PDA

View Full Version : trying to understand


Welcome to the Active Low-Carber Forums

Support for Atkins diet, Protein Power, Neanderthin (Paleo Diet), CAD/CALP, Dr. Bernstein Diabetes Solution and any other healthy low-carb diet or plan, all are welcome in our lowcarb community. Forget starvation and fad diets -- join the healthy eating crowd! You may register by clicking here, it's free!



seluratep
Mon, May-10-04, 01:01
Hey, guys.

I'm not a low-carber, but this diet has always fascinated me, because of my own issues with eating. I'm anorexic and have been for 6 years now, and I have at times developed a fear of carbs due to this, but these were times when I was only consuming about 300 calories a day, so I pretty much had a fear of food in general.

I'm maintaining my weight now, although I plan on losing again soon, in a month or so when I leave for college. Right now Im around 95-96 lbs at 5'4" so technically Im underweight, but it suits me. Im not as mentally sick now as I have been, but I still must wonder... how does one put so much effort into counting carbs and focusing on food and not mess themselves up mentally? I just dont understand how mentally normal people can "diet" in such a restrictive fashion and not find it completely addicting. If I ever did Atkins, it would start out as a low carb diet, and then Id start cutting everything else out.

But then again, Im already vegan, which means I dont eat meat, dairy, or eggs. I have extremely low cholesteral, at least. lol

And another thing- isnt Atkins primarily a meat based diet? I wont ever eating meat again, because Im an animal activist. So for me, Atkins would mean Id just be eating fruits and veggies... that cant be healthy, can it? Im not saying anorexia is healthy... but why do eating disorders get such a bad reputation when Atkins is glorified. Neither seem very healthy to me.

Hopefully, I will learn the answers to these questions by hanging around here. Feel free to enlighten me, if you can. :)

tofi
Mon, May-10-04, 07:02
... but why do eating disorders get such a bad reputation when Atkins is glorified. Neither seem very healthy to me.

Because EATING DISORDERS lead toward DEATH. They kill because people with eating disorders starve themselves into organ failure as the body consumes its own muscle tissue (including the heart) in a desperate attempt to survive. Because eating disorders involve completely erroneous perceptions of the body as "fat" or "needing to lose weight" while, for example, weighing only 95 pounds at a height of 5'4". A healthy weight range for a woman at 5'4" would be 110-130 pounds, depending on bone size. If this range is achieved by low carb eating, the person will look slender, svelte and be fit and energetic.

Atkins and the mainstream lowcarbing plans lead to HEALTH.

Low carbing will NOT cause a person to lose below a healthy weight. Only starvation can do that. this was proven in the 1930's when the Arctic explorer Stefansson & a colleague ate only meat and fat for 1 whole year. He lost only 6 pounds despite being fit and athletic to begin with, and maintaining a very active life.

Low carbers move toward better blood test numbers, more energy, less body fat, more muscle, better hormonal regulation, digestive health and so much more.

I hope that you will continue with whatever therapy has been helping you and that you won't stop it when you go to college. Everything in your post says that your recovery is not yet completely on the right track. I wish you all the best and hope that you will find your way to health.

tofi
Mon, May-10-04, 07:09
I am just a bit sceptical about the sincerity of the post that begins this thread (in the Journals section) as the member's name is the reverse of "PETA rules".

People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals is a group which is involved in many activities including trashing all low carb plans. Their methods in many areas are extreme and not always honest.

BBQman
Mon, May-10-04, 09:11
What do you mean extreme? Like splashing paint on womens fur coats? The funny thing about that to me is that when that happens, those women will just go buy ANOTHER fur coat, meaning another animal is going to die, BECAUSE of PETA.

Kathy54
Mon, May-10-04, 10:06
Oh Tofi, you are SOOOOOOOOOOOooooooo Sharp!!!

Cheers Kathy :)

Paris
Mon, May-10-04, 10:08
Tofi is the sharpest knife in our drawer today! :D :thup:

galatia
Mon, May-10-04, 10:14
Tofi....excellent response, and I'll bet none of your students get anything past you....Impressive. :) Knowledge is a powerful tool. I hope seluratep, if you do have an eating disorder you get more help....you should care as much about your own life as you do the animals. You, I wouldn't think, starve any of them, yet feel quite powerful doing it to your own self. If you are just trying to make meat eaters feel bad, "how's that workin' for you?"

Breecita
Mon, May-10-04, 10:17
I am just a bit sceptical about the sincerity of the post that begins this thread (in the Journals section) as the member's name is the reverse of "PETA rules".



Ooooh, I'm impressed. I tend to try'n figure out what usernames stand for or say, but that one was quite confusing. Wouldn't have occured to me to read it backwards.

You smaaaaht!

brenski
Mon, May-10-04, 11:02
WOW great job tofi :thup: I would never have seen that.

kay3osu
Mon, May-10-04, 11:10
good catch tofi! positively brilliant!

For "Petarules" backwards: our bodies are meant to eat for fuel and health and LIFE. feeding it veggies, fruit, nuts, seeds, animal protein and healthy fats doesn't deprive our bodies of nutrients. you don't need bread to live....so what are you really restricting? you do however need fat and protein ....however you choose to get it is up to you. if you are still alive at 80 pounds, what do you think your life will be like? do you think you will be with a boyfriend or husband? (if you are, i doubt it will be the kind you would want!!) do you think you will have children? (how ...without your period?) do you think you will be smiling? and laughing and enjoying life? (hooked up to a glucose feeding tube??) do you think people will look at you like you are thin and pretty and healthy? (with your hair falling out and a sunken hollowed vacuous face? they will look at you like you are sick and stare and wonder and for a second, maybe feel sorry for you). what about all the pain you will put the people who love you through? wouldn't you rather spend the next few years getting a healthy life that brings you good things? life throws some curveballs and is not always good or easy or fair. but get out there and give yourself the best chance possible to have some good things. striving for a death weight guarantees beyond a shadow of a doubt that you will never have a chance at anything. (like striving for an A (health) and maybe you'll end up with a B or at least PASSING.....but if you strive for an F(death or close to it) , you have just ensured that you will definitley indeed fail)

an eating disorder is a long drawn out and very painful suicide. you seem like a bright girl. and you are going off to college!!!! that is great! think of the things you can do when you are there! you can begin a whole new life for yourself. instead of making your goal to get really skinny, set your sights on good grades and good friends....and dream a lot about your future and what you want. maybe to get a degree that will one day prevent other young girls from wasting such a hopeful life and going down that same deadly road!! i'm sure they will thank you for years to come. maybe one of those people (or you) will discover the cure for aids or will be healthy enough to tend to her sick grandmother who looks so forward to her visits from her granddaughter??? who knows what good any of us can do if we are not here or not healthy enough to participate in life?

i hardly think an 80 pound skeleton is who PETA would want as their spokesperson........

kay3osu
Mon, May-10-04, 11:17
one more thing, extremely low cholesterol is extremely unhealthy. more so than high cholesterol. especially linked to many mental disorders.........your brain and WHOLE body requires cholesterol to survive.........

Seto Kaiba
Mon, May-10-04, 11:38
All though no 2 people with eating disorders are a like, complex emotional issues are usually a key factor. (Ex. underlying psychological disorder)
The difference between an eating disorder and Atkins (Or WW, Slim fast, etc) is that with the ED there is an underlying issue that isn't being delt with. Rather than face the issue that's eating them, they turn their emotions inward - resulting in restriction, excessing exerising, binging/purging, binging, etc. Rathing than truly expressing how they feel (angry, sad, depressed, etc) they say they feel "fat". Fat is not an emotion or feeling.

If I ever did Atkins, it would start out as a low carb diet, and then Id start cutting everything else out.

Which is why people who have been diagnosed with EDs should not be on any kind of diet, unless it is under the supervision of their therapst or nutritionist. They see eating plans like "Atkins" as an excuse to continue their disordered behavior, when in reality they are not following Atkins at all, but their own distorted version of Atkins.

although I plan on losing again soon, in a month or so when I leave for college. Right now Im around 95-96 lbs at 5'4" so technically Im underweight, but it suits me.

If this is true and you are not here for activism purposes, you really should be seeking professional help rather than posting on a low carbohydrate board.

kpow
Mon, May-10-04, 11:50
First off, all eating issues aside, PETA is a radical animal rights organization that has been linked to known terrorist organizations, such as ELF and ALF. They do not promote animal rights so much as they DEMAND everyone fall in line with their radical way of thinking. What if I demanded that you eat only meat, then use scare tactics when you didn't think like me? It's absurd. FWIW, I'm deeply suspect of anyone claiming moral superiority because they are vegan. Seems like more of an emotional hangup than a rational lifestyle choice.

As far as eating, today's research is pointing out what knowledgeable low-carbers have known for years; this is the way to eat for health. All that low-fat garbage is just that, garbage. Moderate your carbs and your health will improve. Of course you will need to battle your demons with regards to the eating disorder (and I hope and pray you can fix those problems before they kill you).

Kent

Squintz
Mon, May-10-04, 12:25
My fiances aunt has an eating disorder. She is 6 foot tall and only weighs 105 pounds. Here is a warning for those who do have an eatind disorder. My fiances aunt now has a new problem and that is that her body has turned to her skin for food. Her skin from head to toe is tuning brown and black and her doctors tell her that its permanent damage. So if you are starving yourself just so you can look better. Trust me you are only going to end up looking worse in the end.

I wish there was a cure for this sickness!

jedswife
Mon, May-10-04, 14:32
the fact that "seluratep" hasnt responded also is telling.

dear "seluratep":

if you would like to stop your anorexic behavior i sincerely suggest eating nothing but MEAT.

Lisa N
Mon, May-10-04, 15:42
And another thing- isnt Atkins primarily a meat based diet?

No. Low carb (Atkins since you named that plan...there are many others) is primarily a whole foods diet. Veggies are not optional if you follow the plan correctly and on ongoing weight loss through maintainence levels, fruits are encouraged as well as seeds and nuts. Whole grains are also allowed on maintainence if your carb tolerance permits them. Protein can come from many sources besides meat, although animal protein is the best source of all the essential amino acids required by the body. If you are an ovo-lacto vegetarian it's quite possible to follow a low carb regime in a healthy manner using eggs, cheese and soy as your primary protein sources.

I have extremely low cholesteral, at least

Contrary to popular belief, this is not a sign of good health but more a sign of trouble. Those with very low cholesterol levels (below 160 total) are at risk for health problems of their own.
http://www.pslgroup.com/dg/fff8a.htm
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/07/07/1057430139492.html
http://www.ctds.info/low_cholesterol.html

I'm maintaining my weight now, although I plan on losing again soon, in a month or so when I leave for college. Right now Im around 95-96 lbs at 5'4"

I sincerely hope you'll re-think that plan. Whether being underweight for your height "suits you" or not, you are putting your current and future health at risk. If you are currently not already in treatment for your eating disorder, I very much encourage you to seek help. If you are already in treatment, I would encourage you to discuss your weight loss plans with your counselor before attempting it. Compassion for other living things starts with caring for yourself first.

