What plan do you follow for SUCCESS???? : Pre-Maintenance & Maintenance : Active Low-Carber Forums

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Judynyc

Thu, Apr-13-06, 08:19

With all the talk around here lately about super low carb and no carb food plans, I wonder just how many people actually have success with them and get to their goal weights.

It appears to me thorugh my reading here, that atkins and SB are v ery similar in maintenance but differ at the start(induction and phase I) and OWL and phase II. They become more similar in Maintenance and Phase III.

For me, I would not have been able to sustain a M&E type food plan for almost 2 yrs to lose my weight. Nor a Paleo or other no carb plan. I enjoy and do well eating veggies and fruit.

I'm very curious about other people who have had success with their chosen plan. Who has had success getting to goal and staying there on M&E or other no carb plans? Who has had success on low or controlled carb plans?

In the end, its the success at getting to our goal weight and maintaining it with health and vigor, that counts. :agree:

Kristine

Thu, Apr-13-06, 08:57

Who has had success getting to goal and staying there on M&E or other no carb plans?

*crickets chirping* :lol:

Okay, in all seriousness... I've wondered the same thing, Judy. I'm all for trying new things. I've done a zillion different variations on LC, even the total carnivore involuntarily, when I've been snowed in or just too lazy to prepare veggies. But I'm amazed at how people are impressed by a concept that really doesn't have a track record. And no, I'm sorry, but one person claiming to have done it for decades isn't good enough for me. My definition of a plan "working" is strict: it includes (but is not limited to) overall health, ability to maintain a normal social life, enjoyment of food, and long-term sustainability. I will be impressed with the no-carb thing only after I see people posting here in the maintenance forum for a few YEARS.

My successful plan is still Protein Power, even though, as I mentioned, I've tried variations for different reasons, and for specific purposes, like changing my eating with the seasons, to cover harder workouts, or to give myself a "reality check" after straying off plan. Variation doesn't necessarily mean quitting or plan hopping, especially with a plan like PP which is sort of a design-your-own plan.

treefrog

Thu, Apr-13-06, 11:04

Great post Kristine.

I think what I have been doing is following Atkins OWL for the most part, and going back to an "almost Induction" when cravings start to get the better of me (like now). For me, that will be meat, eggs, LC veggies (salad, broccoli, cauliflower, spinach, cabbage, asparagus, etc.), nuts, berries and ricotta cheese. So the berries, ricotta, nuts, and extra cheese are where I vary from strict induction.

I have found it very hard to increase carbs in some planned way, to really determine what my personal carb level is. Maybe that is because my level is pretty low, and every time I start to add some extra carbs my weight jumps up. Maybe it is because the extra carbs cause cravings, and that leads to out-of-control eating on my part. Or perhaps I haven't done things correctly, slowly enough or whatever, to allow my body to adapt and accept it. Whatever the reasons, I am frequently having to go back to this "almost induction" state to curb weight gain.

This causes a dilemma for me as I don't really feel like I am in maintenance. But since I have been holding my weight between 120 and 130 for more than a year, I figure that is a kind of maintenance.

Just recently I tried doing meat and eggs. I did it for three days, and I have to admit that I didn't have cravings or feel the need to snack in the evenings, which I constantly have to battle. But I don't think my weight reacted any differently by doing that, then it does when I go back to my "almost induction". And it was rather boring, I'd rather be able to eat my veggies and cheese, thank you very much.

Enomarb

Thu, Apr-13-06, 13:13

I have been following some of the M&E discussions, but mostly use my "don't read it if you don't care about it" and "don't reply if you have nothing to add" strategies.
I have been on CALP for almost 3 years. I have no plans to change, or to eat differently. My plan meets all of Kristine's criteria: great health, good social life , enjoyment of food, and sustainability. I eat a tremendous amount of vegies, and wheat and grains and dairy. I know that there are very few of us on CALP, but after reading many LC books and knowing my body and my style of eating and life, this worked for me. I am a "by the book" kind of person, and am lucky that I have been so successful on CALP. I have not done any other plan, and was not on any type of weight loss plan for over 20 years. My goal was to normalize my CRP and lipids, and I have done that. Feeling so good on CALP has made it easier to stay OP.The weight loss and wearing a size 6 has been a bonus!
E

Jonahsafta

Thu, Apr-13-06, 18:11

Atkins maintenance works wonderfully for me...I adore veggies and eat them with abandon...the idea of eating just meat and eggs kinda makes me feel sick to my stomach...it feels so limiting and boring...but thats just me...

Bandito

Thu, Apr-13-06, 18:55

I have no idea what I would call my plan nowadays. I can't say "atkins" because I don't do the "5 gram incraments". I don't care what my carb level is either. I am kind of like treefrog in that I eat induction foods plus nuts, berries, hood milk, and the odd apple/pear which I share with my son. I am not a HUGE veggie eater, but I try to get at very least two-three servings in per day. I eat on average 5-30 carbs most days.

I eat NO wheat products.
I eat NO soy (except infrequent tiny amounts of veg oil)
I eat NO trans fats.

As far as my health goes, I have developed an elevated bp in the last year. (I have been LC for 3) I am not absolutly convinced that it is diet related becasue wouldn't it have been a problem in the first two years? I have been rotating the foods in attempts rule out a food sensitivity(AA). Could just be nerves. I am graduating with a bachelors in nursing in less than a month. Or it could be that I am in my early 30's now and I have inhereted the family curse. (everybody has it, and dies from it) My brother is only a year older than me and has HBP in the 190's. I average 110-145/65-80. I find it completely unacceptable to have readings in the 140's. Who knows, I could be a whole lot worse off if not for LC :thup:

leslieam

Thu, Apr-13-06, 21:32

Good thread, Judy! For me, it's been Atkins. I will have been on Atkins for a year in May and I can honestly say that it is now a way-of-life for me. I do not, however, eat wheat products except on very rare occassions because DH has Celiac Disease and I try to support him in his dietary needs.

I do, however, enjoy my LC veggies and recipes. And I an consistently maintaining my weight loss.

I love meat - I've always been a meat eater. But take my veggies away from me and I'd probably OD on mashed cauli. You'd find me on the street corner, asking for change so I can buy more ingredients for mashed cauli. :lol:

I've got to have a little variety - I'm too easily bored with food. Eliminating all but one of the major food groups just isn't an option for me.

Quote:
Who has had success getting to goal and staying there on M&E or other no carb plans?

*crickets chirping*

:lol: This made me laugh out loud! :lol:

ShayKNJ

Fri, Apr-14-06, 05:45

I am staying on plan which for me is a combination of PP & Atkins. I enjoy my fruit too much to ever give it up. I was thinking of M & E for a few days to break my stall but could not give up my daily yogurt and fruit.

My thought is to each its own. What ever works for you. But for me I need variety in my life, I can get bored too easy.

Jonahsafta

Fri, Apr-14-06, 06:30

" But take my veggies away from me and I'd probably OD on mashed cauli. You'd find me on the street corner, asking for change so I can buy more ingredients for mashed cauli. "

I laughed so hard I snorted my tea out my nose...Girl..Id be right there on the corner with you!

Judynyc

Fri, Apr-14-06, 08:14

I was thinking of M & E for a few days to break my stall

I'd do the same Sharon.....but not long term. I too, get bored quickly without alot of variety in my diet. I've used carb cycling to break out of stalls. :idea:

Leslie, I'm right there with you on the mashed cauliflower. I used to hate the stuff and now its one of my very favorites. I make it like garlic mashed :yum:

I obviously follow South Beach and I do alot of tweaking.
1-South Beach asks us to include beans/legumes twice a day, I don't do this as I eat hummus sometimes and chili sometimes but not all the time.
2-SB asks us to eat grains/starch 2-3 times a day in phase II, I ate them 2-3 times a week while still in weight loss mode. Now I eat whole grain crackers once or twice a day....whole grain bread as a treat once in a while.....dreamfields pasta once a week. Brown rice now instead of white.
3- I eat lots of veggies and I do not measure, I eat until I'm feeling satisfied.
4- I eat fruit 2-3 times a day.
5- I eat protein, obviously, lots of wild salmon, chicken breast is always in my fridge ready to eat, hard boiled eggs always ready to eat.
6- nuts and seeds once a twice a day and I do practice portion control.
7- yogurt each morning with a tbsp of flaxseed meal.

I try to avoid wheat and gluten as much as possible. I buy Ezekiel flourless bread. I've found these rice bran crackers that work for me.

I went out to eat last night ....chinese :yum: I'm going to have to pay for that meal for the next couple of days from the increase I saw on the scale this morning.. It was worth it but I cannot eat that food all the time. But we have to live and be social!!!

