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kevin142
Sun, Jun-03-07, 15:15
I've read in some post's here that not drinking enough water will stall weight loss. Some say it is because you retain water weight. Some say it is because your body needs water because you flush out fat and salt when you urinate.

I'm confused. If it's water weight, you'd still have to eventually loose weight because if you loose 15lbs of fat, I doubt your body is going to retain 15lbs of water... or am I wrong?

Is fat really flushed out of your system during urination???

Your help in understanding this would be greatly appreciated

lisabinil
Sun, Jun-03-07, 15:19
Dr. A states in my copy of DANDR that drinking plenty of water flushes out the byproducts of burning fat which are ketones. Well hydrated individuals (myself included) ketostix are usually a light pink or purple whereas some people who are dehydrated show as dark purple. Also drinking water helps pep up the metabolism.

MandalayVA
Sun, Jun-03-07, 15:23
WARNING: possible TMI ahead

When I'm eating clean, I notice that when I pee it has ... well, an oil slick. So obviously fat is leaving through urine. I drink about a gallon of water a day and if fat wants to go out that way I have zero problem with it. :D

LStump
Sun, Jun-03-07, 15:56
Both are correct. Water flushes out fat cells and ketones. Hydration is extremely important for this and it also keeps our bowels working correctly. Water also flushes out water weight. It sounds stupid and doesn't make sense, but some of our weight is in water and by drinking water we flush out that old water weight that is sticking onto us and you actually may lose a few pounds after drinking water.
Dieting or not, water is essential for good health.

tinaninea
Sun, Jun-03-07, 20:03
I don't have an answer to this, but I'm hardly drinking anything besides water and when I pee, it's super yellow (just since atkins) so I must say something must becoming out with the water!

amberview
Sun, Jun-03-07, 20:13
I don't have an answer to this, but I'm hardly drinking anything besides water and when I pee, it's super yellow (just since atkins) so I must say something must becoming out with the water!

The yellow is from your b vitamins.

dane
Mon, Jun-04-07, 02:55
Both are correct. Water flushes out fat cells and ketones. Hydration is extremely important for this and it also keeps our bowels working correctly. Water also flushes out water weight. It sounds stupid and doesn't make sense, but some of our weight is in water and by drinking water we flush out that old water weight that is sticking onto us and you actually may lose a few pounds after drinking water.
Dieting or not, water is essential for good health.You're not flushing out fat cells, but rather the waste products your body makes. You are correct about water retention, however--the body will hold onto water if not enough is coming in.

LStump
Mon, Jun-04-07, 06:51
You're not flushing out fat cells, but rather the waste products your body makes. You are correct about water retention, however--the body will hold onto water if not enough is coming in.

Yes it does. When you check for Ketosis that's excatly what you are checking for. Fat being burned by your body for energy. Its why marijuana users drink so much water a few days before a drug test. THC is stored in fat cells.

doobie
Mon, Jun-04-07, 10:47
You actually CAN hold onto 15 lbs of water weight relatively easily. What happens is when you start burning fat, your body will sometimes fill those empty fat cells back up with water (which weighs more than fat). So think about how many fat cells are in your body... and how much a glass of water weighs. If your body starts retaining water ~ 8 glasses per day, that's a lot of weight!

fetch
Mon, Jun-04-07, 10:54
LStump:

I think what dane was trying to correct was the use of the term fat cells.

When you "lose body fat", the actual cell itself (adipocyte) does not go anywhere. One does not lose fat cells unless they have liposuction. It is the fat stored as triaglycerol in the adipocyte's that is lost. When enough cells give up their stored fat for use as energy elsehere and shrink down, you have "fat loss".

danyelle
Mon, Jun-04-07, 12:03
so im amining for delpeated fat cells...not necessarily the loss of the entire cell

intereasting

txlashes
Mon, Jun-04-07, 12:59
Wow...wouldn't that be awesome to actually pee out fat cells! The ONLY way to remove fat cells from the body is through liposuction, but even then, if you gain weight the fat cells you do have just get bigger and take up the room the sucked out fat cells left. This is why is someone gains weight after having lipo it will cause them to gain weight unevenly leaving their body lumpy and "fatter" in some places...say more fat on the left side than the right side.

