William Li: Can we eat to starve cancer?

[Angeline]

William Li presents a new way to think about treating cancer and other diseases: anti-angiogenesis, preventing the growth of blood vessels that feed a tumor. The crucial first (and best) step: Eating cancer-fighting foods that cut off the supply lines and beat cancer at its own game.

http://www.ted.com/talks/william_li.html

The whole presentation is interesting, but be sure to watch till the end, when he starts applying his theory to obesity. (16:44)

[costello22]

Interesting. I'd heard of the anti-angiogenesis theory applied to cancer, but I didn't realize fat tissue generated the same sorts of blood vessels.

He talks about the need to eat the anti-angiogenetic (?) foods before the cancer develops. Possibly the same applies with obesity? Assuming it works at all, maybe you have to start before you get fat.

Interesting how the obese rat was slimmed down by the anti-angiogenetic cancer treatment - but never below a normal weight.

[Turtle2003]

Interesting. I'd heard of the anti-angiogenesis theory applied to cancer, but I didn't realize fat tissue generated the same sorts of blood vessels.

He talks about the need to eat the anti-angiogenetic (?) foods before the cancer develops. Possibly the same applies with obesity? Assuming it works at all, maybe you have to start before you get fat.

Interesting how the obese rat was slimmed down by the anti-angiogenetic cancer treatment - but never below a normal weight.

Since the graphic showed the obese rat being slimmed down several times and allowed to become obese again, I'm guessing the treatment works after the subject gets fat.

Also, I don't think he said that anti-angiogenic treatment would not work after a cancer is established - he showed several cures for animals with advanced cancers - but he pointed out that it didn't always work and that preferentially the treatment should be applied before a cancer can even grow beyond the microscopic, harmless phase.

[deb34]

http://www.ted.com/talks/william_li.html

The whole presentation is interesting, but be sure to watch till the end, when he starts applying his theory to obesity. (16:44)

I have heard of this before but this is the most non-science type presentation I've heard or read.

Did anybody get a screen grab of the antiangiogenesis food list BTW?

How does it correlate to LC foods?

[Hutchinson]

Natural health products that inhibit angiogenesis Part 1 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1891166/)


Natural health products that inhibit angiogenesis: a potential source for investigational new agents to treat cancer—Part 2 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1891180/)
couple of free full text papers that may be of interest.

Interesting to see Curcumin (turmeric) is inhibits angiogenesis and this isn't surprising as we know it activates the vitamin D receptor and Vitamin D also is anti-angiogenic so it's not surprising that Vitamin E (that also can activate VDR) is also Anti-angiogenic (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19443199)

I really don't know why Green Tea isn't the drink of choice for most people.
So long as you don't boil the water (of allow it to cool before brewing if you do) so it's OFF THE BOIL Details here (http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=foodspice&dbid=146#howtouse) and keep the brew time short. 30 seconds to at most 2 mins. then take the leaves (or bags if you must) out of the water (use a strainer) Remember you can get several mugs of tea from each bag/teaspoon of leaves. I generally use the same leaves all day, just by rebrewing with fresh water.

[costello22]

Since the graphic showed the obese rat being slimmed down several times and allowed to become obese again, I'm guessing the treatment works after the subject gets fat.

My understanding was that the rats were treated with a drug, not with food. I was wondering about the use of food as treatment or preventive.

Also, I don't think he said that anti-angiogenic treatment would not work after a cancer is established - he showed several cures for animals with advanced cancers - but he pointed out that it didn't always work and that preferentially the treatment should be applied before a cancer can even grow beyond the microscopic, harmless phase.

Again I was talking about food. My recollection was that all of the dramatic animal stories involved treatment with anti-cancer drugs. Then he transitioned to the idea of preventing cancer with an anti-angiogenic diet, so that those tiny cancers that many of us are walking around with all unawares don't grow into a disease state.

He certainly isn't suggesting that we treat full-blown cancer with food alone or that we give anti-cancer drugs to people without diagnosed cancer. He's proposing that we might prevent, not treat, with food.