MeBLady

Fri, Apr-14-06, 09:42

*crickets chirping* :lol:

Okay, in all seriousness... I've wondered the same thing, Judy. I'm all for trying new things. I've done a zillion different variations on LC, even the total carnivore involuntarily, when I've been snowed in or just too lazy to prepare veggies. But I'm amazed at how people are impressed by a concept that really doesn't have a track record. And no, I'm sorry, but one person claiming to have done it for decades isn't good enough for me. My definition of a plan "working" is strict: it includes (but is not limited to) overall health, ability to maintain a normal social life, enjoyment of food, and long-term sustainability. I will be impressed with the no-carb thing only after I see people posting here in the maintenance forum for a few YEARS.

I see the M/E fasting as simply one of the trends that spurred from LCing dieting....basically, an extreme under the guise of forcing weight off faster.

By all means, there are exceptions -- doing so under the supervision of a doctor, eating parts of an animal that would replace the nutriants healthy carbs would give.

Overall....perhaps for a few days to break a stall at a last resort, but long term? Uh, no.

When I first started LCing, one of the things I did was listen to those who had been doing it for awhile, which I feel was a large factor in weight loss mode going pretty smoothly for me. I knew in advance what not to do -- and M/E fasts or "diets" was one of them. I watched ALOT of people try it long term, and I followed their progress. They all had trouble, especially when hitting maintenance mode, if they hit maintenance at all.

I've never done the M/E myself, but I have lowered my carbs down to 10-15 before. Yeah, it kicked my appetite down to nothing, and I could, really, live that way long term, as there are few veggies that I like and I don't have to have fruit....but after a week, I sure felt like crap, no doubt depriving my body of nutriants.

I researched a variety of LC plans and chose PPLP because it best fit my eating perferences and my weight/health goals. I don't regret it, I'm happy with it, wouldn't consider switching.

ShayKNJ

Fri, Apr-14-06, 11:29

I have to add this, from reading the M & E thread I find that many of them cheat and often. I believe this is because they do not have a big variety and they get bored or are so restricted they end up cheating.

Doing other plans such things as having a bar or LC ice cream or SF candy is okay as long as you allow for it carb wise, it is not considered a cheat. This is an more livable enjoyable lifestyle.

MeBLady

Fri, Apr-14-06, 15:36

I have to add this, from reading the M & E thread I find that many of them cheat and often. I believe this is because they do not have a big variety and they get bored or are so restricted they end up cheating.

The people I watched struggled with getting off the fast....mentally developed a fear of all carbs, and physically had problems adding them back in without weight gain/bloating. Nutricianal deficiencies -- posted a lot about additional supplements. THEN they cheated. THEN, they disappeared. LOL.

I think a lot of this is because of the lack of variety, yes. However, I think this is also alot like a starvation mode -- losing weight like this long term, the body gets starved for nutriants and will lock on to fat/water as soon as one tries to return to eating "normally", and eventually, hunger/cravings will kick in resulting in a binge.

Judynyc

Fri, Apr-14-06, 17:03

mentally developed a fear of all carbs

:agree: Yes Lori!!! I've been calling it "carbphobia". ;)

JandLsMom

Sat, Apr-15-06, 11:12

I tried eating M/E. The first time i lasted 3 days and the second time i lasted 10 days. I will say it took away my cravings and my hunger. The non-variety is enough to kill ya though. Even though i had no actual cravings, i did feel bored out of my mind, especially with my son and hubby on Atkins and having to cook them their veggies every night and watching them eat protein bars and LC fudsicles and losing faster than i was!!
I realized that i need something thats doable for LIFE. This isnt a diet, its a WOL! Variety is the spice of life. Bear is RIGHT about acculturation. We are used to variety. Its hard enough giving up all the white flour products, breads, pastas, sugar, candy, cookies etc...let alone giving up all nuts, veggies and fruits. It was pretty much like torture to me! I ate a slice of apple yesterday..my first fruit in 52 days and i must say it was HEAVENLY!! lol
Grains dont agree with me at all so i really have no intention of ever adding them back into my diet. What i feel will work in maintenance and long term for me is the following: meat, fish, eggs, veggies, fruit, berries, nuts, butter, cream and possibly cheese..im wavering on the cheese though! I know i am very carb sensitive and have some insulin resistance. i spent way too many years as a carb addict. I do believe there is a huge difference between carbs found in veggies, fruit and nuts vs. carbs found in white bread, pasta noodles and reeses peanut butter cups! I am also trying to stay away from artificial sweetners because i know they are FAKE and just not good for me in any way. I do drink 1-2 cups of coffee in the morning with heavy cream, and i drink water and green tea the rest of the day! (i suppose i SHOULD try giving up my coffee..and will work on that)
I love the support on this board and love learning from others experiences! Thanks all for sharing!

Jiggerz

Sat, Apr-15-06, 11:16

Let's just change the title of the thread to, "Come join the bashing!" :)

Judynyc

Sat, Apr-15-06, 11:25

Let's just change the title of the thread to, "Come join the bashing!" :)

Nope!! :nono: This is not bashing at all...rather an effort at making a very valid point. :idea:

I say this because I posed this question in the Maintenance forum, where those who post have gotten to or are near their goals. We are not newbies looking for fast weight loss and our experiences and viewpoints are very valuable. :D

foxgluvs

Sat, Apr-15-06, 12:07

I love this thread :) Thanks for posting it Judy. I often look at those 'plans' and I think there's absolutely no way I could follow anything like that, egg & meat or totally meat or anything like that would drive me nuts after a while. I like my food too much, in fact, I LOVE my food so much better now that it's working for me and helping me lose weight!!!!!!

The thing I love about my plan is that I don't have to be seen as a social outcast....what I mean by that is that I can go to a party and join in with the eating....so I can't have the chips and dip, but I can have veggies and dip....with a little tweeking I can eat along side my friends and not feel like I have to sit with a plate of boiled eggs or whatever these people are eating! (what the heck DO they have to eat if they just eat meat and eggs for heavens sake??)

I could never invisige eating like that long term....I mean, how freeking boring.

I'm sure it works for some (although I am still waiting for the evidence) and fine, if that's the way they chose to eat, then who am I to disagree, but for the main part, I see SO MUCH MORE sucess from people who eat a varied diet than those on what I would view as quick fix plans.

Anyway, hope I haven't over stepped the mark by posting in here (I haven't hit goal yet) but I thought it was a very good topic to discuss!

MeBLady

Sat, Apr-15-06, 12:56

Let's just change the title of the thread to, "Come join the bashing!" :)

If you disagree with anything being posted in this thread, why not give some opinions of your own rather than dismiss this as "bashing"?

You have m/e listed as your "plan" and have been LCing since 2004....definitely long enough to accumulate some experiences with what works best for you.

Do you feel that following the m/e WOE has provided you with great success in weight loss and improved your health?

leslieam

Sat, Apr-15-06, 20:19

Do you feel that following the m/e WOE has provided you with great success in weight loss and improved your health?

Good point, Lori and I agree. Jiggerz, I'd like to hear your story on the m/e WOE - have you had weight loss success? Has your health improved? How do you keep variety in your diet? Do you anticipate doing m/e forever? :q:

I don't think it's the intent of anyone to bash the m/e WOE - my motto is "to each his own". :agree: After all, I'm doing Atkins and I have people in my family that just expect me to drop dead from a heart attack any day now. :lol:

Try4Me

Sun, Apr-16-06, 13:59

My plan is also Protein Power. I started in June of 2004. I lost 40 pounds in about 6-7 months. Maintained for over a year. Then I did stray back to my old habits and gained 10 pounds. (We are human after all).

In February of this year, I was ready to do something drastic, and yes, I tried the M/E. It does control your appetite, but I also don't believe it is for the long term. It was really meant to be ONLY a stall breaker and to ONLY last for 3-5 days. Then you are supposed to go on induction levels and work your way back up the ladder. I did lose the 10 pounds, by the way.

I am back on my first love as of now. Protein Power includes such variety in your eating and is very healthy. When I need to get back on track, I will lower my carbs down to Atkins induction. Both plans are pretty interchangeable. I need to just stay focused. I feel very comfortable eating this way for life. Plus, you can have a low-carb ice cream bar if you want every now and then. I cannot go my whole life without a treat!

I know different things work for different people and I don't have the expertise to say what works for me will work for you and vice-versa. We all need to find what works for our bodies, but do it in a healthy way.

You all have done wonderful and I hope to maintain this way of eating for life. I feel great!!

mammac-5

Sun, Apr-16-06, 17:53

I'm going to jump in here, even though I only "hit" goal weight yesterday so I'm not officially maintaining yet.

This may all change over the next few months, depending on how things go. But for now, this is what I plan to do:

Keep right on eating the way I eat. Forever.

Simple. Just like I've been doing for the past almost-two-years I'm going to eat meats, fats, veggies, cheeses on a daily basis. I'm going to toss in some berries here and there when I have a hankering for them. I'm going to bake flax muffins and have a slice of LC toast a few times a week. I'm going to have days where I eat way too many soy crisp chips or LC chocolate candy. I'm going to drink my water. I'm going to go to the gym several times a week.

Sure, that may be boring to some people. But frankly, I have enough excitement in the rest of my life....food doesn't have to be that stimulating for me!!

