Great! I like your attitude! :thup: :agree:

Why is it that going the opposite way--dropping or even eliminating carbs--isn't suggested?
Really? You want to go there? :p :lol:

OK, how about adrenal fatigue and low thyroid function.
I've seen women doing M&E for years not losing anything and remain sure that they will. :rolleyes: Whats the definition of insanity?

I believe that upping carb levels(with good carbs) when stalled out for a long time will actually ignite metabolism.
Its like stoking a fire, it needs fuel and oxygen to burn. Take away the oxygen and it goes out, take away the fuel and it goes out. But with both, it ignites. :idea:

[Nancy LC]

I've been stalled at both higher and lower carb levels, so while perhaps this is true for some, it doesn't apply to everyone.

[Lois55]

I've been stalled at both higher and lower carb levels, so while perhaps this is true for some, it doesn't apply to everyone.

And I would also suggest that what works now, may not work down the road. I've done lower and higher carbs as well on this journey. But I found more success lowering carbs after having them high than the other way around.

[RuthannP]

Well, I purposely ate vegetable 26 carbs today to test this theory. Sure hope I won't regret it tomorrow morning when I weigh!

I assume that you don't reduce the normal level of fats when you do this - or that you don't increase calories drastically?

[PilotGal]

I assume that you don't reduce the normal level of fats when you do this - or that you don't increase calories drastically?when you raise your carbohydrate level, you must drop your fat/protein level..
otherwise you'll gain weight.
you can't have both...

that's why low carb is unforgiving...
and as Nancy said, "what works for some, may not work for others."

when i raise my carb level, i balloon! :agree:

[joel381]

Steve Hamley, author of the Paleo Premise blog, has posted an entry "Troubleshooting Weight Loss on Low Carb Diets (http://thepaleopremise.blogspot.com.au/2012/03/troubleshooting-weight-loss-on-low-carb.html#more)." It's rather long to post here, so I'll post just the conclusion:
He mentions this pretty early..
Some forms of exercise don’t agree with VLC diets. VLC dieters tend to have low glycogen stores, which are needed for intense exercise.
Yet often I see adamant statements from some that HIIT on almost zero carb works just fine. They must have a special physiology that can replenish glycogen fast without carbs, Peter Attia comes to mind as having this ability.

[RuthannP]

when you raise your carbohydrate level, you must drop your fat/protein level..
otherwise you'll gain weight.
you can't have both...

that's why low carb is unforgiving...
and as Nancy said, "what works for some, may not work for others."

when i raise my carb level, i balloon! :agree:


So, are you saying that I should keep the same number of CALORIES as I normally use - but just get more carbs in there WHICH WOULD OFFSET both protein and fat levels?

Or are you saying to eat enough carbs to get out of ketosis AND TOTALLY SKIP THE FAT?

[Liz53]

Not Pilot Gal,but my understanding is that everyone's body needs a certain level of calories per day - and of course that may vary from day to day according to activity. The advantage of low carb is that it takes you off of the blood glucose/insulin roller coaster that results in eating before you have used up all the fuel from your last meal - in other words you are eating for reasons other than true hunger. Once you eliminate that extra eating, you are back down to levels of food needed to fuel yourself, not to satisfy hunger brought on by low blood sugar. Less food and fewer calories without hunger allows weight loss.

What do you mean by totally skip the fat? It doesn't take much to keep you out of ketosis - >50 total carbs per day. There is still room for plenty of fat.

[JLx]

Thanks for pointing out that interesting blog post. I suspect that different reasons for plateauing are relevant to different people and at different times in their lives.

I think the cortisol connection is what's relevant to me right now, along with the adrenal fatigue and low thyroid function that Judy mentioned. I keep thinking if I drop my carbs, I'll lose faster but I don't.

Excess cortisol can hinder your weight loss efforts. Cortisol/stress increases ghrelin, a hormone that increases appetite [1]. ... Cortisol also increases intestinal permeability and inflammation [3], which are both major factors in obesity.