Drink your water and pleny of it...it's hard to do but oh so good for you. :)

mike_d
Mon, Jun-04-07, 18:15
Water is important, so is dietary calcium which may reduce the number of fat cells as obesity can increase them. Many overweight people manage to lose weight yet still cannot manage to reduce their total fat percentage down to a level where the abdominal muscles can be clearly seen.http://www.weightlossforall.com/fat-cell-numbers.htm

I seem to have too many fat cells around the middle and if I retain water that seems to be where it goes :(

fetch
Mon, Jun-04-07, 18:41
Water is important, so is dietary calcium which may reduce the number of fat cells as obesity can increase them.


I am ASSuming you are referring to information similar to this? http://www.webmd.com/news/20000417/calcium-low-fat-diet (Not the best example, but the quickest I could find....)

I am unaware of any study/scientific paper/article out there that shows dietary calcium reduced the number of adipocytes. If you have, please direct me to it, as I would be keen to read it.

lisabinil
Mon, Jun-04-07, 19:02
Here's a source http://health.howstuffworks.com/fat-cell.htm

LStump
Mon, Jun-04-07, 20:34
...funny how quickly things turn so technical sometimes...

I too have abdominal fat that I cannot get rid of. I just had my monthly weigh in and measurements done for the first time at Curves. In that month, I lose 9 pounds according to them (weighed with clothes on and food and drink in my belly, so it obviously doesn't count LOL) and 7.5 inches. NONE of those inches came from my stomach or waist. It came from my hips, bust, arms, and thighs. Odd.

fetch
Mon, Jun-04-07, 21:25
Here's a source http://health.howstuffworks.com/fat-cell.htm

Was this meant for me? It appears to be a "Fat 101" article. Nicely done, too. But I didn't see anything about dietary calcium causing a reduction in the number of fat cells. Did I miss it? :confused:

Aww, not technical. "Fact" as current science understands it. You know, the best thing to base an opinion on.... :D

LStump
Mon, Jun-04-07, 21:29
Yeah, but by saying fat cells, obviously people knew what I meant or else they wouldn't have gone and corrected me. I understand that yeah, actual CELLS don't get peed out, but come on, really, LOL. Oh well.. At least my point got across?

mike_d
Tue, Jun-05-07, 08:26
Good, but I have to question this statement:The conversion of carbohydrates or protein into fat is 10 times less efficient than simply storing fat in a fat cell, but the body can do it. If you have 100 extra calories in fat (about 11 grams) floating in your bloodstream, fat cells can store it using only 2.5 calories of energy. On the other hand, if you have 100 extra calories in glucose (about 25 grams) floating in your bloodstream, it takes 23 calories of energy to convert the glucose into fat and then store it. Given a choice, a fat cell will grab the fat and store it rather than the carbohydrates because fat is so much easier to store.Maybe, but only in the presence of lots of insulin? I read a USDA study that carbs alone were 3x more fattening than fats or proteins. The calcium study was based on paleo man consuming lots of small animal bones we don't do anymore. I think I posted that in the research news & media thread.

Bone meal anyone?

LStump
Tue, Jun-05-07, 09:35
Chew those bones up well! You don't want surprises going to the bathroom. Ouch.

mike_d
Tue, Jun-05-07, 10:23
Yah know? Dogs can eat raw bones, but not the cooked (brittle ones) when I eat canned salmon I enjoy the bones though.

I found the dairy calcium thread:

http://www.sciencenews.org/articles/20041016/food.asp

The concept fat cells can die and be removed from the body ... Its enough to make me reach for the calcium supplements.

http://forum.lowcarber.org/showthread.php?t=291820&highlight=cells%22+calcium

note: an interesting side is there is apparently little vitamin D in low-fat milk due to its fat solubility it settles out before it even gets to market!