BKM

Tue, Apr-18-06, 12:56

My first stab at low-carbing was in the mid-70s - I read the books by Stillman and Atkins, then bought a huge tin of salted redskin peanuts and ate nothing but - perhaps for 3 days? - and somehow lost the extra "baby-weight" that I had put on with my second child. Ah, the power of being young!

I then ate a modified low-carb diet in 1994 (hadn't read any books, didn't even know the concept - but just figured that sweets and floury foods were my downfalls....) and lost around 60-80 pounds.

Then in 1998 I found myself up in weight, and started with Sugar Busters, then Protein Power, then Atkins....

I now eat induction-level Atkins/Protein Power when I need to knock a few pounds off - the rest of the time, I eat considerably more carbs. However, I watch which carbs I eat (never ever processed sugar, for example). I eat fruit, vegetables, and some grains. I am waiting on a book that describes the glycemic index - sounds promising, but we'll see how it works for me.

So I guess I modify my WOE about as much as anyone can. I've found what works for me, and I'm happy with the results. I will continue modifying as I read more, trying to improve my health.

A typical (no extra weight day) for me could include:

steel-cut oatmeal with low-carb milk, butter, and splenda, and a bowl of berries with some heavy cream, plus 2 mugs of coffee with half-and-half and splenda
a packet of tuna with a large apple
a huge salad, piece of grilled meat, and cantalope or watermelon

Obviously not Atkins induction level eating. Right now, I'm still working at getting 3 more pounds off, so the oatmeal, apple, and melon have gone - eating more eggs and meats.

Eating this way works until something out of the ordinary happens (such as throwing my back out and taking a bunch of muscle relaxants/pain killers, etc.) - then it's back to induction eating....

ValerieL

Wed, Apr-19-06, 09:42

I'm not at goal yet, but I've switched over to maintenance eating for a while because, frankly, I'm burned out on dieting.

I started low-carbing in Sept 2003, and by the summer of 2004, I lost about 100 lbs eating low-carb, mostly Atkins in concept, but without the 5 gram increments, without the counting even. I had a YES/NO/SOMETIMES mentality with food. NO foods were the big no-nos, potatoes, rice, white flour, sugar. I didn't eat those at all. I wasn't perfect, but I avoided them 99.9% of the time. SOMETIMES foods were the carb ladder foods, legumes, low-carb breads and tortillas, nuts (due to the calories), and fruits other than berries. I ate SOMETIMES foods with caution and moderation. YES foods were Atkins induction foods and I ate as much as I needed to stay out of hunger with them.

After I lost the first 100 lbs or so, weight loss was harder, I needed to cut out the SOMETIMES foods and count calories to lose. I spent the next year (approximately) trying to do that, falling off (and making the mistake of falling off into the NO foods more often) and then going back to induction or my "old" style OF YES & SOMETIMES foods only. I spent the year cycling within a 20 lb range. A maintenance of sorts, but not a safe and reliable maintenance. It did teach me though that I wasn't doomed to regain all the weight. I could get back on track eating well after eating junk for a meal or a day.

Last fall, I went back to dieting, cutting calories in an effort to get to as low a weight as I could before my tummy tuck. I got to the low end of that 20 lb range I was working in and I had my tummy tuck in November 2005. The surgery and it's recovery time left me 10 lbs thinner again. And since then, I've lost about another 7-10 lbs by watching my calories and keeping my food choices closer to YES foods.

However, last month I tried to really cut calories drastically to lose some more weight, try to get to my goal in a quicker way. It burned me out and by the end of the second week, I was regaining even though my calories were really low. So, I'm taking a break. I don't know for how long, but for now, I'm on maintenance.

Maintenance for me right now is where my SOMETIMES foods are now YES foods too. And I eat when I'm hungry and stop when I'm full. I don't count anything but I think my carbs are probably averaging at least 100 a day. The NO foods are still a no most of the time, but I allow myself to indulge on a very infrequent basis. I've been doing this for about a month and my weight has been very steady.

I'm quite excited by this actually. This feels like real maintenance. I'm not eating without control and then reacting with restriction as I did for much of last year and I'm eating lots of food, feeling healthy and satisfied. I still want to lose 20 more pounds, but for now, I think this is the place I need to be, I need to have sometime to just be with my food. Live in harmony with it and my appetites instead of trying to control them. I'm quite enjoying this time. :D

Val

Judynyc

Wed, Apr-19-06, 16:07

I'm quite excited by this actually. This feels like real maintenance. I'm not eating without control and then reacting with restriction as I did for much of last year and I'm eating lots of food, feeling healthy and satisfied. I still want to lose 20 more pounds, but for now, I think this is the place I need to be, I need to have sometime to just be with my food. Live in harmony with it and my appetites instead of trying to control them. I'm quite enjoying this time.

I'm very happy for you Val!! :agree: I think its a great idea to call it like it is for yourself. If you feel like it, join us in the weekly weighin thread...even to just share what you are going through if you don't want to weighin. Karen is going to be undergoing surgery soon and I'm sure she'd really appreciate hearing about yours. :agree:

I agree with you on enjoying my food now...it feels like the pressure is off......finally!! :lol: :D

AmoryBlain

Fri, Apr-28-06, 09:06

I couldn't not jump in here. I am not on maintenance; I'm not even in what I consider OWL. I am however, embroiled in my fifth cycle of M and E.

I sort of resent Judy's comment that infers the blanket statement that all M/E followers are "newbies looking for fast weightloss." That said, I would like to contribute to this thread.

I've been doing Atkins since July 2003. My lowest weight was 155, I developed an immunological disorder and due to steroids (Predisone) I jumped up to 178 this December through no fault of my own. I followed Induction religiously the entire time I was being regulated by medicine and continued to work out six times a week, sometimes two hours per evening.

I am a runner (45-60 miles per week) and a weight lifter (5 times per week). I also do Pilates and play softball to fill in the cracks when I just don't think I'm doing enough.

After cycles of Prednisone left me in a size 12 instead of my usual size 8, I was devastated. I hadn't cheated over Halloween, Thanksgiving, Christmas, or New Year's. My menus were clean as a whistle, my levels of activity were sky high, but I was slowly becoming depressed due to my illness and the medication. I was on Induction for eight weeks and didn't lose a pound. In fact, I was gaining. Steadily. I pride myself on my cheat-free streaks (usually 100 plus days or more, cheats are considered SF Jello and whipped cream, I'm THAT strict with this WOE).

Why am I frontloading my post in this manner? Simply because I do not want to be considered an ignorant newbie whose point is invalid because I'm not on maintenance, though you will see by my stats I am six pounds from goal.

Meat and Egg fasting was the ONLY, I repeat ONLY way I could climb back down the weight ladder. I typically cycle 5 days of M/E with two consecutive days of Induction. To me, eating variety is not something I consider personally important, as I stopped basing my life on food and started getting real with the concept that food=sustainment, not life or social activity.

That said, I just wanted to caution this bandwagon that M/E works for people and they can find enormous success. I've been cycling M/E and Induction since January of this year and have dropped seventeen pounds. I don't get bored with my food choices, I enjoy the appetite suppression, and I feel healthier than I have since last September when I was diagnosed. My activity levels are WAYYY up (I ran five miles in 46 minutes yesterday and lifted), my skin is soft, and my hair is shiny. I could do this forever and would be most satisfied. I'm not some Atkins rookie, and I've kept the better part of 55 pounds off for over three years.

Continuing my theme of honesty here, I will lay it all on the table. Could I continue M/E for life? Most definitely. However, I do not personally want to at this point. I DO find myself becoming immersed in the "carbphobia" and realize that while I look at food as fuel, I enjoy fruit, nuts, and whole grains, so I plan to add them back in. However, I am going to do it the old-fashioned rung way--5 carbs a week. I never took my time to properly work through all rungs of Atkins, so I want to do it now.

I respect the opinions on this board and hope to soon be among the ranks of Pre-Maintenance and Maintenance posters. I just wanted to point out the M/E is NOT Satan incarnate, and that loads of people DO experience success with that particular WOE--and no, we are all not rookies looking for a quick fix. So there ya go Leslie, Judy, and MeBlady--here's your post from a veteran supporting M/E.

Thanks for dialogue. :)
~Amory

BKM

Fri, Apr-28-06, 09:23

Amory, this question is sort of off-topic, but I've been wondering just how the prednisone (steroids?) contribute to weight gain. I know that they do, I just don't understand the mechanics.

Do they increase your appetite (even too much of the right foods will make you gain) or is it something entirely different?

My 21-year-old daughter was just put on steroids (for a drug [Elmiron] reaction, a really ugly and painful "rash"). She struggles with her weight (she's in the Air Force and because of her illness hasn't been able to physically train, but she still goes to mess hall where they serve high calorie meals that the rest of the group needs).

Thanks!