Some forms of exercise don’t agree with VLC diets. VLC dieters tend to have low glycogen stores, which are needed for intense exercise. This is simply because glycolysis (glucose) has a faster turnover rate of ATP compared with beta-oxidation (fat). In the same podcast Mat discusses how carb restriction and intense exercise cause a rise in cortisol and later, a fall in testosterone.

What about in women?

The last time I failed to keep weight off, it was during tax season as usual when I work long hours for a CPA, have a long commute and in general experience more stress. To counteract it I was exercising more to reduce stress when in hindsight, I think I only made things worse.

[Seejay]

Yet often I see adamant statements from some that HIIT on almost zero carb works just fine. They must have a special physiology that can replenish glycogen fast without carbs, Peter Attia comes to mind as having this ability.If you wait enough days between HIIT, glycogen stores get refilled with the glucose made from gluconeogenesis. Dr. Eades mentioned some research that showed that the first place "new glucose" went, was to glycogen.

Also, the amount of glycogen an athlete can store, you can train for it so you have more glycogen storage for explosive exercise. It's a training adaptation. Plus people vary according to their mix of muscle type and glycogen storage to begin with.

HIIT every day would be just as glucose-demanding as long hard cardio every day. I seem to remember most HIIT advocates also advocate days between sessions. Something that appealed to me :)

[joel381]

If you wait enough days between HIIT, glycogen stores get refilled with the glucose made from gluconeogenesis. Dr. Eades mentioned some research that showed that the first place "new glucose" went, was to glycogen.

Also, the amount of glycogen an athlete can store, you can train for it so you have more glycogen storage for explosive exercise. It's a training adaptation. Plus people vary according to their mix of muscle type and glycogen storage to begin with.

HIIT every day would be just as glucose-demanding as long hard cardio every day. I seem to remember most HIIT advocates also advocate days between sessions. Something that appealed to me :)
Thanks have been looking at this I may just be slow at the replenish thing, below is a paste from my journal March 21.

Still looking at this glycogen depletion thing, trying to make best use of what available information will help me or not. One item of concern is the time to replenish on low carb, this statement of "longer than one week" in the following article concerns me:

http://www.sagewoodwellness.com/Doc0006.htm
With adequate consumption of complex carbohydrates, coupled with extra rest, most of the glycogen replenishment occurs within 24 hours. If a diet high in protein and fat is consumed, glycogen replenishment may take longer than one week.

[PilotGal]

Yet often I see adamant statements from some that HIIT on almost zero carb works just fine. They must have a special physiology that can replenish glycogen fast without carbs, Peter Attia comes to mind as having this ability.

from Steve Cooksey's 30 day experiment of nearly Zero Carb eating: (1st week at LOW, LOW, LOW carb eating....)
My Exercises

Maximum weighted vest decline push ups (20 lb vest w/ feet on the picnic table) and jump squats (with palms on the ground). = 174 push ups and 186 squats.

Two days ago I performed 30 minutes of plyometrics ‘for lunch’ and then that night … I performed intense cardio for an hour.

Today, I set an all time high in 45 lb Kettlebell Swings in 15 mins … 171! :)

That’s where the “AHHG!” comes from… I’ll be 51 years old in June.

I truly am THRIVING…and not just surviving.

30 day experiment (http://www.diabetes-warrior.net/2012/03/25/very-low-carb-paleo-experiment-week-one/)

[joel381]

PilotGal,

Not sure what to make of Steve's ability on his 1st week of low carb, he maybe just better adapted to LC by design??

Not wanting to cause confusion, I should have worded my comment differently such as:

Yet I read adamant statements from some that advocate HIIT on almost zero carb , that there is no need to ever add carbs before a workout. Something to the effect that only elite athletes need to do this.

I did some more reading on this last night, it seems some people are just more suited too this I guess. Low carb works for me, just not with a lot of frequent recurring activity.

