vegan, new to low-carbing

[LowCVegan]

Hello, all!

I'm male, 34 years old. I recently read "Why We Get Fat" by Gary Taubes and found the overall argument pretty compelling (although I think he gets some things wrong), so I decided to try doing low-carb. I started trying to eat low carb on 3/7/12, experimenting with different things and doing a lot of research. There is really not much out there in the way of practical advice for doing vegan low carb.

I've been vegan for 4.5 years. Back in 2010 I lost about 20-25 lbs (went from low 190s to mid-high 160s). I was reasonably happy with my weight at around 167, but not totally content. I think my best weight would probably be about 160 (assuming muscle mass stays about the same). I lost the weight basically by just not eating very much. It worked, but I can't say I felt particularly healthy when it was all done. And then the weight has been slowly coming back.

I had also become aware that something was off about my diet. Over the last 18 months a decent amount of the weight has come back (although my body composition is better now due to doing a lot of muscle building). My weight was going up, but I was also feeling unhealthy. So I started dieting on 3/5/12 and started reading "Why We Get Fat" that same day. By Wednesday I had finished the book and was already making a concerted effort to reduce my carb intake. So far, so good. I now know what it feels like to run on fat most of the time. It's a waaaay different feeling than when I was losing weight on a low-calorie diet. I've lost about 3-4 pounds so far (and I know it's real loss because I weigh myself daily and pay attention to my average weight, not the peaks and valleys).

After I started doing the low-carb thing, I started doing a lot of research about the nutritional content of foods that I was eating (and foods that I was thinking about eating more or less of). I was pretty disappointed when I realized that I was definitely NOT getting enough vitamins and minerals (V&M). And for the most part, I had been eating less-than-optimal amounts of a whole array of V&M for a number of years (I say "for the most part" because I did go through phases of better eating habits). So this hit me hard. Most days I was getting less than 100% of vitamin D, vitamin E, vitamin K, folate, pantothenic acid, calcium, iron, magnesium, phosphate, potassium, zinc and copper! Before I was eating nutritional yeast consistently, I was also probably low in thiamin, riboflavin, niacin and B6. I also found out that a deficiency in one can cause or exacerbate a deficiency in another (or example, being low in Vit A or Vit D can cause a secondary zinc deficiency, and I was probably not getting enough of ANY of them, except probably Vit A - good ol' carrots!). Vitamin C also helps you absorb iron (of which I was getting too little), and I wasn't getting C on a consistent basis. Folate and B12 levels are often highly correlated as well, and I wasn't getting enough folate.

So my two main goals now are to lose weight AND to ensure that I get 100% of V&M every. single. day.

The core of my diet is as follows:

*74 grams sesame seed, 54 grams flaxseed, 47 grams sunflower seeds (all ground up and drunk with protein powder in two separate drinks, one in the morning, one in the afternoon or evening) - this provides the majority of my minerals
*two 30 gram scoops of gemma pea protein powder - this provides a little over a third of my protein
*1-1.5 cups sauteed kale and turnip greens (with lots of olive oil) - this provided Vitamins A, C and K in abundance
*6 grams nutritional yeast (eaten with the greens) - B vitamins
*100 grams firm tofu OR one serving of beans or lentils (105-167 grams, depending on the type - always 20 grams of carbs per serving) - more protein, potassium, calcium, iron etc.
*2 brazilnuts - all the selenium I need

In the evening I'll eat a little bit more carby, at least in part because it makes it easier to eat with my wife or go out to eat with people). But I still try to keep it fairly low (making sure to eat 20 grams or less of "carby" carbs like rice, potato etc.). We often have stir fries and curries, so I just eat the vegetables and beans and/or tofu and really minimize the grains and whatnot. I'm still experimenting with eating other carbs, mainly for the mineral content.

When I first started I (more or less randomly) set 113 grams carbs as my daily limit, but now that I've figured out the details and realized that I don't really need a lot of carbs to feel full, I'm going to shoot for 100 as my goal this coming week. If this feels fine I may go lower still, maybe 90 or 80. I'm getting 130 grams (or more) of protein per day and I don't count fat grams, but between the seeds, olive oil and tofu, I'm getting a lot. And I'm totally okay with that. Fat is yummy.

I'm getting 100% (or more) of all vitamins and minerals with the exception of pantothenic acid and potassium. I still need to figure out a way to ensure that I'm getting enough potassium every day (I could eat cauliflower and broccoli every day, but honestly, most days I'm just too full!). Pantothenic acid is also something I have to figure out - it's just not available in high quantities in many vegan foods (or vegetarian food, for that matter). But I've figured out how to get 100% of everything else, so that's been really encouraging (and a huge relief). I also take a B12 supplement, which is standard practice for vegans (but I do get 50% RDA from nutritional yeast, and I'm considering doubling my daily dose just to get all my B12 from actual food).

So... I realize that this is not truly low carb. It's more like moderate carb. But we'll see where it goes. I might end up going pretty low, depending on how I feel and how bored I get of eating this way. I'm not in a huge hurry to lose weight as it's mainly just "vanity fat," so I'm okay with it possibly taking longer than it might if I went truly low carb.

I have not been all that lucky in finding good resources for vegan low carbing, but that's okay. I don't mind doing the research because it forces me to REALLY know what I'm doing, so then I can defend my choices to others. If you think it's hard to explain to people why you're low-carbing, try explaining why you're vegan low-carbing! People love to scrutinize what I'm eating (for multiple reasons), so it's good to be armed with data to defend myself.

Are there any other vegetarian or vegan low-carbers out there? Got any tips? I'm open to advice from anyone, just so long as it's given with the understanding that I'm vegan, so I don't eat things that come from animals. It's just the way it is with me. Being vegan for me is not about nutrition, it's about ethics, and I'm not here to debate ethics (and I imagine most people here feel the same way). I'm vegan, but I don't care if you are or not. I'm just here to learn more about low-carbing, so I'm open to info from anyone.

I am also pretty into strength training. My core exercises are deadlift, hang clean, barbell row, overhead press, overhead squat, front squat, back squat, bench press, weighted dips, weighted pullups and pushups (different varieties). I also do a little bit of the bodybuilding lifts (biceps curl, lateral raise, rear lateral raise), but my goal is primarily to increase strength (not to "get huge"), so I don't devote much time and energy to isolation/bodybuilding exercises. I put my energy into heavy compounds. I also run a little bit, usually 5k or less. If anyone else is into any of this, I'd love to get some advice on how you think low-carbing does or should relate to all of this.

Anyway... hello to everyone! I hope to get some good ideas and meet some nice people ;)

[MandalayVA]

First off, welcome.

Secondly, I think you've set yourself a very hard road to travel. Being a low-carb vegetarian is very doable since one can eat eggs and dairy. As a vegan? The lowest carb option is tofu, which has 2 carbs per 4-ounce serving, which isn't bad, but it doesn't have a lot of protein. You should be eating real food, not shakes and powders. Start eating coconut oil, totally vegan and a very quick way to add fat to your diet.

You're a young man and don't have much weight to lose. I think just upping your fats and losing the shakes and powders would go a very long way to getting where you want to be. Good luck!

[Liz53]

Have you read The New Atkins for New You section for vegans? It's still going to be tough, but at least you'll have a road map. Good luck!

[LowCVegan]

First off, welcome.
Thank you!

Secondly, I think you've set yourself a very hard road to travel.!
I'm actually finding it pretty doable so far. I just gotta figure out a few more things. But I guess time will tell if I get sick of it and lose willpower.

You should be eating real food, not shakes and powders.
I agree that the reliance on protein powder is not ideal, and I do plan to lessen my dependence on it (should've mentioned that). I started using it last year as a post-workout drink and I only increased my use of it just a few weeks ago when I began dieting. With all the muscle-building exercise I do, I need to ensure adequate protein intake, so that's why I'm doing it. It's just hard getting 130 grams of protein a day when you're vegan (actually, it's challenging for pretty much any diet - just more so when you're vegan). I'm experimenting with trying to eat even MORE nuts and seeds, and I'm also seeing how much volume of tofu and legumes I can reasonably expect to be able to do on a daily basis. My goal is to halve my protein powder intake in the next two weeks. I also may decrease my protein intake a bit as long as I continue to make gains with weightlifting (which would be a pretty good indication that my protein intake is adequate). 130 grams is probably on the high side for me. I'm just eating more than I truly need because I know that some protein-burning is inevitable when I'm eating only a small amount of carbs.