AmoryBlain

Fri, Apr-28-06, 09:40

One of the many side effects of Prednisone is weight gain. This is due to increased thirst which correlates directly with severe water and weight retention. Prednisone is a corticosteroid, so ncreased appetite is common, but I was an anomoly there, considering I had barely an appetite and ate only Induction level appropriate foods.

Rapid weight gain is only one of many side effects. I encourage you to talk to your daughter's physician and bone up on literature concerning the ill and sometimes long-term effects of corticosteroids.

I actually needed to be put on extreme diuretics after cycling Prednisone. I needed five days worth of lasix, in which I expelled nearly ELEVEN liters of water. I was so swollen and miserable that I refuse to EVER go on Prednisone again.

Hope this helps.

MeBLady

Fri, Apr-28-06, 10:50

I respect the opinions on this board and hope to soon be among the ranks of Pre-Maintenance and Maintenance posters. I just wanted to point out the M/E is NOT Satan incarnate, and that loads of people DO experience success with that particular WOE--and no, we are all not rookies looking for a quick fix. So there ya go Leslie, Judy, and MeBlady--here's your post from a veteran supporting M/E.

Thanks for dialogue. :)
~Amory

Okay, Amory, you've included (reasonably so) my name in the anti-m/e'ers, so I'll bite ;-)

I don't think the M/E is the devil incarnate, and I don't think that all who do them are rookies looking for a quick fix. I DO think that it is an extreme tweaking of a LC plan already in effect, something invented by someone looking at weight loss first and health second.

I also think that this WOE is likely to backfire, wrecking one's motab., creating eventual nutricianal defiencies, pyschological carb allergies, and perhaps a physical intolerance to carbs that can be hard to overcome.

Most, if not all, LC plans out there are endorced at least by the medical professional who reseached and designed them. If there is a medically endorsed plan for M/E, I've personally never heard of it (the way the average m/e'er in this forum is doing it). The original Atkins plan comes closest (by my knowledge), but even Dr. Atkins himself updated his own plan as scientific info became more available.

Nothing you stated in your post swayed my opinion one bit.

There are exceptions, of course. I've personally seen two people who are doing m/e (or very, very LC) under the supervision of their doctor, and both involve specific issues with insulin response.

Your reason for the m/e, based on what you shared, seems geared toward the use of prednisone. Coming from a long line of asthmatics, my knowledge with pred. is that rapid weight gain is caused by the building of muscle tissue (building of muscle tissue can cause appetite increase and water retention)...something that a diet of mostly protein as well as intense resistance training is going to contribute to, not help. I won't dispute that lowering the carbs down to nothing (constant heavy ketosis) is going to counteract that....as you do say that this is working for you as far as weight loss.

If you would have posted this same post out in another area seeking advice, would I have offered alternatives to m/e? Yep!

Although you are a veteran to Atkins, would it be fair to point out that your experience with m/e is still quite new enough to not be able to determine your final outcome as far as weight loss and health?

Would it also be fair to point out that, although you state you can eat this way forever, that in six months, you may feel differently?

Lastly....would it be fair to point out that you haven't hit maintenance phase and still have a period of stabilization in front of you...and don't know the difficulties associated with this WOE that may or may not hinder that stabilization?

As a disclaimer, I will state that I have an open mind that is quite willing to change. I simply haven't seen anything from my current knowledge of the m/e to provoke a change in my opinion.

AmoryBlain

Fri, Apr-28-06, 12:42

"Nothing you stated in your post swayed my opinion one bit. " ~MeBLady

I wasn't trying to.

And as far as M/E being endorsed by doctors, I really don't care. America often operates on a "doctors know best" mentality until the newest study comes out disproving a practice that's already been in place for fifty years. My mother actually happens to be my practitioner and is an emergency room physician. She is well aware of my eating my habits, intense exercise, and WOE. She is an Atkins advocate and supports a very patheolithic lifestyle and has even tried a week of M/E (even though she doesn't need to) just to see how it made her feel.

I'm not trying to sway you, as my eating habits aren't going to change.

SIDENOTE: As far as the Prednisone, I definitely didn't gain muscle. Over the course of three weeks I lost eleven liters of water after diuretics. Swelling ankles do not equate muscle gain to me.

MeBLady

Fri, Apr-28-06, 13:39

And as far as M/E being endorsed by doctors, I really don't care. America often operates on a "doctors know best" mentality until the newest study comes out disproving a practice that's already been in place for fifty years. My mother actually happens to be my practitioner and is an emergency room physician. She is well aware of my eating my habits, intense exercise, and WOE. She is an Atkins advocate and supports a very patheolithic lifestyle and has even tried a week of M/E (even though she doesn't need to) just to see how it made her feel.

I hear ya on the "doctors know best" mindset...and I can't say I disagree. However, for me, I do feel more comfortable that someone knowledgeable has researched my WOE so I can feel confident that I am doing something healthy and safe....even if it is contraversial, and LCing as a whole is still considered contraversial.

There was a debate in the War Zone awhile back on this, I remember reading an article about a meat/fat lifestyle -- the specifics sounded healthy (not necessarily enjoyable for me personally), but quite different than the trendy/tweaking of the m/e fasting that I've seen develop since my own LC journey started.

*I don't feel good after a week of lowering my carbs in the 10/15 range. My body tells me that *I need some healthy carbs in order to function properly.

You said you cycle in and out of induction as well, so you aren't totally on the m/e all the time, right?

I am interested in seeing how maintenance goes for you, and hope you will join us soon to share your progress.

SIDENOTE: As far as the Prednisone, I definitely didn't gain muscle. Over the course of three weeks I lost eleven liters of water after diuretics. Swelling ankles do not equate muscle gain to me.

The increased weight gain you had....was it just water weight?

Judynyc

Fri, Apr-28-06, 14:40

I've been cycling M/E and Induction since January of this year and have dropped seventeen pounds. I don't get bored with my food choices, I enjoy the appetite suppression, and I feel healthier than I have since last September when I was diagnosed. My activity levels are WAYYY up (I ran five miles in 46 minutes yesterday and lifted), my skin is soft, and my hair is shiny. I could do this forever and would be most satisfied. I'm not some Atkins rookie, and I've kept the better part of 55 pounds off for over three years.

Continuing my theme of honesty here, I will lay it all on the table. Could I continue M/E for life? Most definitely. However, I do not personally want to at this point. I DO find myself becoming immersed in the "carbphobia" and realize that while I look at food as fuel, I enjoy fruit, nuts, and whole grains, so I plan to add them back in. However, I am going to do it the old-fashioned rung way--5 carbs a week. I never took my time to properly work through all rungs of Atkins, so I want to do it now.

Thank you for your experience and opinions Amory. :thup:

But your cycling between M&E and Induction levels of carbs is not the same as stayng on M&E as a plan forever. That was the point of this thread in the first place. Personally, I have no trouble at all, with using a M&E fast as a stop gap to end a stall or plateau. But when so many new members are seduced into thinking they will have fast weight loss doing M&E and not bothering to do it the way it was originally written, +5 grams carbs at a time in OWL.....then this is not even a conversation.

You are a very bright and educated young woman. At 5'10", I'm sure that you are stunning at your current weight. Even at your high weight, I'm sure you wore it well but probably did not feel very well. I'm happy for you that you've found a system that is working for you. :agree:

I've used carb cycling to break me out of 2 stalls as I lost my weight. I could not sustain very low carb long term as I did not like the way it had me feeling physically.

To each his own!! :D

MeBLady

Fri, Apr-28-06, 15:19

I've used carb cycling to break me out of 2 stalls as I lost my weight. I could not sustain very low carb long term as I did not like the way it had me feeling physically.

Not to change the subject, BUT, LOL.....carb cycling is another subject we haven't covered as maintainers.

Judy, you said it broke two of your stalls...how did you do it?

Judynyc

Fri, Apr-28-06, 16:41

Not to change the subject, BUT, LOL.....carb cycling is another subject we haven't covered as maintainers.

Judy, you said it broke two of your stalls...how did you do it?

I'm going to answer you on this in private Lori!! ;) :lol:

taming

Tue, May-02-06, 10:33

MeBLady

Thu, May-04-06, 07:49

So few of us actually reach our goal AND stick around to talk about it that it might be a bit early in the game to have many folks doing full time M&E to talk to about this particular part of it as a maintenace/pre-maintenace WOL.

I guess time will tell. It wouldn't be my choice, but I was fortunate that Atkins worked for me and I didn't have to/want to try anything different.

I'm not so sure about that....perhaps they are merely sticking to their own support threads, with pop ins everywhere else when their WOE is discussed.

Maybe I have been around this forum too long at this point -- I remember during my weight loss mode, there was tons of support for sticking to your plan as written, avoiding processed foods and trends, etc., which I found to be a tremendous help.

With this subject on the mind the past few days, I've been browsing the main areas more thoroughly, and M/E fasting, lifestyle -- whatever is literally everywhere.

Is this the new WOL for success? The lower the carb, the better?

I will say that I am very glad that I found this forum when I did, over a year ago.....can't say I would have been able to obtain support, or even be successful in my plan, if I was constantly advised to eat only meat/eggs -- or raw meat.