By analogy, I'm obese already. I have the equivalent of full-blown the cancer, not the tiny potential cancer. Even if the drug could reduce my weight, that doesn't mean that eating the anti-angiogenic foods would be sufficient to do so.

It seems that if we apply the analogy of cancer prevention, the food may or may not be useful in preventing obesity, but I'm sceptical that I'll grow thinner if I start eating lots of tomato sauce and strawberries. I've already reached the "disease" state; too late for prevention.

[deb34]

Interesting to see Curcumin (turmeric) is inhibits angiogenesis and this isn't surprising as we know it activates the vitamin D receptor and Vitamin D also is anti-angiogenic so it's not surprising that Vitamin E (that also can activate VDR) is also Anti-angiogenic


very interesting, I've been meaning to get some curcumin supplements to help with inflammation... do you think that VitD and curcumin would be synergistic if taken together at the same time of day?

[costello22]

I really don't know why Green Tea isn't the drink of choice for most people.

I don't like tea?

Periodically I get onto a kick where I try to take up tea drinking. I drink it for a while, go back to my coffee, then find the old tea at the back of the cupboard a couple years later and throw it out.

[Hutchinson]

http://i578.photobucket.com/albums/ss230/tedhutchinson/tedangiognenisis.jpg

[Hutchinson]

very interesting, I've been meaning to get some curcumin supplements to help with inflammation... do you think that VitD and curcumin would be synergistic if taken together at the same time of day?I think they are synergistic but as vitamin D is fat soluble and curcumin isn't I doubt it makes much difference if they are taken together or separately. I take mine together with my breakfast which as it's usually fried in coconut oil has a high fat content but that's mainly to ensure the vitamin D is absorbed.

I've been using these (http://www.iherb.com/Doctor-s-Best-Best-Curcumin-C3-Complex-500-mg-120-Capsules/13?at=0)

Although at first I thought that having a high 25(OH)D is was possibly a waste of money for me to also be taking curcumin at the same time.
I've since discovered that in Alzheimer's different gene groups respond differently to either curcumin and/or vitamin D. This could be the same for other inflammatory conditions. Therefore by taking both you cover your options if you one of those whose genes respond more to curcumin than vitamin D.

[Hutchinson]

http://i578.photobucket.com/albums/ss230/tedhutchinson/angiogenisis.jpg
Here's another screengrab. Sorry about image quality.

Interesting to see Glucosamine listed in between Turmeric (Curcumin) and Green Tea. Those people taking it to help their arthritis may also be reducing their cancer risks.

[deb34]

great, thanks for explaining that. I'll go ahead and get it then.

[deb34]

http://i578.photobucket.com/albums/ss230/tedhutchinson/angiogenisis.jpg
Here's another screengrab.

interesting that the soy extract seems to be the lowest dietary factor to have this antiangiogenesis effect. That is, if I'm reading the graph correctly. It seems that women gag down enough soy products as some kind of talisman against breast cancer to choke an elephant...according to this it's the least effective.

But then half way up under grapes does it say that soy is measured again? Soy what? beans? or tofu or whatever?

[Starlight!]

I'd like to consume more turmeric but can't figure out how to do that aside from eating lots of curry. Any ideas? Or lost cause?

[WereBear]

I'd like to consume more turmeric but can't figure out how to do that aside from eating lots of curry. Any ideas? Or lost cause?

Here you go:

Turmeric supplements (http://www.google.com/products?q=turmeric+supplement&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&ei=EUOCTNvvBMOqlAfsu4WBDg&sa=X&oi=product_result_group&ct=title&resnum=3&ved=0CEgQrQQwAg)

[Hutchinson]

I'd like to consume more turmeric but can't figure out how to do that aside from eating lots of curry. Any ideas? Or lost cause?It's pretty cheap in capsule form (http://www.iherb.com/Turmeric-Curcumin) code WAB666 introductory IHERB discount code.

