trans fat madness...

[ldcowboy]

Background: Before I got hooked on computers, I was a geochemistry major in college. I have had a year of serious organic chemistry.

IMHO: People who say that "all trans fats are bad" do not know their chemistry. Conjugated linoleic acid (CLA) is touted as a fat-burning, muscle-saving supplement. I personally take it and it does work. The catch is that CLA is a mixture of trans fatty acids! The Tonalin brand is a 50/50 mixture of the cis-9/trans-11 and trans-10/cis-12 isomers (according to the posters in the Nutrition & Supplements forum.) If "all trans fats are bad", why is CLA good for you???

Background: A fat is composed of a molecule of glycerine combined with three fatty acids. The three fatty acids need not be the same. Fatty acids can be short chain, medium chain, or long chain. Fatty acids can also be saturated, monounsaturated, or polyunsaturated. Monounsaturated and polyunsaturated fatty acids have double bonds (-C=C-) which can be either cis or trans.

- ldcowboy

Resources:
Go to the Nutrition & Supplements forum and look for forums having CLA in the subject line. Lots of information there.

The website http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/mike8.htm has an introduction to CLA.

[Wyvrn]

Good point about CLA... It's the artificially hydrogenated stuff that's dangerous.

Wyv

[ButterflyA]

THANK YOU! I was Pre-med for three years and I kept trying to explain to people the difference and NO ONE got it...

People only hear what they want to, I'm convinced :D

[KryssiMc]

I thought that the only bad trans fats were the partially hydrogenated ones? Like in Cool Whip. Is this still true?

[Dodger]

When people on this forum say to avoid trans fats, they are talking about the man-made ones from the poly-sat vegetable oils. The evidence for trans fats being unhealthy is based on consumption of partially hydrogenated vegetables oils, not consumption of CLA.

"Willet et al reported findings from the Nurses Health Study, a prospective study involving more than 85,000 women, showing that intake of trans fatty acids was significantly and independently associated with incidence of CHD. The association was only seen for for trans fatty isomers from hydrogenated vegetable oils. The mainly different trans isomers from ruminant fats did not show such an association. A case-control study in 239 people suffering an acute myocardial infarction found that after adjustment for age, sex and energy intake, intake of trans fatty acids was directly related to risk of myocardial infarction. Those with the highest intake of trans fatty acids had twice the risk of myocardial infarction as those with the lowest intakes after adjusting for other cardiovascular risk factors. As with the Nurses Health Study, the association was only seen for trans isomers from partially hydrogenated vegetable oils."

From: Department of Health (1994) Nutritional Aspects of Cardiovascular Disease, Report of the Cardiovascular Review Group of the Committee of Medical Aspects of Food Policy (COMA). Report No. 46. London: HMSO.

CLA (and its benefits and/or harmful effcts) has been discussed on this site quite often, for examples.
http://forum.lowcarber.org/showthread.php?t=248898
http://forum.lowcarber.org/showthread.php?t=213086

[ldcowboy]

Rather than people saying "avoid trans fats", would it be better to say "avoid partially hydrogenated vegetable oil" and avoid confusion? I can see PCRM (the vegan diet-mongers) shouting "All trans fats BAD! Meat and milk contains trans fats! Go Vegan!"

The article which set this thread in motion was the news that the NYC health department was wanting restaurants to stop serving food containing "trans fats". I'm reading the article and headline closely and in the article, the health department clearly wants the restaurants to avoid partially hydrogenated vegetable oil.

Dodger, thanks for the information. It is appreciated.

- ldcowboy

P.S. It sounds like a great doctoral thesis in human nutrition would be the nutritional and biochemical effects of the various separate fatty acids. That would probably have some real stunners.

[BBQgal]

Hi,
I haved learned so much since I have joined this forum. This is very interesting.
Annie

[ProfGumby]

I have learned a lot here as well, and I do take CLA, but smaller than the recommended dosage on the bottle as it makes me nauseous if I take the recommended dose.

That being said, I am glad it was spelled out so well in your post, and thanks for the info.

But as to the ban trans fats, it is not my fault they named partially hydrogenated oils trans fats.

Those are particularily nasty and have to go!

[TheCaveman]

If "all trans fats are bad", why is CLA good for you???


Is anyone not selling it or taking it claiming CLA to be good for humans? I hadn't heard about that.