Nancy LC
Mon, May-10-04, 17:37
...and not mess themselves up mentally? I just dont understand how mentally normal people can "diet" in such a restrictive fashion and not find it completely addicting. If I ever did Atkins, it would start out as a low carb diet, and then Id start cutting everything else out.


Well, let me try to put my experience into perspective for you...

An anorexic, if I understand correctly, has a very warped perception of their own body. So their starvation and over-exercising really comes from that skewed perception that they're fat, when in reality they're horribly thin and undernorished.

A dieter of any type, not just on Atkins, has to take more control of their diet and start restricting their choices somewhat and limit their intake. Its something that most people find very difficult and sometimes impossible to do. For most people, hunger is a body signal that is nearly irresistable. It's almost like deciding you're going to pee once a day, no matter what your body tells you. Pretty difficult to do. :p

Every diet I've been on, whether its a low-cal diet, a high carb diet, a low fat diet, a vegan diet, whatever, has restrictions of some sort. Its a matter of habit whether or not you'll find that restrictive or not.

For instance, you say you're a vegan. I'd find that extremely restrictive and would have a lot of trouble adjusting to that. IMHO its far more restrictive than Atkins or any low-carb diet. I can eat almost anything I want, except real starchy and sugary stuff like sugar and flour.

The other thing that makes low carb a lot easier to follow than other higher carb weight-loss diets is that you just don't get as hungry and your calories naturally drop because you're not driven to eat by whatever it is in carbs taht make you hungry again 20 minutes later.

Hope that answers your questions. :)

ItsTheWooo
Mon, May-10-04, 18:00
Hey, guys.

I'm not a low-carber, but this diet has always fascinated me, because of my own issues with eating. I'm anorexic and have been for 6 years now, and I have at times developed a fear of carbs due to this, but these were times when I was only consuming about 300 calories a day, so I pretty much had a fear of food in general.

I'm maintaining my weight now, although I plan on losing again soon, in a month or so when I leave for college. Right now Im around 95-96 lbs at 5'4" so technically Im underweight, but it suits me. Im not as mentally sick now as I have been, but I still must wonder... how does one put so much effort into counting carbs and focusing on food and not mess themselves up mentally? I just dont understand how mentally normal people can "diet" in such a restrictive fashion and not find it completely addicting. If I ever did Atkins, it would start out as a low carb diet, and then Id start cutting everything else out.

But then again, Im already vegan, which means I dont eat meat, dairy, or eggs. I have extremely low cholesteral, at least. lol

And another thing- isnt Atkins primarily a meat based diet? I wont ever eating meat again, because Im an animal activist. So for me, Atkins would mean Id just be eating fruits and veggies... that cant be healthy, can it? Im not saying anorexia is healthy... but why do eating disorders get such a bad reputation when Atkins is glorified. Neither seem very healthy to me.

Hopefully, I will learn the answers to these questions by hanging around here. Feel free to enlighten me, if you can. :)
There is no comparison between the atkins diet and starving yourself because of mental control issues. The atkins diet is well balanced and health-promoting when followed properly. Anorexia is not a way of eating like the atkins diet, it is a self-destructive behavior born of a problem, like cutting, drug abuse, or committing suicide. People praise atkins and condemn anorexia because of this.

The reason normal people can go on diets and not turn it into anorexia is because the normal dieter just wants to lose weight and be healthier. The anorexic, on the other hand, actually has a need to fill completely unrelated to weight or health - a need for purification from self control that they accomplish via restricting/controlling food intake.

For an anorexic dieting is a lot like drug use. The anorexic is only after a feeling of control order and structure in their lives which they find in "mastering their body" by starving themselves. Despite what they may or may not believe, this is always the true motivation for an anorexic... for it not to be means anorexia is not present (and they are merely following a really unbalanced diet instead ;) ). Weight and body image concerns may or may not even be present as an issue if one is anorexic. The difference between anorexics and dieters is that the anorexic wants to experience starvation, limited food choices, and the feeling of "not giving in" to hunger. A dieter, on the other hand, tries to minimize these unpleasant side effects, because their ultimate objective is better looks and/or health. An anorexic will often continue anorexia in spite of failing health and deteriorating looks.

Basically, the means and ends of each are reversed. For an anorexic, they are after something to give them control, pureness, and structure... the control of dieting itself is the ends, the whole point of anorexia. The means - the side effects - are weight loss, and because of this an anorexic may or may not try to hide or limit their weight loss from showing.
For a dieter, the real objective is weight loss. The diet is the means to achieve this, but a true dieter if given the choice between dieting and not and having the same results will always choose not to diet.

In short an anorexic loses weight so they can diet, whereas a dieter diets so they can lose weight. This is why dieters don't get "addicted" to dieting, because for a dieter the plan itself is considered "a necessary evil". For an anorexic, the diet itself is the benefit of losing weight (whether they consciously understand it or not), so they always take it further. If an anorexic could lose weight without dieting, losing weight would no longer mean anything and would not be desired.

seluratep
Mon, May-10-04, 19:37
My goodness! You guys certainly have been writing a lot.

I honestly am sorry if I stirred up any bad feelings... that really wasnt my intention. As for why its taken me a while to reply, I go to school and have a job. lol Its not like I stay on the internet all day. And when I came back here, I couldnt find it, because I guess it had been moved. I had to post a reply in the "what did you eat thread" just to have a link to here... sorry if we're not supposed to do that. I wasnt quite sure where this had gone to.

I love my screenname. :) I've had it for about 3 years now; I use it in my email and all other things. It was instinct to use it here, no harm intended. I thought I was up-front about being an animal activist and all... and how in the world would I make any of you feel guilty? I dont think you're doing anything wrong; I was just asking.

You're right, my perception is skewed. Thats why I am trying to understand this.

I think that "ItsTheWooo" explained it best, and I thank you. I guess for "normal" dieters (if there is such a thing) they want health and normal weight loss, while ED'd people are looking for extreme results. I guess Ive just seen similarities between the two... and wondered what that was about.

I really am sorry if I offended anyone. Thanks for those of you who offered kind responses. :)

seluratep
Mon, May-10-04, 19:52
if you are still alive at 80 pounds, what do you think your life will be like? do you think you will be with a boyfriend or husband? (if you are, i doubt it will be the kind you would want!!) do you think you will have children? (how ...without your period?) do you think you will be smiling? and laughing and enjoying life? (hooked up to a glucose feeding tube??) do you think people will look at you like you are thin and pretty and healthy? (with your hair falling out and a sunken hollowed vacuous face? they will look at you like you are sick and stare and wonder and for a second, maybe feel sorry for you). what about all the pain you will put the people who love you through? wouldn't you rather spend the next few years getting a healthy life that brings you good things?

Wow... lots of questions.

First of all, I dont ever plan on having a boyfriend or having children. Im in a very committed, loving relationship with a woman that Ive been with for over a year now. We're going to college together and have planned a life together.

I am 95 lbs now and still have my period. I usually lose my period based on my eating patterns, not my weight. Right now I am maintaining my weight fairly well and feel rather healthy. I have gotten down to a weight of 74 lbs and Im still alive. I've never been put on a feeding tube, although I have been hospitalized.

Just so you know, not everything you hear about anorexia applies to everyone. I am not anorexic to be beautiful... just thin. I have never asked for validation from others; never wanted their approval. I am in recovery now in the sense that I am greatly improving my eating patterns. However, I do not think that there is a cure for my disease. So, I am going to have to learn to live with it.

My main connection with the low-carb lifestyle is just that- its a lifestyle. You learn to adjust to the restriction youve placed on your diet, you learn a new way to live. There are disputes about how healthy it is, but Im sure that all of you feel it is whats best for your health. Thats why you're doing it! You believe your life, your health will be better if you change this about yourself.

Thats how I feel, I guess. Maybe you disagree. Im sure many people disagree with you. All Im asking is- do you see any similarities between the two of us? Because I do.

seluratep
Mon, May-10-04, 20:06
the fact that "seluratep" hasnt responded also is telling.

dear "seluratep":

if you would like to stop your anorexic behavior i sincerely suggest eating nothing but MEAT.

Again, sorry for not responding immediately. But, you probably remember how chaotic senior year of high school was. Ive been pretty busy. I usually can only get online at night.

I believe I have full control over whether I stop my "anorexic behavior" although I admit to not having control over my ED itself. I choose what I do, what goes in my mouth and what does not. I dont need any help with that.

But your response is curious. You claim it is sincere, so I wont question that. May I ask how that would help? I cant imagine eating only meat (and no fruits veggies or anything else) could be healthy. What about calcium? Fiber? I know many people believe in the great benifits eating meat has, and I dont argue with that- I know that some meat is incredibly healthy! Protein, iron, all that good stuff. But it still needs to be part of a balanced diet.

However, even if eating meat would cure all of my problems, I would never be able to eat it. Im not going to pull that "morally superior" crap, because I dont believe meat eaters are any less moral than I am. Its just not for me.

potatofree
Mon, May-10-04, 20:45
If you're seriously interested in opinions, I'll offer mine.

Low-carbs diets like Atkins CAN be carried to the extreme IF the person following them tends to that behavior already. I've seen MANY posts where a person is just horrified with themselves and afraid or nearly in tears because they ate something containing sugar. I've seen many posts where people track their carbs to the .01 and are scared to ever eat more than 20 grams... it doesn't matter if they're 95 lbs or 495 lbs, this kind of behavior, IMHO, is extreme... but has nothing to do with the plan they chose. Atkins, as written, doesn't call for that kind of meticulous recordkeeping or obsession, rather should foster the freedom from carb-driven cravings and free a person to learn what their bodies actually NEED.

I used to have to sit next to a woman with an encyclopedic knowledge of the fat content of any given food. Susan Powter was her hero and fat was the enemy. Same concept, different "enemy".

Admittedly, during the early stages of Atkins, I found myself as close as I ever wanted to be to an eating disorder. I lived and breathed carb counts, and was SO proud of myself for being "good" and not eating off-plan, EVER. I literally didn't have a slice of bread for over a year. It was a badge of honor!

Since Dr Phil-ing myself, I realize that I don't have to be afraid of food, fight food, or define my worth by what I allow myself to eat.

<end of incoherent ramble> :D

kay3osu
Mon, May-10-04, 20:54
That is funny...you know i actually thought of that when i sent it. that you might be with a woman. regardless, at 80 pounds, you would not be able to give her very much of you as there would not be much left. (physical or emotional) Don't forget that you most likely had years that you were healthy when you were younger. your body was living off of that when you were 74 pounds but you cannot subject your body to that kind of abuse forever and expect it to cooperate as it should. Eventually it will shut down. it's just not sustainable once you are so depleted. did you get your period at 74 pounds??? it sounds like you feel good. (how do you get your protein?). my concern was not as much the 95 pounds although i do think that's too low. (105 would be better)....it was more the desire to be 80. there are lots of reasons that people do this diet. i have severe hypoglycemia that caused my weight to plummet to 97 pounds (i'm normally a sz 2 at 115) and then gained a lot and was overweight for the first time in my life. i also have celiac so gluten foods are out. i have never gone less than 20 on cutting carbs because i just can't seem to do it. but some people do this for diabetes, insulin resistance, energy, to look younger, cholesterol........the benefits are numerous. and there are all kinds of different ways to do this. some healthier than others. just be careful and especially with your cholesterol, etc......good luck next year at school .......

bcbeauty
Mon, May-10-04, 20:59
I hope for the sake of your health you get control of this ed. I can't imagine anything so extreme. But I can't see anything similar between us either. I would never be cruel to my body.

seluratep
Mon, May-10-04, 21:15
potatofree- I agree with what you said. I believe that often an eating disorder begins with any obsession over food or weight. It was my observation that many people who follow lc lifestyles already have this obsessive personality trait. Im not saying all do- just as not all people who restrict their calories will develop anorexia. But is a person who feels defeat over eating a piece of bread any better than a person with an eating disorder?

kay3osu- I get my protein mainly through soy products, beans, and nuts. Vegans really do have a large amount of food they are able to eat. I eat boca burgers, which are only 70 calories for 13 grams of protein.

No, I didnt have my period at 74 lbs, and I did manage to maintain that weight for 6 months. I stayed between 74-80 for over a year, albeit with health problems. Im not claiming to be an extremely healthy person; just that Im interested in health and eating habits. Not everyone's body reacts to low weight as extremely as most, and I do not plan on staying 80 lbs forever. Its more a transition period. I have to be at a low weight when there are huge changes in my life, such as going to college. I'll probably gain back up to 95-97 lbs after a while.

Thank you for your concern. But this is the life that I live and the only life I know. I do try to take care of my health to the best of my ability, but unfortunately, complete recovery is out of reach.

bcbeauty and kpow- I agree completely. I dont know why you have become so defensive, but I am sorry that I offended you. I did not come here to act condescending or preach. Im here simply to interact and learn.

seluratep
Mon, May-10-04, 23:19
I hope for the sake of your health you get control of this ed. I can't imagine anything so extreme. But I can't see anything similar between us either. I would never be cruel to my body.

Hm.. your post changed.

Maybe you're right and we're nothing alike. *shrug* Who am I to say we are? It was just a thought I wanted to throw out there.

Its rather amusing; I visit eating disorder websites as well, and they have "flamelands" quite similar to this War Zone, where people come and talk about how wasteful bulimia is or how vulgar anorexia is. Then the whole forum of eating disordered people fights back, claiming its their right to do what they want to their body and talks about how calorie reduction can help prevent heart problems, blah blah blah.

Those websites insult Atkins regularly; Atkins is the anti-christ of EDs, which I believe is what spurred this curiousity. I come here, and it seems that its the same.. just the other way around.

Really, both throw facts around in this mad attempt to protect what is sacred to them- low carbs, restriction, purging, binging... everyone has their thing and everyone is willing to fight to protect it. There was a time when I researched how eating under starvation level could be beneficial. We cling to what makes us feel good about ourselves and we dont want anyone to show us the tarnished side of the coin.

But anyone open enough to see the truth will probably admit what I found to be the truth- moderation has and always will be the most healthy. No need for huge changes, no eating disorder, no diet, no rigid exercise program can be better than the health you live when you eat moderately and healthfully while exercising at a regular, healthy amount.

Unfortunately, we're both past that point, eh? Even if you wont admit it. So, regular diet and exercise didnt work for you, hm? It didnt for me either. Well, it worked just as its supposed to, just as it would for anyone. But it wasnt enough. You turned to Atkins. I choose a life malnutrition. You choose ketosis. *shrug*

tofi
Tue, May-11-04, 06:27
Those websites insult Atkins regularly; Atkins is the anti-christ of EDs, which I believe is what spurred this curiousity. I come here, and it seems that its the same.. just the other way around........But anyone open enough to see the truth will probably admit what I found to be the truth- moderation has and always will be the most healthy. No need for huge changes, no eating disorder, no diet, no rigid exercise program can be better than the health you live when you eat moderately and healthfully while exercising at a regular, healthy amount.........Unfortunately, we're both past that point, eh? Even if you wont admit it. So, regular diet and exercise didnt work for you, hm? It didnt for me either. Well, it worked just as its supposed to, just as it would for anyone. But it wasnt enough. You turned to Atkins. I choose a life malnutrition. You choose ketosis. *shrug*


A person, whose perceptions are so warped & unrealistic that they have an eating disorder, will see everything through that disorder. They are not open to reason, logic or science. So this person sees people taking steps to improve their health and weight as "just the same" as someone starving themselves.

The normal moderate North American diet and exercise got us carb sensitive people to our state of overweight. But we do not starve our bodies. We eat things that will help us heal our insulin sensitivity and return to health. EDs tend towards ever more stringent deprivation while low carbing tends towards the very "moderation" that the poster advocates, with the proviso that we never go back to eating so much starch and sugar as is "normal".

Breecita
Tue, May-11-04, 07:05
Those websites insult Atkins regularly; Atkins is the anti-christ of EDs, which I believe is what spurred this curiousity. I come here, and it seems that its the same.. just the other way around.


Well, personally I don't think you could go to any diet site and find people touting the virtues of eating disorders. They are called disorders because they are an illness.

I have an illness, too. I'm a sugar addict. It's rather like alcoholism. Alcoholics don't get to drink "in moderation" because they can't. I have never seen a drug rehab clinic where they tout the use of heroin "in moderation".

When something is bad for you, you should stop.

Eating sugar is killing me, so I stopped.

Hellistile
Tue, May-11-04, 09:15
People on Atkins or other low carb diets do so because they value their health and their lives not because of any glorified delusions as you seem to attribute to them. They no longer want to be sick and overweight. They are not doing it because of any obsession as you mentioned but because they want to be healed. Comparing Atkins to your eating disorders is completely unsubstantiated. Your eating problems stand in the way of your good health whereas eating low-carb benefits our good health. Therein lies the difference. Btw, there are low-carb plans where nothing need be counted but good food.

Seto Kaiba
Tue, May-11-04, 09:15
However, I do not think that there is a cure for my disease. So, I am going to have to learn to live with it.


Wow....that line is saddening. :(

Recovery is a life long processes. True, there is no magic pill that will make things all better, just coming to the realization that there is life outside of disordered thinking is the first step to getting better, rather than just settling into "this is how it will always be" mindset.

I wish you luck.

Hellistile
Tue, May-11-04, 09:37
oh and btw the title of your thread "Trying to Understand" is nothing but a ruse. You are trying to understand nothing. Just trying to stir up a hornet's nest with your smugness and youth which will all too soon fade away. Too bad you wasted it. Saying that you will have to live with your problem admits defeat. Don't give up and keep investigating. Get rid of preconceived notions. If one thing doesn't work, try another, and another, and another. Make wellness your top priority no matter what Atkins, PETA, vegans, meat-lovers proclaim. Try them all. See which one works. Only you can make yourself better and take responsibility for it. Those of us on this board, most of us, have done just that, tried almost everything to get better, to heal, to feel good. Low-carbing has done that for us. Now it's your turn to find what works for you. Putting us down isn't going to help you.

seluratep
Tue, May-11-04, 10:31
oh and btw the title of your thread "Trying to Understand" is nothing but a ruse. You are trying to understand nothing. Just trying to stir up a hornet's nest with your smugness and youth which will all too soon fade away. Too bad you wasted it. Saying that you will have to live with your problem admits defeat. Don't give up and keep investigating. Get rid of preconceived notions. If one thing doesn't work, try another, and another, and another. Make wellness your top priority no matter what Atkins, PETA, vegans, meat-lovers proclaim. Try them all. See which one works. Only you can make yourself better and take responsibility for it. Those of us on this board, most of us, have done just that, tried almost everything to get better, to heal, to feel good. Low-carbing has done that for us. Now it's your turn to find what works for you. Putting us down isn't going to help you.

I was never trying to put anyone down. In what way have I? I am sorry if I appear "smug" or if this appear as an attempt to stir things up. Im just giving you my observations; my personal opinions and asking you if you see any truth in them.

So, you personally dont. I wouldnt put you down because of it. Im not trying to insult anyone here.

And how am I stirring something up with my youth? lol I cant exactly make myself older... Im sorry if it offends you that Im young. Im sorry you feel that Ive wasted it. I happen to disagree. I live a very full life, one that I am happy with. I am in love, I do well in school, I have plans to go on to college, I volunteer, have pets, enjoy watching snow fall and sappy romance movies.

My eating disorder is not my life just because it is part of it. Would you say someone who smokes has wasted their life, just because they are not the epitome of health.

Accepting that it will always be a problem is not admitting defeat. It is what allows me to live my life. I have been through recovery programs and I know what it takes- I am not able to do that at this point, and I dont think I ever will be. I know other anorexics in denial about this, and they go through recovery after recovery only to relapse every time and have to start over.

I want more to my life than that. I want a way to live with this disease, because I honestly think that for some, it is a chronic illness. I have found my medium; it lies in allowing myself short periods of restriction followed by times when I am more comfortable with eating. I go with what I am comfortable with, and pfft if that doesnt fall in line with society's standards of health.

I did not come here to preach to you; Im sorry you feel like I am just trying to stir up trouble. I understand my opinions are objectionable, but that doesnt make them less real and worthy of discussion.

I think those who find such great offense to my posts are simply afraid to see the truth in my comparison. I have been nothing but polite here. Its not like Im here cussing up a storm or insulting Atkins... :p I merely want to share my views and hear yours.

seluratep
Tue, May-11-04, 10:47
Well, personally I don't think you could go to any diet site and find people touting the virtues of eating disorders. They are called disorders because they are an illness.

I have an illness, too. I'm a sugar addict. It's rather like alcoholism. Alcoholics don't get to drink "in moderation" because they can't. I have never seen a drug rehab clinic where they tout the use of heroin "in moderation".

When something is bad for you, you should stop.

Eating sugar is killing me, so I stopped.

Youd be surprised about that first part, actually. I mean, I seriously doubt you could go to any diet site and find them saying "Yeah, man! Anorexia is the way to go! Woot!" but they might as well, with their suggestions. Ive been to many diet sites where they offer meals plans as low as 500 calories a day!! Anything under 800 calories is considered "starvation level" and anything under 1200 is considered unhealthy. Then there are those ridiculous grapefruit or cabbage diets, which offer no nutritional value.

Ok, Im ranting. Sorry. I have a problem with diet sites that flaunt anorexic eating levels. Im glad this isnt one of them.

Im truly sorry for your illness. Any food addiction is horrible to go through and I wouldnt wish it on anyone.

However, I dont consider your comparison applicable on alll levels of eating. Drug/ food addictions are comparible to some extent, but in the end, you do need to find a healthy moderation with food, while abstaining is whats best with drugs. You cannot tell the recovering bulimic to abstain from food, just because she is addicted. A balance must be found. I stand by my previous statement about moderation. You need food to live; you do not need alcohol.

I understand your position with sugar, because you do not need sugar specifically to live. But I still think that you would find your optimum health when you found moderation of food.

ItsTheWooo
Tue, May-11-04, 11:11
Hm.. your post changed.

Maybe you're right and we're nothing alike. *shrug* Who am I to say we are? It was just a thought I wanted to throw out there.

Its rather amusing; I visit eating disorder websites as well, and they have "flamelands" quite similar to this War Zone, where people come and talk about how wasteful bulimia is or how vulgar anorexia is. Then the whole forum of eating disordered people fights back, claiming its their right to do what they want to their body and talks about how calorie reduction can help prevent heart problems, blah blah blah.

Those websites insult Atkins regularly; Atkins is the anti-christ of EDs, which I believe is what spurred this curiousity. I come here, and it seems that its the same.. just the other way around.

Just out of curiosity, what problem do ED people have with the atkins plan?

Is it because it is the anti-diet way to lose weight, and for ED people the whole point of losing weight is to do a restrictive diet?
Is it because it is looked on as restrictive, yet accepted, and the ED people can't understand why ED isn't accepted but Atkins is?

Hmm just wondering...

Really, both throw facts around in this mad attempt to protect what is sacred to them- low carbs, restriction, purging, binging... everyone has their thing and everyone is willing to fight to protect it. There was a time when I researched how eating under starvation level could be beneficial. We cling to what makes us feel good about ourselves and we dont want anyone to show us the tarnished side of the coin.

But anyone open enough to see the truth will probably admit what I found to be the truth- moderation has and always will be the most healthy. No need for huge changes, no eating disorder, no diet, no rigid exercise program can be better than the health you live when you eat moderately and healthfully while exercising at a regular, healthy amount.

Unfortunately, we're both past that point, eh? Even if you wont admit it. So, regular diet and exercise didnt work for you, hm? It didnt for me either. Well, it worked just as its supposed to, just as it would for anyone. But it wasnt enough. You turned to Atkins. I choose a life malnutrition. You choose ketosis. *shrug*
It really isn't the same thing.

For many of us who go on atkins, there is no alternative. We have damaged sugar metabolisms, much like a type 2 diabetic. The only option we have is to in some what restrict carbohydrate. Not restricting carbohydrate - even if 100% of our carbs came from "healthy" sources - means hyperinsulinemia & unstable energy levels.

Before atkins I had tons of facial hair & body hair, thinning male-pattern baldness, a complete absence of periods, all over my body was stained with yellow-brown patches of AN, and I had acne all over my face and chest. On top of that, I was prone to hypoglycemia, unstable energy balance, and was gaining weight obscenely fast.

Why did I have these problems? I was experiencing hyperandrogenization caused by hyperinsulinemia...or as it's sometimes called, "PCOS". Within a week of starting atkins my skin cleared up. The hair on my body and face began to get lighter. I had a period. This all happened relatively quickly, so you can't merely attribute it to body fat loss. It was the insulin. By reducing dietary glycemic load I reduced need for insulin. The weight just fell off once I stopped eating so many carbs. The reason I weighed so much was because of carbs & insulin, so when I was able to lower them my body began to rapidly cannibalize its fat.

So like I said, controlling carbs neednt always be a crash diet where one struggles to stay in "ketosis". Ketosis isn't even that important, truth be told. I allow myself 50 net carbs daily and on this amount I have no trouble eating 3 servings of fruit, 5 servings of veggies. Here is my menu for yesterday:

Breakfast:
Half a slice controlled-carb NY cheesecake w/ three nut crust, tablespoon whipped heavy cream & blackberry jam (controlled carb), half of a cup of blackberries, half an ounce of walnuts.
Quarter cup controlled carb cereal with a splash of controlled carb milk.
Cup of green tea sweetened with splenda.

Lunch:
The leftovers from breakfast + a 3 ounce salmon fillet, a tablespoon of dill seasoned dressing for the fish, 2 cups of romaine lettuce, radishes, cucumber, onion, and 1.5 tbsp carb options thousand island dressing, 1/3 a cup asparagus sauteed in evoo w/ onions & garlic & lemon

Dinner:
3.5 ounces of chicken, one and a half cups of broccoli sauteed in bacon oil (emril :D) & garlic & onions.

Dessert:
Dannon carb controlled yogurt w/ a third cup raspberries, quarter ounce crushed walnuts, and a quarter cup crushed LC cereal.

Snacks eaten:
Half of a peach
A strawberry dipped in peanut butter
A chicken wing w/ hot sauce
A controlled carb peanut butter cup
Half of a sweetened (sucralose) pickle.


Honestly does that sound so unbalanced? Such veggie & fruit consumption is typical on atkins. I ate 2 cups of salad, .33 cup asparagus, 1.5 cup broccoli, lots of misc veggies (radishes cucumber onions). I ate half a peach, .5 cup blackberries, .33 cup raspberries, a strawberry. I had about 3 servings of dairy. I think that is a pretty normal way to eat. Keep in mind the nutrition in broccoli asparagus and salad is multiple times greater than the nutrition in starchy foods like potatoes and rice, too.

The low sugar veggies and fruits are where all the nutrition is. Rice and pasta are nothing but raw caloric energy. THe only difference between an atkins dieter and a regular dieter is that we replace the high calorie - low nutrition carbs with things like oils, fats, cheeses, and meats. We believe it is better to derive energy from fat than it is carbohydrate, because we all have insulin resistence. Insulin resistence syndrome, as I explained before, causes a whole host of undesirable health consiquences and can be alleviated by reducing dietary glycemic load.

I hope I have helped you understand what controlled carb is all about. It really has nothing in common with an eating disorder, which is a self-destructive behavior in response to a psychological issue. The atkins diet is a way of eating for people with a real, observable, physical problem: insulin resistence.

Thanks.

seluratep
Tue, May-11-04, 11:30
ItsTheWoo- Thank you so much for your reply; that honestly made things much more clear. I did have some misunderstandings about Atkins and what it requires. I appreciate the insight.

Im glad you found what is healthiest for your health. It sounds like its doing wonders for you, and thats so awesome. :) By the way, you look absolutely beautiful!

I guess the people Ive come into contact with dont use Atkins appropriately, and its unfair for me to assume all people are like that. I guess Im just identifying with those people who do use Atkins as a type of crash diet, and unfortunately most people dont make the distinction between the healthy Atkins diet, and their own warped version of it.

I still think that many people with warped thinking about food are drawn to Atkins and use it in an unhealthy way. But Im incredibly happy that you're not like this and that you have found something that has increased your health. I suppose I was assuming all Atkin's people are like the ones I have encountered; and I honestly believe many of them were not mentally healthy when it came to food.

Now, to answer your question- why do ED boards dislike Atkins? How to explain this... (1) I think most people on these boards consider themselves experts on food and dietary needs, because they have made food their lifelong hobby. (2) A lot of people see Atkins as restrictive, unnecessary, and unhealthy. (3) This diet is literally shoved in our faces every time we go shopping, out to eat, anything.

Im not saying you should agree with all of these things, but generally, that is what is believed on those boards. And taken together, I guess you can see why it isnt liked.

gotbeer
Tue, May-11-04, 11:34
dear seluratep,

I think the anger you've seen generated here is in response to a variety of issues.

Much of the anger directed towards you is really directed at PETA. We are in a death struggle with PETA/PCRM (see http://www.salon.com/tech/feature/2003/12/08/peta_and_atkins/index.html) and unfortunately you've caught the brunt of that. There is damage here that will take decades to heal, at least.

In addition, despite the sincerity of your posts, your handle and your current goal weight of 80 undermine our perception of you. Many of us would love to be as thin as you despite your ed, but to want to kill yourself at 80 lbs is wretched for us.

I love the food I eat on this diet. I hope things work out well for you on yours.

seluratep
Tue, May-11-04, 11:48
dear seluratep,

I think the anger you've seen generated here is in response to a variety of issues.

Much of the anger directed towards you is really directed at PETA. We are in a death struggle with PETA/PCRM (see http://www.salon.com/tech/feature/2003/12/08/peta_and_atkins/index.html) and unfortunately you've caught the brunt of that. There is damage here that will take decades to heal, at least.

May I just clarify that I am not a member of PETA? I understand your anger at them, but I didnt come here as an activist, although I love animals dearly. I think I got people riled up because of my screen name, so I suppose people missed the irony of it being spelled backwards. I suppose I should have taken the time to think up another name... but I like this one. I find most of what PETA does to be backwards, although I am all for loving our animals.

I truly am sorry for the misunderstanding, and that you feel targeted by such an extreme organization. I am not a PETA supporter, and I suppose I should have made that clear from the beginning to avoid ruffling feathers.

In addition, despite the sincerity of your posts, your handle and your current goal weight of 80 undermine our perception of you. Many of us would love to be as thin as you despite your ed, but to want to kill yourself at 80 lbs is wretched for us.

I love the food I eat on this diet. I hope things work out well for you on yours.

Hm.. when I signed up here, they asked for me to put a current weight and goal weight- I didnt think to be dishonest. I can see why you would be resentful of me, and all I have to say is that I wish you could see me as my thoughts, actions, and words... not weight.

I hope everything works out for you as well. :) Thank you for the good wishes.

seluratep
Tue, May-11-04, 11:56
Now, to answer your question- why do ED boards dislike Atkins? How to explain this... (1) I think most people on these boards consider themselves experts on food and dietary needs, because they have made food their lifelong hobby. (2) A lot of people see Atkins as restrictive, unnecessary, and unhealthy. (3) This diet is literally shoved in our faces every time we go shopping, out to eat, anything.

Im not saying you should agree with all of these things, but generally, that is what is believed on those boards. And taken together, I guess you can see why it isnt liked.

OK, to expand on this, I just posed your question to an ED board, and these are the replies I have gotten so far.

"The fad is the biggest thing for me. It's like, EVERYBODY'S counting carbs. Restaurant menu's reflect it, beer reflects it, I see special carb-watchers foods everywhere I go. It's disgusting.

Plus, a lot of people don't bother to do it properly - they eat absolutely NO CARBS, and load up on tons of fatty meats and such. A sure-fire way to get yourself a heart attack, I'm sure."

This seems to be the main thing people are saying.. but there are other replies.

"I just saw an ad for a "carb-smart" multivitamin. The whole thing is an ok idea that got out of control, like the"fat-free" thing in the 80's and 90's that led to sugared-up foods and ended up helping nobody."

"It goes against the idea of, "everything in moderation." It forces the body to adhere to a diet that's not natural. And unless you keep up the low-carbing thing for the rest of your life, you gain the weight right back. Dieting in and of itself usually botches one's weight up, but in undertaking a dangerous fad like this, you can really harm your liver, kidneys, and pancreas.

Not to mention, hello: cholesterol!?!?! Despite evidence that atkins eventually raises levels of HDL (the good cholesterol), it also raises the bad stuff too.

And people don't do Atkins right (by eating lean meats and the like). They stuff their body full of bacon, and bunless cheeseburgers."

I hope that answers your questions.

gotbeer
Tue, May-11-04, 12:01
Indeed, weight is a severe emotional issue for many of us here.

Do you ~really~ want to weigh 80 lbs? In some of your other posts you admit to being underweight. Why not adopt a healthier goal weight? 99 lbs, perhaps?

Just as you are trying to understand our diets, I'd like to better grasp your ed.

seluratep
Tue, May-11-04, 12:14
Indeed, weight is a severe emotional issue for many of us here.

Do you ~really~ want to weigh 80 lbs? In some of your other posts you admit to being underweight. Why not adopt a healthier goal weight? 99 lbs, perhaps?

Just as you are trying to understand our diets, I'd like to better grasp your ed.

My lowest weight is 74 lbs. In the back of my head, I really would like to be 73 lbs... then 72, 71, and so on. I have convinced myself that this would not be a good idea, but 80 lbs is manageable for me... for a while.

Weight is an emotional issue with me, as well. Of course I know Im underweight, technically. I still dont feel it. Believe me when I say that you are lucky you can appreciate your weight loss... you see the pictures, see the results and feel a sense of pride. I see them and think "so what? you could still lose some more..." There's no end to an eating disorder.

However, I do not feel I am able to recover. So, I have chosen to live with it. I am 95 lbs now, which is a weight where I can still feel healthy and accomplish things. I am maintaining at the moment. I plan on going down to 80 when I start college, because I will need to in order to have a hold on my emotions. Once I am more at home there, I will most likely gain back up to 95 lbs and stay there for a while.

This is a way of life for me. I have learned to fit it into my life, and now enjoy myself much more than when I was attempting a fruitless recovery.

I hope that helps you to understand where Im coming from. I really am a rational, logical person... its just most people dont agree with how I see things.

Kristine
Tue, May-11-04, 12:15
>>"You cannot tell the recovering bulimic to abstain from food, just because she is addicted."

...but you can't tell her to have one 1/2 cup serving of Kraft Dinner, either, or 1 oz of M&Ms. Trigger foods are trigger foods and moderation rarely works. Having a small amount is way more difficult than having none at all. Many of us have tried moderation and it fails miserably because it addresses neither screwed-up metabolism nor the addiction factor.

There are many people here recovering from EDs, myself included. Obviously there's a lot of soul-searching and psychological healing that needs to occur, too, but avoiding refined carbs is an excellent way to heal the physical conditions that exacerbated the pathological emotional condition to begin with.

There aren't a lot of obsessive dieters here. Obsession tends to come out of fear of making a mistake more than pathological thinking patterns. Sure, you count carbs to begin with, but it's not rocket science to get your eating plan down pat within a few weeks or months. You learn how to listen to your body again.

I don't even know if I could try to explain to you what it's like to have food obsession pack up and go away. It's probably been your best friend/worst enemy for years. Imagine eating, enjoying your food, and not needing to worry about the scale because you know it's not really going to change much. Imagine what you could do with your brain and your time. To have depression lift. This is the change that low carb eating has brought to those of us who have previously struggled with messed up eating that was caused by, or at least worsened by, sugar and grains. I've done the "normal" diet of "moderate" carbohydrates, and I was stuck on the same old hamster wheel, struggling with hunger, bingeing, starving and weight cycling. LC is the only way for me.

I can see how outsiders, who incorrectly perceive low carbing as an all-you-can-eat bacon binge, consider it restrictive. I see it as finally having sanity and freedom.

gotbeer
Tue, May-11-04, 12:44
I plan on going down to 80 when I start college, because I will need to in order to have a hold on my emotions.

So, you believe losing the weight will help you deal with the stress of starting college? I'm just checking to make sure I'm understanding your motivations - most folks I know eat when stressed, rather than starve themselves. When I am really, really upset, I do stop eating, but I haven't been that upset in 23 years.

I really am a rational, logical person... its just most people dont agree with how I see things.

Hey, I'm an Atheist in a heavily Christian area - NOBODY agrees with me on how I see things, either.

I'm not sure that anyone is really rational - decisions are universally made for emotional reasons, not logical ones. We all make rationalized decisions, not rational decisions.

elimy
Tue, May-11-04, 12:46
Seluratep,

I've responded to your post in my journal, couldn't pm you, so you'll have to go there to read it....

Nancy LC
Tue, May-11-04, 12:50
I plan on going down to 80 when I start college, because I will need to in order to have a hold on my emotions.

I can't quite understand what weighing a certain amount has to do with emotional control. I'm sure it makes sense in your mind, you might even think its rational, but it sure doesn't sound rational to me.

If you get REALLY stressed does going to 75 pounds help even more? That's like deciding if I'm stressed out that removing my spleen will help my stress level. They really don't have a whole lot to do with one another.

I think Gotbeer is right. People confuse rationalizing with being rational. Just because you make a conscious decision to do something doesn't mean it was a good decision or even a rational one. I see my sister rationalizing her food behavior all the time, it makes me sad. I wish she'd just own up to the reality that she's just screwing up her diet rather than try to make excuses for it. You can't really make any progress with your own shortcoming until you admit to them and try to improve on them.

ItsTheWooo
Tue, May-11-04, 13:02
I think seluratep logically understands that what she feels she looks like and what she feels she needs to do about it doesn't make sense.

For anorexics, it's all about control. Having a hold over your body by keeping it at a low weight by restricting food is very empowering to them. This is why anorexics often relapse when life gets out of control and hectic... the only way they know how to deal with these problems is through the anorexic behavior. Saying "do you really need to deal with your emotions like that" won't have much of an effect. People think telling an anorexic they aren't fat and don't need to starve themselves will do anything. A lot of people don't understand the disease is fueled not by poor perspective, but by crudely developed emotional coping mechanisms. They project all their feelings onto their body, and then by mastering their body it feels like they are mastering their feelings. Feeling "fat" isn't a feeling. Feeling "fat" is what happens when your body represents the way you feel about some other unrelated issue.

If you are overwhelmed by stress and emotions and haven't learned any other coping strategy other than anorexia, being told not to do it means nothing. It's your only option as you see it. It's like telling an emotional over eater to just eat less. As anyone who's ever had an addiction can testify, once you've gotten used to dealing with things in a certain way it is almost impossible to relearn new coping strategies. Yes, ideally, an anorexic should learn how to deal with the problems and not simply starve themselves at all, but it is very, very hard to do.

On this board we have many emotional eaters - the polarity of emotional restricters (anorexia). How many of us with an emotional eating problem are ever truly rid of the behavior? Very very few. I know I'm not, on occasionally I still eat too much in response to emotions. The best we can really hope for is good control of our disease. Emotional binge eaters are considered successfully rehabilitated if they learn to minimize the frequency of binges. So it is with anorexia... I would say it is progress that seluratep has learned to limit restrictive behavior somewhat.

I think we have a hard time accepting a restrictive eating disorder as "valid" because it goes against what most people's instinctual reactions are with food. Most people tend to over nourish for emotional comfort, and this is very understandable because nourishment is comforting. Because we understand and identify with the psychology of BED, we more readily accept binge eating disorders as valid. Anorexia is a completely foreign emotional need for most, and therefore people have a harder time understanding it is just as emotionally valid and difficult to get control over as binge eating disorder.

gotbeer
Tue, May-11-04, 13:15
Well, we know that there is a euphoria associated with ketosis, whether that ketosis is created by starvation or Atkins. This euphoria can be a means of combating/controlling stress.

It that sense, perhaps Atkins could be used to treat anorexia - it would relieve the stressor without causing the bodily damage that results from anorexia.

Likewise, carbs are the ultimate downer. A stressed out person who turns to carbs for solace will pay a heavy price as the euphoria of ketosis dissipates.

gotbeer
Tue, May-11-04, 13:41
So, my recommendation for anorexics would be thus:

1. During times of high stress, eat an Induction-level Atkins diet to maintain a state of ketosis, slow down weight loss (compared to starvation), and avoid the heart muscle damage and other ill effects of starvation. The point: the euphoria of ketosis will be stress-relieving in the same way that starvation is, but Atkins is a protein-sparing diet, so your health will be better.

2. During times of low stress, add enough carbs back into the diet to halt weight-loss (or even, increase weight.) This will halt ketosis - and make you feel not so great - but you've indicated you can function and maintain during such periods. The more you gain, the longer you can maintain ketosis when the stress returns.

rpavich
Tue, May-11-04, 14:36
Hi all, I think the crux of everything that has been said here is: Atkins and Anorexia have nothing in common...one is a choice to stop eating unhealthly...the other is an eating disorder....


bob

tofi
Tue, May-11-04, 14:57
You might want to post this on the board where you asked for the comments.

"The fad is the biggest thing for me. It's like, EVERYBODY'S counting carbs. Restaurant menu's reflect it, beer reflects it, I see special carb-watchers foods everywhere I go. It's disgusting.
This low carbing "fad" and "craze" has been around since 1972. 32 years is not exactly a flash in the pan. It's just that studies are now proving it does work so people are getting with it.
.
.
Plus, a lot of people don't bother to do it properly - they eat absolutely NO CARBS, and load up on tons of fatty meats and such. A sure-fire way to get yourself a heart attack, I'm sure."
True that they do it wrong. False that eating only fatty meat will give you a heart attack. Eskimos/Innuit ate nothing but fatty meats for centuries and heart attack was unknown until carbs were introduced by "modern man".
.
.
"I just saw an ad for a "carb-smart" multivitamin. The whole thing is an ok idea that got out of control, like the"fat-free" thing in the 80's and 90's that led to sugared-up foods and ended up helping nobody."
Blame the same manufacturers who created products with high fructose corn sugar and trans fatty acids because they were cheaper to use, with no thought of the effects on people's health. The manufacturers are the ones who are 'hopping on the train' and very late too. It's greed, honey. Low carbing dates back to the 1800's.
.
.
"It goes against the idea of, "everything in moderation." It forces the body to adhere to a diet that's not natural.
Eating a "moderate diet" of natural foods is how most of us insulin resistant people gained the weight. In DANDR, Atkins said if you were 'out of balance', eating the normal diet would only keep sending you farther out of balance. To get back to normal insulin sensitivity, we have to eat an "unbalanced' diet that does not contain simple carbs. What's natural about a Cheese Doodle or Oreos or Kraft Dinner?
.
.
And unless you keep up the low-carbing thing for the rest of your life, you gain the weight right back.
If you go off low-calorie dieting, don't you gain all the weight back?
If you go off low fat dieting, don't you gain the weight back?
If you eat the wrong kind of foods, or the wrong number of calories, don't you gain the weight back?
That's like saying that drinking water makes you urinate. So you musn't do it. :lol:
.
.
Dieting in and of itself usually botches one's weight up, but in undertaking a dangerous fad like this, you can really harm your liver, kidneys, and pancreas.
ABSOLUTELY UNTRUE! Dr. Atkins publicly and repeatedly challenged the entire medical community for years to present EVEN ONE case where low carbing had damaged healthy liver or kidneys. NOT ONE case was ever presented because there have never been any. It was eating all the carbs ALONG with the fat that was causing the cells to resist the insulin action, causing the poor pancreas to have to put out ever-increasing amounts of insulin. And that leads to Type TWO diabetes. Fortunately, low carbing turns us away from that disease state and leads back to health. So even the pancreas are not harmed but helped by LCing.
.
.
Not to mention, hello: cholesterol!?!?! Despite evidence that atkins eventually raises levels of HDL (the good cholesterol), it also raises the bad stuff too.
Wrong again. My own results after years of LCing have shown that the LDL goes down. And now science is admitting that not all LDL is bad. There are at least 2 kinds: low and very low density molecules. LCing lowers the bad one of those and keeps the good one. So even a higher LDL could reflect a much healthier condition.
.
.
And people don't do Atkins right (by eating lean meats and the like). They stuff their body full of bacon, and bunless cheeseburgers."
Don't some people stuff themselves with "low fat" products and can't understand why they GAIN? That's not Atkins' fault or any LC program's fault.Some people are just stupid. Blame the media for this erroneous portrayal of what low carbing is. Besides which, a person could very well lose weight eating bacon, and bunless cheeseburgers. :lol:

tofi
Tue, May-11-04, 14:59
Your basic premise is wrong: there ARE other ways to manage the emotions and stresses in your life. How sad it is that just because you can't see them right in front of you, you think they don't exist.

Do you have the courage to look for outside help?

mrfreddy
Tue, May-11-04, 15:37
Besides which, a person could very well lose weight eating bacon, and bunless cheeseburgers. :lol:



[/B]


I did, I lost about 30 pounds and have kept it off, eating bacon almost every day and bunless cheeseburgers fairly often, along with steaks, chops, and sometimes even fish and chicken...

Lisa N
Tue, May-11-04, 16:00
This is a way of life for me. I have learned to fit it into my life, and now enjoy myself much more than when I was attempting a fruitless recovery.

Seluratep...since you have stated that you are a rational and logical person, I hope you realize that the above statement is more "victim speak" than anything else. It's no different than an addict saying, "recovery rates from addiction are so poor, I'm better off not attempting to recover and just stay an addict. After all, I'm comfortable with it and I need it to cope."
Because they fear failure or because the devil they know and are comfortable with is less frightening than having to learn new coping skills without their crutch (drugs, alcohol, disordered behavior), they justify not attempting recovery in their own minds with a variety of excuses. Yes, attempting to overcome disordered behavior is uncomfortable and even frightening but the alternative, at least for me, would be even more frightening. The bottom line is that if you don't believe that you can recover, then you won't recover and I find that very sad coming from such a young person.
I have to ask, what is your purpose for going to college and developing relationships? Most people do those things with thoughts towards the future. I don't have to tell you, I'm sure, that your prospects for a long and healthy life are not good if you continue on the path you are on. Have you thought about what your future holds for you? You admit that you have already been hospitalized for your ED. How will your schooling, your career and your relationships fare when those hosptilizations recur over and over?
I'll very much echo what Tofi has said: Do you have the courage to look for outside help?

gotbeer
Tue, May-11-04, 16:22
Hi all, I think the crux of everything that has been said here is: Atkins and Anorexia have nothing in common...one is a choice to stop eating unhealthly...the other is an eating disorder....


Both Atkins and Anorexia put their practitioners into a state of ketosis that is mood-altering. That is what they have in common, and that is why I think an Atkins Diet could be used to treat Anorexia in a way that is superior to other treatments.

huggs2ewe
Tue, May-11-04, 16:38
WOW seluratep you have stired up a hornets nest haven't you. I think that you are a very articulate young lady who like some said earlier came with a name that stirred trouble and an ED that you appear to want to "justify" to a certain point. You are a smart young lady and I trully hope that you can find the right kind of help to get you to the end of your journey. There is help out there, I work in mental health and know that it is a long road but there is "recovery". I hope you rethink your college plan to loose wt., if you want to make it through you will need to be healthy and in control of your ED.

All the best and hopefully you won't take the comments too hard and it would have been much different if your member name had been "FRED".

Good luck.

seluratep
Tue, May-11-04, 19:33
tofi and Lisa N-

I understand that there are many ways to cope; I use them daily, much like everyone else. I write, play guitar, do schoolwork, exercise, watch funny movies, listen to music, etc. I have been in therapy for years and have been hospitalized twice.

I suppose it sounded like I was saying it had been for physical health reasons. That wasnt the case... I was hospitalized for my eating disorder and put into treatment programs. Twice. Once for 2 months, and once for 5 months.

I am not trying to "play victim" here, honestly, Im not. Its just that Ive already lost 7 months of my life trying to recover. I dont want to lose more when I just dont think Im able to do it. I thought I could before, I put my all into it. But when it comes down to it, I just dont have it in me to recover.

Ok, I guess you can say I dont know that for sure. But how long would it take? Years, maybe, and then what? One slip up could cause another relapse. *sigh* I want more. Maybe Id live longer if I went about things this way, but what kind of life would I lead?

Maybe sometime in the future I'll know for certain, and maybe then I'll be able to recover. Who knows, right? It could happen. But as for right now, well, thats just not where Im at. So, I have found a way to live with this disease. I figure thats at least improvement. And its all I can handle for the moment.

I am still in therapy and probably will be for a while; I have PTSD, so thats a lot to deal with. And quite frankly, I think its more important to focus on that than anything else. Maybe if I do improve with this, then I will have a chance at recovering from my ED. But as I said before, thats not the point Im at right now.

seluratep
Tue, May-11-04, 19:38
All the best and hopefully you won't take the comments too hard and it would have been much different if your member name had been "FRED".


If only I had known this at the time... it was an honest mistake.

I have used this sn for years now, because it was an inside joke between my friends. They wrote "peta rules" on one of my binders, because Im an animals activist and I just laughed and said, "No way.. thats just backwards." She was confused and thought I meant it literally. :D So, then I did write it out backwards and ended up using it for my sn. Since then, Ive always used it. I dont like change.

Im not a member of PETA, I dont support PETA, and Im not here to cause trouble. :) Hope that officially clears it up.

seluratep
Tue, May-11-04, 19:49
gotbeer- That really is an interesting suggestion. I wonder if any recovering anorexics have tried that for themselves.. Im pretty sure that health care professionals wouldnt suggest that, because they seem very against any type of dietary restriction when recovering from an ED. When I was inpatient, they didnt even support the vegan diet and would barely allow vegetarianism, because they were trying to break away from the good food/ bad food mentality.

But it still is a thought provoking suggestion. And one I just may try, actually. I know most people are low carbing to lose weight, but if it is for health, then there must be ways to maintain while low carbing. If it has the same stress relieving effect that EDs offer, maybe it would be possible to use atkins to maintain my weight while Im at college.

suzanneM
Tue, May-11-04, 19:51
Just now trying to get back ON plan and excited about it. I can honestly say that when I am eating according to this plan, I eat better than ever. I eat whole, healthy foods - no sugar, no processed crap. Natural stuff (and that means NO frankenfoods - I think Dr. Atkins would roll in his grave). And the thing is, I feel better! Tons of veggies (more than I'd eat otherwise), stuff that tastes good, and no late night sugar crashes - no shoving junk in my body. You can share that with the boards that don't understand this way of eating.

That said, I can easily understand how someone that has a obsessive compulsion to severely limit what they put in their body to see or recognize a similarity in what it's like for us, who study labels and carefully avoid certain things. For most of us, though, it's not a disorder or a need to be in control of something (as in, being thin or eating as little as possible), but an attempt to get and keep ourselves at the healthiest state we can. And look good, too. :D

I think this glimpse into your ED is fascinating & thank you for sharing it. You seem to have a grasp on what's going on with you and are at least trying to figure out a way to keep going. Perhaps you should look at this as a step towards a healthier you - perhaps there is a next step, and that's something to work towards as you begin to face the pressures of college.

I know that I can't tell you to eat more anymore than you can tell me to stop eating junk - I know I shouldn't, but there it is. I'm wishing you good luck on your path towards getting healthy.

gotbeer
Wed, May-12-04, 13:16
gotbeer- That really is an interesting suggestion. I wonder if any recovering anorexics have tried that for themselves.. Im pretty sure that health care professionals wouldnt suggest that, because they seem very against any type of dietary restriction when recovering from an ED. When I was inpatient, they didnt even support the vegan diet and would barely allow vegetarianism, because they were trying to break away from the good food/ bad food mentality.

But it still is a thought provoking suggestion. And one I just may try, actually. I know most people are low carbing to lose weight, but if it is for health, then there must be ways to maintain while low carbing. If it has the same stress relieving effect that EDs offer, maybe it would be possible to use atkins to maintain my weight while Im at college.

We have a vegetarian forum here that you may find helpful if you want to give it a try - here's a link to it: http://forum.lowcarber.org/forumdisplay.php?f=109.

Many doctors dislike Atkins but many others are coming around.

If this works - and the theory appears sound to me - we'll definitely need to write an article or even a book about it.

plum
Thu, May-13-04, 02:41
Hi seluratep, and everyone.. :wave:

good debate - thank you.

I would like to add my opinions :)

I think the ketosis euphoria and the euphoria felt by the semi - fasting anorexic may be one and the same.

I also believe that anorexia and the disorders of insulin metabolism may well turn out in the end to be two sides of the same coin.

seluratep, I would like to recommend to you a book written in 1958 by a British Psychiatrist, Dr Richard Mackarness. Its called "Eat Fat and Grow Slim "
In fact most of this book is available on the internet, if you just do a search on Richard Mackarness or the book title !!!!

heres a little excerpt from the chapter entitled "Psychiatric aspects of Obesity and Food Addiction"...remember, this is from 1958....

"Follow up studies in anorexia nervosa are not numerous, but they show a high relapse rate, varying from 20 % to 65% three to ten years after the first admission. So the standard treatment as outlined briefly above, cannot be called good.
Are doctors looking at the illness from the wrong angle ? Should we not stop assuming that the patient's body and mind are wrong and ask whether the food they are being given is wrong for their real needs ? This could make anorexia nervosa a manifestation of of intolerance or hypersensitivity to too concentrated a diet of refined carbohydrate .... exactly the view I take of the causation of obesity "

I hope you find Dr Mackarness as interesting as I do !! Good luck in your search.

Redworm
Thu, May-13-04, 05:34
Hi...

I seem to have reached this thread a little late but will add my sixpence'worth anyway!

Between the ages of 14 and 16 (I'm now 19 going on 20) I was a Bulimic/ Anorexic who planned half my life around food. It began in 1998 when, after 8 years of bullying about my weight and general appearance, something snapped and I just started throwing up after meals. I don't know why I chose this- one day I just started, and it became the regular thing for the next two years. Another contributing factor was that I started puberty relatively young- didn't have my first period until I was 14- and absolutely hated it. When 'that time of the month' came around I would put on upto a quarter of a stone and it wouldn't go for almost two weeks. I wanted to be slim and popular, not the fat geek in the corner. So, in my messed up brain, I decided that the only way of achieving this was through an Eating Disorder. I would get up, drink a pint of milk and whatever I could find that was easy to throw up and that would be my breakfast gone. I would eat as much soup, dairy and liquid as possible as that was the easiest thing to get rid of. When I couldn't throw up because it was inconvenient, I would limit myself to 50 calories a day. If I went over this I would go and be sick anyway. It got to the point in 2000 when I was throwing up water- I had grown accustomed to feeling empty all the time and even the pressure of that on my stomach was too much to bear. In the end I blurted it all out to my mam before a school play I was in, and she took me to the doctor. I was prescribed Prozac which stopped the throwing up as it burned, and was put on a strict diet plan. I did keep relapsing, and as my lowest weight (8stone) is still 'healthy' for my height (5'8") no-one noticed, and as far as my doc was concerned she had another satified customer. It took my own sheer strength of will to pull me out of the rut I was in, and the help from my best friend (accompanying me to the toilet etc) that helped me eventually recover year later. I came out of it relatively unscathed compared to some; I have a clean bill of health, and my stomach functioning returned to normal last year. I was also able to help one of my old friends recover from anorexia- nothing beats home what you are doing to yourself better than when your friend is vanishing before your eyes. I managed to get 13 GCSEs, 4 A-Levels, and and soon to start my final year in my University degree after which I will train to become a teacher.

I am now on Atkins as after my recovery I have for the last year and a half had a stubborn 75lb to get rid of, which is making me obese. However, this time I want to lose it honestly, and with as little obsession as possible. I also want to keep eating healthily for the rest of my life; I've only been here 19 3/4 years- I want the rest of my life to be long, and healthy.

My advice to Seluratep is this. I know exactly how you feel about reducing your weight to overcome stressful situations- i did it myself. When I sat my GCSEs I was 112lb (actually, your ideal weight!) . However, denying that what you are doing is problematic is itself the biggest problem. After I stopped being bulimic, sure, I felt low and that I'd betrayed myself for some weird reason. But, if you step back, you have to FORGET emotional ties and acknowledge the physical effects of your actions- they will, eventually, kill you. I realised that early, I stopped. Please at least try :(

Breecita
Thu, May-13-04, 07:23
Youd be surprised about that first part, actually. I mean, I seriously doubt you could go to any diet site and find them saying "Yeah, man! Anorexia is the way to go! Woot!" but they might as well, with their suggestions. Ive been to many diet sites where they offer meals plans as low as 500 calories a day!! Anything under 800 calories is considered "starvation level" and anything under 1200 is considered unhealthy. Then there are those ridiculous grapefruit or cabbage diets, which offer no nutritional value.


Well, I wouldn't be that surprised, as I work in a book store and know exactly what sort of diet books we carry. (Ice cream diet, anyone?)

But that was just my point--no one is going to run around waving a flag that says, "Anorexia is the bestest EVAH!" That's because, at some level, they know that it's not healthy.


Im truly sorry for your illness. Any food addiction is horrible to go through and I wouldnt wish it on anyone.


Unfortunatly, the USDA food pyramid "balanced meals" lead me down that road. For years I ate bagels with low fat cream cheese and plates of pasta and whole grain bread, because that was what I was told to do. Then the binging started, because carbs screw up your blood sugar, and there's not much you can do to stop them.


However, I dont consider your comparison applicable on alll levels of eating. Drug/ food addictions are comparible to some extent, but in the end, you do need to find a healthy moderation with food, while abstaining is whats best with drugs. You cannot tell the recovering bulimic to abstain from food, just because she is addicted. A balance must be found. I stand by my previous statement about moderation. You need food to live; you do not need alcohol.


No, you would not tell a recovering bulimic to abstain from food. However, you would tell her to abstain from purging. You wouldn't say, "Okay, Sally... this week you can throw up HALF of what you eat! Don't worry, you're doing it in moderation!"

You need nutrition to live. You find that, for the most part, in meat and veggies. There is very little in bread or pasta or candy or soda that a body needs to live. Most of the important nutrients and vitamins that are important to a body are readily available from the foods I eat. I eat 5-6 cups of veggies a day, along with my meat and cheese and eggs.


I understand your position with sugar, because you do not need sugar specifically to live. But I still think that you would find your optimum health when you found moderation of food.

So what foods am I missing? I eat veggies and fruit. (Those are carbs, by the way, despite what the food pyramid seems to think.) I eat meats and seafood. I eat cheese and eggs. I drink lots and lots of water.

How is this not balanced? All I'm not eating is heavily refined foods that aren't healthy for you anyways.

seluratep
Thu, May-13-04, 08:09
I think the ketosis euphoria and the euphoria felt by the semi - fasting anorexic may be one and the same.

I also believe that anorexia and the disorders of insulin metabolism may well turn out in the end to be two sides of the same coin.

seluratep, I would like to recommend to you a book written in 1958 by a British Psychiatrist, Dr Richard Mackarness. Its called "Eat Fat and Grow Slim "
In fact most of this book is available on the internet, if you just do a search on Richard Mackarness or the book title !!!!

heres a little excerpt from the chapter entitled "Psychiatric aspects of Obesity and Food Addiction"...remember, this is from 1958....

"Follow up studies in anorexia nervosa are not numerous, but they show a high relapse rate, varying from 20 % to 65% three to ten years after the first admission. So the standard treatment as outlined briefly above, cannot be called good.
Are doctors looking at the illness from the wrong angle ? Should we not stop assuming that the patient's body and mind are wrong and ask whether the food they are being given is wrong for their real needs ? This could make anorexia nervosa a manifestation of of intolerance or hypersensitivity to too concentrated a diet of refined carbohydrate .... exactly the view I take of the causation of obesity "


Wow.. that does seem fascinating. Perhaps that is the reason Ive always found it so hard to recovery.

I'll definitely be looking for this book online. Thank you so much for the suggestion. :)

seluratep
Thu, May-13-04, 08:19
redworm- First of all, congratulations on your success and recovery! Your story was definitely inspiring.

Thank you for your concern and your advice. I came here, because I thought Id found a place similar to what I am going through and wanted to understand. You all have definitely given me a lot to think about and helped me to understand your lifestyle and why it is so beneficial.

Thank you all so much.. and Im sorry if I got off to an offensive start!

Breecita- Perhaps you are right. I, also, have always believes in the standard food pyramid and thought moderation of all of their sections would lead you to your optimum health.

But I am starting to see the flaws in the food pyramid; I dont know why I didnt see them before. They do not cater to a person's specific needs. What about vegetarians? I would always just replace their "meat" section with tofu and other high protein things. I suppose the same is true of carbs. You do get some carbs from fruit and veggies, so how could cutting out the processed bread and refined sugar be so bad?

Thank you again for your explanation. And I definitely do think it seems balanced. :) I'm not afraid to admit when I was wrong! My views have definitely changed some since Ive been here, and thats what I was hoping for.

corianin
Thu, May-13-04, 12:37
I was a vegetarian for almost 4 years and after the inital adjustment it wasn't that big of a deal. Like you said there are plenty of products available that give adequate protein and other nutrients. So I commend you on cutting out meat. The atkin's diet (to me anyhow) is about finding a healthy way to give my body everything it needs to produce muscle, bone, blood etc. To become the best machine it can be. At my heaviest I would sit and eat an entire cake, shoving it in literally with my hands... Then later would be trying to throw it up. Luckily I didn't spiral too far into that. The Atkin's diet has helped me understand that food has a place in myself but it will not consume every aspect of it. Food is now just a requirement for my body to function, not an all consuming need that filled my day. There is not one single food that I couldn't give up, not one single food that I MUST have. Food does not control me anymore, the number on the scale does not control me anymore. I am in complete control over my body and it's health. To me that's an amazing feeling though it took me a long time to gain that kind of confidence in myself. Thanks to the Atkin's diet I've achieved that.

~ Cori ~

P.S we LC'ers are the anti-christ to people with ED's? LOL, didn't know we had an anti-fan club... I never thought of that, what causes this hatred?

Kristine
Sat, May-15-04, 07:05
we LC'ers are the anti-christ to people with ED's? LOL, didn't know we had an anti-fan club... I never thought of that, what causes this hatred?

Because their irrational paranoia and hatred of bodily fat translates into an irrational paranoia and hatred of dietary fat. Never mind that dietary fat is ESSENTIAL, never mind that our hair, skin, nails, mood, and energy tends to improve along with a LC lifestyle; we're lazy bacon-bingers looking for an easy way out. :rolleyes: I don't bother hanging out even on recovery boards, because the hostile attitude persists and I'm sick and tired of myth-busting.

Lisa N
Sat, May-15-04, 07:36
Food does not control me anymore, the number on the scale does not control me anymore. I am in complete control over my body and it's health.

Cori, I couldn't agree more. Yes, there's a period when you're first learning to count carbs where you have to think about it more but once you get a good handle on how many carbs are in the typical foods that you eat, it's very liberating and I've found that I hardly have to think about it at all anymore; it's just become second nature to me. On top of that, I'm not thinking about food all the time because I'm hungry and constantly thinking about when my next meal will come as well as planning what I will eat at that next meal. When I get hungry now, it's true hunger and not a sugar-crash induced state where I'm ready to eat anything that isn't nailed down or moving.
My moods are also much better now as my family can attest to. All those sugar highs and crashes (and being hungry all the time) were making me decidedly grumpy before. :p

Pat S.
Mon, May-17-04, 14:30
Tofi,
Had to comment you are good I am going to start reading more carefully.
Pat S.

Smiley0202
Mon, May-17-04, 19:44
As someone who has also struggled with an eating disorder I feel the need to interject here. I first developed an eating disorder at age 16. I am now 25 years old and have finally broken the binge purge cycle for almost a year now. I've been in treatment programs, as well as individual therapy and have undergone immense improvements in the last several years. I still struggle with body image and obsessing about food and my weight, however, I have been pretty good and keeping it under control. With that said, I think the girl who posted this orginal message has a point about the whole counting carbs thing, but perhaps didn't explain it properly.

First let me say that I do not think eating disorders are in any way comparable to Low Carbing. For one thing, eating disorders are rooted in deep psychological and emotional turmoil. While often times eating disorders begin with dieting that gets out of control, not everyone goes onto develop eating disorders. There are many factors which contribute to one's developing of an eating disorder, some of which are genetic, biological, social, emotional, psychological, etc. But to put things in the simplest of terms, the main difference between an eating disorder and Low Carbing is that an eating disorder is the SYMPTOM of a significant underlying issue, and it is one that is often times extremely dangerous and self destructive.

To my knowledge, Low Carbing is the exact opposite of such self destruction. Low Carbing seeks to optimize health, not destroy it. Low Carbing seeks to empower one's self... not weaken it. Low Carbing is not a diet that gets out of control, nor is it a disease.

With that said, I think the original poster had an important point in that I can see where some individuals could get carried away with counting carbs and living the "low carb" lifestyle; that is, I can see how it could become an obsession for some people. This same type of obsession is seen in people with eating disorders and so in this sense, I can see how one might make the comparison between the two.

But bottom line.... I think anything can turn into an obsession if you have an obsessive personality....

Sccuffy
Mon, May-17-04, 20:42
seluratep,

I could only read partway through this long posting, I noticed you said you were in a commited relashionship, how does your partner feel about you losing even more weight? Are they not scared of losing you.

I wonder just what has prompted your ED, do you have a handle on that, before you even think about losing more weight, deal with what is pushing you to think that 80 is the magic number and all the pain/hurt will leave you when you reach that weight, because it won't, it will still be there like a shadow on a sunny day, following you.

I myself use to have a magic number, and if I got below that then I would be "happy" and life would be grand, but I have realized along time ago, that life is grand everyday no mater how much I weight and no damn number on a scale can erase the painful memories that I have, I have dealth with them and they are in my past, now I want to live, and live for me!

A life is a terrible thing to waste please don't waste it, you have the power to change your world.

gotbeer
Tue, May-18-04, 10:03
First let me say that I do not think eating disorders are in any way comparable to Low Carbing. For one thing, eating disorders are rooted in deep psychological and emotional turmoil. While often times eating disorders begin with dieting that gets out of control, not everyone goes onto develop eating disorders. There are many factors which contribute to one's developing of an eating disorder, some of which are genetic, biological, social, emotional, psychological, etc.

One hears this "multifactoral" theory (genetic, biological, social, pocket lint, sports, hot sauce, etc) a lot when dealing with puzzling disorders. While some find multifactoral theories useful, I do not - they raise red flags for me in that they signify a disturbing failure of deductive thought.

Consider stomach ulcers. For decades ulcers were considered a multifactoral disease: caused by a combination of genetics, physical stress, emotional stress, spicy food, and so on. Ulcer patients were treated with milk and advised to reduce stress. Neither did much good.

It was then that Dr. Marshall and Dr. Warren discovered Helicobacter pylori - the bacteria that causes ulcers. (http://www.cellsalive.com/helico.htm) Although they were ridiculed for years, eventually the useless multifactoral model for ulcers imploded. Nowadays, antibiotics do an excellent job of curing or controlling most ulcers - and, spicy foods like hot peppers and garlic have antimicrobial properties that would have helped stop the ulcers before they started.

Consider obesity. One hears multifactoral models for obesity/overeating all the time - the same infuriating mixture of fatty diet, genetics, stress, etc. Stunningly, however, the simple steps of reducing the carbs and increasing the fat in one's diet are melting off pounds around the world, and reshaping the economics of food - and the multifactoral model of obesity is dying a bitter but inevitable death as the truth about carbs is spreading.

Now, consider anorexia. Like stomach ulcers (historically) and obesity (partially still), anorexia is considered a multifactoral, food/eating-related disorder, with other nebulous, unproven factors involved. In my opinion, that is just meaningless crap - comforting crap to some, perhaps, but still crap to anyone honestly searching for solid answers.

Now, the sentiment behind this crap is not necessarily bad - I'm sure it is spread by good people who are just trying to ease the pain associated with those with an ED. The problem with spreading this crap is that it discourages people from thinking critically about concrete causes or treatments. In the end, this makes the multifactoral model the enemy of a cure to this or any other ailment.

Breecita
Wed, May-19-04, 17:50
But I am starting to see the flaws in the food pyramid; I dont know why I didnt see them before. They do not cater to a person's specific needs. What about vegetarians? I would always just replace their "meat" section with tofu and other high protein things. I suppose the same is true of carbs. You do get some carbs from fruit and veggies, so how could cutting out the processed bread and refined sugar be so bad?

Thank you again for your explanation. And I definitely do think it seems balanced. :) I'm not afraid to admit when I was wrong! My views have definitely changed some since Ive been here, and thats what I was hoping for.

It's a common misconception that we all eat tons of meat and no veggies, and I think part of the reason that people have reacted so strongly is because it's a stereotype that everyone is tired of hearing.

I'm glad you've learned a little more about low carbing! I wish others were willing to listen. There would be fewer people out there eating 3 pounds of bacon and a tub of sugar free ice cream and wondering why they don't lose weight. :D

Smiley0202
Wed, May-19-04, 20:58
One hears this "multifactoral" theory (genetic, biological, social, pocket lint, sports, hot sauce, etc) a lot when dealing with puzzling disorders. While some find multifactoral theories useful, I do not - they raise red flags for me in that they signify a disturbing failure of deductive thought.

They actually show a great deal of reasoning and thought. Do you know how many studies had to be conducted and how many hours, months, years of research had to be done in order for even one scientific person to state their "multifactoral" theories with any bit of validity? These aren't random ideas thrown out sloppily by amateurs. THey are theories which are carefully constructed and amply supported by scientific evidence.

Consider stomach ulcers. For decades ulcers were considered a multifactoral disease: caused by a combination of genetics, physical stress, emotional stress, spicy food, and so on. Ulcer patients were treated with milk and advised to reduce stress. Neither did much good.

Stomach ulcers are not psychiatric disorders. The psychological mind involved in an eating disorder is far more complex than the bacteria and enzymes involved in the digestive system. They are two totally different facets of the body. Therefore it should follow that the development of a psychological disorder, such as anorexia, would be due to reasons more complex than that of an ulcer. It is logical that more factors would influence the psychiatric mind than would influence the digestive system simply by nature of the way the two systems work.


Consider obesity. One hears multifactoral models for obesity/overeating all the time - the same infuriating mixture of fatty diet, genetics, stress, etc. Stunningly, however, the simple steps of reducing the carbs and increasing the fat in one's diet are melting off pounds around the world, and reshaping the economics of food -

Just because Low Carbing has worked for some people who try it, it doesn't mean it works for everyone. Moreover, just because a person can lose weight low carbing, it doesn't mean they have won their battle with food. Until a person deals with the underlying issues surrounding food and why they became overweight in the first place, it is highly unlikely they will remain at a healthy weight/fitness level. If your theory about carbs is true, than every single person in the entire united states would be obese because they all live in a society that promotes high carb/sugary food, and more than likely, we've all consumed carbs at some point. This, however, is not the case. Only some people go overboard with the carbs and food consumption. The question is, why? Until people deal with the "why's", it is unlikely they will maintain whatever weight loss they may achieve.

Now, consider anorexia. Like stomach ulcers (historically) and obesity (partially still), anorexia is considered a multifactoral, food/eating-related disorder, with other nebulous, unproven factors involved.

As someone who has struggled with an eating disorder for almost 10 years, as well as someone who has researched the topic for almost as long, I can say that researchers have found ample evidence used to support various theories concerning why eating disorders develop. Studies have been conducted and research has been done to confirm certain factors influencing the development of eating disorders. I'm sure 10 years from now researchers will have learned even more reasons why such disorders persist in some individuals. But regardless, it is extremely narrow minded to think there is only one reason behind america's struggle with weight, and that that reason is as simple as the carbohydrate.

In my opinion, that is just meaningless crap - comforting crap to some, perhaps, but still crap to anyone honestly searching for solid answers.

Now, the sentiment behind this crap is not necessarily bad - I'm sure it is spread by good people who are just trying to ease the pain associated with those with an ED. The problem with spreading this crap is that it discourages people from thinking critically about concrete causes or treatments. In the end, this makes the multifactoral model the enemy of a cure to this or any other ailment.



Eating disorders are complex diseases and can not be compared to, or treated the same, as any other disorder, be it psychological or physical.

gotbeer
Thu, May-20-04, 08:55
Eating disorders are complex diseases and can not be compared to, or treated the same, as any other disorder, be it psychological or physical.

Of course they can compared. I just did it.

Eating disorders are touted as complex diseases, but I have yet to see a shred of proof that they are.

Not one shred.

kcshowman
Thu, May-27-04, 12:02
Hey Seluratep,

How's it going? I can tell that you're trying to deal with a lot of issues--you mentioned PTSD. I won't ask, as I'm sure it's a fairly private thing, but I'm willing to bet it has a lot to do with your "goal weight" of 80# that you mentioned. I too have a goal weight right now of 240--probably the first goal of several descending goals.

I'm dealing with AvPD--avoidant personality disorder. Very not fun. Just recently recognized what it is, though I've been a slave to it for about 18 years (I'm 32) and eating was my way of coping. And by the nature of AvPD, it was self-reenforcing--the added weight/size added to the AvPD, which added to the eating, etc. I weighed myself this morning at 310.5# and I'm in a 'swing phase' where I'm trying to get serious about Atkins again, but it's hard to do for a myriad of reasons, not just internal ones. You're not alone in weight issues which might be related to other things.

BTW, I hope you don't plan on dropping down to 80# too fast before you go to college. There's a popular myth, which I've seen played out about half the time, called the "freshman fifteen", regarding the number of pounds gained on average by college freshmen, based on the new-found freedom and necessity of self-sufficiency. Might be best to hold off on the weight drop until you hit school, just not even think about it, and then give 'er a shot when you find out what school's all about once you're there. Could serve to balance out and save you from the 'freshman fifteen' altogether.

Something else you might find interesting, that I've found pretty informative-- www.mybodycomp.com . It takes some measurements you make and figures your body composition in terms of lean tissue and body fat and your basal metabolic rate--how much you burn up each day just by being alive. Pretty insightful stuff, and pretty accurate from what I've seen there.

sean

loserbaby
Thu, May-27-04, 22:28
Gotbeer, as a philosophy student I'm all for deductive/ ration thought, but do you have an ED? As a recovering bullemic, I can tell you that their is a huge difference between straight obesity and an ED.Fixing the obesity problem for me was a matter of switching to low-carb. Stopping purging took a lot of mental, physical, psychological, and emotional work. If something is not a complex disease, then why would it have such a complex solution? As someone who seems so commited to deductive thought, you should know that your argument is not(logically) valid, nor is it strong enough to be even cogent. Giving one true example and one possibly true example, then making a broad an unscientifically proven co-relation adding the premise "its just meaningless crap" does not a good argument make.