ItsTheWooo

Thu, May-04-06, 13:12

Hi Judy, great thread.

I see a crucial difference between SB and an atkins like plan, and that is the emphasis on fat. Fat is the only metabolically "neutral" energy source - that is to say, it has nearly no effect on insulin but it energizes as carbs or protein might.

I think a high fat (atkins-like) is better suited for a person with a more advanced derrangement of metabolism, because right away it starts you with a base of food that can't possibly upset you. Eating very high fat and no carbs really lets you understand what normal feels like... and for me, the line between normal and sugar unstable is really thin.

SB I think is better for someone who has a less extensive sugar insensitivity, and the primary issue is eating the correct foods in correct balance. Or, alternately, if you have an issue really making a more radical change work, then SB can help you eat more "normal" (conventional) but still get the most significant benefits of low carb.
Personally, I've reviewed SB menus and I could never eat that way. The lack of fat, and the fruit and grains, would leave me very sugar unstable, hungry, and just not happy. For me, it's really all about fat. Protein does not do it and actully upsets me if I eat enough of it.

With that said, I also find that zero carb is not the best either. My sweet spot where I feel most energetic is more than 30 carbs, but less than 50. More than 60 and I'm in trouble, less than 30 and I'm not doing good either.
Right now, I eat nuts EVERY day, berries almost every day, plenty of veggies and non sweet fruit. I definitely do not eat a carnivorous diet, but, my diet is rather low in carbs and higher in fat; I just feel best that way.

Originally I lost weight by eating more carbs than I could handle, but I was restricting so much that it wasn't that much of a problem (restricting allows me to better tolerate carbs). Now I realize that to truly maintain and be happy I must eat high fat, mod protein (30%), and very low carb - I shoot for an average of 40.

ItsTheWooo

Thu, May-04-06, 13:19

treefrog

Thu, May-04-06, 14:38

Hi Woo,

Yes I am hoping, and sometimes confident, that I will find that right balance for myself. I figure, since I haven't let my weight get really out of control over the last year, I am actually doing fairly good.

Personally, I've reviewed SB menus and I could never eat that way. The lack of fat, and the fruit and grains, would leave me very sugar unstable, hungry, and just not happy.Ditto :lol:

taming

Thu, May-04-06, 14:58

I remember during my weight loss mode, there was tons of support for sticking to your plan as written, avoiding processed foods and trends, etc., which I found to be a tremendous help
I have been on the board since Sept. 03, and I remember this incredible upswing in interest in carb cycling in the winter of 04. It was as least as strong a trend as the meat and egg stuff is now. These things happen on boards from time to time.

foxgluvs

Thu, May-04-06, 14:58

Personally, I've reviewed SB menus and I could never eat that way. The lack of fat, and the fruit and grains, would leave me very sugar unstable, hungry, and just not happy.

I thought this too, but have you actually tried it?
I thik you cannot possibly KNOW that would happen unless you tried it. Not trying to encourage anyone to do that, but I think this is a generalized statement and not one based on fact so much.
just my 10c's worth.
:)
H

Judynyc

Thu, May-04-06, 15:04

Personally, I've reviewed SB menus and I could never eat that way. The lack of fat, and the fruit and grains, would leave me very sugar unstable, hungry, and just not happy.

Ok.....no problems here ...to each his own and if its working for you...great!!

I miss certain aspects of fat and I still eat some brie cause I like it....so there SBD!! :p :lol:

I bought boneless and skinless thighs simply because I do enjoy the juicy taste of dark meat and I was tired of breasts.....I spent about an hour cutting away as much fat as possible. Even with all the trimming, I got a taste of a piece of fat and it made me want to puke!! Not to my liking!!

But seasoned and crunchy skin?? Sure..I miss that too!! ;)

MeBLady

Thu, May-04-06, 20:15

I have been on the board since Sept. 03, and I remember this incredible upswing in interest in carb cycling in the winter of 04. It was as least as strong a trend as the meat and egg stuff is now. These things happen on boards from time to time.

Oh yeah, I've been on other boards long enough to see topics/interests go in cycles as people come and go....this is my first stint in any type of dieting forum tho.

Sounds like with any trend, this too, shall eventually pass?

I thought this too, but have you actually tried it?
I thik you cannot possibly KNOW that would happen unless you tried it. Not trying to encourage anyone to do that, but I think this is a generalized statement and not one based on fact so much.
just my 10c's worth.
:)
H

SB isn't for me either, but my reasons are completely due to personal eating preferences. I don't like Atkins for myself either, when I first researched in order to choose a plan for myself, the induction phase seemed just a little too harsh for what was liveable for me.

PP stuck out to me as the plan that was closest to my previous WOE based on foods I liked, as well as the easiest one for me to personally follow.

In maintenance, I think all three of these plans are interchangeable. I can have grains and starches in moderation and still stay on my own plan, and the higher I go in carbs (according to PP), the lower my fat should be....after going without them for so long tho, I'd rather keep them out than risk missing them once I get a little taste.

What carb level is everyone at now, or do you still even strictly count?

I'm doing between 50-60 most days (I think, I don't record every little carb anymore), when I just don't feel like eating, I'll still lower them down to 20-30. I'd like to see if I can get them over 60 without a reaction, but for me, that would take adding back in some of the bad stuff....I just don't crave 70 carbs worth of veggies/fruit per day.

ItsTheWooo

Thu, May-04-06, 22:14

I thought this too, but have you actually tried it?
I thik you cannot possibly KNOW that would happen unless you tried it. Not trying to encourage anyone to do that, but I think this is a generalized statement and not one based on fact so much.
just my 10c's worth.
:)
H

I have never formally followed SB but for weeks, months, etc I tried very hard to eat lower fat and higher carb. I ate more fruits, such as cantalope, apples, oranges. I ate grains, such as oatmeal. I reduced fat using no and low fat products, although diet was still rather high in fat at around 45%.

It was not worth the heart ache of going to bed worrying whether or not "tonight would be the night" where I became near bingy and unsatisfiable, or, if i could go to sleep feeling reasonably okay. AT first I tolerated it well, for a few reasons. Reason one was I was used to hunger, being in weight loss mode and used to never eating enough. Reason two is that I started eating this way while restricting cals, and restricting cals allows me to tolerate carbs better (since my body is burning its own fat in restriction, this attenuates insulinogenic potential of carbs). When I tried to maintain, it was not well, I could only feel "okay" if I were under eating. If I tried to eat normally I became hungrier and unsatisfiable right away, and I had *frequent* hypoglycemia.

Since returning to a fat based very low carb diet (haven't had oatmeal, apples, oranges, etc in so long and I really don't miss them - low carb cereal and berries are just fine thanks) this "more I eat the hungrier I get" thing still tends to happen (probably because weight is low, but it is not nearly as exacerbating now that my carbs are much lower. I almost never have hypoglycemia now wheraes before it was like after every MEAL i would be wondering if I'm going to be shaking and feel real crappy or not. I eat and don't worry because I KNOW I won't.

kwikdriver

Thu, May-04-06, 23:30

Enomarb

Fri, May-05-06, 06:48

Hey- this is a POSITIVE thread that is about what we, maintainers, who have successfully lost weight (and in some cases kept it off a while) have done. There are lots of paths on this journey- this thread is an exploration of some of them. It is fascinating to me how different we are, and what we have in common. I can read about all kinds of other stuff lots of places on this site- this is not bashing anyone- this is for those of us in it for the long haul.
For me, SBD is a great plan for others! It is too similar to the way I used to eat to work for me. All I know is CALP works, and if it ain't broke don't fix it. Almost 3 years, and still going strong.
E

Judynyc

Fri, May-05-06, 08:19

I also want to add that I do not eat nearly as many grains as SBD allows. During the main thrust of my weight loss, phase II, I was allowed 3 grain/starch servings a day. I found that when I did eat 3 serving a day, that I'd stop losing weight. So I opted for 2-3 servings per week of starches and grains and that worked for me.

Even now, the only grain I eat daily are these Wasa rye crackers because I have finally realized that wheat triggers my appetite to I tend to avoid it. Except for Dreamfields pasta which I eat every couple of weeks. Once in a while, I'll have some brown rice or a potato but not often at all.

I think that as long as I keep strict with the grains/starch, that I'll be able to maintain. The balance of what I eat is some dairy, some cheese, 3-4 fruits a day, lots of protein(chicken, eggs, turkey, steak, fish) and lots of fresh veggies and hummus. OH!! ...and Breyers double churned, triple chocolate no sugar added ice cream!! ;) :lol:

I see many people fail on SBD and I think that many of them jump to add bread back into their plans way too fast!! I still eat bread as a treat once in a while but for the most part, I avoid flour and will continue to avoid flour.

BKM

Fri, May-05-06, 08:47

I've been investigating the glycemic diet (WOE) - and my husband and I are going to use some portions of it.