Rather than people saying "avoid trans fats", would it be better to say "avoid partially hydrogenated vegetable oil" and avoid confusion? I can see PCRM (the vegan diet-mongers) shouting "All trans fats BAD! Meat and milk contains trans fats! Go Vegan!"

No, telling people to avoid trans fats is pretty unconfusing, in my opinion. Are you really so worried about the vegans messing up your definitional hairsplitting, all for the love of a totally unnecessary dietary supplement?

[ldcowboy]

I'm worried about the mass media and CSPI confusing people, and the vegan diet-mongers misleading people. Grass-fed meat and milk natually contain CLA.

Background: CLA is apparently formed in ruminant animals (animals which eat vegetation and "ferment" it in a number of stomach chambers.) The microbes fermenting the vegetation act on linoleic acid (a polyunsaturated fatty acid), converting it either to CLA isomers or intermediates which the animal converts to CLA.

Personally, I take 4 grams of Tonalin CLA a day. I have noticed more muscle definition in my legs after starting the supplement. My exercise program is to walk six miles six days a week.

- ldcowboy

A website I found with more information is:

http://www1.agric.gov.ab.ca/$department/newslett.nsf/all/wfbg
"Barbecues, Green Forages and CLA"

Some important paragraphs from this website are:


------------------------------------------------------------

Essential fatty acids are nutrients we must have to stay healthy. It's impossible for our bodies to make these fatty
acids on their own, so we must eat foods that contain them.

Linoleic acid is an essential fatty acid that is a chain of 18 carbon atoms. It has two double bonds in the middle and is
missing 4 hydrogen atoms (i.e. poly-unsaturated). Linoleic acid is needed to keep membranes healthy, make
prostaglandins and a number of other compounds.

Conjugated linoleic acid (CLA) is formed when the double bonds that are present in linoleic acid are moved one
carbon atom closer together. Normally the double bonds in linoleic acid are between the 9th and 10th and between
the 12th and 13th carbon atoms. In conjugated linoleic acid, they are between the 9th and 10th and between the
11th and 12 th carbon atoms. The double bonds can be configured two ways (cis or trans), so that there are a
number of twins (isomers) of CLA.

For the "good" CLA isomers, the shift of a bond just one position creates a molecule that has been shown to protect
experimental animals from cancer and arteriosclerosis as well as changing the ratio (repartition) of fat to lean in a
number of mammals.

The most desirable type (isomer) of CLA is produced most consistently and naturally by the microflora that live in
the rumen (first stomach compartment) of ruminant animals like cattle and sheep. CLA is formed by the digestion of
dietary linoleic acid. The CLA is readily absorbed by the animal from the rumen and ends up in milk, meat and fat.

The concentration of CLA in animal products varies, partially due to diet and management practices. For instance,
the CLA content in milk fat was higher when cows were grazed rather than when they were fed grain
concentrates. When concentrates were supplemented with unsaturated fatty acids such as corn oil, CLA levels in
milk fat rose.


Copyright and Official Marks

This material, including copyright and marks under the Trade Marks Act (Canada), is owned by the Government of
Alberta and protected by intellectual property law.

Material may not be used or reproduced for commercial purposes without the prior written consent arranged by the
Web Editor. If it is reproduced or redistributed for non-commercial purposes, Crown copyright is to be
acknowledged.

-----------------------------------------------------------

[TheCaveman]

I'm worried about the mass media and CSPI confusing people, and the vegan diet-mongers misleading people.

Since there's no mention of this in the mass media or from the Center or from vegans, it seems that the only confusing and misleading is being done by you?

Did you see this in that page you cited?:

"When a ruminant animal produces CLA naturally the prospect of producing other harmful compounds along with the desired compounds is small. This is not the case for artificially manufactured CLA. Thus it is safer for the public to eat naturally produced beef, lamb or milk than as an artificially produced dietary supplements."

(This link works for me: Link (http://www1.agric.gov.ab.ca/$department/newslett.nsf/37ac0bef4de4868787256bab00709a80/309290b21a4d86cc87256a4f006dc629!OpenDocument) )

[Christal]

OMG, my head is spinning....I just gotta know....is margerine really one step away from plastic??:)

[ldcowboy]

Well, chemically speaking margarine isn't only one step away from plastic... but give me real peanut butter instead any day! Real peanut butter freshly ground from peanuts and ONLY peanuts! Peanut butter which you grind yourself at the store and store in the refrigrator.