LStump
Tue, Jun-05-07, 10:26
Yep, I eat the bones in sardines when they come in the can. Dogs can't eat chicken bones, though.

mike_d
Tue, Jun-05-07, 10:35
Yep, I eat the bones in sardines when they come in the can. Dogs can't eat chicken bones, though.The uncooked ones are safe-- mine eat raw frozen chicken all the time just like Eskimo sled dogs eat frozen baby seal.

LStump
Tue, Jun-05-07, 11:02
MMMMM frozen baby seal. The veal to the north.

Cajunboy47
Tue, Jun-05-07, 12:01
posted by fetch:

One does not lose fat cells unless they have liposuction.

Unfortunately, even if liposuction reduced our fat cells, our body can still create more fat cells...

this link provides more information:

http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/Press_releases/2004/06_21_04.html

excerpt: "Fat cells, or adipocytes, store the body's excess energy both by increasing their size by "stuffing" themselves full of fat, and by increasing their number. Stem cells are cellular "reserves" that hang around until told to change into another, more specialized type of cell."

..........................................................

I have not been drinking enough water, so I am very thankful for the information I've been reading at this link... Mo wata! Mo Betta!

fetch
Tue, Jun-05-07, 13:00
I found the dairy calcium thread:

http://www.sciencenews.org/articles/20041016/food.asp

The concept fat cells can die and be removed from the body ... Its enough to make me reach for the calcium supplements.

Thank you for the science news article. It allowed me to find:

http://www.fasebj.org/cgi/content/abstract/04-1971fjev1?ijkey=a87e85fc216f3f9dbafb10f4005ff8645311730e&keytype2=tf_ipsecsha

and other like

http://www.fasebj.org/cgi/content/abstract/02-0255fjev1?ijkey=97a67318a9f1bf00737d5d4311e4c53c4ad15b03&keytype2=tf_ipsecsha

Bottom line? Stimulating human adipocyte apoptosis has been demonstrated in several experimental paradigms and in vitro. Very exciting, indeed. You landed on the right word - concept. Not of fat cells being removed from the body, cell turnover is part of normal physiology, but of being able to speed it up or target it. I agree, it makes me consider playing guinea and buying supplementation....

mike_d
Tue, Jun-05-07, 14:19
I agree, it makes me consider playing guinea and buying supplementation....What is strange is the FDA recently blocked those 3-A-Day Dairy to lose weight ads as not proven safe or effective-- it might not work if the dairy is low fat due to low vitamin D and very high glycemic in dices.

I am planning next to try bone meal, vitamin D3 and magnesium oxide. My grandfather used to feed that mixture plus some mineral salt to our cattle on the farm and they went daft for it. They were all grass fed and still very healthy BTW.

What would be an interesting experiment would be to modify a phage or other virus to target human fat cells, then the T-cells of the immune system would destroy the infected cells. It would be too dangerous to try at our present level of understanding, and more fat cells could soon be made, but most likely not after puberty.

pennink
Tue, Jun-05-07, 14:44
I have a water question. My nephrologist told me that it's a myth that people need to drink 8 glasses of water a day and insisted that I limit my water to only 4. He said he doesn't know who started that silly rumour, but he'd like to know.

Anyone else hear this?

Terry-24
Tue, Jun-05-07, 17:08
There's always Urban Legends Reference Page (http://www.snopes.com/medical/myths/8glasses.asp):

Eight Glasses

Claim: The average person needs to drink eight glasses of water per day to avoid being "chronically dehydrated."

Origins: "You need to drink eight to ten glasses of water per day to be healthy" is one of our more widely-known basic health tips. But do we really need to drink that much water on a daily basis?

In general, to remain healthy we need to take in enough water to replace the amount we lose daily through excretion, perspiration, and other bodily functions, but that amount can vary widely from person to person, based upon a variety of factors such as age, physical condition, activity level, and climate. The "8-10 glasses of water per day" is a rule of thumb, not an absolute minimum, and not of all of our water intake need come in the form of drinking water.