Being a low-carb vegetarian is very doable since one can eat eggs and dairy.
I hear what you're saying, but it's not like it's really EASY to get a huge proportion of your daily protein from eggs and cheese. At 9 grams a piece for jumbo eggs, and c. 7-8 grams per ounce for cheese, I'd be eating a LOT of eggs and cheese to get even 1/2 of my protein. I'd still have the problem of being too full. Because that's been a big part of the challenge so far. It's not that I couldn't get enough protein from the combination of nuts, seeds, legumes, soy products and (limited) grains. I totally could. I've done the math. It's just eating that volume of food on a daily basis gets challenging.

Start eating coconut oil, totally vegan and a very quick way to add fat to your diet.
That's a good suggestion. I've also been thinking about eating more coconut milk. It has good mineral content, it's high fat, and best of all, it's delicious!

You're a young man and don't have much weight to lose.
Like I said above, my TWO main goals are to lose weight AND to ensure adequate intake of vitamins and minerals. So I'm trying to make changes that I can stick with long-term. I'm willing to be patient with the weight loss. And I am committed to eating lowER carb for life. Probably not as low as what I'm currently doing, but certainly lower than what I was doing before. I just don't have room for all the nutrient-rich foods when I'm eating so many carbs. It just doesn't work.

[LowCVegan]

Have you read The New Atkins for New You section for vegans?
I had no idea. Thanks for the suggestion! I just put it on hold at the library, so I'll check it out this week.

It's still going to be tough
I don't think it will actually be as hard as you might think. I think that most non-vegans tend to overestimate how hard it is to be vegan. It's probably more work if you're the type of person who cares about having an optimally nutritious diet, but it's not exactly a walk in the park to have an optimally nutritious diet, regardless of whether you eat animal products. It takes work and knowledge no matter what. I just work within a narrower range of foods is all. One of the biggest challenges so far has just been a lack of information (websites, blogs etc.).

Good luck!
Thank you!

Also, does anyone have any advice or references/book suggestions about exact carb limitations? I know a lot of people do 20-60 a day, but I've been finding that I'm losing fat by doing 100-113 carbs a day, which is probably pretty high for most people here (I'm assuming).

Does anyone here use ketosticks? Do they work well?

[Rosebud]

Well, IMHO, the most optimally nutritious diet is one that includes animal products, which is why I'm wondering why you are vegan? If it is for religious reason, fine, I'd never argue with that, but if you believe you are being healthier by being vegan, well, you really are not. Just curious.

I hope you are at least supplementing with Vit B12?

[Nancy LC]

Just one small correction and I'll shut my mouth. :D

You can't really eat vitamin D, unless you eat the livers of animals or have it added synthetically to your food. If it is a synthetic vitamin D, it probably isn't the sort readily used by your body. D3 is a scary vitamin to lack since low levels affect your body is so many ways and is associated with lots of scary diseases like heart disease and cancer.

Most people don't get enough sunlight these days. We wear too many clothes and stay indoors too much.

Anyway, welcome to the board and best of luck to you!

[Rosebud]

I hope you are at least supplementing with Vit B12?
Oops, I see from your OP that you are. Sorry 'bout that.

[LowCVegan]

Well, IMHO, the most optimally nutritious diet is one that includes animal products
Diets that include animal products certainly can be optimally nutritious. So can vegan ones. It's not like there is only ONE type of diet that can lead to optimal health. Any optimally nutritious diet takes work, knowledge and commitment. Including low-carb, right? It's not like it wouldn't be easier to just say "f%$^ it!" and eat cake and cookies all day long. An optimally nutritious vegan diet does take more work and knowledge, but I am fine with that. The ethical ramifications of one's dietary choices should not be ignored. For me, I have very good reasons to have qualms about eating animal products, so I opt not to. I also want to be healthy, and that is totally possible. You just have to be smart about it.

If it is for religious reason, fine, I'd never argue with that
No, it's for ethical reasons. And why does religion get a free pass? That doesn't make any sense.

Listen, I know a lot of low-carbers are anti-vegetarian, anti-vegan, anti-grain, etc etc etc. That's fine. Whatever. I didn't come here to change anyone's mind about anything. I just came to learn.

if you believe you are being healthier by being vegan, well, you really are not.
I am aware that many vegans have cruddy diets. I allowed myself to slowly morph into one. Now I'm changing that. I'm getting healthier by eating a healthy diet.

If there is something that you think I'm getting too much or too little of (some macronutrient, vitamin, mineral etc.), I'm all ears. But unless you're talking about potassium or pantothenic acid (the two things that I still need to figure out how to get more of), I think you're barking up the wrong tree. I've done the math. I'm getting all the vitamins and minerals that I need and I'm getting my bodyfat percentage down to an optimal level (right now it's at an "acceptable" level, meaning that I'm already in pretty good shape).

I hope you are at least supplementing with Vit B12?
If you would have taken the time to actually read what I wrote before commenting, you would know that I do indeed supplement B12 and that I am getting half the RDA from dietary sources.

[LowCVegan]

Most people don't get enough sunlight these days. We wear too many clothes and stay indoors too much.
Yes, I should have mentioned this.

Yes, I do rely on sunlight for Vit D. It can be challenging living in the north, but I do what I can to get sunlight whenever I can in the winter. In the warm months I get plenty of sun, and from my understanding, one should be able to get enough sun in the warm months to carry them through the winter (please let me know if you feel this is inaccurate). I also supplement D3, and I share your concerns about the bioavailability. It's just something I do for an added measure of protection.

Once I've been on this improved diet for a few months I am going to get a full blood panel to check for all V&M. If I am low in certain areas I will take steps to correct that for a few months and then get tested again. If I still haven't improved, then it will be time to consider adding small amounts of meat to my diet (probably liver or some type of offal). I have qualms about eating animals, but I do not feel that my health should have to suffer for it. I'm not suicidal.

Thanks for the comment and the concern.

Anyway, welcome to the board and best of luck to you!
Thank you.

[Liz53]

While I think we should all eat the way that is best for us in all ways, the truth is that in terms of vitamins and minerals, except for vitamin C, eating meat allows us to get way more of them for fewer calories. It is a concentrated form of nutrition.

Now if you are able to eat 130 grams of carbs per day, you may be able to get bare minimum amounts that way. I'm glad to see you will consider offal if your health becomes compromised. Good luck to you.

[LowCVegan]

in terms of vitamins and minerals, except for vitamin C, eating meat allows us to get way more of them for fewer calories.
True, but is minimizing calories really the point? I don't think it is. If I can get the nutrients I need in the optimal amounts AND maintain an appropriate weight, I don't care if I'm eating 1,400 calories a day or 14,000.

It is a concentrated form of nutrition.
Right. Because you're eating an animal, an animal that itself had all of the required nutrients to make the muscle. And the majority of the animals that people eat are vegetarian (actually vegan) themselves.

Now if you are able to eat 130 grams of carbs per day, you may be able to get bare minimum amounts that way.
I'm not sure what you mean by this. I'm getting the majority of my minerals from seeds and legumes (low carb and moderate carb) and I'm getting nearly all of my vitamins (except E) from greens and nutritional yeast, which together contribute a whopping 5 carbs. Add in some cauliflower or broccoli to cover my potassium and whatnot and I'm all covered, all for around 100 carbs. What I've found out is that I don't really need to eat much "carby" fruits and vegetables to get my V&M. And if I wanted to, I could cut my carb intake even further (tofu instead of beans), but I'm losing weight doing 100-113 carbs, so why bother?

And it's not that I "may be able to get" the RDA of V&M, I AM getting the RDA of V&M (with the caveats and exceptions already discussed).

I thought about posting all the math, totals, calculations etc. for each nutrient, but I figured no one would care for that kind of detail. But I've done it. This is not guesswork.

I'm glad to see you will consider offal if your health becomes compromised.
Yup. Like I said, I'm not suicidal, I'm not a martyr. I know that it's possible for most people to be perfectly healthy (even optimally healthy) on a vegan diet, but everyone is different - we don't all process and absorb nutrients as well as the next guy. If I find out that I'm harming my health by being vegan, I will reconsider my dietary choices. Until then, I'm trying to be healthy AND stick to my convictions. So far, so good.

Good luck to you.
Thank you.