There is absolutely no way that either of us would be happy with the low fat that is recommended, but since we seem able to tolerate a fair amount of carbs, we'll simply be careful to choose ones with low GIs. We will not choose a carb just because of its GI (peanut M&Ms are low!), but we will choose what we consider healthy carbs with a low GI!

Right now I'm working at getting 3 pounds off, plus we've just done a lot of (unexpected) traveling - but in a week or so I'll start making steel-cut oats for breakfast, Ezekiel-bread for toast with eggs, extra fruits - I think our general WOE is fairly close to Protein Power.....and goes over to Atkins when we're trying to straighten something (like extra weight!) out.

I think in maintenance, we have to continually tinker with our eating to find just what works best for us - and I suspect that what works for me simply does not work for another person. Even between my husband and me, I have to make modifications - for example, he can tolerate only 1 cup of coffee a day (blood pressure rise) and limited salt - but he can eat a quarter pound of almonds and/or macadamias with no impact - I have to be super careful with the nuts (weight gain) but the coffee and diet Cokes don't do a thing to my bp, and salt makes me swell up but doesn't raise my bp.....

As I said, we're all different.....

MeBLady

Fri, May-05-06, 09:10

Just a note for accuracy. There is, ahem, another board with several people who have lost all their weight doing no veggies, some of them having started in TDC territory. There is a diet plan, called Stillman's, that is no veggies. The notion that no one succeeds on meat only, or that it has no track record of success is not exactly true; in fact, they have a page on Donaldson's all meat plan right here on this website.

My knowledge of Stillmans was that it was intended to be temporary, not long term. I'd be interested in checking out Donaldson's just to gain some understanding of an actual lifestyle based on meat only....Kiwi, do you have a link to it?

Hey- this is a POSITIVE thread that is about what we, maintainers, who have successfully lost weight (and in some cases kept it off a while) have done. There are lots of paths on this journey- this thread is an exploration of some of them. It is fascinating to me how different we are, and what we have in common. I can read about all kinds of other stuff lots of places on this site- this is not bashing anyone- this is for those of us in it for the long haul.
For me, SBD is a great plan for others! It is too similar to the way I used to eat to work for me. All I know is CALP works, and if it ain't broke don't fix it. Almost 3 years, and still going strong.
E

I find the differences fascinating too....if I wanted to hear/talk about only PPLP, I'd be primarily at their website, and I have found when exchanging information for the purpose of learning and supporting each other, that the plan of choice doesn't really matter that much. There does seem to be enough common ground in the LC lifestyle as a whole for us to share in support.

Eno, what exactly is CALP?

I see many people fail on SBD and I think that many of them jump to add bread back into their plans way too fast!! I still eat bread as a treat once in a while but for the most part, I avoid flour and will continue to avoid flour.

Judy, as a SBer, what is your take on the prepared SB dinners? I'm seeing a lot of those in my grocery store, and some of them don't look half bad with the carb level fitting into what I can have in maintenance.

Not to live off of completely, of course, but in moderation as a break from cooking now and then.

I've been skeptical of Atkin's products and found some to even contain transfats.

kwikdriver

Fri, May-05-06, 09:31

My knowledge of Stillmans was that it was intended to be temporary, not long term. I'd be interested in checking out Donaldson's just to gain some understanding of an actual lifestyle based on meat only....Kiwi, do you have a link to it?

Donaldson is here. (http://www.lowcarb.ca/atkins-diet-and-low-carb-plans/eskimo-diet-donaldson.html) at the top of this webpage is a menu, and one of those menu items says "Plans", which leads to useful synopses of a bunch of different LC plans; Donaldson's plan is one of them.

WRT to Stillman's, all these plans have weight loss components and maintenance components; the all meat plans do as well, although the things we're seeing pop up now (M/E, "Carnivore") have people saying they'll do it forever (right). But the plan being followed on the other board has two seperate phases, the first one low fat/no carb (it's basically Stillman's from what I can tell); the second phase re-introducing vegetables and so on once you've reached maintenance, which resembles the run-of-the-mill maintenance plan for any low carb diet. I do know there are people who have rapidly (in under a year) shed hundreds of pounds on a Stillman type plan and have kept it off to date. It's not for me -- there's evidence that weightloss that fast can shorten your lifespan -- but it can, and has been done, and is still being done.

treefrog

Fri, May-05-06, 09:47

I think that is the beauty of this board, we know that one size does not fit all. Each person has to find out what works best for them. And kudo's to everyone that has been able to figure it out, not everyone is there yet. It usually takes some experimentation to get there. Even I haven't gotten it all figured out, I know I still have a lot to figure out to know what is the absolute best way for me to eat for life.

I know for myself, when I eat grains (wheat, oatmeal, rice, and others) it leads to cravings and I get bloated, fruits are not as much of a problem. I find that fats keep my feeling satisfied and happy with what I am eating. For the most part, I do buy skinless boneless chicken breasts, but it's because I find them easier to cook (grilled) and eat.

There are certain things that I cannot have in the house, because I will overeat them. LC ice cream and chocolates, cashews and popcorn are particularly troublesome. These are things that aren't very good for me anyway, so I am learning to accept that I shouldn't have free access to them.

MeBLady

Fri, May-05-06, 10:43

Donaldson is here. (http://www.lowcarb.ca/atkins-diet-and-low-carb-plans/eskimo-diet-donaldson.html) at the top of this webpage is a menu, and one of those menu items says "Plans", which leads to useful synopses of a bunch of different LC plans; Donaldson's plan is one of them.

WRT to Stillman's, all these plans have weight loss components and maintenance components; the all meat plans do as well, although the things we're seeing pop up now (M/E, "Carnivore") have people saying they'll do it forever (right). But the plan being followed on the other board has two seperate phases, the first one low fat/no carb (it's basically Stillman's from what I can tell); the second phase re-introducing vegetables and so on once you've reached maintenance, which resembles the run-of-the-mill maintenance plan for any low carb diet. I do know there are people who have rapidly (in under a year) shed hundreds of pounds on a Stillman type plan and have kept it off to date. It's not for me -- there's evidence that weightloss that fast can shorten your lifespan -- but it can, and has been done, and is still being done.

Thanks for the link. I've been trying to find some sort of published plan based on meat only, and the only thing I've seen is articles/testimonials in the War Zone.

One source of confusion I've had is how maintenance is actually entered on a m/e plan....all of the LC plans I've seen do include upping the carbs at some point to stop weight loss. Others do, however, just stall out when their body is at the weight it wants....I noticed my weight loss slowed on its own to a degree even if I ate at induction levels, as I approached my ideal weight.

I have some understanding that a pure "carnivore" diet that includes raw meat and organ meats can be seen as a healthy lifestyle, though its not my cup of tea. Donaldson's doesn't seem to include this aspect, but it does include to add stuff back in slowly at some point.

It took me 10 months to lose 84 pounds, and I've gotten some flack IRL that I lost too fast, though my father lost over 100 pounds in nine months on a doctor prescribed diabetic diet that was along the lines of SB. I don't feel I forced things or went to any extremes, that was just the pace that my body let the pounds go.

Thanks for your input...what worked for you?

Judynyc

Fri, May-05-06, 10:57

Judy, as a SBer, what is your take on the prepared SB dinners? I'm seeing a lot of those in my grocery store, and some of them don't look half bad with the carb level fitting into what I can have in maintenance.

I'm going to be very honest here as Kraft is the one who designs these foods and they don't always have our best interests at heart!! ;) They just want us to buy..buy and buy some more!!

Dr Agatson wrote a note about these foods and says to use them once in a while when you cannot eat fresh whole foods. While I agree with this, I still don't eat them!!:nono:

The frozen foods are loaded with sodium...the cereals are loaded with sugar as are the cookies and bars too.:devil: Bad...very bad!!! They could learn alot from the Kashi line of foods!!! :idea:

Personally, I like the Kashi products much better!! Their granola bars are great!! :thup: I have not tried their crackers yet but will at some point.

MeBLady

Fri, May-05-06, 11:13

I'm going to be very honest here as Kraft is the one who designs these foods and they don't always have our best interests at heart!! ;) They just want us to buy..buy and buy some more!!

Dr Agatson wrote a note about these foods and says to use them once in a while when you cannot eat fresh whole foods. While I agree with this, I still don't eat them!!:nono:

The frozen foods are loaded with sodium...the cereals are loaded with sugar as are the cookies and bars too.:devil: Bad...very bad!!! They could learn alot from the Kashi line of foods!!! :idea:

Personally, I like the Kashi products much better!! Their granola bars are great!! :thup: I have not tried their crackers yet but will at some point.

I had a feeling that this would be your answer, LOL!

Most of their dinners didn't look to be much different than what I can make at home (though more convenient), but I've been eyeing their pizza.

