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theanswer
Sat, Aug-07-04, 22:01
I’ve been a casual observer to these boards for a few weeks now, and I now feel compelled to share my $.02

I respect the fact that there are some intelligent people on this board –people who have done their homework. I also realize that nothing I say will convince anybody here otherwise, and that there will be negative responses to this post. I understand, and fully respect your opinions. I have read Atkins book (New diet revolution), I just don’t agree with most of his conclusions. I find humour in the fact that people assume that if you’ve read the book, then surely you must agree with it. Based on other research, and my own clinical experience – I have to say that I am not convinced.

This board is truly entertaining on many fronts. First of all, this section in particular is entitled “war zone”. Call me crazy, but this denotes to me that there may be (get ready for this)…opinions that differ from the LC way of life! In reading posts by Wildcard and more recently, Willam - it was amusing to me just how sensitive and irritable low carbers get when somebody suggests ideas that are even remotely out of the confines of your safe little low carb asylum (irritability, is after all a side effect of low carb) . If the intention of this board is to be strictly for “support”, then I would encourage the moderators to eliminate this category altogether, or at the very least, direct contributors to the “please read before posting here” section.

Now, on to other issues. I will explain why I don’t think LCD’s (particularly Atkins) are the be-all-end-all health panacea they are being touted as. I will even save you the trouble of responding to my assertions by giving you the “typical” low carb response in certain cases. But first, some common ground.

Yes, we know that refined grains and sugar are not conducive to good health, and can (as a result of excess calories and the affect of the insulin overreaction) result in excess weight gain. We hardly need to buy Atkins books (and hybrids) to tell us this. Every dietician I have encountered agrees with this. Which brings me to my first point.

1)Interesting how dieticians are constantly bashed on this board (again, for not conforming to the tyranny of low carb pride). I don’t know ANY RD that espouses eating a lot of REFINED carbs – unless they are training. And all of them recommend moderating sugar. Susan Kleiner (PhD, RD) for one, encourages moderate carbohydrate, and higher protein eating. You cannot expect experts such as RD’s and other health care professionals to instantaneously change their entire philosophies when they have substantially more research to back up their methods.

Low carber response: “Nooooo, dieticians are all out to get low carb, and they are all biased and narrow-minded.

2)As an appendage to point #1: The onus should be on low carbers to substantiate their claims and provide blind, peer-reviewed, carefully controlled research of the long term safety and efficacy of the diet. Thus far, the only thing they have proven is that the diet produces short-term weight loss. Show me a five year, ten year, twelve-year study that demonstrates long-term weight loss success, lower heart disease risk factors (LDL cholesterol, abdominal adiposity, triglycerides, C-reactive protein, homocystine, etc). Atkins and his successors have had plenty of opportunity to do so since 1972. This glibly leads me into point #3

3)What do you define as “works”? In the case of Atkins, it seems as though success is measured primarily by the scale weight. Very intuitive of him as losing scale weight through water and carbohydrate loss is expected. Further weight loss is due to a reduction of TOTAL CALORIES, not eliminating “fattening” carbs.

Low carber response: You are ignorant and you should be shot. I eat way more than I ever did with the evil low fat/high carb eating!
My rebuttal: Probably not – ketosis causes a loss of appetite, and eliminating an entire food group will make it very difficult to eat excess calories. I give Dr. A credit here – the man had some good foresight.

4)The entire premise (carbs are making us fat) is flawed: Consider that in the past 20 years, the caloric intake for every man, women and child has increased by over 400 Kcals. Yes, many of them were simple carbs in the form of high fructose corn syrup (which does have an effect on fat accumulation). But as I mentioned before, I agree with you there. Cutting out any whole grain is asinine and completely unnecessary. Whole grain consumption has been shown to; Lower high cholesterol, lower high blood pressure, lower blood insulin levels and reduce body fat (Framingham Heart Study – the world’s largest study of heart disease, published in the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition). Including smaller amounts of refined grains and sugar once in a while in the diet should be enough to help curb cravings and not impact fat loss whatsoever. The word “carbs” should never be used unless preceded by the words “good” or “bad”

Low carber response: No – Atkins told us all that carbs are all wrong, and we believe him.

5)Restricting that many fruits and whole grains makes it almost impossible to get all the necessary vitamins, minerals and especially phytochemicals: It’s no coincidence that Atkins Nutritionals sells expensive supplements to be used with his diet. But it is impossible to reproduce the effects of phytochemicals (that only come from plants) in a pill. Plus, even on the maintenance phase of the diet, it is still low in fiber and high in saturated fat.

6)Healthy Populations Eat Carbs: The idea that a high carb diet is responsible for obesity and illness (a concept supported by low carb plans) is completely contradicted by many population-based studies. For instance, in Japan, carbohydrates compose the overwhelming majority of daily caloric intake. High carb foods like grains, rice, and vegetables are daily staples of Japanese life, and intake of high protein, high fat animal products is minimal. In contrast to the reported "evils" of carbohydrates touted by low carb plans, Japan has one of the lowest rates of obesity, heart disease, cancer and diabetes in the world. Enough said.


7)Atkins: Flawed and misleading studies: The research says the Atkins Diet makes people sick. The most recent study paid for by the Robert C. Atkins Foundation found three of the 59 participants in the Atkins group dropped out; 2 because of a rise in LDL-cholesterol and one because of shakiness and uneasiness. Many troublesome problems occurred frequently in the low-carbohydrate diet (Atkins) group. (From Atkins own study)

Symptom (% of patients complaining)

Constipation (68%)
Headache (60%)
Halitosis (38%)
Muscle cramps (35%)
General weakness (25%)
Diarrhea (23%)
Rash (13%)

Further, overly favourable Atkins studies, including two recent, prominent studies were funded by the Atkins foundation (University of Duke and UConn)
Plus the website features “independent scientific studies” that have, as they say, “consistently and repeatedly vindicated” the Atkins diet. But, 5 of these 18 studies are just unpublished abstracts. Another 6 are either solely funded by the Atkins foundation or written by co-authors of other studies solely funded by Atkins. And, according to the New England Journal of Medicine (May 2000), this is a conflict of interest, since “the boundaries get blurred” and the sponsor always tends to get the results they want and pay for.