[Liz53]

Re: the calories comment...I was under the impression you still wanted to lose a bit of weight. I read an analysis just yesterday, I believe it was at Zoe Harcombe, but can't find the exact post right now, where she analyzes how many calories it takes to meet the RDA requirements on a meat eating, a vegetarian and a vegan diet. It took fewest with meat eating, most with vegan. Depending on how much you can take in each day you may be fine. I have to watch every calorie but you may not.

It sounds like you've done a lot of research. Good luck and let us know how you do.

[LowCVegan]

I was under the impression you still wanted to lose a bit of weight.
I do, and I have been. Everyone is different, but I'm finding that I'm losing weight on 100-113 carbs a day (and there have been a few days where I probably went over that). The carbs that I do eat are ALL very low GI, so I'm still keeping my insulin quite low. And as I said above, I could go lower if I wanted to, but it doesn't seem to be necessary for me.

I believe it was at Zoe Harcombe.
Is this the post that you are referring to? - http://www.zoeharcombe.com/2011/06/myplate-the-new-american-usda-food-pyramid/

It's an interesting post, but I'm not convinced that overall calories really matter a whole lot. At the very least, overall calories seem to matter less than keeping your body in a state where it can use its own fat as energy. I seem to be doing that pretty successfully so far. The weight is coming off. We'll see how it progresses.

It took fewest with meat eating, most with vegan.
That doesn't surprise me at all. Think about it. You're eating an animal that itself had to have all the essential V&M to maintain life. OF course the muscle (and fat) of that animal is going to contain V&M in quantities far greater than what is found in the (vegan) food that the animal eats. That's what bodies do. They get V&M from food and put it where it needs to be and burn off the energy/calories for fuel. Meat contains high concentrations of V&M for the same reason that your muscle tissue does. If I ate YOU, I would get all the V&M that you've worked so hard to maintain. None of this should be surprising. And don't worry - I don't eat people ;)

It sounds like you've done a lot of research.
I have, and it's made me feel much better about my diet. I know that I can get everything I need. It's given me peace of mind. If everything continues to go well, I need to start evangelizing low(ish)-carb in the vegan world (as well as increasing attention to V&M - a lot of vegans do not eat enough of the good stuff).


Good luck and let us know how you do.
Thanks, I will.

[Carina8]

I didn't read most of the responses... just want to give you my own. :)

I was on Atkins from June 25th until March 1st this year. I did lose weight and felt MUCH better than my Standard American Diet (SAD). I think that is because I ate anything I wanted, had plenty of sugar and bagels and whatever I wanted. Usually very sugar/refigned carb heavy. Then went to Atkins. I cut out all processed food (except for the occasional diet soda). I was eating meat/veggies/berries mostly. I'd also have whipped cream on my berries or just some whipped cream for a treat w/ cinnamon on top.

I started watching Netflix documentaries. Good ones like "Forks over Knives" and "Engine 2 to the Kitchen rescue" and my all time favorite "Fat, Sick and Nearly Dead" with Joe Cross. I learned about all the V&M our bodies need, and how much we don't need the animal products. That we get adequate protein from our veggies if we eat ENOUGH! It's hard to eat enough to get all you need without supplementing.

I read the book "Eat to Live" by Dr. Furman and am on his 6 week plan before going on the life plan. I find this to be the most nutritious plan I've found with the science to back it. I'm no longer convinced that low carb should be coupled with high protein. I instead believe that the "nutritarian" diet is ideal.

I eat daily:
1 pound raw veggies (mainly salad and all the veggies you can think of in it)
1 pound cooked veggies
1oz nuts/seeds (Omega 3s good fats)
4 servings fruits
1 serving grain (generally Kashi cinnamon heart to heart YUM)
1 cup of beans/legumes

Put the numbers into fitday or atkins or whaterver site you want to use to see what kind of nutrition you get with a diet like that. It's amazing! :)

[LowCVegan]

Thanks for your input, Carina.

Put the numbers into fatsecret or fitday or atkins or whaterver site you want to use to see what kind of nutrition you get with a diet like that. It's amazing! :)

I'm sure you're fine on (most) vitamins, but honestly, I don't see how that regimen would provide adequate minerals. It also seems pretty light on protein. I hear you on the high protein thing, but seriously, how many grams of protein are you eating a day? Based on some quick number crunching I did, I think you're getting probably in the neighborhood of 65 on the high end (assuming it's 5% protein by weight, which is on the high end for vegetables - 900 grams x.05), maybe as low as 40. This is adequate for some people, but I am definitely not one of them. With the weightlifting I do, I need to be eating an absolute minimum of 1 gram protein per kilogram bodyweight, which for me comes out to 81 grams a day. I actually do 1.6 grams protein per kg because I feel this more safely covers my protein need (I tear down my muscles three times a week by lifting heavy weights).

Have you ever used http://nutritiondata.self.com ? Honestly, I think you should plug your daily intake into there (which will require you to register, but it's super fast and easy) and then use the "My Tracking" feature to see what your V&M intake looks like. Based on what you're eating, I honestly don't see how you could be getting enough minerals.

Sorry, I don't mean to scare you or anything. I just think it's important to crunch the numbers yourself. I have read many vegetarian/vegan books, websites etc. that give dietary advice that just does not add up to good nutrition.

If you do realize that you need more, I highly recommend upping your intake of nuts and seeds. The sesame/flax/sunflower seed combo that I detailed above is an absolute mineral powerhouse (and makes a healthy contribution to your vitamin need as well). And grinding it and drinking it makes it much easier to stay in the habit of eating every single day. Just a suggestion.

Good luck with all you do.

[Carina8]

I just edited my prior post to include a cup of beans/legumes daily.

I do run the numbers, and your right... my protein is between 55-60g daily. My V&M are off the RDI charts though. I use a lot of chia and sunflower seeds. Ground flax is in there, but not often, not fond of the texture.

I also lift weights 3 to 4x/week. I started lifting June 2011. I know others who are and eating this way too.

My Vit D shows about 70%, but I supplement during the winter. Selenium and Niacin are showing around mid 60s to low 70s. 8 others it tracks are between 100 and 150%, and the other 9 it tracts are over 200%. Should I be concerned about the Selenium and Niacin being so low? Maybe. I know ALL of these Eat to Live numbers look better than my old Atkins numbers.

I haven't used that site, I use fitday.com (also free and easy if your interested) I'll try it out sometime. I'm always looking for new and exciting new resources.

[LowCVegan]

I just edited my prior post to include a cup of beans/legumes daily.
I noticed that. Beans are good.

my protein is between 55-60g daily
Hey, if that level works for you, then that's what matters, right? I just need more protein. I feel much better when I eat more protein. But I will eventually dial it back from 130, though, probably go down to 110 or so.

I also lift weights 3 to 4x/week. I started lifting June 2011. I know others who are and eating this way too.
Nice! Are you into powerlifting (high weight/low reps) or more bodybuilding (lower weight/higher reps)? And you feel 60 grams protein is adequate?

For me, the higher protein is at least partly psychological. I can not STAND the thought of my body eating its own amino acids when I work so hard with weights.

Selenium and Niacin are showing around mid 60s to low 70s... Should I be concerned about the Selenium and Niacin being so low? Maybe.
This is what we call one of those "good problems." Why? Because it's easy to fix.

All you need is two brazilnuts and a few grams of nutritional yeast every day. Boom. Done. Seriously, that's all it takes. Nutritional yeast is amazing AND it tastes awesome (even omnivores love it!).

Okay, well, I'm glad that you're on top of the numbers/data. It sounds like with the addition of nutritional yeast and brazilnuts you have your bases covered. That's excellent.

Out of curiosity, what is your carb intake like? And how about total calories? I'm still trying to figure out what my carb intake level should be at, so I'm looking for input.

I looked into chia seeds. They're really nutritious! The thing with me, though, is that I'm pretty frugal. Chia is like I think $8 a pound, whereas I get sesame, sunflower and flax WAY cheaper ($2.79, $2 and $1.79, respectively), so I just can't bring myself to shell out the extra dough for chia or hemp. How do you eat it? Is it tasty?

[mviesprite]

www.drmcdougall.com vegan website
vegangal.com
Have you seen these websites? Just for their general value.
Hello, I am not a vegan - was a vegetarian for 3 yrs but made a lousy one :) I still have many veggie cookbooks and eat that way quite a bit.
The few vegans I know look amazing. I don't think I could do vegan but I admire those who can do it. Just for the information, you might have a look at Suzanne Somers books for the carb rules she has...we do either pro/fats for a meal or carbos/nonfat and the rules are very different for each. I don't know how you feel about food combining, but I know it has helped me immensely and we follow guidelines for that as well. Perhaps it might help from the weight loss standpoint.
Good luck to you.
Kat

[mviesprite]

"If you think it's hard to explain to people why you're low-carbing, try explaining why you're vegan low-carbing! "
That was a crack up. Truly.
Kat

[LowCVegan]

That was a crack up. Truly.
Ha, glad you got a laugh.