Or you could buy empty capsules (http://www.iherb.com/Now-Foods-Single-0-Gelatin-Caps-1000-Empty-Capsules/893?at=0) and fill them with Turmeric powder (http://www.iherb.com/Starwest-Botanicals-Turmeric-Root-Powder-Organic-1-lb/22718?at=0)

I've compared (tasted) the contents of a curcumin capsule against the spice Turmeric I use to put in curries and it looks and tastes the same, that is not to say they will be the same quality/strength but as there are reasons to believe migrants from Pakistan/India to higher latitudes, who retain their traditional diets, survive the lower vitamin D levels better than might be expected. The use of turmeric in their diets may well be the mitigating factor as Curcumin is a Vitamin D receptor ligand (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20153625) so culinary Turmeric may ?? work as well as curcumin bought in capsules however it likely that the curcumin extract that is combined with turmeric powder in capsules to provide a standardised amount of curcuminoids will be more concentrated and provide a more reliable source.

Curcumin has a reputation for poor absorption and low systemic bioavailability, so taking smaller amounts through the day, with food, may probably improve absorption.

[mathmaniac]

More than ten years ago, Dr. Judah Folkman's (physician and medical researcher at Harvard) angiogenesis research caused a stir that I remember from that time.

'William Li presents a new way to think about treating cancer and other diseases: anti-angiogenesis,

in the Ted website gave me pause. Because Folkman's name is practically synonymous with this approach. It was highly publicized, even on a national level (the words 'Nobel Prize' have been used a lot about this particuar research and this particular physician-researcher).

The excitement caused by Folkman's work is hard to forget. Google 'angiogenesis' and you will see that the enthusiasm has continued.

If you read the amazon editorial review, this is said:
'Folkman had been puzzling out a peculiarity of tumors: at some point during their formation, they sent forth chemical signals that in effect "recruited" blood vessels to feed them. If those signals could be intercepted through well-targeted drugs, Folkman reasoned, and the blood supply to cancerous formations thus interrupted, then the tumors themselves might be starved to death, or at least to dormancy.'

Sounds like what Li refers to as 'anti-angiogenesis'!

The statement is misleading, then. This TED presentation is about using food to do what Folkman's work has already been addressing. Not about a new idea - angiogenesis - presented by Li. That's not to say the talk isn't interesting. Just that the statement is misleading.

I'm a huge fan of TED. This is not the kind of mistake they make.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0375502440/theangiogenesisf

I read the comments that are attached to the TED presentation, thinking that there would be a reference to Folkman and his research. The comments were interesting - along the lines of comments you would find in any forum of non-scientists.

One person (Ayse Seda Dermirel, a Japanese physician-scientist) pointed out that there is research being done on foods: She listed the following (I'm guessing a good starting point because I have seen studies in NCBI on curcumin already...):
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20179671
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19491364
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16484577
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14628433
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11605065
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19969552 (himm cinnamon)

She also lists these:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20010532
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19139005


Another commenter, Matthew Motley, makes this point:

'**Anti-angiogenic drugs are part of mainstream medicine. They have been, and are being, extensively tested both alone and in conjunction with other drugs.

**Sadly, anti-angiogenic (AA) therapy has, in virtually every instance, failed as an anti-tumor agent in humans. This includes *Avastin (generic name - bevacizumab)*. From leading anti-angionesis researcher RK Jain, who is still a proponent of AA therapy and research: "However, randomized Phase III trials of bevacizumab with standard chemotherapy did not improve overall survival as second line treatment in chemorefractory metastatic breast cancer, or as first line treatment in metastatic pancreatic cancer patients. Moreover, three randomized Phase III trials of semaxinib (SU5416) and vatalanib (Table 1) – both anti-VEGF-receptor-selective TKIs – have showed disappointing results when they were combined with standard chemotherapy regimens" (link to paper: http://tinyurl.com/RKJAIN).'

And, in fact, that is the first question that came to my mind, hearing this talk. If it is essentially the Folkman idea - and it sounds like it is - then, as I've said, the fabulous success predicted for this therapy has not yet materialized. And this was THE promising Nobel Prize - worthy science when all the hoopla erupted around Folkman's work.