8)Exercise is the number one factor when it comes to body fat management and long term success. A strictly controlled carb diet does not allow for optimal fueling of the muscles during exercise and results in a lowered exercise capacity.

9)Increasing daily exercise should be the primary goal – rather than “weight loss”. By increasing activity levels, even if you don’t notice a major difference is scale weight, you can drastically reduce coronary risk factors. People who exercise regularly can enjoy a variety of foods (including pasta, potatoes, etc.) and do not have to worry about counting carbs. This will also improve insulin sensitivity, and increase the production of fat-burning hormones, enzymes and neurotransmitters. I believe that people can achieve optimal health by eating outside the confines of the traditional food guide pyramid, but I think low carb has gone to too much of an extreme. I agree with regular consumption of healthy fats such as omega-3’s and monounsaturated fats. I also believe that one can consume up to 2g/kg of protein safely (lean sources are best).


This is all for now – if I think of anything else (and if I don’t get kicked off this board) I would be happy to contribute some more thoughts.

Oh, and God Bless you, Lauren L – very courageous. It is unfortunate that people are callous enough to call you a liar.

Foster GD, Wyatt HR, Hill JO, McGuckin BG, Brill C, Mohammed BS, Szapary PO, Rader DJ, Edman JS, Klein S. A randomized trial of a low-carbohydrate diet for obesity. N Engl J Med. 2003 May 22;348(21):2082-90.

Stern L, Iqbal N, Seshadri P, Chicano KL, Daily DA, McGrory J, Williams M, Gracely EJ, Samaha FF. The Effects of Low-Carbohydrate versus Conventional Weight Loss Diets in Severely Obese Adults: One-Year Follow-up of a Randomized Trial. Ann Intern Med. 2004 May 18;140(10):778-785.

Samaha FF, Iqbal N, Seshadri P, Chicano KL, Daily DA, McGrory J, Williams T, Williams M, Gracely EJ, Stern L. A low-carbohydrate as compared with a low-fat diet in severe obesity. N Engl J Med. 2003 May 22;348(21):2074-81.

Yancy WS Jr, Olsen MK, Guyton JR, Bakst RP, Westman EC. A Low-Carbohydrate, Ketogenic Diet versus a Low-Fat Diet To Treat Obesity and Hyperlipidemia: A Randomized, Controlled Trial. Ann Intern Med. 2004 May 18;140(10):769-777.

Brehm BJ, Seeley RJ, Daniels SR, D'Alessio DA. A randomized trial comparing a very low carbohydrate diet and a calorie-restricted low fat diet on body weight and cardiovascular risk factors in healthy women. J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2003 Apr;88(4):1617-23.

Sharman MJ, Gomez AL, Kraemer WJ, Volek JS. Very low-carbohydrate and low-fat diets affect fasting lipids and postprandial lipemia differently in overweight men. J Nutr. 2004 Apr;134(4):880-5.

Volek JS, Sharman MJ, Gomez AL, Scheett TP, Kraemer WJ. An isoenergetic very low carbohydrate diet improves serum HDL cholesterol and triacylglycerol concentrations, the total cholesterol to HDL cholesterol ratio and postprandial pipemic responses compared with a low fat diet in normal weight, normolipidemic women. J Nutr. 2003 Sep;133(9):2756-61.

Volek JS, Sharman MJ, Gomez AL, DiPasquale C, Roti M, Pumerantz A, Kraemer WJ. Comparison of a very low-carbohydrate and low-fat diet on fasting lipids, LDL subclasses, insulin resistance, and postprandial lipemic responses in overweight women. J Am Coll Nutr. 2004 Apr;23(2):177-84.

Sondike SB, Copperman N, Jacobson MS. Effects of a low-carbohydrate diet on weight loss and cardiovascular risk factor in overweight adolescents. J Pediatr. 2003 Mar;142(3):253-8.

Westman EC, Yancy WS, Edman JS, Tomlin KF, Perkins CE. Effect of 6-month adherence to a very low carbohydrate diet program. Am J Med. 2002 Jul;113(1):30-6.

Sharman MJ, Kraemer WJ, Love DM, Avery NG, Gomez AL, Scheett TP, Volek JS. A ketogenic diet favorably affects serum biomarkers for cardiovascular disease in normal-weight men. J Nutr. 2002 Jul;132(7):1879-85.

Volek JS, Sharman MJ, Love DM, Avery NG, Gomez AL, Scheett TP, Kraemer WJ. Body composition and hormonal responses to a carbohydrate-restricted diet. Metabolism. 2002 Jul;51(7):864-70.

Volek JS, Gomez AL, Kraemer WJ. Fasting lipoprotein and postprandial triacylglycerol responses to a low-carbohydrate diet supplemented with n-3 fatty acids. J Am Coll Nutr. 2000 Jun;19(3):383-91.

Kwiterovich PO Jr, Vining EP, Pyzik P, Skolasky R Jr, Freeman JM. Effect of a high-fat ketogenic diet on plasma levels of lipids, lipoproteins, and apolipoproteins in children. JAMA. 2003 Aug 20;290(7):912-20.
Alford BB, Blankenship AC, Hagen RD. The effects of variations in carbohydrate, protein, and fat content of the diet upon weight loss, blood values, and nutrient intake of adult obese women. J Am Diet Assoc. 1990 Apr;90(4):534-40.

Gutierrez M, Akhavan M, Jovanovic L, Peterson CM. Utility of a short-term 25% carbohydrate diet on improving glycemic control in type 2 diabetes mellitus. J Am Coll Nutr. 1998 Dec;17(6):595-600.

Hays JH, DiSabatino A, Gorman RT, Vincent S, Stillabower ME. Effect of a high saturated fat and no-starch diet on serum lipid subfractions in patients with documented atherosclerotic cardiovascular disease.
Mayo Clin Proc. 2003 Nov;78(11):1331-6.