My "sin" food is LC flatbread and I have yet to try making it myself, cause I have to order a couple of the major ingrediants online, and I've never really mastered baking bread (without my bread machine). So far, Quizno's subs (delicious flatbread!) is my weekly treat, but one of these days I want to enjoy a good, moderately healthy, LC pizza.

mammac-5

Fri, May-05-06, 17:04

mammac-5

Fri, May-05-06, 17:05

Sorry...duplicate

mammac-5

Fri, May-05-06, 17:05

MeBLady

Fri, May-05-06, 18:44

I make a LC pizza at home with Flat Out Carbdown flat breads (I buy them at the deli area of our Super Wal*Mart). They have both a plain and an italian herb variety. I just heat the oven to 400, drizzle a little olive oil on a cookie sheet, plop the flat bread down and top it with whatever I happen to have on hand. Always SF tomato sauce, pepperoni and cheeses. Sometimes sausage if I have it. Veggies if I'm hungry for them. They bake for about 10 mins and are GREAT!

Ohh, thanks for the tip! Our super Wal Mart just opened, and I hadn't thought to check the deli area for LC breads. They keep the LC tortillas in one place, LC bagels in another....I had no idea that they carried flatbreads.

ItsTheWooo

Fri, May-05-06, 19:10

Ohh, thanks for the tip! Our super Wal Mart just opened, and I hadn't thought to check the deli area for LC breads. They keep the LC tortillas in one place, LC bagels in another....I had no idea that they carried flatbreads.

Touyfan (murdered that spelling) makes a really awesome LC pita. It's only 7 carbs and the way I count cals says it's 90 cals, which is great, since half a pita is like a serving for anything I would need it for.

I used to love flat bread, I will have to look for that for SURE.

Judynyc

Fri, May-05-06, 20:46

ItsTheWooo

Fri, May-05-06, 21:27

Hey Wooo!! :wave:

Where do you find that Touyfan?
I know they sell it at a local supermarket chain called shoprite, near the bakery section.

Here is the product:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00032H2RY/102-7791267-8304965?v=glance&n=3370831

MeBLady

Sat, May-06-06, 07:00

Touyfan (murdered that spelling) makes a really awesome LC pita. It's only 7 carbs and the way I count cals says it's 90 cals, which is great, since half a pita is like a serving for anything I would need it for.

I used to love flat bread, I will have to look for that for SURE.

I've found a package of LC pita bread ONCE in one of my local grocery stores, and it never appeared again.

Stores are really clearing out the LC items, which I guess is a good thing, but I have to have some sort of bread, at least in moderation.

I came across LC bagels for the first time at my new Super Walmart, and ohh, they are delicious! Only 12 carbs for a full bagel....I'll eat a half with butter sometimes in the morning, or use a whole bagel when I have a craving for a good cheeseburger.

I've tried an Atkins pizza (terrible) and found a Tony's brand that was decent....but both were 20-25 net carbs and pretty small.

For those of you that haven't tried Quiznos, they pride themselves in serving deli meats that are not processed (I have a slight reaction when I eat Subway Wraps, never w/Quiznos). Our local actually keeps their flatbread stocked just for me, and has offered to sell me their flatbread by the package....unfortunately, tho, at .84 a slice.

I think in maintenance, we have to continually tinker with our eating to find just what works best for us - and I suspect that what works for me simply does not work for another person. Even between my husband and me, I have to make modifications - for example, he can tolerate only 1 cup of coffee a day (blood pressure rise) and limited salt - but he can eat a quarter pound of almonds and/or macadamias with no impact - I have to be super careful with the nuts (weight gain) but the coffee and diet Cokes don't do a thing to my bp, and salt makes me swell up but doesn't raise my bp.....

As I said, we're all different.....

It is a little weird how we react so differently. I struggle with getting enough salt.....I listened in weight loss mode how salt can bloat you, so took extra care in buying items with low salt. Result was a struggle in low potassium.

I have to supplement with 600 mg. of potassium a day (I can drop to 400 if I don't exercise and sunbathe in the same day), use salted butter, bacon, etc. With my dad (also on an lc diet), OHTH, even traces of salt will shoot his BP sky high. The no salt sub. tastes terrible to me, and I don't like using a regular salt shaker either.

I have problems with sugar. Anything over 8 g. will bloat me up and give me a headache and "hangover" the next day.

treefrog

Tue, May-16-06, 14:36

MeBLady

Tue, May-16-06, 22:29

I have seen the LC flatbreads in my grocery store's bakery section, but I haven't tried them. Just thought if you were looking for them, you might look there as well as with the packaged breads (our store has these in different places). Making a pizza with one sounds like a great idea.

I found the flatbread at Super Walmart in the deli section (thank you, Nora!). Haven't tried it yet, but pizza is on my menu for this week :-)

MissSherry

Mon, Jun-05-06, 19:01

MeBLady

Mon, Jun-05-06, 23:14

Hmmm Maybe I need to post somewhere else. I am one of those that reached goal and did this for 130+ days and would still be doing JUST meat and eggs had it not be for the fact that family stresses w/ eating is having me transition some. I feel better on my carnivore days and even on my cycle days I add in carbs it is no more then usually 3-4 net... My DR has oked this and is amazed and had even recommended this to others due to my success in maintaining glucose control and lupus signs. I know this WOE is not for everyone but some of these posts were making ME feel very uncomfortable. I have done other plans (ADA, SB, Atkins). None worked this well...

Hi Sherry,

I hope that you will change your mind and continue to post here....IMO, it doesn't matter what plan you went with to lose weight, you've hit goal and maintenance is a whole new ballgame with its own share of struggles.

I would hate for you to feel that you cannot share support with maintenance issues because some of us are uncomfortable, for ourselves, with the WOE that got you to this point.

The most important thing here for all of us is to maintain our weights, our now improved health, adjust to this as a WOL and have some people to talk about our issues with.....isn't that the same goal that you have?

Not all of us have everything in common, not all of us have the same issues. However, there are enough of us here for someone to be able to relate to a specific problem/issue someone else is experiencing....and it helps.

Congrats on making your goal weight, and welcome :-)

Jonahsafta

Tue, Jun-06-06, 08:09

Miss Sherry..did I miss something??? i dont know abt anyone else but I love your posts.....they encourage me..please dont't stop...people may disagree abt specific plans ideas etc...that just adds to the mix!

MissSherry

Tue, Jun-06-06, 16:21

Judynyc

Tue, Jun-06-06, 16:31

If it does not matter why such negativity? I come here for support and to give support and meet others like me. Some of the posts in this thread are none of the above... You may not agree with my way of eating and I am a big girl and can handle that but maybe you should think of how others feel when you all post. Most of us doing this do it as a WOL just like most of you all. You all have slip ups just like we do. Noone is perfect. We are all healthy and feel our WOE is healthy for us long term. This is my preferred WOL. I will eat some veggies due to peer/family pressure and just trying to see how they play into my BG and lupus but honestly I would prefer not too.... I do not believe they are needed for optimum nutrition (and my lab works backs my feelings) but more for variety and taste.

I am not mad nor am I upset. Just saddened that I would come and see this here of all places..

I'm sorry you feel this way Sherry.

I feel that we each need to find a way to live with our chosen plan and make it work in our lives. I started this thread in response to the debate about only meat eating is the "real human diet" as I saw way too many newbies abandoning their plans in hopes of faster weight loss on M&E based on the debate.

I'm truly happy for anyone that finds what works for their individual bodies. :agree: I'm happy for you that you've found a way to eat that helps not only your weight but your health issues. :agree:

I don't think that this was negative at all....just a place for others who have had success to share what worked for them without it becoming another debate. :idea:

In the end, how many of use actually make it to our goals?...not many compared to the huge number of people who start. We each have modified our plans to suit our individual tastes and lifestyles. I hope that you can accept us too.

MeBLady

Tue, Jun-06-06, 22:36

If it does not matter why such negativity? I come here for support and to give support and meet others like me. Some of the posts in this thread are none of the above... You may not agree with my way of eating and I am a big girl and can handle that but maybe you should think of how others feel when you all post. Most of us doing this do it as a WOL just like most of you all. You all have slip ups just like we do. Noone is perfect. We are all healthy and feel our WOE is healthy for us long term. This is my preferred WOL. I will eat some veggies due to peer/family pressure and just trying to see how they play into my BG and lupus but honestly I would prefer not too.... I do not believe they are needed for optimum nutrition (and my lab works backs my feelings) but more for variety and taste.

I am not mad nor am I upset. Just saddened that I would come and see this here of all places..

I understand where you are coming from, especially from seeing all these debates in the War Zone on this subject.

But, IMO, you gotta realize that the posts upthread are coming from the mindset of those who are past weight loss stage sharing their own experiences and what worked/didn't work along the way. As you work your way through transitioning from weight loss mode, your input could be very valuable for the many others out there that are wanting to make M/E a lifestyle...cause you've done it first hand.

There are plenty of places for those still in weight loss mode to obtain support for whatever plan they are doing or issues they are having, this area is for US...and for YOU, as you're a maintainer now! :agree:

With that said, you state above you are eating some carbs now, but don't seem too happy about doing it....are you feeling forced to eat stuff at this point that you don't want?

All of us have had our share of issues, that initial transition was certainly the hardest for me. Weight loss mode was actually much more "fun" than maintainance.

MissSherry

Wed, Jun-07-06, 05:58

Actually the idea of this thread is super. What hit me hard was the criticizing of 0 carb diets. Especially when noone making the posts had really done them (and I mean more then a week long journey in). SO not having BTDT why post - things about that when enough of that was/is already donein the war zone...

That was my point and as far as I am concerned that aspect can be closed.

I ameating very limitedveggies. My hesitation comes from how I feel vs. whatis acceptable socially.

MeBLady

Wed, Jun-07-06, 08:36

I ameating very limitedveggies. My hesitation comes from how I feel vs. whatis acceptable socially.

I had some added pressure to add "forbidden foods" from those around me once my weight was off....I do think this is just a lack of understanding of dieting in general? Any WOE has to become a WOL to work, or one will simply end up back where they started.

If you stand your ground, those around you may let off and realize that this is a WOL for you, and not just something to lose weight.

All of those I have personally seen in the past that did m/e long term had a desire within themselves to increase carbs at some point, and had trouble when they tried. With that said, I think you are very smart to add things very, very slowly....and be prepared that it may take a while for your body to adjust/stablize.

I do think, tho, that if you are eating according to what is socially acceptable v. what you feel is liveable for you, you may have some additional struggles ahead of you. Do you feel you can eat 0 carb and stablize your weight loss and health, and is that what you would prefer to do? If so, why not say the heck with society and do what is best for you?

Jonahsafta

Thu, Jun-08-06, 08:14

MeBLady

Fri, Jun-09-06, 07:45

OK..the warzone is a different"beast"...you can say the blunt outrageous things....you wouldnt dare say anywhere else...

I was lurking on another board where there seems to be an all out WAR over m/e etc.
What i object to is the militancy....I have enough trouble keeping my own life going without critiquing someone elses...now the warzone is where I can do that with the ground rules being its moderately outrageous..

those of you who know me....know that "blaming" is what sets me off...not necessarily plans.

There does seem to be, at minimum, a lot of tension on this subject.

I think IKWYM by the militancy, but I am trying to understand some of the defensiveness. We are all in the position of having our WOE critiqued by people in our real lives, I'm sure the last place someone wants to experience that is in a support forum.

What I find disheartening is the encouragement/acknowledgement of the average newbie that jumps to this type of WOE before giving their first chosen plan a chance to work in desperation to get the weight off, rather than a personal eating preference. This is based on my seeing SO many that did this long term and struggled really, really hard.

I think as we see more people doing this WOL come into maintenance, there will be a better understanding.

At any rate, there is no doubt that this type of plan can work for weight loss mode......but does it work for maintenance, and how?

Sherry, being new to maintenance, do you have any set plan on how to maintain long term? Are you wanting to slowly move up the carb ladder, cycle in and out, eventually drop all carbs together again keeping cals/fat high enough to no longer lose?

Jonahsafta

Fri, Jun-09-06, 08:13

ok SORRY i AM BACK TRACKING...BUT I FOUND THE TOUYFAN AT pUBLIX YESTERDAY...

MissSherry

Fri, Jun-09-06, 08:28

It works for maintaining just fine. I could continue and eat the same way (0 carb) and my body would set it's own weight as long as was consuming enough fat, protein, calories. It is not a starvation diet where you would continue to loose indefinitely.

I have maintained about 111-114 for almost a month now. I have no set plans for my future as far as eating is concerned.

My issues are not as much related to weight as they are in pure health. Some people think veggies are harmless and for most they are, but not for some, and I am one of them. I over do veggies and I can be literally bed bound. I am not militant with other's diets. I feel to each his own and we each are only experts in what works for us. I know I have tried other plans and while I did loose weight I was not healthy.
I am now. So if it means now I am ok with a salad every other day then I will continue. If I notice joint pains and other signs then the salads will be gone. If I do the salads awhile and notice I am still doing well and everything is stable I may add in another veggie carb. For most, the balance has to do with gaining weight, and while I am happy where I am at now and want to stay this way my balance has to do with my disease control. I know that my future will mean constant changing of things and I am not opposed to that.

I am also not alone in my way of eating. There are people that have maintained this WOE for most of their adult life. Just because people do not come online and post their stories does not mean they do not exist. They do :)

Here is an email I sent to a list I own. A member was asking about my WOE....

You had asked about my WOE in regards to health issues I have. I have lupus and type 2 diabetes. I have tried ADA, South Beach and Atkins. Both helped me loose some weight BUT I never had full blood glucose control and my lupus was very active with swollen sore arthritic joints. I had 0 energy to do anything. I had done some reading about how super low carb cut down on inflammatory processes and approached my DR about it. He did say that he had learned that too and together we decided that a 0 carb or as close to 0 (consuming no grains, veggies, sugars) would be ok to try. I did this for a few weeks and he checked me out with lab work. My lab work was fine and he ok'ed it longer and I have had lab work done monthly. My A1C is now in the normal range, my lupus flags are all normal so that is in remission, my joints are not swollen (unless I overdo my carb up days), I have my energy back and my life. I am now in college again and able to work full time and be a real mom to my 4 young kids. I have done this since January and have lost about 30 lbs since then.

MeBLady

Fri, Jun-09-06, 22:38

It works for maintaining just fine. I could continue and eat the same way (0 carb) and my body would set it's own weight as long as was consuming enough fat, protein, calories. It is not a starvation diet where you would continue to loose indefinitely.

It does seem that most of us tend to stall out on our own when our bodies are at a weight it wants, rather than have to intentionally stop weight loss....I've seen a few that have had to intentionally stop.

My weight loss definitely slowed on its own, I have yet to see if I will gradually drop more -- think I could if I "forced", but I don't want to put myself in the position of restricting.

I have maintained about 111-114 for almost a month now. I have no set plans for my future as far as eating is concerned.

Do you miss carbs, or fear at some point that you will? Or, have they just become a forbidden food with a choice between eating badly v. health?

My issues are not as much related to weight as they are in pure health. Some people think veggies are harmless and for most they are, but not for some, and I am one of them. I over do veggies and I can be literally bed bound. I am not militant with other's diets. I feel to each his own and we each are only experts in what works for us. I know I have tried other plans and while I did loose weight I was not healthy.

I am the same way....I've lost weight successfully through plenty of trendy diets over a period of 18 years. I started LC at the highest weight I've ever been, and was scared to death an unhealthy diet would simply do more damage. I HAD to feel very confident that this was a healthy way to eat.
As much as I did, very much, want to lose weight, health concerns were the number one priority.

Is it just veggies that your body seems unable to tolerate? Do you have bad reactions to LC bread, fruit, nuts? You mentioned before dairy doesn't sit well with you.

My dad is diabetic, went on a doctor prescribed LC that was along the lines of SB. Had a lot of trouble at first keeping his blood sugar even, I could see where eliminating all carbs could help with that specific issue. I could also see where a larger quantity of healthy fats would attack inflammation and LDL/HDL issues.

Have you had any problems with vitamin deficiencies and felt the need to supplement with antioxidants/flavonoids?

I could probably live off of meat/eggs/cheese long term myself (not forever, but a long time). I'm an extremely picky eater, really don't like veggies that much, and still have to work to keep enough in my diet on a regular basis. If I lower my carbs in the 10/15 range tho and don't get at least three servings on *most days, I feel it -- I'm fatigued, my muscles/joints ache, and I struggle to breathe. Thankfully, the dark greens are veggies that my eating preferences tolerate best, and over time, I've learned to actually enjoy them, especially since I can smother them in fat, LOL.

I am also not alone in my way of eating. There are people that have maintained this WOE for most of their adult life. Just because people do not come online and post their stories does not mean they do not exist. They do :)

My thoughts/opinions upthread are based solely on what I have seen in this forum. This is the only place where I have seen a fairly large group practicing a LC WOE/WOL. I did see, tho, plenty of m/e "fasters"....enough to form an opinion that it was risky after watching them long term, but I do think a large factor is the mindset of dieting to lose weight v. a real WOL.

Dieting to lose weight thinking one can go back to eating normally at some point is a common misconception with all "diets", LC, and certainly m/e, being no exception. However, I think those with this mindset tend to lean more to extremes.

One can declare their WOE as a WOL all day long, but the true test is when that weight is finally off...IMO, it isn't until this point that the WOE does truly become a WOL....IF it does actually become a WOL.

Another thing to look at, well within the topic of this thread is the actual definition of what "success" is. For some, achieving weight loss is solely their success. For those of us who have existing medical problems/disorders or abused our bodies for a number of years -- improving health is a large deciding factor of success.

There are purist and hedonist approaches to each and every LC plan out there, and I do agree with you that we are our own experts in what best works for us....not only what is best for our own bodies, but also our own goals in what we want to achieve out of this WOL. Those things are definitely going to vary among each individual.

Man, that was a friggin ramble! My apologies to anyone that actually got this far. LOL.