Motley comes up with his own NCBI link about curcumin:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19523696

NCBI is free and easy to use, open to everyone.

Another comment in the TED talks led me to this really interesting TED presentation: how does a cancer doctor think about therapies? Interesting talk.

http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/tur/david_agus_a_new_strategy_in_the_war_on_cancer.html

[kathleen24]

Thorne Research's Meriva SR is a curcumin supplement designed to get around the bioavailability issue. Thorne markets through clinics (alt health, chiro, etc.) rather than on the open market, so a little hard to find, but completely worth the search IMHO. I use it as an alternative to NSAIDs, COX-2's and it is WONDERFUL stuff. I pay about $30 a bottle for a month's supply, and have learned not to run out, or I'm back in pain in about 2-5 days. The fact that it's supposed to be good for your liver function, anti-oxident support, and cancer treatment/prevention is a nice bonus.

[lizzyLC]

Great thread.

[Hutchinson]

Thorne markets through clinics (alt health, chiro, etc.....I pay about $30 a bottle for a month's supply,
Thorne Research - Meriva-SR (Curcumin Phytosome) New Formula - 120's $18.00 $4.99shipping (http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B0012DABGC/ref=dp_olp_new?ie=UTF8&condition=new)

However I'm not sure that Doctor's Best, Meriva, Phytosome Curcumins, 500 mg, 60 Veggie Caps $14.99 Iherb $5 introductory code WAB666 (http://www.iherb.com/Doctor-s-Best-Meriva-Phytosome-Curcumins-500-mg-60-Veggie-Caps/23084?at=0) may not offer the same technology for better bioavailability a bit cheaper. I know they are only half as many but they are twice the strength (500mg not 250mg)

I haven't tried either of these so cannot comment on how they compare in practice The Thorne version is time release and the Dr Best doesn't make that claim so that may be an advantage worth paying extra for the Thorne version.

[kathleen24]

Thorne Research - Meriva-SR (Curcumin Phytosome) New Formula - 120's $18.00 $4.99shipping (http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B0012DABGC/ref=dp_olp_new?ie=UTF8&condition=new)
[/url]

That was exciting for a minute, but unfortunately, I am in one of their more expensive shipping zones, and it's a per-item shipping price, so it's back into the price range I'm paying. Durn it.



However I'm not sure that Doctor's Best, Meriva, Phytosome Curcumins, 500 mg, 60 Veggie Caps $14.99 Iherb $5 introductory code WAB666 (http://www.iherb.com/Doctor-s-Best-Meriva-Phytosome-Curcumins-500-mg-60-Veggie-Caps/23084?at=0) may not offer the same technology for better bioavailability a bit cheaper. I know they are only half as many but they are twice the strength (500mg not 250mg)

I haven't tried either of these so cannot comment on how they compare in practice The Thorne version is time release and the Dr Best doesn't make that claim so that may be an advantage worth paying extra for the Thorne version.

I appreciate your expertise and effort, not just on behalf of this thread, but throughout this site. Question: since both of them use the phytosome delivery system, how does one evaluate superior bioavailability. I know Thorne has some research and some numbers on that (http://www.thorne.com/articles/meriva.jsp), along with multiple trademarked cute-isms. I trust the brand and the doc who told me about it, but I'm open to other, less expensive ones if they do the same thing.

Regarding the SR---before this got my knee pain under control in a longer-term way, I would take these, and then think I was fine, and go about abusing my body in pursuit of whatever notion had taken me. I was taking it twice a day, and unfortunately, the SR wore off after about 11 hours--very suddenly, very noticeably--I wouldn't even be thinking about it, and then it would suddenly go south. I think it builds up in my system after several days of taking it, because overall my pain level has dropped a lot, and I no longer notice the wearing-off-suddenly aspect.

I supppose we are all an experiment of one. Since I have the dubious advantage of knowing if it's working for me, i could give the DB a whirl. Thanks again for your input.