The origins of the 8-10 glasses per day figure remain elusive. As a Los Angeles Times article on the subject reported:
Consider that first commandment of good health: Drink at least eight 8-ounce glasses of water a day. This unquestioned rule is itself a question mark. Most nutritionists have no idea where it comes from. "I can't even tell you that," says Barbara Rolls, a nutrition researcher at Pennsylvania State University, "and I've written a book on water."

Some say the number was derived from fluid intake measurements taken decades ago among hospital patients on IVs; others say it's less a measure of what people need than a convenient reference point, especially for those who are prone to dehydration, such as many elderly people.

The consensus seems to be that the average person loses ten cups (where one cup = eight ounces) of fluid per day but also takes in four cups of water from food, leaving a need to drink only six glasses to make up the difference, a bit short of the recommended eight to ten glasses per day. But according to the above-cited article, medical experts don't agree that even that much water is necessary:

Kidney specialists do agree on one thing, however: that the 8-by-8 rule is a gross overestimate of any required minimum. To replace daily losses of water, an average-sized adult with healthy kidneys sitting in a temperate climate needs no more than one liter of fluid, according to Jurgen Schnermann, a kidney physiologist at the National Institutes of Health.

One liter is the equivalent of about four 8-ounce glasses. According to most estimates, that's roughly the amount of water most Americans get in solid food. In short, though doctors don't recommend it, many of us could cover our bare-minimum daily water needs without drinking anything during the day.
Certainly there are beneficial health effects attendant with being adequately hydrated, and some studies have seemingly demonstrated correlations between such variables as increased water intake and a decreased risk of colon cancer. But are 75% of Americans really "chronically dehydrated," as claimed in the anonymous e-mail quoted in our example? Many of the notions (and dubious "facts") presented in that e-mail seem to have been taken from the book Your Body's Many Cries for Water, by Fereydoon Batmanghelidj. Dr. Batmanghelidj, an Iranian-born physician who now lives in the U.S., maintains that people "need to learn they're not sick, only thirsty,'' and that simply drinking more water "cures many diseases like arthritis, angina, migraines, hypertension and asthma." However, he arrived at his conclusions through reading, not research, and he claims that his ideas represent a "paradigm shift" that required him to self-publish his book lest his findings "be suppressed.''

Other doctors certainly take issue with his figures:
[S]ome nutritionists insist that half the country is walking around dehydrated. We drink too much coffee, tea and sodas containing caffeine, which prompts the body to lose water, they say; and when we are dehydrated, we don't know enough to drink.

Can it be so? Should healthy adults really be stalking the water cooler to protect themselves from creeping dehydration?

Not at all, doctors say. "The notion that there is widespread dehydration has no basis in medical fact," says Dr. Robert Alpern, dean of the medical school at the University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center in Dallas.

Doctors from a wide range of specialties agree: By all evidence, we are a well-hydrated nation. Furthermore, they say, the current infatuation with water as an all-purpose health potion tonic for the skin, key to weight loss is a blend of fashion and fiction and very little science.
Additionally, the idea that one must specifically drink water because the diuretic effects of caffeinated drinks such as coffee, tea, and soda actually produce a net loss of fluid appears to be erroneous. The average person retains about half to two-thirds the amount of fluid taken in by consuming these types of beverages, and those who regularly consume caffeinated drinks retain even more:
Regular coffee and tea drinkers become accustomed to caffeine and lose little, if any, fluid. In a study published in the October issue of the Journal of the American College of Nutrition, researchers at the Center for Human Nutrition in Omaha measured how different combinations of water, coffee and caffeinated sodas affected the hydration status of 18 healthy adults who drink caffeinated beverages routinely.

"We found no significant differences at all," says nutritionist Ann Grandjean, the study's lead author. "The purpose of the study was to find out if caffeine is dehydrating in healthy people who are drinking normal amounts of it. It is not."