Looks like your doing well,
Joel

[RuthannP]

In my attempt to increase carbs to break a stall, did I do it wrong? Please critique my April 1st food entry list. Thanks.

[JLx]

If you mean April 2, then I see 13 net carbs and less than 1200 calories. This is you increasing your intake? ;)

I don't know how many calories I eat, but I estimate between 50-100 carbs per day, sometimes more and sometimes less. I tried Bernstein's 30 carbs a day or less when I was first diagnosed with diabetes and I hated it. I'm also going by the admonition from some old hands that what you eat to lose is what you will have to continue eating to maintain, and I know that there's no way I will continue to eat what I consider to be very low carb the rest of my life.

[PilotGal]

PilotGal,

Not sure what to make of Steve's ability on his 1st week of low carb, he maybe just better adapted to LC by design??what i was pointing out is that whether you carb up the day before heavy lifting, or you stick to Zero Carb..
there is no difference in stamina, endurance, movement, exhaustion...
as some people report.
there is no need to carb up, is what Steve is pointing out..
it gets tiresome for many.. to read that Zero Carb is not healthy-long term, when man began as Zero Carb and he was a pretty healthy specimen....

as facts prove.

[Judynyc]

If you mean April 2, then I see 13 net carbs and less than 1200 calories. This is you increasing your intake? ;)

I don't know how many calories I eat, but I estimate between 50-100 carbs per day, sometimes more and sometimes less. I tried Bernstein's 30 carbs a day or less when I was first diagnosed with diabetes and I hated it. I'm also going by the admonition from some old hands that what you eat to lose is what you will have to continue eating to maintain, and I know that there's no way I will continue to eat what I consider to be very low carb the rest of my life.

I bolded your words as that has been my experience too. :agree: :wave:
I still eat the same way I did to lose it. I use all of the phases of my food plan to manage my weight.
Because I weigh regularly, the info allows me to make choices for the day( how many portions of starches I will allow) depending on the info I got from my scale.
I too know that I would never want to eat a very low carb diet for life as it just doesn't work for me at all on a few levels.
We each need to do what works best for us as individuals...know thyself! :wave:

[aj_cohn]

I'm also going by the admonition from some old hands that what you eat to lose is what you will have to continue eating to maintain...

Those old hands are clearly not following Atkins nor drawing on the experience of the majority of forum members. Atkins' plan requires you to gradually add carbohydrates (from veggies, at first, then legumes) during weight loss until you find the amount you can eat and still lose weight. I've read about people who experiment with this technique and find that they can tolerate 50-70 g of carbs daily, including sweet potatoes, beans, and peanut butter. Personally, I need a bowl of chili w/ beans the night before my weightlifting workouts; otherwise, I peter out midway through them.

It seems as if you've loosened your food restrictions over time, and that's as it should be.

[Judynyc]

Those old hands are clearly not following Atkins nor drawing on the experience of the majority of forum members. Atkins' plan requires you to gradually add carbohydrates (from veggies, at first, then legumes) during weight loss until you find the amount you can eat and still lose weight. I've read about people who experiment with this technique and find that they can tolerate 50-70 g of carbs daily, including sweet potatoes, beans, and peanut butter. Personally, I need a bowl of chili w/ beans the night before my weightlifting workouts; otherwise, I peter out midway through them.

It seems as if you've loosened your food restrictions over time, and that's as it should be.
AJ,
I think that is exactly what was meant. Staying at Induction until goal doesn't give a person much leeway.
Gradually adding in carbs was what I did during my weight loss.
I'd keep pushing them in to see if I'd still lose. You could say that I pushed the envelope on my allowable carbs while in weight loss mode. :)

[RuthannP]

If you mean April 2, then I see 13 net carbs and less than 1200 calories. This is you increasing your intake? ;)

I don't know how many calories I eat, but I estimate between 50-100 carbs per day, sometimes more and sometimes less. I tried Bernstein's 30 carbs a day or less when I was first diagnosed with diabetes and I hated it. I'm also going by the admonition from some old hands that what you eat to lose is what you will have to continue eating to maintain, and I know that there's no way I will continue to eat what I consider to be very low carb the rest of my life.