1 Larosa JC, Fry AG, Muesing R, Rosing DR. Effects of high-protein, low-carbohydrate dieting on plasma lipoproteins and body weight. J Am Diet Assoc. 1980 Sep;77(3):264-70.

Heart Disease, Alternative Medicine Digest, Burton Godlberg Group, 1998

Reclaim Your Health, David & Anne Frahm, Penguin Putnam

Fats that Heal, Fats that Kill, Udo Erasmus, Alive Books, 1993

The Healing Power of Foods, Michael Murray, N.D. Prima Pub. 1993
Carmichael, H.A. 1982. Uses of nutritional precursors of Prostaglandin El in the management of Rheumatoid Arthritis & Chronic Coxsackie Infection. Clin Uses of Essential Fatty Acids. Horrobin, ed. Eden Press Inc.

Health Eating for Healthy Joints, Mark Occhipinti, M.S., Ph.D., N.D. [candidate] Vermilion Press. 1999

The New Arthritis and Common Sense, Mark Occhipinti, M.S., Ph.D., N.D. [candidate] Vermilion Press. 1999

tamarian
Sat, Aug-07-04, 22:23
1) Registered dieticians education is quite different from scientists. You show too much faith in RD's word, but you might want to read some biochemistry. You're essentially saying policy is more important than science!

2) Have you actually read the citations you have listed? Most of them don't support such RD's views.

3) Are there any long term research and studies in support of high-carb, low-fat diets?

The onus would be on low-fat, high-carb diets to show long term studies, since they are the ones introducing new changes to the historical human diet.

Why should low-carb diets introduce research to disprove the theories of the 70's political decisions?

4) Don't trust PETA/PCRM research blindly, even the Anti- low carb medical establishment have discredited it, for obvious reasons.

Wa'il

TheCaveman
Sat, Aug-07-04, 22:26
I think the answer you're looking for lies in human evolutionary biology. Current nutritional science (and most of the people on this forum) has yet to acknowledge its existence.

You want a long-term study? How about 3.5 million years long? Long enough for you?

Harvey
Sun, Aug-08-04, 00:11
I take exception to the answers you posted that low carbers would give.

You have written these answers as if they were coming from some mindless morons.

I find your post to be arrogant and insulting. I resent your negative aspersions on Dr.Atkins.

I hope that you are not kicked off the board. I want my enemies out in the open where I can do proper battle!

Eddie

KetoOwnsMe
Sun, Aug-08-04, 00:23
This thread is funny.

rloveman
Sun, Aug-08-04, 00:35
Personally, I don't really understand this section of the boards, either. Why do low-fat believers CARE what we think and why do they feel the need to argue with us about it? I've never once gone to a low-fat-dieting support site to heckle.

Eat and let eat, as far as I'm concerned.

DietSka
Sun, Aug-08-04, 03:05
theanswer, if you've been lurking around here for a few weeks as you say you would have noticed the numerous rebuttals to the each point you make. Don't confine yourself to this area of the boards, go over to the "Research and media" forum and check it out, you'll have your answers.

PaulaB
Sun, Aug-08-04, 05:41
You list this set of symptoms


Constipation (68%)
Headache (60%)
Halitosis (38%)
Muscle cramps (35%)
General weakness (25%)
Diarrhea (23%)
Rash (13%)

I had none of these, in fact the usual constipation at the time of my periods has stopped, ok halitosis but that is due to the fact I love garlic the more the better so sometime i have garlic breath. Rash? what rash. As for eating less fruit I am eating more than I ever did with a wider variety.

waterwoman
Sun, Aug-08-04, 06:58
Are all low carb programs the same??? I think not- I enjoy fruits, whole grain cereal/bread, vegetables and lean meat/poultry/fish. Very simple, nourishing food without a lot of "junk". I feel better, my lipid #'s are lower, and have not had any of the symptons reported.

Lisa N
Sun, Aug-08-04, 12:44
First of all, this section in particular is entitled “war zone”. Call me crazy, but this denotes to me that there may be (get ready for this)…opinions that differ from the LC way of life!

And this proves that there is a problem with low carb or that it is somehow wrong how? With 7 billion people on the planet, you are bound to find a variety of opposing opinions on virtually any subject. Personally, I find the War Zone entertaining, especially when people with an agenda show up (some registering repeatedly under various names) to "save" us from our folly as if low carbers aren't intelligent enough to figure out whether their program is safe and effective for them or not.

1)Interesting how dieticians are constantly bashed on this board (again, for not conforming to the tyranny of low carb pride). I don’t know ANY RD that espouses eating a lot of REFINED carbs – unless they are training. And all of them recommend moderating sugar. Susan Kleiner (PhD, RD) for one, encourages moderate carbohydrate, and higher protein eating. You cannot expect experts such as RD’s and other health care professionals to instantaneously change their entire philosophies when they have substantially more research to back up their methods.

I'm sure that there are a few dieticians out there who are open minded to new approaches, however the ones that I've run into are closed minded and biased in favor of a low fat/high carb approach regardless of the situation that the patient presents with refusing to consider any approach but the one that they were schooled in. The fact that you may know a few dieticians that are not as closed minded or biased does not prove that the majority are the same.
As for Susan Kleiner, I should point out that her approach is geared to towards serious athletes and body builders, not many of whom you will find here attempting to lose weight and with her recommendation that no more than 5% of daily calories need to come from fat, her approach is either high carb, high protein or both. http://www.maxsportsmag.com/fatloss/issue13/13fl3.htm

3)What do you define as “works”? In the case of Atkins, it seems as though success is measured primarily by the scale weight. Very intuitive of him as losing scale weight through water and carbohydrate loss is expected. Further weight loss is due to a reduction of TOTAL CALORIES, not eliminating “fattening” carbs.

Nope. What I, and many others here, define as "works" is not only weight loss (wow...70+ pounds of water...I need to be written up in some medical journal if my losses have been nothing but water!) is the lessening or total elimination of health problems experienced while following the recommended high carb food pyramid including diabetes, chronic fatigue, hypertension, IBS, Gastric reflux, etc...
Even after 3+ years on low carb, my blood work demonstrates nothing but improvement across the board with no hint of liver or kidney problems and an A1c that went from 11.8 (on the dieticians, diet) to 5.2 currently. I'd say that qualifies as a program that "works". And yes, I can eat more calories on low carb than I did on low fat/high carb and still lose weight. Did you miss the study where the low carb group was able to consume 300 more calories per day than the high carb group and still lose more weight? :D
http://forum.lowcarber.org/showthread.php?t=142867

4)The entire premise (carbs are making us fat) is flawed: Consider that in the past 20 years, the caloric intake for every man, women and child has increased by over 400 Kcals. Yes, many of them were simple carbs in the form of high fructose corn syrup (which does have an effect on fat accumulation). But as I mentioned before, I agree with you there. Cutting out any whole grain is asinine and completely unnecessary. Whole grain consumption has been shown to; Lower high cholesterol, lower high blood pressure, lower blood insulin levels and reduce body fat (Framingham Heart Study – the world’s largest study of heart disease, published in the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition). Including smaller amounts of refined grains and sugar once in a while in the diet should be enough to help curb cravings and not impact fat loss whatsoever. The word “carbs” should never be used unless preceded by the words “good” or “bad”

I think we've been around this bush before. Unless grains are vitamin fortified, they are not the nutritional panacea that they are made out to be and pale in comparison, nutrition-wise, to the variety of vegetables and fruits (yes, fruits) that low carbers are encouraged to incorporate into their daily menus. There is no substance found in grains that cannot be gotten, usually in far greater abundance, from vegetables and fruits and so, yes, they are unnecessary for good health. Even so, nowhere has Dr. Atkins recommended permanently cutting whole grains from the diet unless a person has a sensitivity or allergy to them. There is no food group that is totally eliminated on a permanent basis from any low carb program unless you consider refined white flour, high fructose corn syrup or sugar to be a food group. ;)
All diets for the purpose of weight loss cut something or greatly limit it whether it be fat, protein or carbs so your point about "cutting" foods from the diet is rather pointless and inaccurate.

5)Restricting that many fruits and whole grains makes it almost impossible to get all the necessary vitamins, minerals and especially phytochemicals: It’s no coincidence that Atkins Nutritionals sells expensive supplements to be used with his diet. But it is impossible to reproduce the effects of phytochemicals (that only come from plants) in a pill. Plus, even on the maintenance phase of the diet, it is still low in fiber and high in saturated fat.

See my reponse above and please provide scientific evidence for your statement. Also, please clarify whether you are addressing induction levels of carbs (which one stays at for 2 weeks on Atkins and many other low carb plans never require) or another level.
Also, please list fruits (along with their nutritional values) that provide vitamins and minerals that cannot be gotten from another vegetable source. I think you'll be searching for a while, though, because there are none. ;)

6)Healthy Populations Eat Carbs: The idea that a high carb diet is responsible for obesity and illness (a concept supported by low carb plans) is completely contradicted by many population-based studies. For instance, in Japan, carbohydrates compose the overwhelming majority of daily caloric intake. High carb foods like grains, rice, and vegetables are daily staples of Japanese life, and intake of high protein, high fat animal products is minimal. In contrast to the reported "evils" of carbohydrates touted by low carb plans, Japan has one of the lowest rates of obesity, heart disease, cancer and diabetes in the world. Enough said.

I think you'd better check your sources (and their age) again. Currently, Asia (specifically India and China) are leading the world in new cases of diabetes being diagnosed yearly. Stroke rates are higher and they also have a higher incidence of certain cancers (pancreas, stomach, esophogus). Obesity rates are also climbing in nearly all parts of Asia.
http://www.cancer.ca/ccs/internet/standard/0,2704,3172_367655_16546_langId-en,00.html
http://www.idf.org/e-atlas/home/index.cfm?node=104
Japan is known for developing Kobe beef, the fattiest beef on the planet and in many parts of Japan and China, lard is the preferred oil for cooking.
Also, in Asian countries the concept of "free time" has been virtually uknown and unheard of and their physical exertion on a daily basis through work, walking or biking wherever they need to go and just trying to survive (in rural areas) is much higher. Even Dr. Atkins stated that if you want to incorporate more carbs into your daily menus, you need to move your body more. No mystery there. Oh...and the vegetables most commonly consumed....low carb (mushrooms, cabbage, bok choy, bean sprouts, etc...). ;)

7) (I won't even bother to quote it). For years, Dr. Atkins was criticized for not funding studies. When he did, he was criticized for funding them. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
Second, what you failed to note is that nearly every symptom that you listed occurred within the first week and dissipated after that. Drug addicts who are drying out experience unpleasant symptoms also. Should that be used as an argument that addicts should remain addicted simply because removing the addictive substance is unpleasant? And before you argue that we aren't addicts drying out, I'd like to point out that sugar IS an addictive substance (and all digetstible carbs are metabolised to glucose in the body) in that it fits the critera for an addictive substance; it alters brain chemistry, there is increasing tolerance for use, when you withdraw it from consumption there are withdrawal symptoms and cravings for it.

8 and 9) (Again, I won't bother to quote it). Nowhere did Dr. Atkins say that regular excercise should NOT be part of a weight loss regimen, or did you miss the entire chapter of the book titled, "Exercise, it's not optional".
A strictly carb controlled diet is sufficient for all but the most strenuous levels of exercise. Even at 30 grams of carb per day, I have no problem completing a 30 minute workout or walking a couple of miles per day at a rate of 3 mph which is a sufficient level of exercise to provide the benefits you quote. If a person is going to engage in strenous cardio or weight training, they may require more carbs which is why the Atkins program after induction can be tailored to the individual's tolerance and requirements. There have also been at least 2 studies that demonstrate that atheltes perform better on a high fat regimen than they do on a high carb one and one Rugby team recently proved that by training for an winning the England Rugby cup on a low carb regimen. I'd say they're pleased with the team's performance. ;)
Again...a non-argument.

Thanks for providing, once again, an opportunity to debunk the idea that low carbers are doomed to a life of poor health if they incorporate low carb as a lifestyle. :D

Karen D.
Sun, Aug-08-04, 13:41
That was an excellent rebuttal, Lisa. Thank you.

Karen D.

Dodger
Sun, Aug-08-04, 16:46
There have also been at least 2 studies that demonstrate that atheltes perform better on a high fat regimen than they do on a high carb one and one Rugby team recently proved that by training for an winning the England Rugby cup on a low carb regimen. I'd say they're pleased with the team's performance.
Lisa,

Do you have a reference handy for these two studies and the Rugby team?

kyrasdad
Sun, Aug-08-04, 17:08
Good bet that theanswer won't be back. He threw out ignorant generalizations, and got facts in return. He won't engage in a point by point rebuttal to Lisa, because he knows he cannot win one.

LondonIan
Sun, Aug-08-04, 17:20
A quite interesting troll, but honestly - why get sucked in?

OtistheCat
Sun, Aug-08-04, 17:27
Atta girl Lisa!!!! I was recently diagnosed as a Diabetic, I was referred to an RD and was instructed to low carb. I'm gonna follow what she tells me, she's educated, and is in a position where she is "up to date". She probably saved my life. :wave:

RainCM
Sun, Aug-08-04, 17:44
This person is just misled, and has WAY too much time on his hands. If you've got to spend your time searching the internet for ways to pick a fight, I would think your time would be better spent in pursuit of more constructive dialogue.

So this person chooses to ignore the obvious (LF and Low Cal diets definitely have a long, studied history of not working in the long term). That's been the "fad" diet for the last how many decades and look how great THAT's worked out!

To borrow a phrase from a skater friend of mine, "Whatever, dude!" ;)

Lisa N
Sun, Aug-08-04, 18:11
Lisa,

Do you have a reference handy for these two studies and the Rugby team?

Rugby team: http://forum.lowcarber.org/showthread.php?t=149914&highlight=Rugby

High fat and athletic performance:
http://atkins.com/Archive/2002/1/11-902958.html
http://atkins.com/Archive/2002/1/11-936258.html

Lisa N
Sun, Aug-08-04, 18:47
A quite interesting troll, but honestly - why get sucked in?

An interesting Sunday afternoon diversion? ;) :)

nikkil
Sun, Aug-08-04, 19:17
altho I don't agree with the orginal thread-starter I have to admit that it was well-researched and well-argued...

BUT, Lisa's was VERY well done :thup: :thup: :thup: I think it will be 'linked' to many other people questioning this WOE and people who want to low carb but are concerned about it because of misinformation directed to them by various people.

Good reading!

LondonIan
Mon, Aug-09-04, 02:06
An interesting Sunday afternoon diversion? ;) :)True, and after all I did read it :D

jadefox26
Mon, Aug-09-04, 02:43
I think that everyone is entitled to their point of view- i read this with interest as I found it enlightening and encoraging that someone would go to the bother of thinking about LCing in such great detail.
I got to give it to you - you really did take time to write that post.
However, two things, WHY BOTHER? - If you're not interested in the diet or way of life because you dispute the effectiveness of it, then why bother thinking so much about it?
and secondly, does it really matter HOW people lose weight? No, it doesn't, not really - if people chose to lose weight in this way then what the heck - it's not giving you all of the symptoms you stated - so maybe you have to stop and think about other peoples feelings to - you've just come on here and said EXACTLY the kind of thing that you were mocking all of us for!!! Surely you're just being hypocrytical??

adkpam
Mon, Aug-09-04, 07:57
I think Lisa N will be rewarded, karmically, because chances are someone will read her well-reasoned and excellent summary, and be convinced by it if they have doubts.

And let's be honest...weren't you skeptical when you first heard about it? Life without bread...no pasta...bacon and eggs for breakfast. I remember, on my second day, exclaiming to a friend, "I've turned my way of eating inside out and upside down."

A lot of what helped me along that first week was the sharing of experiences and great research here...and I stayed open minded...and think low carb is great!

But just remember, no matter how simple it seems to you now...how strange it looks from the outside.

OtistheCat
Mon, Aug-09-04, 09:33
By the way, I might mention, since Low carbing I have now lost a total of 12 pounds, I am definitely losing, and feeling better, and to top it off... My blood tests show it. My Cholesterol is now below 200, my Sugar has also lowered. I am taking medication for cholesterol, but none for the Diabetes. I will be lowering my cholesterol meds. as well. I am impatient.... I want everything to be OK Yesterday! I just need to be patient. It is working, I am feeling much better and have more energy. So, here's proof in the pudding that low carbing works! It's only been 2 months! :wave:

JL53563
Mon, Aug-09-04, 10:17
"And let's be honest...weren't you skeptical when you first heard about it? Life without bread...no pasta...bacon and eggs for breakfast. I remember, on my second day, exclaiming to a friend, "I've turned my way of eating inside out and upside down.""

I remember thinking to myself when I first started Atkins, "If this doesn't work, I'm going to weigh 300 lbs. in no time" I was about 225 at the time. Well, in the first 4 months I lost about 40 lbs., and another 10 since then. Yes, I was a little skeptical at first. It was exactly the opposite of everything that I had ever been told. But I was quickly convinced. The pounds started dropping off immediately. This has been by far the easiest way I have ever lost weight. I never felt like I was "on a diet". I am never hungry and get to eat lots of satisfying foods. I recently had a check up, and I am in great health. Cholesterol, blood pressure, blood sugar and heart rate are all great.

Hellistile
Mon, Aug-09-04, 10:42
TheAnswer thinks that this board is so funny. However, someday, when he gets older or maybe before, he (ideal weight 135) will be very sick, miserable and maybe dying. He will be searching for answers to help him regain his health. He will eventually try everything imaginable to achieve this goal. Will he find this board funny then? I think not.

It amuses TheAnswer to spout low-fat nonsense to people who have tried low-fat to no avail and who have now cured many of their health problems and concerns by eating low-carb.

TheAnswer can never prove low-carbing doesn't work because it has worked for at least 2-3 million years. What TheAnswer needs to prove is that low-fat eating is healthy for mankind. Low-fat is the fad diet, sprung on an unsuspecting humanity about 30 years ago, that has yet proven to be the healthy way of eating it is proported to be.

hpjrt
Mon, Aug-09-04, 11:31
I agree with you adkpam ... in fact, I saved Lisa N's post so that I have it on hand when I need to have concrete, well-stated arguments for Low Carb ... or even as a good explanation.

Lisa N ... thanks so much for that post. You had reasonable and well researched answers for all the usual tripe that "theanswer" was spouting.

I, personally, think that "theanswer" is just one of those people who love to anger others. I'll bet he/she didn't even do his/her own "research" but cut and pasted from other sources, albeit misinformed sources.

Mary

Trinsdad
Mon, Aug-09-04, 13:31
Your whole post is begging for a fight and shouts "Troll". I don't feed the trolls, they are carb munchers.....

Quinadal
Mon, Aug-09-04, 14:11
http://shinigami.rydia.net/smileys/m-moji.gif ummmm

Personally, I don't really understand this section of the boards, either. Why do low-fat believers CARE what we think and why do they feel the need to argue with us about it? I've never once gone to a low-fat-dieting support site to heckle.

Eat and let eat, as far as I'm concerned.

mrfreddy
Mon, Aug-09-04, 16:19
although I disagree with about 90% of what theanswer posted, I thought I'd just respond to his item 8,

"8)Exercise is the number one factor when it comes to body fat management and long term success. A strictly controlled carb diet does not allow for optimal fueling of the muscles during exercise and results in a lowered exercise capacity."

this is an argument I see fairly often. I invite you, Sir theAnswer, to do a google on Stu Mittleman, or better yet, buy his book Slow Burn (it's only 10 bucks on amazon.com). He is an ultra-long distance runner who runs 20 miles a day, and occaisionaly does things like running across the entire county (the US, that is), averaging 40 - 50 miles a day.

Take a wild guess what kind of diet he follows and advocates?

kyrasdad
Tue, Aug-10-04, 06:56
And let's be honest...weren't you skeptical when you first heard about it? Life without bread...no pasta...bacon and eggs for breakfast. I remember, on my second day, exclaiming to a friend, "I've turned my way of eating inside out and upside down."

You know, not only was I skeptical, I was afraid for a friend who started it. I was worried about all that saturated fat. I told him to rethink it. I was ignorant, and I'd bought into the line that fat is bad. If only we could eliminate fat from our diets, everyone would be thin and healthy, I thought.

To be honest, it low-carb sounded gimmicky and dumb.

I'd spent years not so much dieting, but removing fat from my diet. I'd gladly eat a huge bowl of spaghetti so long as there was no fat. "We need to eat less meat," I told my wife, thinking that would be good for me. I ate rice for lunch, thinking it was healthy (since I was hungry an hour later, I'd usually break down and get a candy bar in the afternoon). I still like rice, but I haven't had any since I started LC.

In short, I was ignorant. I had been sold a bill of goods.

The difference was on low carb, I did more reading before I started into it than I ever bothered to do with low fat. If you do low fat, there is a phalanx of dieticians and government policymakers to validate your choice. You don't need to think, in effect -- smarter people have done the thinking for you. You don't need to research dogma.

Low carbers are probably more expert on nutrition simply because to make the leap to low carb, you had to shed dogma, and that's done through reading and thinking.

That may be changing as low carb "mania" has brought in a lot of marketing and interests similar to the low fat interests of the 90's. You may see more who simply eat meat and buy Carbwell's cookies, and that's too bad.

OtistheCat
Tue, Aug-10-04, 10:12
Well said Kyrasdad.... I'm in total agreement with you. I only wish I had known 5 years ago, what I know today. I would be healthier.... I will get there because I am low carbing and doing well. The RD that I was referred to is very well versed in low carbing. I realize that I was lucky to have found this very knowledgeable RD. I also realize that not all RD's think this way, but I do believe that things are changing! :wave:

Lipid
Thu, Aug-12-04, 01:31
In response to the 'rash' he said we get on low-carb.... I was plagued with little bumps on my arms, forearms and upper arms... well guess what?... after 4 months on low-carb... they are gone!...no new ones coming at all....I also had early onset arthritis where I was into gymnastics as a child and teen (I was told this caused it, but I don't know for sure) and my hips would hurt a lot sometimes... now its been about 2 months since its flared up and I never have went so long without any problems from it....my fasting blood sugar levels have went from the 90's to the 70's (I check them because my Dad is diabetic and I want to keep from getting it if possible).... my blood pressure has went down, it was never high, but was sometimes a little over 120/80... now for more than 2 months it has been about 102/63 every day when I check give or take a couple of points either way....and my weight has went down 45 pounds in 4 months.... I am working out using Bowflex, Total Gym, a exercise ball, bellydancing workout DVD's, free weights, 6 second abs, and taking a 2 mile walk up and down hill every day.....I could not do these things before this WOE...so much for not having the energy to work out.... I admit to feeling a little weak when I purposefully reduce carbs really low to lose faster... but I can still do my work outs and I do them easily on 20 or more carbs a day.

Just wanted to share this because I know many 'lurk' like I used to when I was trying to decide if this was right for me.

nikkil
Thu, Aug-12-04, 04:35
Hey, I had those little bumps, too, and now they're gone! Do you have any idea what caused them?? My DH and one of my son's has them.... I would love to know why and how to get rid of them (other than Atkins) :)

potatofree
Thu, Aug-12-04, 10:28
I have it too. It's called keratosis pilaris. Lovely name for "bumps"...:lol:
http://www.aocd.org/skin/dermatologic_diseases/keratosis_pilaris.html

Mine has improved somewhat as well.

mcflint
Thu, Aug-12-04, 12:09
Hi all,

I'm soooo new to this board, but just wanted to post a reply to this string. I'll try to be non-technical.

The atkins plan works. If it didn't work I wouldn't be on it.

Guess that's about it.

The new kid,
Jerry

OtistheCat
Thu, Aug-12-04, 20:49
Welcome Mcflint! You've lost quite a few pounds already... how long have you been on Atkins? I'm just low-carbing (Diabetic), but have seriously thought of going for Atkins... still considering it! :wave:

Lipid
Thu, Aug-12-04, 20:55
My bumps were a little different from what Potatofree posted.

They were more like little tiny pus filled dots.... I think it may have to do with a wheat allergy in my case, but I don't know for sure.... I suspected I may be allergic to wheat before because of some things I read, so maybe thats it.

Mine were also on my forearms and upper arms.

SafferBabe
Wed, Feb-15-06, 13:22
So he never even bothered to return to this thread. I.e. he was just your standard troll. Which of course says a lot about the mentality of the Atkins bashers, IMO ;)

:wave:

Lessara
Thu, Feb-16-06, 11:06
Lipid, Mine where like that and were caused by my wheat reaction. When I went on low carbing at first they went away. But if you get low carb products with wheat fiber in them they do cause alittle reaction if you eat 1 more if you eat more. So I limit them to once a week if at all. :)

HoneyBunch
Thu, Feb-16-06, 14:32
Maybe he's doing a survey for school :lol:

theanswer-Dont be bashful, come out and join us. Lots of support here! I lost about 25lbs now and healthy then ever. We know you can do it...just believe ;)

bigpeach
Thu, Feb-16-06, 14:37
I'm not about to read the entire soap opera that is this thread but;
1) the one common trait of all successful eating plans is that they eliminate processed foods.
2) I have had multipe dieticians recommend a very low-fat and nearly vegan program...combined with, you guessed it, supplements of all the fat-soluble vitamins, iron, calcium, and all those other important nutrients that are found in great quantities in meat.
3) Most diet 'experts' are either still clinically obese (like Dr Atkins was) or have that scary drawn-in, wrinkled face that is the hallmark of the low-fat plan. (look at any Pritikin spokesperson) Funny what happens when you drastically reduce the nutrient that the body uses to make the cell walls.

bigpeach
Thu, Feb-16-06, 15:03
Oh, and if anyone says LC works via some magic, they're dumb too because all LC does is make it easier to control your caloric intake. Nobody got fat because they ate one scoop of ice cream for desert or one cookie as a snack, or even a piece or two of bread. It is because like me, you couldn't limit your intake of those calorie-rich foods. Once you cut them out, you started losing weight!

DietSka
Fri, Feb-17-06, 01:40
clinically obese (like Dr Atkins was)
... NOT! Here:
http://business2.blogs.com/business2blog/2004/02/was_atkins_real.html
That's him, 2 months before he died.

I don't get it... I don't care if some misinformed hungry vegan thinks good dr. A. was obese before his death, but a low-carber doing Atkins?

Brook
Fri, Feb-17-06, 03:20
... NOT! Here:
http://business2.blogs.com/business2blog/2004/02/was_atkins_real.html
That's him, 2 months before he died.

I don't get it... I don't care if some misinformed hungry vegan thinks good dr. A. was obese before his death, but a low-carber doing Atkins?

Thank you.

bigpeach
Fri, Feb-17-06, 08:51
Well, luckily his death certificate is available at The Smoking Gun. 258lbs at 6ft is clinically obese. I guess we should assume it was from all those carbs the hospital pumped in to him?

Brook
Fri, Feb-17-06, 09:20
Luckily it's available? I find it disgusting being it was never released by his family, but that's beside the point.

When someone is in a coma, their bodies can retain huge amounts of water. People don't put 20+lbs of fat on in the space of a few days.

"Obesity" isn't about weight - it's about fat. Two people can weigh the exact same - one can be athletic and one can be clinically obese. <shrug> The weight doesn't come close to telling the whole story. :)

DietSka
Fri, Feb-17-06, 13:11
Frankly, he could have weighed 4 tons on paper at the time of his death and I still wouldn't care. I'd rather believe my own eyes and looking at those pics, that is not an obese man! And somehow I doubt he quit his lifelong WOE for the last two months of his life to have been obese at the time of his death. ;)

deb34
Fri, Feb-17-06, 13:19
you think you have 'theanswer'?


[/QUOTE]I don’t think LCD’s (particularly Atkins) are the be-all-end-all health panacea they are being touted as.
[QUOTE]

why are you here then?

Fialka
Fri, Feb-17-06, 14:09
"Nobody got fat because they ate one scoop of ice cream for desert or one cookie as a snack, or even a piece or two of bread. It is because like me, you couldn't limit your intake of those calorie-rich foods. Once you cut them out, you started losing weight!"

You know, this response bugs me. Partly because I don't binge, I don't overeat on a regular basis, and never lost weight on a low fat/low cal plan even when combined with exercise (at least not after my adrenal glands failed due to medication side effects. Before that I was thin and did fine on low fat/lo cal). Just b/c you gained weight one way doesn't mean everyone else had the same experience.

As I continue to unravel the mystery of my multiple medical issues, I realize medical science still knows so very little when it comes to our bodies (one symptom of this is the plethora of fad diets and people like the original poster. If we knew, this debate wouldn't exist). So little, that I don't think anyone has any business proclaiming why anyone is overweight and what their problem is.

And to the original poster, go away. I have no patience for you and your misguided opinions. Some of us here have serious medical issues for which low carb is a key component of improving our health. Even if I agreed with you, I could not stop eating low carb because sugar (even fruit) would eventually kill me.

F

sunnysidup
Fri, Feb-17-06, 14:52
Low carbers are moody? Hmm...Can't explain why (since lc-ing) I am no longer depressed, and snapping at people.
Neither do I feel the need to visit weight-loss forums I don't follow to rant, and misquote people.
I have never felt so on top of the world as I do now.

Aetheana
Fri, Feb-17-06, 15:02
Just wanted to point out that some people, one cookie or two slices of bread are poisons. read about celiacs disease.
i can restrict and restrict all i want down to 1000 calories a day for months, but if i keep eating grains, i wont lose a damn thing. its hurt my thyroid and i just cant eat grains. 1 light beer and i bloat up 5 pounds. just 1, not 6. thats not bingeing.

dont overgeneralize. if you do, you'll almost always be wrong.

SurfRider
Fri, Feb-17-06, 18:02
I have really enjoyed reading (for hours) all the responses of each member. I must say that I am all about freedom of speach and thought this person had every right to come here and post, I guess I just dont understand why he would waist (hehe) his time. I mean the majority of us are here for the same reason.

So here, I must say that a LF/high excersice diet didn't work for me at all. I know this because I went on a full track and field scholorship. For 2 1/2 years I tortured my body, ran mile after mile, and still gained weight. My coach put me on a LF/ LC diet and made me also incorporate morning workouts because i was overweight. Sad thing, I WAS! I didn't eat any more than anyone else. I didn't drink more and there was nothing wrong with me medically. However, and athletes diet consist of carbs, lots of them.

Jump ahead 10 years and I tried the atkins. Sorry, but it works. And I find it ignorant that people think that if you are on the atkins you stop eating any carbs! After 8 months last time I ate lots of things. Rice (brown of course) pasta, bread, just everything was whole grain and much better for me. Now, once I found out I was going to have a baby I ruined a year of work and started hitting McDonalds again. It is my nature to eat bad I guess.

Anyway, I enjoy that opinions are getting out. I may not agree, but I learned some good things. Life is about listening. If you let someones comments make you angry then you allowed them to do what they were seaking!

Aloha,
J

Carmen51
Fri, Feb-17-06, 18:04
It is my personal belief that the popularity of low carb diets is the one and only reason that any dieticians or the FDA began even telling people that whole grains are better. Until the Atkins' diet and other low carb plans began to gain popularity, I do not recall reading or hearing a single thing about how everyone should eat whole grains. Then, when low carb diets were receiving a lot of publicity, suddenly, the FDA & dieticians were saying how wonderful whole grains are as if they've been telling us that all along but no one was listening.

My DH was diagnosed with high cholesterol several years ago and we met with a Registered Dietician. At no time did she ever mention eating whole grains or less sugar. In fact, she noted that DH really 'liked sweets' because of his food diary he'd been told to keep for a couple of weeks before the meeting. She told me that I should make him home-made sweets substituting applesauce for part of the fat. Never did she mention eating whole grains. The big evil was the fat - sugar, white flour, and other refined foods were not only fine, but encouraged, as long as they were low or non-fat. The only one who said anything different was the nurse, who very quietly so as not to be overheard and reprimanded, said to me 'sweets can cause high cholesterol, too'. It was not until I read Atkins that I understood what she meant.

As for exercise, I distinctly remember reading in his book that Atkins highly recommeded exercise.

Even if someone disagrees with Atkins' diet, at the very least they should give him credit for beginning a debate about how nutrition affects us and bringing it to the attention of the general public.

Rosebud
Fri, Feb-17-06, 18:26
Well, luckily his death certificate is available at The Smoking Gun. 258lbs at 6ft is clinically obese. I guess we should assume it was from all those carbs the hospital pumped in to him?
But he didn't weigh anything like that on admission. ;) I think it was something like 195.

I can tell you that as an ICU RN, I have seen the same thing happen to people who are in ICU for 10 days or so. They are pumped full of fluids to try to maintain organ functions, but as those organs, kidney, heart, liver etc fail, the fluid is retained.

There have been quite a few threads discussing this since Dr Atkins' death. The information was made available to the PCRM in order to discredit Dr Atkins and low carbing in general. There has been a load of misinformation spread by them about Atkins - the man and the diet - ever since. Their agenda is to turn us all into vegans. And considering that pure "veganism" is incompatible with life, one wonders...

It might also help to remember that this thread was started in 2004. And the OP is long gone.

Rosebud:rose:

kevinpa
Fri, Feb-17-06, 18:37
thats what I have been thinking. the guy who started this thread made 1 other post back in 2004 and then was never heard from again :lol:

talk about hit and run. or driveby

ProfGumby
Fri, Feb-17-06, 20:30
Luckily it's available? I find it disgusting being it was never released by his family, but that's beside the point.

When someone is in a coma, their bodies can retain huge amounts of water. People don't put 20+lbs of fat on in the space of a few days.

"Obesity" isn't about weight - it's about fat. Two people can weigh the exact same - one can be athletic and one can be clinically obese. <shrug> The weight doesn't come close to telling the whole story. :)

You are onto something there!

I detest anyone who uses the information about Dr Atkins being "clinically obese" at the time of his death, in a negative fashion. Like our OP in this thread.

As you have said, that info was released, without the family's consent by Physicians linked to the Physicians Commitee For Responsible Medicine (PCRM). This is totally illegal and violates practically every HIPPA law and every ethical oath Physicians take.

Also, clinically obese is based on the BMI (Body Mass Index). I can show you several people who are fit as a fiddle, and either on the tall side or very athletic and ripped, yet they are considered obese when their stats are plugged into the BMI calculator. I have said it before, the BMI is flawed, many perfectly healthy people do not conform to it's outcome. Especially the physically fit and muscular.

Anyway, this person had an axe to grind and his mission backfired! All the great information that has come out in this thread as to why LC is safe, why it works and how healthy one can really be, may not have been here if our troll hadn't posted!

Also, as to the fruits and grains, one can easily eat plenty of fruits, vegetables and grains and get very healthy levels of phyto nutrients, vitamins, minerals, amino acids and the rest by folowing the LC WOE. Especially in latter stages of the WOE.

The arrogance of the original poster is only exceeded by his ignorance of an LC WOE. In fact I'd bet one could find that exact post, probably written by someone else several other places on the net. I suspect our "friend" was merely spreading someone elses hard work that had merely been plagerized and slightly tweaked to fit this board.

And the funny thing is, no one can stop anyone of us from following a Low Carb lifestyle if we so choose.

So, I don't sweat the trolls or their ignorance, and for the most part I am glad they stay away!