I've really only had one experience with it so far, so hopefully it gets easier as I become better versed with the facts.

The other night at dinner the questions started coming once my (vegan) friend noticed I wasn't eating my pita wrap (I was just noshing the falafel and veg that came in it - I love falafel). And then the girl to my other side was trying to figure out why I didn't get the yogurt sauce with it (it never ceases to amaze me that people don't know if a certain food is vegan or not - uhhh... yogurt = dairy. how is this not obvious to people? oh well), so I was getting it every which way.

Then my other friend starts asking me if I avoid all carbs, or just refined carbs (this as I'm eating a few of the french fries), to which I tell her that I don't abstain completely from any carb, just that I try to minimize them. Then ANOTHER girl wants to know if I eat fruits, to which I reply "not really," which received an eye roll (didn't get a chance to tell her that I'm getting all the vitamins, minerals and fiber I need from other sources - some people just have an inherent mistrust of any diet that would limit bananas and oranges).

So, yeah, it should be interesting. A decent number of my friends are vegans and vegetarians, and they tend to be quite skeptical of low-carb diets because they just associate it with Atkins i.e. the meat and cheese diet. And then most non-vegan people tend to be pretty skeptical of vegan diets for all sorts of reasons. So doing low-carb vegan definitely makes me the odd man out in most situations. Oh well.

I'll check out those websites. What is the Suzanne Somers diet like? What's your carb limit/goal?

[tragedian]

The 'yogurt=dairy?!' Thing doesn't surprise me, so many americans have zero clue about what they're eating. There was a post a little while ago about a man who asked for a white bun instead of a wheat bun on his hamburger because he was allergic to wheat. Neither him nor the waitress knew what 'white' bread is made of. Just yesterday a coworker I'm helping start atkins brought in yogurt covered raisins, assuming they would be good for atkins induction, to ask me if they were low carb.

[Carina8]

Nice! Are you into powerlifting (high weight/low reps) or more bodybuilding (lower weight/higher reps)? And you feel 60 grams protein is adequate?

All you need is two brazilnuts and a few grams of nutritional yeast every day. Boom. Done. Seriously, that's all it takes. Nutritional yeast is amazing AND it tastes awesome (even omnivores love it!).

Out of curiosity, what is your carb intake like? And how about total calories? I'm still trying to figure out what my carb intake level should be at, so I'm looking for input.

How do you eat it? Is it tasty?

I'm kind of doing a mixture. I will start w/ a weight I can hardly do 2 or 3 sets of 6 reps, then work that up to 3 sets of 12, then raise the weight and lower the reps again. My most recent lower body was 3 sets of 12, w/ 60 lbs for dead lift, then squats, wide stance toe out squats, and lunges each leg holding 25 lbs. Not to bad (IMO) for an overweight 5'1" woman. :)

Oh... I have raw brazil nuts in the house, have to start eating them like a daily vitamin I guess. I don't have, and haven't ever tried nutritional yeast. I guess I'll have to pick some up next time I'm out and try it. Glad this is an easy fix. So easy I can't say no! :) Thanks for helping me out on this one!

I'm about 1400-1500 calories daily and around 175 carbs daily, protein 55-65, fat 65-70.

As for the chia seeds. I'm not a fan of dressing and would rather get my fat from nuts, seeds and avocado etc. So I take a tablespoon of chia seeds and 8-9 table spoons of water and put them into a glass jar in the fridge and it becomes a gel because the seeds will hold 9x their weight in water! So I'll put a little of that on my salad each day with a squeeze of lemon in it, or smashed or juiced berries in it to make a "dressing". The my leaves aren't dry, but don't taste like icky dressing! lol They pick up the taste of whatever they are in and don't otherwise taste like much. I also just put them dry on salads or in my cereal (I use 1 serving of almond milk a day) the cereal and milk get me my B12. It's my only grain/milk.

Everything else is plants. YUM color and variety and abundance galore! :yum:

[LowCVegan]

Neither him nor the waitress knew what 'white' bread is made of.
Wow. Bread is made from flour and flour is wheat. It blows my mind how people don't know something so basic. I think this is the type of stuff that people used to learn at home, but since so few people do any REAL cooking (by which I mean cooking that deals mainly with real, fresh, whole food ingredients) at home nowadays, maybe this is the type of thing that should be taught in schools. I've heard similar horror stories of large percentage of inner-city kids not being able to identify a carrot, potato etc. and not knowing that chicken McNuggets come from live chickens. It's really pretty disturbing how disconnected some people are from what they eat. Maybe we should all just be eating Soylent Green, right?

This is the kind of stuff that you run into all the time as a vegan. You can say 'no dairy' and still easily end up with a dish with butter or sour cream. You have to be quite specific about what you don't want sometimes. So, in that way, I think being vegan for so long will probably end up being good prep for eating out low carb. I know how to ask for what I want and (hopefully) not come off as too much of a pest in the process.

a coworker I'm helping start atkins brought in yogurt covered raisins, assuming they would be good for atkins induction...
I'm a little more understanding of stuff like this. I think it takes more practice and learning to know the general caloric value and macronutrient values of common foods. I myself was eating small amounts of raisins during the first few days that I was trying to eat lower carb. I ended up ditching them not because they have too many carbs per se, but because they just offer too little nutrition per carb. Not a lot of bang for your buck there. I think they would still be a decent choice for someone doing moderate carb if they were having sugar cravings that were coming close to breaking their will.

[LowCVegan]

I'm kind of doing a mixture. I will start w/ a weight I can hardly do 2 or 3 sets of 6 reps, then work that up to 3 sets of 12
That's cool. I used to do something fairly similar, except I started with 8 reps and would up the weight when I could do 12 reps. Actually, I pretty much still follow this scheme for the few bodybuilding-type lifts that I do as it's better for hypertrophy. But I was never into multiple sets, mainly because I found the logic/evidence behind one set training (http://www.exrx.net/WeightTraining/LowVolumeTraining.html) to be compelling and I always made good gains on it. Now that I do almost exclusively heavy compounds, just do a warmup set, then 5 reps, 4 reps, 3, 2, 1, (each time increasing the weight, of course). A few exercises I find I do get a lot better workout at higher reps (bench press and barbell row), so I do that, but for the most part I keep the reps low nd the weight as high as I can handle for that number of reps.

I don't have, and haven't ever tried nutritional yeast. I guess I'll have to pick some up next time I'm out and try it. Glad this is an easy fix. So easy I can't say no! :) Thanks for helping me out on this one!
No problem. I'm a long-time nutritional yeast user and proselytizer. It's so good and so good for you. It also seems expensive (sometimes $13 a pound or even more), but after you realize that you usually use it in pretty small quantities (25 grams in one dish is a LOT). What I've figured out is that just 6 grams (about a tablespoon) covers my B vitamins. If you're already at 60% with niacin, you'd really only need like 2-3 grams.

I'm about 1400-1500 calories daily and around 175 carbs daily, protein 55-65, fat 65-70.
Okay, thanks for that. I think 175 is the highest I've heard of for anyone on this forum. And this is resulting in consistent weight loss for you? If that's the case, I may be looking at an easier time than I anticipated.

[mamatigerj]

Welcome!

*74 grams sesame seed, 54 grams flaxseed, 47 grams sunflower seeds (all ground up and drunk with protein powder in two separate drinks, one in the morning, one in the afternoon or evening) - this provides the majority of my minerals

This is very interesting! Would you mind sharing the nutritional data for the seeds? I would greatly appreciate it.

[Carina8]

Okay, thanks for that. I think 175 is the highest I've heard of for anyone on this forum. And this is resulting in consistent weight loss for you? If that's the case, I may be looking at an easier time than I anticipated.

I'll look at the links on one set lifting, thanks.


175 I think will be high for my long term. I'd really like to keep it under 150. I know not a big difference. I am down 9.5 lbs in two weeks. This is also my first two weeks so I can't say that rate of loss will continue. I had been stalled since the end of December prior to this two weeks, and I also still have a lot to lose. I'll see when I'm closer but it's between 80-100 I'd say. So 10lbs is not a big percentage of my weight as someone who only has a small amount to lose.