My April 1st entry is not showing up in the monthly view. I ingested 121 carbs on April 1st and 1128 calories.

[Judynyc]

My April 1st entry is not showing up in the monthly view. I ingested 121 carbs on April 1st and 1128 calories.
Please just list here what you ate that day that added up to 121 carbs. I'd like to see it so that I can try to help you. :wave:

OK, I just took a look. Looks like you went for a chinese food buffett for lunch? Those carbs do add up like that.
What is it that you're trying accomplish? I know that you want to lose weight. Did you want to eat that many carbs(84) in one meal? :)

[JLx]

I'm also going by the admonition from some old hands that what you eat to lose is what you will have to continue eating to maintain, and I know that there's no way I will continue to eat what I consider to be very low carb the rest of my life.

I bolded your words as that has been my experience too.
I still eat the same way I did to lose it. We each need to do what works best for us as individuals...know thyself!


Not surprising you'd say that since you were one of the wise women I was referring to. :D

Despite my best efforts in the past to convince myself I wasn't on a diet but was changing my way of eating for life, I can see the difference this time when I know I have to and am changing my food habits for life. Dr. Bernstein's 30/carbs a day may be ideal for diabetes but for me it's a case of "perfect is the enemy of good".

[RuthannP]

Please just list here what you ate that day that added up to 121 carbs. I'd like to see it so that I can try to help you. :wave:

OK, I just took a look. Looks like you went for a chinese food buffett for lunch? Those carbs do add up like that.
What is it that you're trying accomplish? I know that you want to lose weight. Did you want to eat that many carbs(84) in one meal? :)


Yes, Chinese lunch, and I was trying to break a stall. Luckily it didn't do any more damage than it did.

Should I have eaten twice that many carbs? Or should I have added CALORIES (not carbs) to break a stall?

[Judynyc]

I'm also going by the admonition from some old hands that what you eat to lose is what you will have to continue eating to maintain, and I know that there's no way I will continue to eat what I consider to be very low carb the rest of my life.



Not surprising you'd say that since you were one of the wise women I was referring to. :D OH! THanks! :D

Despite my best efforts in the past to convince myself I wasn't on a diet but was changing my way of eating for life, I can see the difference this time when I know I have to and am changing my food habits for life. Dr. Bernstein's 30/carbs a day may be ideal for diabetes but for me it's a case of "perfect is the enemy of good".
Yes, I hear you on that! That is why I never did get into counting carbs.
I have issues with being controlled. :o I'm a bit of a free spirit that way and needed to find my own way. Thats whay I started out doing SBD and it morphed into a hybrid of Atkins and SBD.
"Progress not Perfection" an old OA saying! :thup:

[Judynyc]

Yes, Chinese lunch, and I was trying to break a stall. Luckily it didn't do any more damage than it did.

Should I have eaten twice that many carbs? Or should I have added CALORIES (not carbs) to break a stall?
No, you did fine with what you ate. ;)
Are you truly stalled, has it been 6-8 weeks with no loss?

Have you read the part of Atkins that talks about phase II, Ongoing weightloss?

When you add in carbs, there is an order to it with starchy veggies coming first. :idea:

If you are interested in carb cycling, there is a thread about it here somewhere. I'll try to find it for you.

[RuthannP]

"Have you read the part of Atkins that talks about phase II, Ongoing weightloss?"

Judy, I am in induction. I understood that I could stay here until I had lost a significant amount of weight and then could go to a different phase. I have lost only 14 pounds in one and a half months.

I was trying to break a "stall" while in induction. Or maybe I should say a VERY SLOW WEIGHT LOSS, not a complete stall.

I have personally observed through calorie diets that I could shock my metabolism and jump start weight loss again. I understood that this could be done on Atkins, too, which is what I was attempting to do.

[Judynyc]

"Have you read the part of Atkins that talks about phase II, Ongoing weightloss?"

Judy, I am in induction. I understood that I could stay here until I had lost a significant amount of weight and then could go to a different phase. I have lost only 14 pounds in one and a half months.

I was trying to break a "stall" while in induction. Or maybe I should say a VERY SLOW WEIGHT LOSS, not a complete stall.

I have personally observed through calorie diets that I could shock my metabolism and jump start weight loss again. I understood that this could be done on Atkins, too, which is what I was attempting to do.
I think that you should read the entire Atkins book so that you learn about the whole process., not just Induction.

You're not really in a stall. Following the plan by the book is the way for you for now. Its time for you to move out of Induction and onto OWL phase2, add in some starchy veggies. :)

[cnmLisa]

I think that you should read the entire Atkins book so that you learn about the whole process., not just Induction.

You're not really in a stall. Following the plan by the book is the way for you for now. Its time for you to move out of Induction and onto OWL phase2, add in some starchy veggies. :)

I agree...it could be time to move to OWL....but....starchy vegetables is run 8 on the carb ladder. Need to work thru the first 7 rungs before jumping to rung 8.;) This is the time that you determine your CCL and CCM---mandatory to maintain sucess when you get to maintenance.


With that said...

Did I miss something major in this conversation???


I have lost only 14 pounds in one and a half
months.


When is this considered poor progress??! 14 pounds in 6 weeks is excellent progress. Perhaps this really isn't an issue of food, but of plain, good ole' fashioned patience. (I wished I could have lost 14 pounds in 6 weeks)

Progress not perfection.

Lisa

[Judynyc]

I agree...it could be time to move to OWL....but....starchy vegetables is run 8 on the carb ladder. Need to work thru the first 7 rungs before jumping to rung 8.;) This is the time that you determine your CCL and CCM---mandatory to maintain sucess when you get to maintenance.


With that said...

Did I miss something major in this conversation???
Its about time you got back to this! :p :lol:
Here's a link to the OWL thread that Lisa put together for people like you, Pollyanna!

http://forum.lowcarber.org/showthread.php?t=409812





When is this considered poor progress??! 14 pounds in 6 weeks is excellent progress. Perhaps this really isn't an issue of food, but of plain, good ole' fashioned patience. (I wished I could have lost 14 pounds in 6 weeks)


Lisa is right! You are actually doing great! :thup:

[RuthannP]

Thanks, everyone. I just wanted to lose as fast as some of the authors of some of the success stories have! Why can't I? Am I chopped liver? :daze: I will try to be more patient. Thank you for the advice.

[Judynyc]

Thanks, everyone. I just wanted to lose as fast as some of the authors of some of the success stories have! Why can't I? Am I chopped liver? :daze: I will try to be more patient. Thank you for the advice.
No, you are not chopped liver! :lol:
Our age will make it so that we need to accept our rate of loss as a bit slower than when we were yonger. :idea:
As we age, we lose muscle mass. With less muscle, we lose more slowly.
Are you doing any exercise to build up your muscles?
Any walking?

[JLx]

pollyanna1 - I just wanted to lose as fast as some of the authors of some of the success stories have!

I'd be willing to bet that the people you are comparing yourself to with a greater rate of loss are either much heavier to begin with, men, younger or some combination of the three.

I think we all want to lose the weight yesterday but what I wonder is, has staying on induction for a long time while losing and then adding carbs after the weight loss not resulted in weight regain for people? Perhaps it can work that way, but my impression from posts here is otherwise.

[RuthannP]

"Are you doing any exercise to build up your muscles?
Any walking?"

I don't enjoy walking but today I got a new mini-trampoline rebounder. What fun! The literature says that 10 minutes on it is equal to a one-mile brisk walk. I am going to love using it! One poster (forgot who) said that rebounding tightens up skin, so I certainly can use that AND the cardio exercise.

[RuthannP]

I'd be willing to bet that the people you are comparing yourself to with a greater rate of loss are either much heavier to begin with, men, younger or some combination of the three.

I think we all want to lose the weight yesterday but what I wonder is, has staying on induction for a long time while losing and then adding carbs after the weight loss not resulted in weight regain for people? Perhaps it can work that way, but my impression from posts here is otherwise.

When I was younger, I could go on a 1000 calorie diet and lose 10 pounds in a month - easily. I remember losing 30 pounds in 3 months and my husband lost 40 pounds in 3 months.

But things have changed. I tried a calorie diet two years ago, lost 20 pounds, hit a 3 month plateau and got discouraged. I put it all back on - AND MORE. That was the first time that I had ever dieted and quickly put it right back on.

I began calorie dieting the first of this year and lost 10 pounds and then stalled. So I switched to Atkins and have lost 14 pounds. I suspect that Atkins can keep me from such long stalls and plateaus????

I am anxious to GET THIS WEIGHT OFF - NOW!!!!!!!

[Seejay]

The problem with calorie diets is sometimes you don't get enough protein and nutrients, if they are carb-heavy, and then you lose muscle mass and slow down your metabolism. that is the setup for the regain. So when you were younger, you started out with more muscle mass and a higher metabolism. But after that? hm

It sounds like you are a small older woman? I am too and I watch for this after I learned it in fitness school. Half a pound of FAT a week is a great rate for us to lose with and keep skin tight and keep muscle health. The fitness shriekers on infomercials who say to lose two pounds a week? that is best case with a young male!

[RuthannP]

"
It sounds like you are a small older woman? I am too and I watch for this after I learned it in fitness school. Half a pound of FAT a week is a great rate for us to lose with and keep skin tight and keep muscle health. The fitness shriekers on infomercials who say to lose two pounds a week? that is best case with a young male!"

Exactly! I am 61 and 5'2". Thanks for the half pound warning, but I sure hope I can do better than that!!!

[RuthannP]

Doctor warns against rebounding if 45+ years old.

Forgive duplicates, but I need to say this in EVERY POST where I recommended a rebounder.

http://forum.lowcarber.org/showthread.php?t=441596

[Seejay]

Thanks for thinking of us Miss Pollyanna1.

Just a thought - that is quite the blanket statement. Physical limitations over the age of 45 are individual based on lifestyle too. It's not automatically age.

Personally I would get an assessment from a fitness professional and my own eye doc before accepting such a limitation. MDs act like they are, but are NOT educated or qualified in food and movement. They are qualified for treating injury and illness with drugs and surgery, period.

Of course sure they can say, "based on what we see, you shouldn't jump if your retina can detach." But they are not thinking beyond that - how much jump, why are your retinas in that shape, do you have a high insulin lifestyle from no low level movement and so on and so forth.

I get the feeling sometimes that all docs want us to "walk" ie shuffle slowly as our ONLY "safe" exercise, as little old ladies, until we get even more frail and voila! bring on the blood thinners, HBP drugs, osteo drugs - all of which could be prevented by rebounding! sheesh.

[katchan]

I get the feeling sometimes that all docs want us to "walk" ie shuffle slowly as our ONLY "safe" exercise, as little old ladies, until we get even more frail and voila! bring on the blood thinners, HBP drugs, osteo drugs - all of which could be prevented by rebounding! sheesh.

They get kickbacks from Big Pharma, of course, so yes, that's what they want. I'm only 41 but I'm grateful that my doctor is a young woman who would rather I be healthy than doped half to death. She doesn't like me doing Atkins but she's happy to see that I'm getting veggies in, and that even though I have lost very little weight, my BP has come down significantly in a couple of months (to a high-normal level, albeit with meds. Soon I will be normal without!).