- ldcowboy

[quinn]

As Dodger notes, there is quite an association between consuming trans fats (PHVO) and coronary heart disease. Note that CHD was relatively rare in this country until the beginning of the 20th century. Margarine and shortening were introduced at the beginning of the 20th century!

[grandpa]

Over simplified headlines are what spur misinformed opinion. Examples: "all fat is bad", "red meat is bad", or closer to home "all carbs are bad".

[tom sawyer]

A fat is a fat. You need enough of the ones that you make prostaglandins from (CLA right?), otherwise they are just structural components of cells and energy substrates.

Lets be clear here. There is an association between trans fats and coronary heart disease WHEN YOU CONSUME THEM AS PART OF A HIGH CARB DIET. Right? But then again, consuming natural fats in sufficient quantities as part of a high carb diet, also contributes to CHO? Doesn't it? So why would we believe the one dat and not the other? Just because of a phobia about something that is chemically modified? Natural compounds are chemicals too, some of our most toxic substances are all natural.

I'm betting that the stress of worrying about all this crap, is more detrimental to health than eating margarine. My own advice is, eat butter if you can afford it because it tastes better. Otherwise eat margarine and don't fret over it. But stay away from the carbs.

Caveman I've been reading up on memetics ever since you and someone mentioned them here, great stuff. Have you ever considered that the controvery over transfats is just the latest virus of the mind?

[tom sawyer]

Here is my take on the data.

When you eat carbs, you put your whole system in a state of constant inflammation. I have found this to be true myself, because since LCing my acne has gotten better and my asthma has basically gone away. It isn't just the weight loss, because when I eat carbs now I will break out within a day or so.

Anyway, when your system is inflamed, you are more likely to develop arterial plaques. And I would agree that transfats appear to enhance the formation of such plaques. However, what I would not agree with, is that without the underlying inflammation cause by carbs, that the transfats would be causing plaque formation on their own. That is extrapolating too far with the data that exists. There is way too much over-interpretation in the scientific community. They take some simple data and make a big convoluted story out of it, and keep building on it without ever being able to know if it is correct. So you have this hypothesis that there is a hormonal basis for the bad things that transfats supposedly do, which would be OK if it weren't for the fact that they miss the fact that it is the carbs that set everything up in the first place.

And as always, I could be wrong and generally am.

[TheCaveman]

Natural compounds are chemicals too, some of our most toxic substances are all natural.

Yeah, but being bitten by a snake is a little different than putting toxic substances into food that we can't avoid.

Caveman I've been reading up on memetics ever since you and someone mentioned them here, great stuff. Have you ever considered that the controvery over transfats is just the latest virus of the mind?

I think that "virus of the mind" oversells the concept, presuming that the virus is bad. Honestly, I don't think we have the mental capacity to determine whether our memes are good or bad.

Take a fear of snakes, for example. Snake fear is probably genetic (not memetic), since those of us with The Snake Freakout Gene live longer on average. You've got to know quite a lot about snakes not to be startled by some squiggly thing in the water next to you.

Memes are better examined in the context of modern things. For instance The Don't-Touch-Anything-You-Don't-Have-To-In-A-Public-Bathroom Meme. Is avoiding germs good or bad for us? At the personal level, it appears this meme is strong.

I think The Transfat Fear Meme could come from the same place The Genetic Engineering Fear Meme or The Atomic Fear Meme come from. We've been totally screwed so many times before that it's really not those memes running at all. More likely, it's The Fear-Anything-New GENE. Let the suckers among us prove that something is okay first. Again, precaution seems to be selected for. I'm certainly not worried that someone eating transfat is going to outbreed me. So let them at it, I say.

[grandpa]

... it's The Fear-Anything-New GENE. Let the suckers among us prove that something is okay first.

http://www.usatoday.com/tech/columnist/kevinmaney/2005-06-21-nano-pants_x.htm

This is a humorous and thought provoking article by Kevin Maney in USA Today. The title is: "Scared of nano-pants? Hey, you may be onto something"

He describes the various science discoveries throughout the years and wonders why some were embraced (X-ray machines in shoe stores) and many are not these days. (khaki pants treated with nanotechnology)

The article is fun and puts things into perspective.