[mviesprite]

"What is the Suzanne Somers diet like? What's your carb limit/goal?"
The beauty of it is we don't count all that - the diet is eat what you want from the allowed list (use common sense and don't go crazy just because you can have yummy things). and there are rules for combining. You don't mix your carbs with protein. Protein and fats go together and carbos and nonfat items go together. Low carb veggies go with anything. You wait 3 hrs befoe switching from a pro/fat meal to a carbo one. I'll skip the dairy rules and fruit since you don't eat them.
And you eliminate "funky foods" which are foods that don't combine well with anything...like avocados, olives, nuts, high carb foods like potatoes, processed "foods" like sugar and white flour. The premise is that when you eat a protein/fat meal, and then you have carbs - it spikes your insulin and thereby everything gets stored as fat. If you combine properly your body is using the fat reserves for fuel instead. That was a very nutshell overly simplified way to put it. She suggests if you are stalled or not losing then to cut back on the carbs, instead of having 5 carb meals a week, maybe cut back to 2...for example, I might have oatmeal with nonfat milk and some stevia and cinnamon - At lunch (3 hours later) I would switch to proteins and have a salad with full fat dressing as long as there is not sugar in it and a protein of my choice. It is suggested that the best combo is a carbos breakfast and then pro/fats the rest of the day, and I do find that works well. There are guidelines for vegetarians - I think what may help you is how you are combining your carbs/proteins. For what it's worth.
Kat

[mviesprite]

"I don't have, and haven't ever tried nutritional yeast. "
Nutritional yeast is delicious! I actually crave it and just slice tofu and dip into the yeast flakes and eat it like that. When I ate popcorn I'd sprinkle on that as well. Most people wouldn't like it like that but I do!
Kat

[LowCVegan]

This is very interesting! Would you mind sharing the nutritional data for the seeds? I would greatly appreciate it.
No problem.

http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/nut-and-seed-products/3070/2
http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/nut-and-seed-products/3163/2
http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/nut-and-seed-products/3167/2


All combined in the amounts I gave above, it looks like this:

Vitamins
A 0%
C 1%
D 0%
E 87%
K 5%
Thiam 107%
Ribo 23%
Niacin 35%
B6 61%
Folate 56%
B12 0%
Panto 38%
Chol 0%
Betaine 0%

Minerals
Calc 90%
Iron 87%
Magn 131%
Phos 133%
Potas 28%
Sod 9%
Zinc 70%
Copp 224%
Mang 204%
Selen 78%
Fluo 0%

As you can see, it covers most of my mineral need (as well as most of my Vit E, which can be hard for vegans to get enough of). It's really nice to have the majority of this all taken care of just by drinking two large cups of ground up seeds.

I know some people here are pretty calorie-conscious, so I gotta warn you that this is very calorie-dense (997 calories), especially fat (84 grams). But seeds are my major dietary source of fat, so I can handle it no problem. Plus, you gotta be getting your calories primarily from either fat or protein when you're doing low carb, right? Another thing to keep in mind is that it only has 7 grams carbs (for each of the two drinks) and a glycemic load of ZERO.

And since it covers so much of my V&M, I can eat little else and be fine. Today I just ate the seeds (with protein powder), sauteed greens and nutritional yeast and a soup (lentils and cauliflower - 26 carbs). And that covered all my V&M for the day. And I'm not hungry!

[LowCVegan]

The premise is that when you eat a protein/fat meal, and then you have carbs - it spikes your insulin and thereby everything gets stored as fat.
Yup, I can see that making some sense. I was just thinking about this today, in fact. The seed/protein shake is basically my fat/pro. I drink it in the morning and then don't consume any carbs until a minimum of 4 hours later. I hadn't really planned it that way, but that's what I've been doing. Now I'm wondering if I'm allowing enough time between my evening meal (generally a little more carby) and my nighttime fat/pro seed drink. Today I had plenty of time, but I think it's generally only an hour or two. I had this rule from the last time I dieted where I always make sure not to eat within two hours of going to sleep, so I try not to save food for really late in the evening/night. Does anyone have any experience with this? Is this a good rule to stick to, or do you think it's irrelevant if it's essentially carbless and all fat and protein?

It is suggested that the best combo is a carbos breakfast and then pro/fats the rest of the day, and I do find that works well.
Hmmm... so far I have been avoiding carbs for breakfast, with the thinking being that hopefully I'm running on ketones when I wake up in the morning, and hopefully I can prolong that into the afternoon before I eat some carbs. Why does she suggest carbs in the morning?

My other concern is that I do like to have carbs pre- and post-workout, which is always later in the day.

I think what may help you is how you are combining your carbs/proteins. For what it's worth.
I'm all ears. Give me more details if you think it's something I can apply to how I'm eating. Thanks.

[Liz53]

I know some people here are pretty calorie-conscious, so I gotta warn you that this is very calorie-dense (997 calories), especially fat (84 grams). But seeds are my major dietary source of fat, so I can handle it no problem. Plus, you gotta be getting your calories primarily from either fat or protein when you're doing low carb, right? Another thing to keep in mind is that it only has 7 grams carbs (for each of the two drinks) and a glycemic load of ZERO.



Just wanted to clarify since I was one of the ones concerned with calories above that I have no problem with getting your nutrition from fat sources. In the end, fattier foods carry more vitamins and minerals and tend to be nutrient dense. It's vitamins and minerals carried with a lot of sugar that would be more problematic for me.

[LowCVegan]

Just wanted to clarify since I was one of the ones concerned with calories above that I have no problem with getting your nutrition from fat sources.
That's cool. I actually thought that was standard practice for virtually all low-carbers, but then when I started reading threads around here I noticed that some people are also pretty into limiting their overall calorie intake, so I just wanted to provide the relevant nutritional info for people of both persuasions.

In the end, fattier foods carry more vitamins and minerals and tend to be nutrient dense.
Oh, absolutely! I've never really been into low-fat eating (or dieting), but it wasn't until I did all this nutrition research recently that I realized how true it is. If you want the V&M your body needs, you have to be prioritizing nutrient-dense foods in your diet, and this often means eating a good amount of fat (although maybe you could get by on lean meats? I don't really know and don't plan to put any time into researching that). I've become convinced that this holds even more true for vegans and vegetarians. Yeah, you could get a lot more of your daily V&M from vegetables, but most people just do not have the time, patience, dedication and stomach capacity to make that work for very long. And the thing with vegetables is that a lot of them are actually really nutrient dense per carb. The problem is that you have to eat such a ridiculous volume of them to capitalize on this.

It's vitamins and minerals carried with a lot of sugar that would be more problematic for me.
So far I really have not come across anything that fits that description. Carb-dense foods are generally poor in V&M. There are some exceptions to the rule (potatoes, sweet potatoes, carrots and some others do well in certain areas), but I'm finding it's a pretty good rule of thumb to say "if you care about getting V&M, do NOT fill up on carbs!"

[Liz53]

So far I really have not come across anything that fits that description. Carb-dense foods are generally poor in V&M. There are some exceptions to the rule (potatoes, sweet potatoes, carrots and some others do well in certain areas), but I'm finding it's a pretty good rule of thumb to say "if you care about getting V&M, do NOT fill up on carbs!"

I'm really thinking of fruit here. Vitamins and minerals are the justification I hear from carbophiles for eating fruit. There's virtually nothing that you get from fruit that you can't get from other sources - without the fructose.

[esam]

I liked how you broke out your core diet and how you have figured out most of your required v&m's (most people don't put that much effort into what they put into their bodies)
and some of us are looking for the quick fix to dump the weight, so we just do what worked with others. Research is invaluable.

well thought out.

and I respect your decision to stay vegan. I loved being vegan, but didn't make the healthiest go of it. Have read all the same books and seen the same videos as Carina plus some....

Good Luck on your journey!! Hope you find the support you are looking for!! (and the answers to those last two nutrients)

[LowCVegan]

There's virtually nothing that you get from fruit that you can't get from other sources - without the fructose.
So true. Greens have A, C and K in abundance (as well as some B vitamins and minerals) and nutritional yeast has basically all the other vitamins covered, so fruit isn't really "necessary" if you play your carbs right. But I may continue to eat bananas before workouts for the quick energy and for the potassium. Still trying to figure out if I can handle the carbos from it and still lose weight, though. I do intend to (hopefully) start eating more fruit after I increase my carbos again. I had a small banana today before working out and it tasted really sweet!

[LowCVegan]

I liked how you broke out your core diet and how you have figured out most of your required v&m's (most people don't put that much effort into what they put into their bodies)
and some of us are looking for the quick fix to dump the weight, so we just do what worked with others. Research is invaluable.
Thank you. Like I mentioned above, the last time I lost weight, I was happier with how I looked, but I didn't really feel all that great. After doing all this research I realized that I was taking a diet that was already deficient in V&M and then eating EVEN LESS of it! No wonder I didn't feel noticeably better. So now I'm not going to make that mistake again. I need to get healthy AND shed some excess poundage.

and I respect your decision to stay vegan. I loved being vegan, but didn't make the healthiest go of it.)
Well, I for one am not an absolutist about these things, even though I personally don't consume animal products. I think there can be great benefit to simply reducing animal product in your diet. Now that I know more about how to do that in a healthy way, I will be better able to tell others how to do it if that's what they want to do. I have seen some people become vegetarian and vegan since me (which always makes you feel at least somewhat responsible for it, for better or worse) and they're not necessarily better off for it in a nutritional sense. Hopefully I can reach out to them and suggest some changes after I get more of this figure out for myself. Seeds, baby!

(and the answers to those last two nutrients)
I'm actually researching that as we speak.

The problem with potassium is that some of the best vegan sources are from foods that are pretty carby (beans, potatoes, sweet potatoes, bananas, acorn squash) or it's fairly low-carb, but would require eating it in a volume that just may not be realistic day in and day out (cauliflower, broccoli, zucchini, white mushrooms). Avocado is rich in potassium, but I've yet to think of an appetizing way to eat it that doesn't involve carbs. Another promising addition is tomato paste. I'm going to experiment with zucchini (which I love) and see if I can fry out a lot of the water, thereby making it easier to eat greater volumes (I think potassium holds up well to frying, but I'm having trouble confirming this - anyone know?). And for what it's worth, all of this applies to vegetarians, too (eggs and cheese contain only very small amounts of potassium).

I also just read a journal article about how important proper sodium and potassium intake is for athletes on a ketogenic diet. So I think I might end up supplementing, at least for the time being. I'm still going to strive for 100% through diet, but I need to make take all practical steps to avoid impairment of my workouts, because working out is a huge part of my plan for overall wellness.

As for the other nutrient I need more of, pantothenic acid, I'm still having trouble figuring that one out. I'm running into the same problems as with potassium. Foods that offer a decent amount of PA are either carby (lentils, split peas, oats, sweet potato) or bulky (cauliflower, broccoli, white mushrooms). PA is also apparently readily destroyed by heat, and almost every way I can imagine eating these foods is by cooking them first. Sunflower seeds are a good source, but I'm already eating 48 grams of those a day, so I really don't think I want to increase that. Again, avocados are a good source, but same problem as before. One other thing I might try is crude rice bran, if I can find it and it's not too expensive. So I still have a ways to go to figure this one out. Right now I'm getting 59% from food (and 100% from a multivitamin, but I don't like to rely on supplements, if possible).

But I still have to do more research on pantothenic acid. I know there are very good reasons to maintain adequate potassium intake, but it seems that pantothenic acid deficiency is very rare, and therefore understudied. This has me wondering how the RDA of 10 mg was set, and the quality of the science that backs that up. It could be possible that the RDA was set based on population averages, and since the vast majority of people eat meat (which has plenty of PA), the average amount in people's blood may be way more than is actually needed for optimal health. I'm going to have to look into this some more.

But all this research had made me realize two things. I need to find a low-carb way to start eating avocados and once I start eating more carbs again, sweet potato is a great choice for both PA and potassium.

Good Luck on your journey!! Hope you find the support you are looking for!!
Thank you! I've been getting good feedback and ideas from plenty of people here already.

[pinkclouds]

Hi there! Welcome to the board! I have only read your orginal post so I apologize if you've mentioned this already but I was wondering where you get your brazil nuts? I can't find them anywhere unless they are in those cans of mixed nuts.

I admire what you are trying to do, eat healthier by eliminating unhealthy carbs while still sticking to your morals/beliefs. It takes a lot of discipline! Good luck :)

[LowCVegan]

I was wondering where you get your brazil nuts? I can't find them anywhere unless they are in those cans of mixed nuts.
I get them in the bulk bins at a co-op, but I'm pretty sure Whole Foods also carries them if you have one of those near you. I think some grocery stores may also carry them in the baking aisle, same place you might find chopped pecans, walnuts etc. They're usually quite expensive (mine were $9 a pound), but don't let that deter you. 1 or 2 a day is all you need for a full day's supply of selenium. A pound should last at least 60 days! Hope that helps.

I admire what you are trying to do, eat healthier by eliminating unhealthy carbs while still sticking to your morals/beliefs. It takes a lot of discipline! Good luck :)
Thank you! It's been an interesting journey so far and every day I feel more in control of my diet and nutrition. And everyone here has been so nice!

[Elizellen]

Welcome to the board :wave: It seems as if you have really got a handle on what works for your body.

I was surprised that you wrote Avocado is rich in potassium, but I've yet to think of an appetizing way to eat it that doesn't involve carbsas I have never eaten avocados with much in the way of carbs added.
I like them topped with prawns/mayo (the oldfashioned starter from the 1960's) or just sprinkled with salt and lemon juice. You could mash them and eat them like guacamole with some celery sticks to dip.

[Liz53]

Perhaps LCV is dipping tostados in his guacamole? I'm happy to dip my fork in.

[LowCVegan]

Welcome to the board :wave: It seems as if you have really got a handle on what works for your body.
Thank you! Yup, I'm trying to get that figured out in the context of low-carbing. So far, so good. 2 pounds lost the first week, 2.3 the second, things are looking good for the third week so far! And I'm getting very close to figuring out all my V&M in a way that I think I can actually stick with.

BTW, nice stats! That is some impressive loss! Way to go!

I was surprised that you wrote as I have never eaten avocados with much in the way of carbs added.
I like them... just sprinkled with salt and lemon juice. You could mash them and eat them like guacamole with some celery sticks to dip.
I'll have to try one of those methods. I've been avoiding celery so far because I think it would be too filling, and it's not particularly nutritious (especially in a quantity that wouldn't be very filling), but if it will help me do avocados low-carb, then it's definitely worth a try. Thanks for the suggestion.

Perhaps LCV is dipping tostados in his guacamole? I'm happy to dip my fork in.
Yup, you got me. I've eaten a decent amount of avocado in the last 3-4 years, but it's almost always been in the form of guac and always accompanied with carbs like tortilla chips, rice, tortillas or tostadas. I was having trouble thinking of a way without all that that sounded appealing. Call it a lack of imagination, I guess.

I bought two avocados last night, so once they're ripe, I'm going to give 'em a whirl, low-carb style!

[esam]

oooooh!! make guac!!!

( I could eat an avocado right out of the peel with a spoon and salt)
you could make a nut burger with all your seeds and spread guac on it!!!
I'm a huge fan of veggie burgers!!!!!!!


( I was a regualr member on Dr. McDougall's site for quite awhile, it's zero fat vegan). not much wiggle room for LC)

[Elizellen]

Another good dipping tool is flax crackers, which are easy to make.

Just mix equal volumes of ground flax (linseed outside USA/Canada) and water, let sit to thicken up then spread spoonfuls onto parchment paper or a silicone baking sheet and either microwave or oven bake till crisp.

You could also use the muffin in a minute recipe but spread out the batter thinly instead of putting it in muffin tins.

I make a very simple microwaveable slice of bread using 2 tablespoons of ground flax, 1/2 teaspoon of baking powder. 1 tablespoon melted coconut oil (or butter or any other oil/fat) and one egg which I spread out into about a 6"/7" diameter circle.
I bet if it was spread out thinner it would end up crisper and be like doritos/corn chips once sliced

[esam]

sorry Elizellen, egg isn't vegan
egg-replacer is an option, but I think it's a starch.......

[Elizellen]

Oops! Well maybe the flax crackers would do the trick.

[mviesprite]

"Is this a good rule to stick to, or do you think it's irrelevant if it's essentially carbless and all fat and protein?" I don't really know, but everyone I've ever asked about this who is thin and in good shape doesn't eat after 7 or 8 pm. I can't sleep if I'm hungry so...not sure about that. I probably wouldn't do carbs right before bed because they make me hungry.

"Why does she suggest carbs in the morning?"
They give you energy and you have all day to burn them off.

"I think what may help you is how you are combining your carbs/proteins."
"Give me more details if you think it's something I can apply to how I'm eating"
You can get her books at the library and just read what she says about combining foods, and about carbs. The first one is called Eat Great, Lose Weight and the second Get Skinny on Fabulous Food by Suzanne Somers. What I would do is look at everything you eat, figure out what is a carb and what is a protein - and see how you are combining them. You might be one of the carb sensitive types that would lose weight easier if you were to keep them separate - which would mean switching up some of your recipes ... experiment for a week and see if it works for you. I understand about doing carbs pre and post workout. You could just make sure your timing is right before switching back to protein.
I hope this helps - and good luck!
You've actually inspired me to try a vegan meal once a week.
- Kat

[mviesprite]

I wrote in the above post "figure out what is a carb and what is a protein " - what I mean by that is take a look at what Suzanne says in her books - use her list as to what is called a carb - her lists are designed by what works in combining. I had an ex who was a type I diabetic who drank because "there aren't any carbs in alcohol" - as I watched his blood sugar drop like a bomb every time and then I'd get the fallout - I'm sure you understand what I am saying - some things act like a carb in your body even if they say zero carbs.
Kat

[LowCVegan]

egg isn't vegan
egg-replacer is an option, but I think it's a starch.......
I don't think the egg or replacer is necessary in that recipe as flax is already a good binder itself. Gound flax paste actually IS a commonly used binder by vegans, so I hink it wold do just fine without it. And those flax cracker sound interesting. I've never heard of such a thing! Probably because the idea of low-carbing is as foreign to most vegans as veganism is to most low-carbers! Funny how that works.

[LowCVegan]

everyone I've ever asked about this who is thin and in good shape doesn't eat after 7 or 8 pm.
This is a rule I always tried to stick to, but I broke it fairly often. But I feel it did help a lot when I was strict about it. I would actually be hungry when I woke up. I'm going to stick with it for now unless I find out something different. No food within 2 hours of sleeping, maybe even 3.

I probably wouldn't do carbs right before bed because they make me hungry.
Definitely not. I'm ending my days with the fat/pro seed drink. It does have a small amount of carbs, though (even though it has a glycemic load of zero), so this has me thinking that I should err more on the side of 3 hours before bed.

They give you energy and you have all day to burn them off.
That's what I figured. It's similar to what a lot of bodybuilders do. They call if "frontloading" because you load more of your carbs into the front of the day. A lot of bodybuilders also frontload calories in general. I can see it making sense, but what I can also see making sense (and what I've been doing so far this week) is to try to prolong the ketone-burning you achieve overnight by depriving your body of carbs for an additional 3-4 hours after waking. And what I started doing this week is eating the majority of my carbs pre- and post-workout because I feel like I'm maximizing the usefulness of the carbs that way by using them for energy during the workout as well as for replenishment of glycogen stores afterward (which is very important for weightlifting). So far, so good. As long as my weight goes down this week...

I understand about doing carbs pre and post workout. You could just make sure your timing is right before switching back to protein.
I'll give it some thought. Yesterday I did basically fat and carbs (with a little protein) as a pre-workout meal. I hear what you're saying about keeping the carbs separate, and I can see it making some sense. I'm just not sure what I would eat that doesn't also contain a decent amount of either fat or protein. Does she offer guidlines on how much fat or protein is too much to be including with your carbs? So far I have been eating all of my carbs with a good amount of either fat or protein (usually both) to keep the insulin response low.

You've actually inspired me to try a vegan meal once a week.
Cool! Let me know how it goes.

I'm sure you understand what I am saying - some things act like a carb in your body even if they say zero carbs.
For sure. I don't drink (except for the occasional red wine), so that's not a problem. Alcohol definitely messes with your insulin/metabolic regulation, so I almost always avoid it. I also avoid diet soda and most artificial sweeteners for the same reason (raises insulin, make you crave carbs). The ony sweetener I use is stevia (TruVia) and I don't even use that much anymore. Are there any other ones you can think of offhand that I should know about?

[mviesprite]

"try to prolong the ketone-burning you achieve overnight by depriving your body of carbs for an additional 3-4 hours after waking."
I've heard this from many many sources - and probably your mom tells you the same thing! They say eating breakfast (not waiting hours) is better because if you don't eat 2-3 hrs before bed, then 7-8 hours of sleep (yes I hear some people actually get that!), then waiting 3-4 more hours before eating - that is like 16 hrs without food and your body thinks you are starving so it will hang onto the weight it has because it doesn't know when food is coming again.

" stevia - TruVia"..."Are there any other ones you can think of offhand that I should know about?"
I get my stevia from a bulk jar at the local health food store so I don't know what brand it is. There is a product called Just Like Sugar that looks and bakes like sugar www.just like sugar inc. com (no spaces) and Suzanne Somers has her product Somersweet that I really like. It also looks and bakes like sugar and tastes better than JLS. I use sweeteners pretty sparingly.

"Does she offer guidlines on how much fat or protein is too much to be including with your carbs?"
Yes there are guidelines. She doesn't mix carbs with proteins at all. Proteins and fats go together and you wait 3 hours before switching over to a carb/nonfat meal and vice versa.

So do you cook? What is your favorite vegan meal? Is there vegan comfort food?

[mviesprite]

"also changed my daily low-carb meal to a high-protein vegan one with the help of Robin Robertson's "Carb Conscious Vegetarian" cookbook." Just saw this in a post by a new person- have you seen this cookbook?

[LowCVegan]

that is like 16 hrs without food and your body thinks you are starving so it will hang onto the weight it has because it doesn't know when food is coming again.
I totally agree with this under "normal" circumstances i.e. not on a low-carb diet. Eating breakfast is definitely important. But doesn't the whole ketosis/trying to run your body on stored fat thing change this?

Maybe I need to clarify something: I'm never delaying breakfast in the face of hunger. I only do it if I'm not hungry. I guess I just figure that I must be running on stored fat at that point if I'm not hungry. Back when I was dieting on a "normal"/semi-starvation diet, I would wake up ravenous. Then I think the traditional "eat breakfast right away" logic holds sway.

Proteins and fats go together and you wait 3 hours before switching over to a carb/nonfat meal and vice versa.
Oh, so the carb meals are zero fat? I don't think I could hack that. But maybe I'll try it once I start upping my carb intake.

So do you cook?
Oh, most definitely! I've been told I'm actually quite good. That's probably a least partly to blame for my weight gain. I know some vegans that don't really know their way around a kitchen at all,and they just kinda eat a little bit here and there, and it actually seems to help them stay trim.

Yeah, I cook all sorts of things. The main types of cuisine I do are Indian, Thai, Chinese, Mexican, Mediterranean/Middle Eastern and Italian. I also do "fusion" of all of those quite freely as I think a lot of times the similarities between them are greater than their difference (Indian and Thai are quite similar in a lot of ways as are Italian and Mediterranean/Middle Eastern). But I've been cooking less since dieting. But I'll get back into it more once I start incorporating more carbs again. But it will definitely be a challenge to try to adapt some of the dishes to be lower carb. But with some of them it will just come down to increasing the protein content of the curry/stir fry/protein and vegetable and fat portion of it and hen just taking it really easy on the rice.

What is your favorite vegan meal? Is there vegan comfort food?
Wow, that's tough to answer. I love chana masala a lot. Pot stickers. Bean, seitan and vegetable tamales. Falafel. I make an awesome dish with tempeh, red peppers, mushrooms, sweet potato, ginger and sesame seeds (served over rice) that is fantastic. I also love Indian fried foods like samosa, pakora, vada. Dosa and sambar are also awesome. Okay, getting too hungry thinking about it! Oh, and soups! Vegan minestrone is awesome and my all-time fave is my vegan peanut butter three bean chili (and both of those soups are actually pretty suitable to low-carbing, now that I think about it!).

"also changed my daily low-carb meal to a high-protein vegan one with the help of Robin Robertson's "Carb Conscious Vegetarian" cookbook." Just saw this in a post by a new person- have you seen this cookbook?
Heard of it, haven't seen it. Let me know if you get it.

[LowCVegan]

So I'm just starting the fourth week of my diet. First week I lost 2.3 pounds, second week 2.1 and last week just 0.6. I'm a little bit disappointed that I didn't lose more weight last week, but I'm also not all that concerned about if for a few reasons. I understand that it's fairly normal to lose a lot of water weight (and some glycogen weight) the first two weeks, so I'm sure that was part of the reason for the greater loss at the beginning. This last week I increased my intake of potassium and sodium (two things which aid in water retention) after learning how important they are to athletic performance (especially while low-carbing). And I can tell that it's definitely been working, so I probably just gained back some of the water weight, which I'm fine with. Also, the increased protein intake (as well as just better nutrition all around) may have stimulated some new muscle growth (well... and the weightlifting, of course) and I'm more than okay with that. So, even though the number on the scale didn't move down a whole lot this last week, I'm still pretty pleased with the results I'm getting. My weight last Monday is +1.8 from what it is this Monday, so I should be able to bring my low for the week even lower than last week's. My wife says my stomach and chest are looking more trim and defined, so this confirmed for me what I'd been noticing myself (dips and pushups also help!).

As far as the diet goes, the only major change I've made is that I'm shooting for 100 carbs or less each day now. Last week I had a few days that were in the 70-80 range, but also a few days where I wasn't sure on the total (because of eating out), but I'm still reasonably sure I was under 100. Friday I think I was even under 60. I also changed up the ratios of my seed drink (less sesame) and brought down the total weight by about 17% (150 calories). I also decided to drink 60% of it in the morning and 40% of it at night, instead of 50/50. I also doubled my intake of nutritional yeast to help make up for some of the zinc I was losing by decreasing my sesame intake.

I also did more experimenting with exercise last week. I ran two 5Ks (Wednesday and Friday) and brought my time down by a minute each time, so that's good. It seems the low-carbing thing is not affecting that too much (the increased potassium and salt also seem to help). I decided to split up my weightlifting routines. I was previously doing lifting M, W, F and running Tu, Th, but I moved a lot of my smaller strength exercises to Tu, Th (pushups, dips, curls, raises) before my run. I think this was a good move because I can put more energy into my heavy stuff without being dog tired by the time I get to the smaller stuff. And when I do the smaller stuff, I'm going into it fresh. I also went bike camping this weekend, riding 30 miles each way (with c. 40 lbs. of gear). I was somewhat concerned that I'd have to increase my carb intake a lot to get through the rides, but I kept it pretty low-carb. I just ate a lot of cashews (pretty carby for nuts) and a few handfuls of raisins is all. I think I might have actually been under 100 both days. Biking is not all that demanding if you take it fairly slow and take breaks often. I also drank lots of water, ate enough fat and salt, supplemented potassium, and had some caffeine. The experience was encouraging because now I know I can still do the active things I like to do while eating (pretty) low-carb.

I also started analyzing my weight in a slightly new way. Up until now what I've been doing is weighing myself (almost) every morning and logging it. I have Excel formulas set up to spit out my low, average, and high weights for the week. I find that this is WAY more accurate than just paying attention to how low you can get your weight every morning or weighing in on Sundays or whatever. Fluctuations of 1-2 pounds is normal. Average weight is really more important, and if your average weight is showing a consistent trend downward, it's pretty much guaranteed that your high weight and low weight will do the same thing if given enough time. What I added this last week is what I call the "modified average" which is just my average weight of all days excluding my highest weight for the week (which so far has always been on Monday or Tuesday). I just think this provides a more accurate picture of what's happening because I tend to drop down as the week goes on, so it didn't seem "fair" to have that high weight on Monday or Tuesday inflating my raw average. In any case, I believe having more than one way to assess progress is good. I think people can make themselves crazy when all they pay attention to is the number on the scale every day (or once a week). Not to mention they can do stupid, counter-productive things like skimp on water before a weigh-in (as if this will ever keep weight down long-term).

So my average weight loss per week right now is 1.7 pounds. I suspect that average will get smaller as I go on, but I'm okay with that. But assuming it stays the same, I should be to my goal weight around May 20th, which would be fantastic. If my average loss drops down quite a bit, say down to just one pound a week, I will still hit my goal weight by 6/17 (which coincides with some major weightlifting and exercise goals). Now, if I'm losing less than a pound a week, I may need to rethink some things. I'll definitely need to consider what kind of gains I'm making with weightlifting to see if maybe I'm "shifting" weight (i.e. losing fat, gaining muscle), in which case losing less than a pound a week could be perfectly acceptable.

[mviesprite]

"But doesn't the whole ketosis/trying to run your body on stored fat thing change this?"
I don't know - I read Atkins years ago (the very first low carb book I'd encountered) and I don't recall how that all works.
" the carb meals are zero fat?"
Yes. You can do things like hummus and whole grain tortillas or wraps and veggies, cannelli bean spread on whole grain toast, whole grain pasta with some kind of veggie sauce as long as you don't use fats in it. You get the idea.
I love falafel! And I used to make Tempeh gravy over brown rice, that was a staple. It was actually nutritional yeast gravy from Laurel's Kitchen cookbook.
Robin Robertson has 3 vegetarian cookbooks out - I ordered them from the library. One is the low carb and one is a slow cooker cookbook.
It sounds like you are tweaking your plan pretty well - keep up the good work!

[LowCVegan]

Start of week 5 and everything is going pretty well.

Last week I lost 1.7 pounds, so the pace actually picked up! And I even had a little bit of cheating on Saturday evening (went out for pizza to celebrate getting a new job).

I also pretty much stopped counting everything. I know how much protein I need and I know (basically) how much I need to restrict carbs, so the counting became unnecessary. I still need to look up nutritional info online for certain things, and I still need to look at my spreadsheets to make sure I'm getting enough of certain V&M, but it's been really cool to be able to kind of relax the attitude toward it all.

I'm still keeping it between about 70-100 carbs per day, protein between 110 and 130. Eat your seeds, greens, yeast and beans/tofu, eat basically as much vegetables as you want, eat a little bit of "carby" carbs if you want, and everything else pretty much just takes care of itself!

I've also got my wife more on board with the program now, too, so that's cool. Last night I made a low(ish)-carb salad and she loved it! It was just fried cashews, onions, garlic, tomatoes, lemon juice, olive oil, salt, pepper, a little bit of brown and wild rice, and a LOT of parsley. It was sooooo good. She isn't fully on board with low-carbing by any means, but she has a better understanding of why I'm doing it and how it all works (practically as well as biologically), so she's more understanding of my "weird" eating habits.

I'm also continuing to make progress with weightlifting and running, so that just confirms for me that the weight loss is healthy weight loss (i.e. fat, not lean body mass)!

[mviesprite]

Glad you and your wife are finding your way - it helps to have someone on board with you. In case you didn't find them, there is a low carb vegetarian group on this site. I got the cookbook, haven't looked at it yet - I got her slow cooker cookbook but it wasn't something useful to me.
Kat

[LowCVegan]

In case you didn't find them, there is a low carb vegetarian group on this site.
I'm not sure what you mean. I've been in the vegetarian discussion thread section (http://forum.lowcarber.org/forumdisplay.php?f=109). Is that what you mean? Or is there something else?

[mviesprite]

The group is under Vegetarian Low Carbers - probably the same thread you are describing. There are groups like South Beachers, Atkins people, etc.
It sounds like you've found your way here :) So I wish you success in your goals and happy Vegan cooking.
Kat

[Kirsteen]

I don't eat things that come from animals. It's just the way it is with me. Being vegan for me is not about nutrition, it's about ethics, and I'm not here to debate ethics.. I'm vegan, but I don't care if you are or not. I'm just here to learn more about low-carbing.

I'm really impressed by this. I couldn't do vegan, but before Atkins I had a largely vegetarian diet, and I made the transition to low-carb easily.. Looking back on it, I just added in tofu, more oils, and more light vegetables, and I cut out the starchier choices. It was really quite easy, as Dr. Atkins' lists are so comprehensive. However, by choice, I started to eat more fish and shellfish, so the Atkins diet has changed my eating patterns, even though it wasn't essential. I thought I had a healthy diet before, because it was so full of good vegetables, unrefined foods, etc. but I wasn't careful enough about the nutritional balance of my diet, so I think my current diet is far more healthy. Reading Dr. Atkins book, plus doing low-carb, which kinda contradicts the official dietary advice, has resulted in me being a lot more "savvy" about food in general, through getting more clued up through internet pod-casts, articles, videos, etc. which ultimately can only be a good thing. If I did decide to eat purely vegetarian again, I'd be far better armed and educated to make better food choices.

I'm delighted that this diet is working for you, and I hope that you'll consider sharing some of your recipes in the recipe section of the forum, as there are probably very few purely vegan main meals.