The same goes for tea, juice, milk and caffeinated sodas: One glass provides about the same amount of hydrating fluid as a glass of water. The only common drinks that produce a net loss of fluids are those containing alcohol and usually it takes more than one of those to cause noticeable dehydration, doctors say.

The best general advice (keeping in mind that there are always exceptions) is to rely upon your normal senses. If you feel thirsty, drink; if you don't feel thirsty, don't drink unless you want to. The exhortation that we all need to satisfy an arbitrarily rigid rule about how much water we must drink every day was aptly skewered in a letter by a Los Angeles Times reader: Although not trained in medicine or nutrition, I intuitively knew that the advice to drink eight glasses of water per day was nonsense. The advice fully meets three important criteria for being an American health urban legend: excess, public virtue, and the search for a cheap "magic bullet."
Last updated: 31 December 2005

The URL for this page is http://www.snopes.com/medical/myths/8glasses.asp

Urban Legends Reference Pages 1995-2007
by Barbara and David P. Mikkelson
This material may not be reproduced without permission.
Sources Sources:

Batmanghelidj, Fereydoon. Your Body's Many Cries for Water.
Global Health Solutions, 1995. ISBN 0-962-99423-5.

Carey, Benedict. "Hard to Swallow."
Los Angeles Times. 20 November 2001 (Health; p. 1).

Foreman, Judy. "The Water Fad Has People Soaking It Up."
The Boston Globe. 11 May 1998 (p. C1).

Hoolihan, Charlie. "Body Needs Plenty of Water to Work."
The [New Orleans] Times-Picayune. 31 May 1998.

CNN.com. "Americans Need to Shake Salt Habit."
11 February 2004.

Los Angeles Times. "All That Water Advice Just Doesn't Wash."
15 January 2001 (Health; p. 7).

Los Angeles Times. "Readers Take Issue with Article About Water Consumption."
25 January 2000 (Health; p. 5).

The Toronto Star. "Distilling Water Facts from Water Fiction."
21 March 1999.



Cheers--
Terry-24

LStump
Tue, Jun-05-07, 17:14
I have a water question. My nephrologist told me that it's a myth that people need to drink 8 glasses of water a day and insisted that I limit my water to only 4. He said he doesn't know who started that silly rumour, but he'd like to know.

Anyone else hear this?

Basically, if you are thirsty, you are dehydrated. You are supposed to drink water BEFORE you get thirsty... 4 cups doesn't do it for me.

kevin142
Sat, Jun-09-07, 13:43
Just to let you all know, I've taken your advice and increased my water consumption. I still don't understand the science, but I've started losing weight again.

It crazy to think that something so simple as not drinking enough water could cause a weight loss stall, but I'm now a true believer.

Thanks for all the info!

Kevin

BayouBecky
Sat, Jun-09-07, 14:08
It's strange, but I'm glad it's working for you!

kevin142
Sun, Jun-10-07, 18:15
There is a difference between drinking enough water and not drinking enough water. Yesterday I only had about 24oz of water, and I felt really thirsty, my sinus's acted up, headache, and my neck felt swollen and puffy.

Today I've been drinking a lot of water, and I still feel thirsty. I don't have the sinus pressure, I don't have the headache, and my neck does still feel a little puffy, but not as bad as yesterday.

I guess once you start drinking more water you have to stick with it. None of that "24oz is good enough today, I'll make up for it tomorrow."

I don't know how I never realized that I was chronically dehydrated before I started this thread and started drinking more water. The difference is startling.

Kevin

Kisal
Sun, Jun-10-07, 21:49
Here's a good article (not too technical) about fat cells, salt and water retention:

http://www.primusweb.com/fitnesspartner/library/weight/scale.htm

mike_d
Mon, Jun-11-07, 08:19
Here's a good article (not too technical) about fat cells, salt and water retention:

http://www.primusweb.com/fitnesspartner/library/weight/scale.htmThat's a very good article and explains a lot-- that's why I don't sweat a several pound fluxuation unless it stays or my clothes shrink :agree: