An Animal rights person that feels bad.

[DEM]

I was was wondering if there were any other animal rights activists out there that feel like crap being on this diet? I know I do, but the results have lured me in. I feelt guilt every time I eat but its not stopping me. I plan on going vegetarian when I finish and pay my dues to the animal kingdom through a crap load of volunteering. I know I am a hypocrite but hey, everyone is at some point. There has to be other people out there like me. Otherwise I feel even worse :)

[freckles]

I'm a little confused...this woe is supposed to be just that...not a temporary quick fix weight loss scheme. If the 'diet' works and you loose all your weight, but then go back to eating all those carbs you'll just gain your weight back, so what's the point? Aren't there vegetarians that follow Atkins? Seems like I've heard of some....Atkins says it's possible, just MUCH harder. Maybe you should check into that or find another diet to try?

[DEM]

Well I dont plan on just going right off the diet and stuffing myself with carbs. I just plan on leading a vegetarian diet, regardless of if it follows atkins plan or not. I will hit that road block when I get to it though.

[Justjen72]

I agree with freckles. Why pick a diet that is going to cause you this much worries.

[Moonwalker]

I feel the same way about how animals are treated when they are being produced for food. I feel really bad for them, but i look at it this way.. what good is me not eating meat going to do? Absolutely nothing.. if me stopping eating meat would actually make a difference, and stop some of the cruelty the poor animals have to go through, then i would do it in a heartbeat. But it doesnt..

[etoiles]

You don't have to eat meat on atkins. You can of course, that's up to you. I have though been following atkins for almost 1 year and not eaten any meat, not even gelatin products or anything like that (I do eat dairy and eggs though)

there is a vegetarian forum on this site you could visit if you want to include more meat free meals in your rotation.

[DEM]

I agree and I dont try and talk others out of their eating of meat. I am eating alot of meat lately and feel like a bad person but I keep doing it for results. I am getting through it with that attitude that even if I eat meat for a while it wont change anything. But down deep I believe I am innocent of the death that is inflicted on an animal if I dont eat their meat. And guilty by association if I do. I am not trying to rationalize this to anyone because everyone feels the way they feel but animals are equals in my eyes. A lot of people disagree and thats fine, but to me, if I quit eating meat it probably wouldent change anything but I wouldent be guilty of it either. I wont be a mouth that needs meat that leads to even more slaughter. But right now I am. I struggle with the issue but I guess I am going the selfish path(again this is all in my opinion, not anyone elses) by doing something I find wrong just because I like the side effects of it. But Like I said, I will try and atone for what I see as wrongs done by me when I am done, and then like freckles said, maybe try atkins version of vegetarianism.

[DEM]

Thanks etoiles! I didnt realize that. I am going to have to stop by that section.

Justjen72

Because it works. I cant fight the fact that the diet works, and works well. If I had a heart problem I would take medication for my heart even if I didnt want to. But I have a weight problem and maybe I dont like the means but it does get you to the end. Low-Fat diets do nothign to help with me. They work but extremely slowly and are far to restrictive to be practical.

[Grimalkin]

if me stopping eating meat would actually make a difference, and stop some of the cruelty the poor animals have to go through, then i would do it in a heartbeat. But it doesnt..

I agree. And you getting sick from an insulin disorder isn't going to do them any good either.

I know how you feel though. I eat this way because I must, but I hate the cruelty associated with much of the meat and egg and dairy industries and hate contributing to that. But remember the grain and vegetable industries can be just as destructive to habitat and wildlife through use of pesticides, herbicides, and poor farming practices.

So when I can I buy organic or from local farmers, I make a point of trying vegetarian recipes for variety, I participate in some local volunteer efforts, and I try to be a savvy consumer and boycott products where I feel there is a lot of cruelty. Organic and cruelty-free tends to cost more though.

[chebbles]

I dont abide cruelty to animals, don't think many folk do, however that does not always translate into not eating any meat for most folk. I do not believe in unnecessary cruelty to animals (caged hens etc), so as much as possible I buy free range and organic meat and eggs etc...sometimes from a farm if possible.

I feel for you DEM, and think it is sad that you have so much angst about doing this, but there other alternatives such as trying the vegetarian forum to see how many people manage successfully. Good luck with it all.

[LovableLC]

I don't think she was trying to sway anyone or make it seem bad to eat meat or be on this diet. I think she was simply wondering if anyone else shared in her feelings she has been having.

[mb99]

It really isn't difficult to follow this diet and incorporate your animal beliefs, other then induction and early OWL. If you actually follow OWL quickly, or take an Atkins for life approach and start at 60g or so, you can easily be on plan. Eat Tofu, Tempeh (I love tempeh), lots of eggs (learn different ways to cook them), and loads of vegies.

A standard vegetarian very low-carb (early OWL) Atkins diet would be:

Breakfast: Large omlette filled with mushrooms (good for vege), spinach (iron - no red meat), and other choices.

Lunch: Salad made with lettuce, cucumber, vegies, etc with some pre-seasoned cold tempeh thrown in; or a marinated and stir-fried tofu for lower carbs.

Snacks: vegies etc, or try lower-carb whole milk yogurts later own; to keep fat content up try nuts, especially higher fat ones like macadamias; also to keep fat content up try roasting vegies that absorb a ton of oil like eggplant, or eat green beans or broccolli or cauliflower loaded with butter.

Dinner: Endless possibilities - I am actually not vegetarian but I eat vegetarian at least 3 nights a week.
Last night I got some squewers, (spelling!!), chucked on some cherry tomatoes, button mushrooms, green pepper slices, and tofu that I had soaked in soy sauce and garlic and chilli for a few hours, cooked in A LOT of olive oil. Chucked em on a fry pan, turned, dinner was ready in 10 minutes from start to finish.
Heaps of quiches, frittatas, etc in standard vegetarian cookbooks; some aren't that 'eggy' tasting if well seasoned
Try a big vegie roast (zuccini, eggplant, peppers) with a soy protein shake on the side.

Alternatively, if you want to stick to a lower-rung OWL band, which would require eating meat, have a long think about what your actual objections to eating meat are. Write down what your problems are, and think if there are animal products you could still eat for a while without feeling bad. I am thinking.
* Fish that is sustainably caught from the wild - not in overcrowded farms and not atlantic salmon (notorious!!) -- can I object to that? The fish live full lives, in the wild, not in there own filth etc. I mean, sure they die, but do I feel as bad about that as eating a cage chicken? It is easy to get such fish, ask your fishmonger. They may not know for sure if you live inland, but some web research can help you know what types of fish are in sustainable industries
* Game meats. I know many vegetarians that for health reasons reintroduced kangaroo (I am in Australia!) into there diet for health reasons. Find out how heavily regulated hunting is for certain animals avaliable is. Game meats that are hunted by businesses to be sold commercially tend to be very heavily regulated industries due to the risk of the disease etc. It also means the deer or whatever has lived in the wild, running up hills or whatever, rather then farmed.
* What about animals without nervous systems? Like clams and stuff? My old housemate was vege with this exception but I can't think what other things there are..
* What about, and maybe we are pushing it here, free range adult slaughtered chickens? Very easily avaliable.

[DEM]

I am a he but thats neither here nor there :D. Lovable is right. I am not trying to change anyones opinion. Just wondering if I was alone in the way I feel. Its not so bad that it will force me off the diet, just a feeling of guilt now and then.

[sixpence]

I always joke around about changing PETA to People for the Eating of Tasty Animals. I do respect them for being vocal about their beliefs though. In my opinion, they get a little too radical (they recommend sending your dog's feces to the president of IAMs to let them know that you think that their practices stink - clever and catchy, just way too extreme for me!!!). I do believe that they can do a lot of good for the environmental conditions for animals that are being raised for food. All in all, I feel that maybe the extremism is a good way to make somebody budge a little.

(DEM...this comment does not apply to you) However, I fully do not agree with damaging other people's property (i.e. throwing paint on furs) or trying to make somebody feel guilty for making a life choice to eat meat or wear leather, fur, or whatever else they want to do.

[DEM]

I agree extremisim tends not to help. I think though that it comes about due to the fact that they are almost powerless to stop what they see as wrong. I live and let live but I have to say I have come very close to throwing paint on fur, I havent done it but I have thought about it. The terrible things done to those animals used to make fur coats is something out of a blood and guts horror movie. They live in cages that are either to small for them to lay or turn around in or just big enough to walk in a circle and most go insane within a few months and just yelp and try and move any which way. Atleast the anal or genital electrocution, not matter how vile, gives them some kind of peace.

[jnkerr]

DEM, I know exactly how you feel. I started buying only organic meats, dairy, and eggs several years ago and not consuming meat when eating out at restaurants (you just KNOW they get the cheapest, cruelest stuff there is). That led to me just flat out giving up meat. I still feel guilty that I eat dairy (what do they do with the baby cows since we are drinking their food?). Eggs I don't feel too bad about, as long as they are fresh, local, free range, organic. Same for wild fish. I've said so many times that I wish I could eat meat, but I can't really bring myself to do it. There's a lot of nutrition in meat, but I hate the industry, so I just can't do it.

However, there are a lot of realy great vegetarian products out there, making this completely doable.

Hopefully buying organic might help you assuage some of that guilt.

[DEM]

I have been trying to find some of that stuff jnkerr. Can you suggest anything good?

[WeeOne]

jnkrr, don't feel bad about drinking milk. Milk cows lactate even when they don't have a calf to raise. They are milked 2 times a day once in the morning and then again in the evening and it is a pain free process.

When we lived on the dairy farm and a cow had a calf, that cow would not be milked until the calf was weened.

Wee

[orchidday]

DEM, I totally understand what you are saying. I actually belong to PETA but I eat meat because my health requires it. I think you can walk a middle ground. I think we can advocate for humane ranching and farming practices and we must be willing to pay more for the meat we do eat....... As well as the eggs and dairy. Besides food, there are many other ways animals are abused. Bow hunting, lack of neuter spay programs for dogs and cats, the way veal and fois gras is produced, the way kosher meat is butchered, cosmetic and product testing, etc. I think we can be better consumers by demanding better methods of slaughter. They CAN do this humanely but they do not because we the consumers do not demand it or want to pay for it. I try to buy organically produced eggs and stay away from veal. I would pay more for food that is produced humanely and I try to keep myself educated. I don't believe in some things PETA says and does but I do believe they make a point.

Orchid

[DEM]

I totally agree orchidday. The place I do draw the line on my meat eating is veal, lamb, and any other sort of meat in that area. I have never eaten it anyway. I wont eat lobster either. That is one of the cruelest acts a human can commit against an animal...what we do to lobsters. Last I checked nothing likes being boiled alive. But I do advocate, no matter how much I personally hate the whole idea, a decent death for the animals that become food. A large percent of the animals that are stunned end up not being as stunned as thought and are ripped to pieces and totally aware of it. This kind of thing has to stop.

[RD64]

Don't feel guilty. There is Nothing wrong with eating meat. God provided it for us and the bible is full of stories of eating meat. I hunt deer and eat all the meat and don't waste any and if we did not harvest the animals they would be so abundant they would be starving. Here in Pa. they are worried about so many deer that the forests are not regenerating cause the deer are eating all the sapplings so no new trees are growing.

I can't see how you belong to peta and eat meat. I'm sorry but those groups are so nutty in there logic they have no credibily with me.

Hey how would you like to be a vegetable and ripped out by your roots and then cut up and boiled.

I'm not trying to pick a fight but I'm sick of people in peta saying that just because I hunt with gun and bow that I'm a terrible cruel person. If you don't agree then fine don't eat meat but don't try and make me do what your group wants.

You shouldn't be on this diet then.

[DEM]

I am an athiest so the bibles opinion on it doesnt sway me very much. No one can convince me that killing animals, while maybe a nessecary evil, is a good thing. In my opinion in this day and age there is no excuse for fur (we dont live in caves and need fur to keep warm), Ivory(we dont need Ivory to make tools anymore) etc. The way I see hunting is, go out there with your bare hands and come back with the deer, then its fair and I wont have a word to say about it ;)

[LadyBelle]

I don't always aprove of the methods of killing animals. However I also don't aprove of completely not eating them. If everyone stopped eating meat or using animal products, there would be no farms or ranches. We have domesticated animals to a point they need human care. If cows were released into the wild they would over graze, probably not only causing thier extinction, but that of other grazing animals in the area.

Think of the animal rights groups that release minks or sables. The poor animals typically starve or freeze because they can't survive on thier own. While the intentions are noble, the result is often worse for the animal.

I also support controlled deer and elk hunting. Hunting not only provides food, but also helps to control populations so the animals have enough food for the winter. Poaching and uncontrolled hunting, especially if the meat is wasted and left to rot, is wrong in any form.

[tholian8]

I was a vegetarian for 10 years. During that time, I put on a load of weight--mostly because I bought into the low-protein dogma that was being spouted by "all the best" nutrition gurus in the 80s and 90s. So I filled up on carbs and guess what, I got really fat.

When I started LC for the first time, back in '99, I discovered within 2 months that I felt much better eating meat. The decision to go carnivorous was absolutely wrenching. I felt as if I was betraying animals, the planet and even my religious beliefs. But in the end, I decided to stick with it, because the health benefits were undeniable...and selfish or not, I simply could not consciously choose to betray my own health and well-being. I'm not saying that everyone should do what I did, or that vegetarianism is unhealthy. This is just my personal experience.

I had to re-learn cooking, because I'd been a veggie all my adult life. Fortunately, I like to cook and I re-framed it as a challenge.

My "natural" preferences run to fresh veggies--lots of salads--and grilled meats. I have no idea why. :rolleyes:

[potatofree]

I'm not going to step on anyone's beliefs, but judging by what I've seen with my own eyes in THIS area anyway, I don't see a lot of cruelty to farm animals. Chickens and such have brains smaller than a walnut, and I personally don't believe them to be capable of emotion. Of course I can't PROVE it, so whatever a person wants to believe, I can't argue.

I don't necessarily approve of outright cruelty, but living in a rural, farming area, I can tell you that a lot of what "city people" think about ranching and farming is VERY loosely based in reality. Remember, much like the one-sided "Atkins will ruin your kidneys and kill you" stories, the reports of horrendous treatment of animals might JUST be exaggerations and outright fabrications in a lot of cases. I'm not saying it NEVER happens, but I do feel a lot of it is sensationalized. Just my opinion.

I personally know two farms in the area that got turned in and prosecuted for underfeeding their cattle when the CHILDREN were being mistreated and nothing was done! (This has nothing to do with the point really, but I found it interesting...)

All that being said, you are definately entitled to your feelings and opinions. I just hate to see you beat yourself up over it.

[DEM]

I just really disagree with that. If a chicken is smaller then a human, it cant have a brain the size of a human, its all relative. I dont understand how anyone can have a "belief" based on any information of any kind that an animal such as chickens dont have emotion because you cant have any information of that kind. It would seem to me by default it should just be assumed because we have emotion so other living automotive life forms with brains probably do to. A brain is a brain is a brain. They all carry out the same functions.

And the whole kids being abused but they get them for underfeeding cattle, those are two extremely different things. When you are accused of mistreating your animals that are for buisness it has nothing to do with children. I am not trying to be mean when I say this but you dont see animal cruelty because you choose not to look for it. Go to any farm that is used for slaughter and then tell me that again. And its NOT ok to mistreat animals just because you plan on killing them at some point.

Our emotions are sadness, anger, happiness, etc. All animals show these qualities. We are a wired system just like them. When we get mad its because our brain tells us we are mad, not because we have some special control over that fact, just like animals. When an animal is sitting somewhere and someone, say, hits it. It gets angry(an emotion and a hotwired one, just like ours) and say I give that animal some food and play with him instead, he gets happy and its noticable(just like a human would be) or if I had two dogs that were close and one died, the remaining dog would show mourning for his lost friend, all of these are emotions. Just because some animals have trouble expressing them visualy doesnt mean they dont exist.

So that is why I beat myself up about it. I dont mind that we dont share beliefs but what I said above are mine so I almost like feeling bad about it, it reminds me that I am going agains my principles. But obviously weight loss is worth more then my principles right now :)

[Porcellino]

I am a former vegetarian. The MAIN reason that I was a vegetarian was not about cruelty to animals but I found that the longer I went without eating meat, the more I saw them as something NOT to eat. I feel good now about eating meat because it has done wonders for my health. I am not willing to save a chicken, cow or any other animal's life to feel as crappy as I did for the almost 5 years that I was a vegetarian. My health comes first, I am at the top of the food chain, therefore I make the decision. If I felt that torn up about animals, I would never have eaten them again. I am lucky to be able to buy organic free range meat and I am very picky when it comes to eating out. I tend also to gravitate towards a lot of fresh vegetables and my favorite meal is a huge salad topped with grilled chicken or fish.

Dem, I would encourage you to find a vegetarian way to do this diet - why torture yourself? Maybe cut out meat at one meal, or switch to South Beach, I believe they have a veggie version. Atkins (especially induction) might be a little extreme. Life is too short to be that unhappy, and there are plenty of other people and situations that will come along and upset you without you doing it to yourself.

[DEM]

Because I am not anti-meat eating. I cant stop other people from doing it and I cant just jump into a vegetarian diet, its going to take time. I dont get a power feeling when it comes to eating animals though. If you were caught face to face with, lets say, a mountain lion your gonna drop a few rungs on that food chain really fast. The food chain doesnt mean you have to eat as much of something as you can because you are able to. I dont eat large amounts of meat on this diet and I am doing fine. That is good enough for me. When I get to the place I want to be I will ease myself into a vegetarian lifestyle. And atkins does have a vegetarian version that I am looking into. I was just asking if other people had the same feelings I did. People that view animals as completely expendable telling me that I should just find another diet and save myself the grief arnt really what I was looking for because they see things exactly opposite as me and cant understand what I am saying. They are looking at it from their point of view which is they either A)dont care about animals at all or B)they care but they dont understand what my point is because animals are inferior to humans. Or someting along those lines, I dont and cant speak for everyone.

[FrecklFluf]

Maybe it would help you, DEM, to clarify to yourself your position on eating meat. I don't think that it has to be an all-or-nothing proposition. Here are my personal thoughts about how I treat animals and/or how they should be treated; maybe something like this, modified to fit your own viewpoint, could be helpful to you. And of course, if you decide to go vegetarian, I certainly wish you well.

Companion animals: I would never intentionally harm my (or anyone else's) pet. If I adopt a pet, I make sure that pet is well-fed, is emotionally nurtured, and receives appropriate medical treatment throughout its life.

Livestock: By this I mean domesticated animals raised for the purpose of generating a product (meat, eggs, milk, hide, etc.). Animals of this type should receive adequate nutrition and medical care while alive. The living conditions should be as good as practically possible. Their deaths should be relatively quick and painless.

Wild animals: I do not hunt, but if I did, I would never hunt for sport, nor would I be purposely wasteful. (That seems to me to take the animal's life a bit too lightly.) I would not lay traps (such as for rodents, etc.) unless not to do so would endanger people and/or I could do so with little detriment to the animals themselves. I would not try to capture or keep a wild animal, except perhaps for rehabilitation. If I severly injured a wild animal (hitting a deer with a car, for instance), I would arrange to have it put it out of its misery.

Some other things you can do that might make this a more palatable choice for you are buying free range chickens, pasture-fed beef, etc. Also, have you considered donating to the Humane Farming Association (http://www.hfa.org/)?

[DEM]

Well my definition of eating meat is as clear as its going to get :). I do it but I dont like it. I have done it most of my life and never liked it. Not that I dont like the meat, its the way the meat gets to me and the taking of a life that I dont like. Like I said, I was not looking for an discussion about what animals are ok to kill and which arnt, I got dragged into that one. I was looking to see if their were other people out there thinking the same things as me. I am not hear to try and preach to anyone about not eating more or anything of that nature. I love how people have helped me though by suggesting vegetarian alternatives. I am not here to explain or justifty why I feel the way I do, I just do and it probably wouldent make alot of sense to someone that didnt see this topic like I do anyway. Obviously atkins isnt the best diet for people like me but hey, atkins was right about one thing, it works.

[FrecklFluf]

I was looking to see if their were other people out there thinking the same things as me.I do think the same as you to some extent. That's why I submitted that post; thinking clearly about it helped me to decide how I was going to approach the whole issue. I basically decided that my health, and the health of other humans, was more important than any particular animal's life, but that I will try not to impact other species any more than I need to. That's why I will kill flies and roaches (they spread disease), but pick up most spiders and throw them outside. I have made peace with how I affect the world around me, which I think is something that everyone has to do at some level.

I think that for you, though, a vegetarian Atkins diet would be worth looking into. Especially if you eat eggs. After all, IIRC, Dr. A called them "perfect food." I'm sure all us carnivorous omnivores wish you the best of luck.

[RD64]

I'm sorry if I come off as being pissed off but like I said I'm a deer hunter as well as a bowhunter, I used to trap for money as a boy and the abuse that me and my fellow hunters have taken from PETA and other so called animal rights group is beyond belief. DEM I'm not singling you out. We have been painted badly by these groups as inhuman and cruel. I think alot of these people are from the cities and live in a bubble where there way is it and thats final and eveyone must conform. They do not realize what would happen to the deer herd if left unchecked and not hunted. There are no natural predaters to thin the deer herd. Like I said here in Pa. there are so many deer that biologists are saying that if we don't thin the herd more our forests will die off in years to come because of the deer over browsing. I live near Pittsburgh and there are so many deer here that you see carcasses all along the highway and peoples cars get damaged and sometimes the drivers get seriously hurt or killed in collisions with deer. All I'm saying is get out of your bubbles and look at the other side. Sorry to rant but thats my side. I know this is a diet forum and I'll go back to discussing my diet now which is going great :)

Hunters and sportsman do more and put more money into the conservation and protection of wildlife than all of these so called animal rights groups put together by far. In the early 1900's deer were almost extinct in Pa. but do to the formation of the game commission and hunters liscence dollars we have a herd here of 1 million plus!

[FrecklFluf]

You make a good point, RD64. Sometimes taking care of a species means controlling the numbers of that species, and what is bad for one animal can be good for the whole population. Deer would eat themselves out of a home if not for hunters.

[xtena]

Because I am not anti-meat eating. I cant stop other people from doing it and I cant just jump into a vegetarian diet.

Sure you could jump right in, if you really wanted to. I became a vegetarian literally overnight. I was living in China; loved meat; got food poisoning after eating bad fish; didn't eat ANYTHING for two days, and I simply stopped eating meat after that even when my stomach and bowels finally recovered. At that time I simply believed that meat was unhealthy and I had felt guilty about eating it for that reason, not for animal rights reasons.

I stayed a vegetarian for over five years. I switched back to meat eating just as quickly after developing a borderline case of gestational diabetes during my pregnancy: my usual veggie protein sources were making me feel really sick and for my own health and that of my child I HAD to eat more protein. So I just started eating meat again.

[DEM]

First: No problem RD I know how it is. Everyone has their opinion on the matter and your just as entitled to yours. As for hunting I dont completely disagree, there is overpopulation, just like freckl said, they will eat themselves out of house and home. But on the otherhand we enjoy not talking about ourselves in the same sense as we do animals. Look around the world..humans are dying in huge numbers of starvation because of overpopulation all over the world, but we dont "thin the herd" in any of those cases obviously because we are humans, but its a reason to say we need to hunt animals. I am not speaking in a way like I think its wrong that people use it as a reason for hunting but people arnt hunting to help the deer, they are hunting because they enjoy killing the deer.

As for jumping into a vegetarian diet, you said it yourself xtena you had help. When I got sick from eating tuna one time I quit eating tuna just like that. I have never gotten sick off meat such as beef, im sure it would be a lot easier to quit eating it if I did. I quit smoking in a week, because its easy? No, because I developed ashtma from smoking to much for to long, easy to quit fast in that situation. If it was easy to quit anything everyone would be skinny and in perfect health.

I am not trying to trample anyones beliefs or opinions here, I just want to make that clear. We are on two different sides of an idea and its well known that no one is going to change their mind :). So back to atkins talk!

[jnkerr]

WeeOne, thanks! You read crazy PETA sites and they talk about how eating dairy supports the veal industry....I didn't think that could be true, but I WAS wondering what happened to them.

[jnkerr]

DEM, the morningstar farms products are good, one of my fave breakfasts for the weekend goes something like this:

2 morningstar farms sausage patties topped with:
cream cheese
muenster cheese
fried eggs


I grew up fairly vegetarian because my mother was. We got a lot of products from a 7th day adventist bookstore, but nowadays they sell them in the health section and sometimes even regular sections of the grocery store.

Gardenburger riblets! Has anyone tried these?! I just got some and they actually taste like ribs. That's according to my non-veg boyfriend, even.

Just go explore, some are good...some aren't. I'm sure the veg forum will have great suggestions.

[DEM]

hmm I have tried some morningstar products. I didnt care much for the pizza burgers though..nasty :). As for eating dairy supports the veal industry. Well if I were you I would look into the numbers. A hell of a lot of dairy cows, when no longer useful end up as meat on your table. Check out PETA's proof before you disbelieve them. Believe it or not PETA does a hell of a lot of research into their claims.

[jnkerr]

I'm hoping that isn't the case with organic products. And I'm also hoping that because I don't eat that meat, I am not supporting that particular practice.

In an ideal world, we would be living in small communities, helping each other and living off the land. Well, not some people's ideal, but mine anyway. We'd know just exactly how our food got to us and what was done to it prior to it getting on our plate.

I'm in the same boat with ya, DEM. And we could all go 'round and 'round in theological, spiritual, philisophical discussions and I doubt it'd make either of us feel any better. But knowing there are other people out there with the same dilemma does help alleviate the guilt, even though it doesn't remove it.

I guess you just have to draw the line somewhere and decide what it is you can live with. For me, organic, humanely raised products are the only ones I don't criticize people for eating (not that I'm outright in my criticism, mind you). But for myself, I don't eat meat, just dairy and eggs. Whos to say that chicken is all that different from my parrotlet? Afterall, the chicken's brain is bigger. Or that a pig is all that much different from my dog? I could milk a cow or collect eggs with a clear conscience, but I could not bring myself to slaughter an animal, so eating one makes me feel like a hypocrite. That's just where I stand, anyway.

[DEM]

I totally agree. Eggs and dairy are fine(as long as its humane, pumping cows full of hormones so they will produce so much milk they could explode is cruel in my eyes). Veal and Lamb is where I completely draw the line. A mother wouldent want someone to come take her child away so they could butcher it, neither does the cow. Thats just how I see it.

[ItsTheWooo]

I'm sorry if I come off as being pissed off but like I said I'm a deer hunter as well as a bowhunter, I used to trap for money as a boy and the abuse that me and my fellow hunters have taken from PETA and other so called animal rights group is beyond belief. DEM I'm not singling you out. We have been painted badly by these groups as inhuman and cruel. I think alot of these people are from the cities and live in a bubble where there way is it and thats final and eveyone must conform. They do not realize what would happen to the deer herd if left unchecked and not hunted. There are no natural predaters to thin the deer herd. Like I said here in Pa. there are so many deer that biologists are saying that if we don't thin the herd more our forests will die off in years to come because of the deer over browsing. I live near Pittsburgh and there are so many deer here that you see carcasses all along the highway and peoples cars get damaged and sometimes the drivers get seriously hurt or killed in collisions with deer. All I'm saying is get out of your bubbles and look at the other side. Sorry to rant but thats my side. I know this is a diet forum and I'll go back to discussing my diet now which is going great :)

Hunters and sportsman do more and put more money into the conservation and protection of wildlife than all of these so called animal rights groups put together by far. In the early 1900's deer were almost extinct in Pa. but do to the formation of the game commission and hunters liscence dollars we have a herd here of 1 million plus!
(advance warning, my post might be offensive to some vegitarians, so if you aren't in the mood to read something potentially inflammatory it's best if you skip this :D)

Good post.

First of all there is nothing "immoral" about using animals for our needs. Species-preference (putting what is in your species best interest above other species) is as natural as self-preference. It is perfectly natural to favor those who are closest in genetic makeup to yourself; every single organism on the face of the earth does. All animals, people included, favor themselves and their family members, then their local communities/culture, then finally members of their species. There is a reason all healthy organisms (people included) have a tendency to fear or feel disconnect with the unfamiliar, and favor the familiar. It is just good sense from an evolutionary standpoint... if you protect/favor/gel with those who are genetically similar to yourself, the odds of pheno/genotypes similar to yours surviving and reproducing is increased. Without these hard-wired biases, life on earth as we know it would not exist.

Not only is it perfectly natural to feel less of a affinity with animals than with people, but being a predator is also perfectly natural. Life feeds on life; without death, life cannot continue. Just as deer eat the grasses, something must eat the deer. The original poster quite eloquently explained what happens if humans stopped hunting deer. They will overpopulate, they will infringe on our species. Neither of us will be happy - deer will be forced to live near humans, and humans will be forced to live near deer.

I do support the movement for more humane slaughter practices, I don't see how cruelty for cruelty's sake can be justified. However, the notion that animals should be given equal consideration to other humans is just patently ridiculous. The picture PETA paints of hunters and ranchers as naziesque sadistic weirdos is both disgusting and grossly exaggerated. Think about it: even if you were a cruel person, why on earth would you treat the goods that your livelihood depends on as an outlet for your sadistic tendencies? If I worked in a clothing shop, would I take a pair of sheers to my merchandise? I don't think so.

I've always looked at the "animal equality" mindset as not one which loves animals, but one who for some reason has a sociopathic hatred/disconnect of and with people. Anyone who says they consider the life of an animal equal to the life of a human being doesn't hold a high opinion of animals, instead they merely don't feel any spiritual connection to other humans. Can you really look at a rabbit, and feel the same connection with it that you would a small child? Do you really feel its life is as valuable as that boy's life? Really?
I can't take a neutral stance on vegetarianism. I don't support it. I think it is a mentally and physically unhealthy lifestyle. It is not only a nutritionally inadequate lifestyle most of the time, but mentally it encourages this isolationist, unempathetic, detached, borderline sociopathic view of other humans.

(PLEASE note I am NOT talking about the kinds of vegetarians who think the way we slaughter is needlessly cruel and that is why they don't consume mass-produced meat... I am talking about the vegetarians who firmly believe the lives of animals are the same as the lives of other people.)

[deneen]

Yes, I do have some mixed feelings about eating meat and being on Atkin's, but that is because it is my own personal preference and my own feelings. I was a vegetarian for years and actually just started eating poultry again about 2.5 years ago. And I have a number of reasons why I don't eat meat, but I don't judge other people that do.

My dad and my brother hunt deer every fall (grew up on northwest Wisconsin), and that is a normal part of life there. And they hunt legally, with licenses, never let their deer suffer, and eat all of the meat that comes on that animal. It is normal in WI to receive venison sausage for the holidays from friends and relatives. Do we all eat it? No. But it's not as if my dad and brother are hunting just for sport. I don't judge them for their practices.

My husband eats all meat and about once a week (usually while gnawing on a pork chop), he will bring up the subject of cruelty to animals and guilt about eating meat. We always come to the same conclusion. Our society and economy are based on eating meat. It's normal here. And if we buy organic, free range, local, etc. as often as we can, then we are not adding to the problems of those farms/ranches that are cruel to animals.

And to add one more point...yes, PETA does do research. They research and research until they can find the most horrid examples known to earth and show them as fact and normalcy. I respect the ideas that PETA brings about, but I am not a fan of how they only show extreme examples. Shock factor brings about curious people though, so for the most part, it's just part of their marketing.

*steps off soapbox*

~Kelly Deneen :)

[DEM]

Spiecies favoring their own, thats obvious. However, killing for the sake of killing has nothing to do with anything, people hunt not just to thin herds. You would rather animals didnt have predatory instincts if they were around YOU or your family, but its ok for us the have predatory instincts to kill for enjoyment? Meat eating isnt going to stop and I never said it should, but An animal is entitled to a decent life even if they are goign to be slaughtered. Patently ridiculous or not. If you were in captivity and knew death was imminent(I can think of a few times humans have been in that situation)you would still want a decent life until you were put to death. Its a joke to try and even put forth the notion that animals are in anyway given anything close to equality compared to humans so I dont understand that part of your argument.

As for PETA, what should they be finding? What is non-extreme animal cruelty? When they do a report on say meat packing, they give specifics on what happened at each place they went, and name that place, on top of backing it up with video and photos. How is that digging to find the worst thing they possibly can? If its bad its bad.

[DEM]

As for a connection with animals. Your view of it is a little backwards in my eyes. I look at an animal and see life, not some weird idea of hating humans. I think maybe its people that dont care for animals that enjoy holding the power of life and death over something. They cant hold that power over humans so they feel powerful holding it over something else. It gives a sense of power to be able to kill an animal, when that person is powerless in the world of their peers. That doesnt apply to everyone, but it applies to alot of people. So if your idea of people that think animals lives are worth something means they dislike humans, I guess mine isnt to far off either.

Humane treatment for animals is a small price to pay. And you guys keep saying you are for humane treatment but who is going to even begin to try and enforce it? The government hasent/wont. Organizations like PETA atleast try and expose it. What has peta ever done to any of you? When has any of its efforts ever hampered anything in your life? It hasent. They are fighting for good treatment for animals. Just because you dont like what they have to say doesnt mean it effects you in any way.

[Lisa N]

You would rather animals didnt have predatory instincts if they were around YOU or your family

Correct. The difference is that the predatory animal isn't holding a debate with its pack on whether or not it would be moral to kill and eat us. :rolleyes:

[DEM]

We dont seem to be having much of one either Lisa, we kill animals nonstop round the clock, so morals and debates dont seem to make us any better when it comes to killing then animals. There are plenty of crazy humans out there that would walk by and stab someone in the face without thinking about it.

[WeeOne]

As for eating dairy supports the veal industry. Well if I were you I would look into the numbers. A hell of a lot of dairy cows, when no longer useful end up as meat on your table. (quoted from DEM)

DEM - I'm staying out of this for the most part since I was partly raised on a dairy farm, my DH and I own a Feed Store, my DH rodeos and is an avid hunter so obviously my views are quite different. Maybe this sounds harsh but I don't think twice before eating any meat but to each their own.

I'm confused about your statement that I copied above. What do you think that they should do with the cows when they no longer produce milk? If we didn't butcher them I guess we could put thousands of cows out to pasture for years and years to die of disease and old age. If this were to happen the farmers would be paying through the nose for the land to keep these cows eating and drinking until they die of natural causes. Not to mention the vet bills if they get hurt or sick. The price of milk would literally sky rocket, cheese would be only for the rich! Butchering these dairy cows is no different than controlling the environment with wild game hunting if you drink milk, yogurt, cheese etc. Now for the vegetarians that don't eat these things they would have more of a valid point.

I can see how one would think that by drinking milk you are supporting the veal industry. I'm sure stuff like this happens on some farms, but on our dairy farm our cows were not put back on the machines until their calves were weened.

Don't get me wrong I have no problem with people not eating meat because of their beliefs or because they just plain think it's wrong. I'm glad I'm not fighting this issue with myself as you are. I have a hard enough time worrying about what I eat as it is.

RD64, DH would love to come stay in your parts for hunting season! You are also so right about how much money is donated and raised to help the environment of wild animals. My DH belongs to Ducks Unlimited and the amount of money that is raised at their auctions for their habitat is incredible!

Wee

[DEM]

I didnt have a special point WeeOne, you brought it up. My point was cows, and their calves from dairy farms ARE sold for slaughter. If a meat company gets veal from a dairy farm, the dairy farm is helping the veal industry. Maybe not every farm does it, but a lot do. I was never talking about the right or wrong of slaughtering dairy cows, just that it does happen and was very relevant to the comment made about the dairy industry and veal.

I am just talking about complicity here. I dont care if its animals or not, its just the fact that if they provide the very product that the other company needs, their is a link between them. If I had a dead body that someone I knew had killed, I wouldent be able to say well just because I have it doesnt mean I killed him, while this is true, I still played a vital role in the whole affair. That applies to anything, not just this particular topic.

[DEM]

I applaud that you guys and everyone else donates money to save wild animals and their habitats, but I have a sneaking suspision its so you will still have animals to kill next year :D

But its better then it used to be. Everyone can look back and see what human hunting as done to our environment, buffalo is a good example. Atleast its more responsible now.

[WeeOne]

The point I brought up was to the person that thought that the calves were suffering because humans were drinking it's milk instead of them. That is not always the case. We weened our calves for 3 to 4 weeks before putting them on a replacer. Some do it within 24 hours, that is enough time "even in puppies and kittens with proper care" to get the essential nutrients needed to live a healthy life. I know I have raised 1 day old stray kittens and puppies. I understand that one may think that drinking milk and eating cheese supports the veal industry since the male offspring of dairy cows can sometimes be sold as veal. Our dairy farm raised it's male offspring as beef cows or bulls for breeding. I realize other farms don't always do this but if someone wanted to continue eating dairy they could find out if the dairy that they buy their products from does this.

What I was trying to ask you was what you think we should do with the dairy cows once they stop producing milk. You stated that they are also put on our dinner tables. I just don't know what else we would do with them if we didn't butcher them.

You are correct about the money that is raised but also a large portion of it is to clean the land that non-hunters have thrashed by leaving trash, burning timber and such.

Wee

[ItsTheWooo]

Spiecies favoring their own, thats obvious. However, killing for the sake of killing has nothing to do with anything, people hunt not just to thin herds.

I don't agree with killing for sport, I think if an animal is killed it should be used. I also believe most hunters hunt to use what they kill... they eat it and wear it. Besides, I would sooner support the swift shooting death of a deer who lived his life in the wild, than I would raising a chicken in a cage for food.

My point is this. Predators are not only a natural part of life, but a needed part of life. PETA doesn't recognize the global need for predators, and they see human predators (no matter how responsible and humane) as doing something "cruel" and "selfish". Vegetarianism is out of sync with nature. If PETA had their way cats would be fed vegan diets and nothing would ever be killed for whatever reason. I find it so ironic that if their dream to preserve life were ever actualized, all they ensure is the hasty demise of most every species and a steady retrogression of life on earth back to the level of primordial slime.

Imagine a stack of blocks, each block is dependant on the one that is lower than itself for support. If you pull one of the lower blocks, everything on the top not only collapses, but this collapse also triggers the fall of all blocks on the bottom. Life and the foodchain is a lot like that. Each species is stacked on each other, the dominant predatory species keeps the lower ones in check, and in turn the lower species support the dominant species with fuel. Nature is a delicate balance, and predators are an intrinsic part of maintaining that balance. Eliminating predatory practices would have an effect similar to eliminating producers.

You would rather animals didn't have predatory instincts if they were around YOU or your family, but its ok for us the have predatory instincts to kill for enjoyment?

It is REALLY a stretch to compare animals raising/using humans for food to humans raising/using animals for food.

You seem to equate the life and feelings of animals with the life and feelings of human beings. I don't understand this comparison. Sure, animals have emotions, but do you really believe they are as sophisticated as the emotions of people? Does any organism with a nervous system deserve equal treatment to humans? Where does this end... should we outlaw abortion too since the fetus has a primitive nervous system? Come on, you and I both know this is ridiculous.

The human nervous system is so much more complex than any other animals... humans are capable of feeling not only momentary pleasure/pain, but we also feel anxiety and doom for the future. A human being is capable of understanding the gravity of his or her situation and it's implications on the future (well MOST of us do anyway :D), whereas an animal lives exclusively in the here and now. While an animal may feel momentary pain when their neck is severed, they didn't spend their lives living in fear of "slaughter day". A human being would, because our nervous system is that much more sophisticated.

It is because of this that I really can't see a comparison between humans raising animals for food, and an animal doing the same to a human.

Although this does encroach on a related topic of interest for me. What if we weren't the highest on the food chain? Say, if aliens from another galaxy colonized earth... what if these beings had nervous systems so much more advanced than ours, that they were not only capable of expressing themselves and communicating in ways we can only dream of (i.e. telepathy), but they also could experience some sensations that were unthinkable to the human mind. It is possible these sophisticated beings would look at us as we look at animals. Our primitive methods of communication and experiencing emotion would make it impossible for them to relate to us. Would this lack of ability to relate to humans result in them treating us as we treat animals, or would they be able to understand that we have meaningful emotional lives and feel terror, fear, dread, and anxiety over the future just as they do?

I think a lot of vegitarians think animals just aren't understood by humans, like humans aren't understood but my hypothetical aliens. In other words, animals are conscious enough to make killing them wrong. I disagree, but it is worth considering.


Meat eating isn't going to stop and I never said it should, but An animal is entitled to a decent life even if they are going to be slaughtered. Patently ridiculous or not.

I agree. An animal should not be made to feel any pain that is preventable.
If you were in captivity and knew death was imminent(I can think of a few times humans have been in that situation)you would still want a decent life until you were put to death.
SLOW down there ;).

That's the rub. You said "if you were in captivity and knew death was imminent"... that is a big if. Animals have no concept of the future, they have no idea they are being raised for food. This is exactly why we as humans have deemed it acceptable to raise animals for food. It is assumed the pain of being a slaughter animal begins and ends with slaughter. If animals had human nervous systems, they would spend their entire lives in a state of misery. Fortunately they do not.

Its a joke to try and even put forth the notion that animals are in anyway given anything close to equality compared to humans so I don't understand that part of your argument.

No, but that is the goal of PETA and many vegetarians.

As for PETA, what should they be finding? What is non-extreme animal cruelty? When they do a report on say meat packing, they give specifics on what happened at each place they went, and name that place, on top of backing it up with video and photos. How is that digging to find the worst thing they possibly can? If its bad its bad.

Easy. Focus on what they want to focus on, ignore what they want to ignore, no matter how obscene the truth is actually distorted. It's not all that dissimilar to how PETA front organization PCRM ignores the millions of people who had their lives saved or improved by atkins, and instead focuses on the one or two cases where people claim to have been made sick or died from it.

I have no doubt that animal cruelty has happened at slaughter houses. What I am saying is, I have a strong doubt that being excessively cruel to animals is the norm. THis is just as I believe that though some people may get sick and die on atkins, 99.99% of people will not (unlike what PCRM expects us to believe).

PETA isn't concerned with research, it is concerned with propaganda, period. It isn't concerned with research and reality, because they know their position is ultimately a frivolous one. They need to sell vegetarianism, because logic alone won't cut it. Their propaganda is so blatant and irresponsible too. I saw a PETA video a few days ago, of a man stomping on a piglet, bashing it with a rod... it was absolutely horrible. Yes, I felt terrible watching it. It was a disturbing video. Do they expect me to believe pigs are ritually killed like this? WHY on earth would they? Even if these ranchers were animals who didn't care about the pain of the creatures, it would be so much more time/cost efficient to just put it down with a bullet or tool, rather than torture the little thing for an hour.

[LadyBelle]

Yes it is more responsible. One of the main reasons is bison farms that activly breed the animals. They support the cost of this by selling products such as buffalo meat. Which by the way is not only tasty, it is an extreamly high protien and iron food :)

I think one point that everyone on here seems to be agreeing about is the fact that animal cruelty is not acceptable regardless if it's a pet or livestock.

[DEM]

I find buffalo way to salty, or tangy not sure which :). My point was that PETA regardless of if you like them or not, does the research. They dont believe in killing animals so nothing they find is going to be good about the meat industry. They say its bad, it doesnt mean you have to agree. They believe something and show people. What happens at slaughter houses isnt made up, it happens and they try and prove that something bad is happening and back it up with proof that they find. Hunting organizations who have no love for PETA talk about their views but to those people its not propaganda, its a two way street. I dont care if PETA is against the Atkins diet, I am still on it. I dont have to agree with everything a group says to know I tend to side with that group. I agree they go overboard on some things but can anyone name one interest group that hasent?

Just because cows dont know they are going to die doesnt mean they dont know if their lives are in a crappy condition or not. That was what I was getting at. Even if you KNEW you were going to die(which humans can) you would still want to live in decent conditions until it happened. Cows on top of not knowing the fate that awaits them yearn for a live in good conditions. So regardless of if the end is known or not. Living beings want conditions they consider livable.

PETA wants that for animals, I dont blame them. They overstep on purpose, most groups do. You go for all and hope for some. Animals are never going to get equal rights. peta isnt trying to get them HUMAN rights, but rights to a real life. You arnt going to get arrested for sexualy assaulting a cow..well, yeah you are but not for the cows sake.) People are overexagerating what exactly they say PETA is trying to do(You would swear PETA is trying to come into peoples houses and attack them with sticks for eating meat). Maybe they want meat eating stopped(I eat meat so I cant say I support them 100% otherwise I would be a hypocrit) but then again thats their right, and I really wouldent worry about it happening beacuse it wont. I take the good with the bad. They fight an unwinable fight when it comes to stopping meat eating but they are fighting a winable fight when it comes to helping animals and I am behind that completely. And they dont just sell vegetarianism. They are an animal rights group. Vegetarianism just happens to be one of their fronts.

As for the piglet, That kind of thing happens at a lot of slaughter houses. It obviously happens in numerous places otherwise they wouldent find it everywhere they go. And if they do find it that means it does happen, even if they were digging for it. They sure arnt doing it and saying someone else is. Its NOT ok if this happens at all.

[bekkers]

I have a friend who is a vegan, but for ethical reasons allows himself freerange meat. I think that if you have a problem with animal cruelty, you could just stop eating animals that have been treated badly. Otherwise, there is no reason you can't continue this diet without ANY meat, just substitute tofu.

[DEM]

Id love to, I eat it sometimes but not nearly enough. Stuff is expensive and if I could afford to eat it all the time I would.

And just so you all know. I am not saying you support or condone animal cruelty, I am just talking about my view points on it.

[RD64]

Weeone, Your husband wold love hunting in Pa. We have so much public land for hunting here is like paradise. Some of my hunting liscence money goes to buying up land here for gamelands plus we have 1 million plus acres of the Allegheny National Forest. You mentioned ducks unlimited. Thats a great conservation group who has contributed so much to waterfowl all across the US. Another group that deserves praise is the wild turkey federation. They have been huge in the comeback of wild turkeys all over the USA. Our game commisiion here does a great job of keeping the deer herd healthy. I'm proud of how sportsman have greatly contributed to the conservation of wild life.

[potatofree]

Why do PETA members fling buckets of paint at rich old women wearing fur, but not harass Hell's Angels for wearing leather? (Seen on a bumper sticker)

I've gone back and forth about animal rights over the years. One of my earlier jobs as a child on the farm was chasing the headless chickens to keep them out of the tall grass during butchering time. They'll run around for several minutes that way. How much do you suppose they actually rationalize their fate when it takes them several minutes to even realize they've been decapitated?

Sorry to be gross, but it illustrates my point that animals are sometimes credited with way too much awareness and human-like emotion and resoning, IMO.

Bob Barker once said in an interview that we shouldn't eat eggs since they were "stolen young" of the chicken, or milk, since it was for the calves. Add to that the people saying we should boycott certain fruit and vegetable farms who use illegal migrant workers, and some factions around this area who want to shut down "corporate farms" that are "taking over the midwest"...I'm getting hungry already.

Another thing I find interesting is our aversion to eating certain species when in other cultures, it's acceptable. Horse and dog are staples in some countries, but you wouldn't catch ME eating them!!!

[Porcellino]

that bumper sticker is very funny <snicker>

[quote]And you guys keep saying you are for humane treatment but who is going to even begin to try and enforce it? The government hasent/wont.[quote]

That is why I vote with my wallet and buy organic free range meat (except for those delicious nitrate free smoked chicken breasts from Trader Joe's). I do not support a company if I have seen evidence that they mistreat their animals on large feedlots. Granted, I have my own standards of what that means.

This society is in a unique position of choice that our ancestors did not have the luxury of enjoying. Getting the meat from the supermarket takes a big burden off of us having to go out back and slaughter a cow. My mother, as a girl, would have to help her mother wring the chicken's neck and clean it, or there was no dinner. She grew up in a rural town in Switzerland and there were no supermarkets or any other stores - they raised all of their own food from eggs to chicken, pigs etc. Now, we have stores that carry produce from around the world. It is easier nutritionally to be a vegetarian now, with so many products and produce choices available. If my mother would have wanted to be a vegetarian in the 1940's in postwar Europe, she would have had to eat weeds. My point is (and I do have one) is that it is the luxury of this country that we have the availability of choice. These choices have given rise to a moral and political argument about eating meat that simply did not exist until recently (I mean as an argument that received mass attention, I understand that vegetarianism existed before this generation). I think it is all part of a general evolution - it will be interesting to see where it all goes. I do not see people never eating meat again, but I think the general standards of meat production will improve.

[orchidday]

I don't think that DEM is advocating that we all be vegetarians or that killing animals for our needs is wrong. That being said, I don't think any rational person can believe that animals are not mistreated and abused in the name of saving money. I grew up in Colorado and my extended family had a very large ranch. They geld cattle without anesthetics as well as dehorning them without anesthetics and animals suffer a great deal.

I am not a vegetarian, I think we need meat to be healthy. But that does not mean that we cannot insist that more humane farming and ranching practices be utilized. I have been around a lot of feedlots and cattle DO know what is coming. They often break lose and trample other cattle and people out of their fear. They cry and scream when the blow to the head does not take the first time. I am just saying, as I believe DEM is, that there are more humane methods and we don't use them.

We also cannot ignore the fact that working in a feedlot and butchering animals is one of the most dangerous occupations that one can be employed in. Both psychologically and physically, this is a bad bad line of work. It is very dangerous and the men do experience problems dealing with what they are doing.

PETA may exploit a lot of things but they do not make these films up out of nowhere. It happens a lot, and you cannot believe that these are just isolated incidents. I have seen cattle and horses drug by chains after a pickup. I have seen the condition that cattle arrive in after being shipped in a crowded truck and have trampled each other.

To say that these animals are less sophisticated emotionally than we are does not mean that they do not know fear and pain. They certainly do, and you can see it with your own eyes should you ever watch it.

We eat meat, but that does not mean we cannot be activists for change in how these things are done. Consumers will ultimately decide how slaughter and animal husbandry is conducted.

You might want to read Upton Sinclairs's novel "The Jungle" that covers the history of the meatpacking trade. Not a pretty read. But an accurate one.

Orchid

[DEM]

I have no sympathy for rich old woman wearing fur. There is a difference between fur and and leather and you know that as well as I do, so lets not try and make that into an argument. Leather comes from cows already killed for food atleast here I can say they arnt being wasteful, use everything if you are going to kill something. Fur animals (mynx, fox, rabbit, etc) are killed soley for their fur, their bodies are thrown in piles and burned. And to get the fur? anal or genital electrocution until they die. The fur industry is a waste of natural resources and completely and utterly useless in a modern society.

I cant understand your reasoning between a chicken having its head cut off and its body running around equated to its understanding of things. If you had your head cut off your body would twitch for several seconds to minutes read up on it. Your eyes also look around and you would responed to voice commands such as "look at me" for 15 seconds or more. All facts of a human having their head cut off, not pretty but true. What is it caused from? the nerves reacting to being severed from their boss(the brain) and they malfunction until they die. Just like chickens, cows...everything with a brain. Its science not speculation. What are you basing your conclusions on that we give animals to much credit?. What is it that makes you think animals get to much credit in the smarts department? I cant imagine its speech...Birds with a brain the size of a peanut are capable of learning to talk...cant be that we are self-aware. Every living thing is self-aware. If they werent they wouldent try and save their own lives when danger came, if its instinct, then thats the only reason we do it too.

People will always eat meat. But the animals destined to be killed should be shown respect and kindness while alive.

[DaddioM]

Hey DEM,

If you eat a predetor from time to time, then you're actually saving animals.

Just a thought....

[RD64]

I'm telling you peta is a radical organization who will break the law to get their point across. If any peta member were to throw paint on any fur my girlfriend had I'd drag you to court and make you replace it with another fur, real fur. These groups are way out there in their logic and are so extreme their ridiculous. They are 100% against anyone eating any meat, period, and there is no reasoning. They think fishing is bad because of fish hooks or milking a cow is cruel. I tend to agree with the previous poster who said that they are putting animals on an equal or higher pedalstole than humans which shows for some reason they have a problem with people thats deeper than being for animal rights.

[Grimalkin]

With all due respect, all this talk about the radical fringes of PETA isn't that helpful, I think we can all agree their platorm is extreme. One can agree with some of their principles but not all (actually, a LOT of their members feel this way too and are not militant vegans), nobody here is defending PETA 100% but just their own views that happen to be shared by this group. Let's not paint everyone who opposes animal cruelty with the PETA brush and judge their views by this.

As for hunting, I agree that in some places it is necessary to contol prey populations, but this is unfortunately because we have extirpated large predators in these areas and thus damaged the ecosystem. Here in the West there are efforts to reintroduce these predators in places, some sportspeople are excited and supportive of creating a more healthy and balanced wilderness, but sadly there are many who oppose this because they are concerned there will be fewer hunting tags available. Again, really can't lump these people into a single category, there're good and bad ones both as far as wilderness ecology is concerned.

[DEM]

RD you almost sound like the exact opposite of a crazy peta member. That doesnt bother me if somene ruined your friends fur. Not a personal thing but if someone did it I wouldent shed any tears and lets not try and trick everyone, if its not real fur no one is going to throw paint on it. It is very easy to tell real fur from fake fur. In my opinion I dont understand why anyone wears fur. For one is very cruel to animals. Two its wasteful. Three its expensive. And four, people that wear fur just look extremely stupid. The ones that say PETA is crazy and does nothing good at all obviously knows nothing about PETA, just what you have heard off hand. The NRA is nuts but you see people supportings them because they agree with SOME of what they say. If the NRA had its way people would be chipmunk hunting with ak47's. But people still become members.

No one has explained their reasoning as to why PETA is putting animals above humans because they fight for animal rights? Their are a bajillion human organizations out their, obviously an animal rights group is going to fight for animal rights. Wouldent help much to do things totally unrelated to animals. You can look at a cow and see it isnt haveing any fun when its getting milked. While you dont have to go through that because your a human its easy for you to say it doesnt matter if it hurts them or not because you have no earthly clue what it feels like. Should they have milk? sure. Should the cow be cared for as well as possible? yes.

And it does not matter that they are 100% against eating meat. You are eating plenty of meat, we all are. How is this a problem to you? I will use the NRA as an example again. They are 100% for everyone being able to own a gun, be able to take a gun home the second you buy it etc. They obviously cant have all of it, but they fight for it. A good example would be yesterday. They were fighting for a drop of the assault weapon ban(like anyone needs an assault weapon) and they didnt want the gun show loop hole closed. What is the difference?

[DEM]

If you eat a predator from time to time your not eating an animal that was ever going to be able to kill anything considering that it was probably raised on a farm for slaughter. And we, in the west atleast, dont eat many predators anyway. We eat mainly herd animals. We might eat predators once in a while but I cant think of many :)

[sixpence]

I saw a PETA video a few days ago, of a man stomping on a piglet, bashing it with a rod... it was absolutely horrible. Yes, I felt terrible watching it. It was a disturbing video. Do they expect me to believe pigs are ritually killed like this? WHY on earth would they? PeTA would have you believe that they are. The minority of these type of operations (more than likely located outside of U.S.) should not be used to characterize the majority. Charles Manson and Jeffrey Dahmer were cold-blooded murderers, therefore, all humans must be cold-blooded murderers.

Again, I respect them for holding true to their convictions, but they are radical in their approach. I don't have any convictions to eating meat, as well as others on this board, therefore our choice should be respected as well (not saying that we have been disrespected).

[bevbme]

Dem I really can't follow your arguments or why you are making them.

Be a vegetarian then you will be happy with your choice.

[DEM]

Bev you havent read the whole thread then. This thread started out as a question to other people that feel eating meat might not be the greatest choice but do anyway for atkins. Then it turned into a personal views playground on all sides. At this point its about animal cruelty and the original post has all but been forgotten. There is a difference between eating meat(my original post) and animal cruelty(what the whole topic has turned into). From your post I cant tell if you are able to tell the difference or not.

I have never been that keen on eating meat, and as I said I dont eat a lot of it even on atkins but you guys are not hearing me. The diet works so I will stay eating this elevated amount of meat for awhile until I get where I want to be. I have never disputed the fact that humans eat meat because obviously I eat meat as well. I just plan on trying a vegetarian diet AFTER I am finished because of the increased amount of meat I will have taken in on the diet. Sure I feel guilty but I am also human, and my urge to be skinny is greater then my urge to eat not meat at all. I am not a vegetarian right now, never have been but I would like to try it at some point.

They have found things such as that at almost all of the slaughterhouses they investigate. People that spend their lives killing things tend to be more odd then normal. PETA started because of things like that, not to create things such as that. If it only happened once in a blue moon PETA would not exist anymore. I doubt they are justifying their own existence by trying to find a few weirdos that hurt animals. It must be awful easy to find animal cruelty because they can find it a whole hell of a lot of places and have proof that they did. I cant say the same for people that say it doesnt happen on the scale that PETA says it does because on their side we are just supposed to take their word for it that it doesnt happen. PETA has the hard proof that it does.

[cls923]

DEM...
Its harder, but very possible to do Atkins and incorporate a vegitarian lifestyle...You might want to consider doing that so you don't have to feel "guilty" from time to time...You will have to be a little more creative thats all, but you can do it!!

[sixpence]

In all honesty, I think that PeTA has done some good in making the public aware of some of the practices (granted, there are some in the U.S. that have been exposed) in the meat for food & clothing industry. I think that there have been changes made under such pressure. Furthermore, I personally don't care for fur.
I actually ate veal on a cruise once, and did feel bad after I found out what it was...later that night by my wife, who opted for the steak. Besides, it didn't taste good at all.

[WeeOne]

I too agree that animals should be treated as humanely as possible while they are here. I have never heard of people beating pigs to death in order to slaughter them. Not that it doesn't happen, I'm sure it is not in the norm. For one it would take much longer than just shooting it. We raise pigs with a friend. He keeps them on his property. The procedure is to call a slaughtering service to shoot the pig, then deliver it to the butcher. I'm sure huge farms do the slaughtering themselves but I agree that beating the animals to death is inhumane and it should be stopped.

As for cows not being happy being milked, well on our dairy farm they seemed pretty content to me because they ate while they were being milked. When we went out to herd them in they all came running towards the parlor. This wasn't the only time they ate, they also graze all day long in the pasture. It is some what of a relief when they are milked since it takes a lot of pressure off of them. Just as when a human breast feeds or pumps. Does it "hurt" them, I really don't think so because if it did they would let you know because they would start to bawl.

DH and I have chickens, cows and horses at our home that have plenty of shelter and free room to roam. I can't tell if they are "happy". How do you tell if and chicken is "happy"? I know that they are taken care of well and get plenty of food, water and shelter so I can only assume that they are happy. Are they sad when I take their eggs? I don't think so, because they never really seem to care. I can tell when they are scared or feel threatened because they squak, cows and horses will kick or buck, but as for when they are happy, I just don't know. They don't wag their tales like dogs or purr like cats, they don't smile like humans. I just don't know how one can tell if a cow is happy or not, unhappy or threatened yes, but happy...I just don't think so.

RD64, DH also belongs to the wild turkey federation. Along with DU he also belongs to some other wildlife federation that covers like all wildlife, but I'm not sure of the name. We also donate all kinds of things to 4H and to the FFA at our local high school.

Wee

[DEM]

The example you used of the pig getting beaten. In that case most of them they would just beat it, not to kill it but for fun. The slaughter is something completely different. This is ongoing torture to the animal. Take a look at some video from a few pig farms. The pigs spend all day getting beat by hook sticks or numerous other nasty things.

And their is a difference between a local dairy farm and a corporate dairy farm. Corporate farms pump their cows so full of hormones they produce milk at an alarming rate and the suction machines suck VERY hard. Until you have heard a cow cry out in agony you wont understand what I am talking about. Its a horrible sound. Its very rare to see groups like PETA go after small farms or anythign of that nature because for the most part small farms tend to treat their animals a lot better seeing as their own personal buisness and life is involved with the wellbeing of the animals. On corporate farms employees have no ties besides a paycheck, they have no ties to the animals or anything personal riding on the success of the farm.

[WeeOne]

Well I guess it's good to know that all the meat I eat has come from an animal that was treated fairly. But as you know, meat is meat so those of us that eat it will always be looked down on by those that think that we shouldnt.

Wee

[RCFletcher]

Isn't it true that PETA kill all unwanted animals that are given to them to re-house or look after because basically as a militant vegitarian group they don't approve of people having pets?

[FrecklFluf]

I don't know about the killing thing (that would push them over the edge from "militant" to "hopelessly insane"), but yes, they don't think anyone should have pets/companion animals. I'm not sure how they think animals that have been domesticated for thousands of years would fare out in the wild.

[DEM]

Thats hilarious! I think you need to do some research before you even think something like that RCFletcher. What has PETA done that is even remotely "Militant"? Name one thing. You guys have been slinging around a lot of mud and not a single thing to back it up. To be militant you have to carry out violant acts. PETA does not. Their are militant animal rights groups out their but PETA isnt one of them. You dislike PETA because they dont think like you, seems only natural that that feeling is returned. Its a circle where everyone thinks they are right and the other side is wrong, but the other side thinks the same thing. I would be carful about throwing around the world militant.

And you are just making assumptions freckles. Do any of you even look into any of this when you say something? Peta has never said to relase your domesticated animals into the wild. They are against breeding, there is a big difference. I think people should be allowed to have pet as long as they are good to them. Doenst mean I am against peta's because they hold an opposite view then me on it. I am totally behind them when it comes to breeding though. They do not advocate people give their animals up to shelters because they shouldent have pets. They advocate good treatment for a pet if you have one. Your making one thing into something else. Maybe they feel it would be better if people didnt have pets(and that is most certinaly NOT all of them) but they dont kill any animals I am not even sure where a rumor like that even came from. If PETA put down any animal it would be for humane reasons.

[FrecklFluf]

Sure I feel guilty but I am also human, and my urge to be skinny is greater then my urge to eat not meat at all. DEM, I admire you for being honest enough to admit that you are doing something you feel is wrong for your own selfish reasons. That sounds like a backwards compliment, but it's not; people go against their own principles all the time and use rationalizations to make themselves feel better about it. But ...

If it only happened once in a blue moon PETA would not exist anymore. I doubt they are justifying their own existence by trying to find a few weirdos that hurt animals. It must be awful easy to find animal cruelty because they can find it a whole hell of a lot of places and have proof that they did. Do you honestly believe that the majority of farms, etc., beat their animals to death or cause them to live under very stressful conditions? Animals who are severely stressed are not healthy. Just like people, they get sick more quickly, die sooner, etc. I'm not saying that businesses are noble. Businesses are about making money, and sometimes they don't always do the right thing. However, the activities that PETA "exposes" have very little to do with legitimate businesses because cruelty doesn't offer much of a return.

I cant say the same for people that say it doesnt happen on the scale that PETA says it does because on their side we are just supposed to take their word for it that it doesnt happen.Here is where a dose of healthy cynicism would do you some good, DEM. Radical organizations such as PETA are generally helmed, not by moderates, but by the most radical members of their group. (I am not singling PETA out here, BTW. This will hold true for most organizations. You're never going to get Potato Growers of America—if there is such an organization—to admit that eating potatoes every day isn't really healthy, even though we know that to be true.) And people who radically believe in a cause generally can't be counted on to give you the whole truth.

[DEM]

PETA doesnt even say that it happens all the time everywhere thought Freckle so I am not sure what you are getting at but I think I understand it somewhat. Just because its not standard procedure to torture an animal a group like PETA shouldent exist to expose it if it does? I just dont agree with you about the radical part at all. They might do crazy things(never something like attacking a lab or anything of that nature) once in a while to get some attention to a cause but never is it anything radical such as hurting someone to get a point across.

[FrecklFluf]

To be militant you have to carry out violant acts.Not true, DEM. All militant means is "Having a combative character; aggressive, especially in the service of a cause: a militant political activist."

[DEM]

Thats not the context it was used in and we both know that but I will go with that. In that case every organization on earth is militant. The NRA, PETA, Any religious organization etc. So if thats the way it is in your mind I am all for it.

Every hunter that says they have a right to kill animals and eat them is just as militant as the ones that say you dont have that right?

Or even better, Every person that opposes PETA is obviously combative and aggresive in their opposition to what PETA does and believes so in turn must also be a militant.

[FrecklFluf]

Just because its not standard procedure to torture an animal a group like PETA shouldent exist to expose it if it does? I just dont agree with you about the radical part at all. They might do crazy things (never something like attacking a lab or anything of that nature) once in a while to get some attention to a cause but never is it anything radical such as hurting someone to get a point across.No, I think it's important to have watchdog groups. And I think that PETA has done some good. But PETA does support the more violent groups. PETA donated $1500 to the Earth Liberation Federation, which I believe is listed by the FBI as a terrorist organization. In fact, check out this quote from PETA spokesman Bruce Freidrich:
If we really believe that animals have the same right to be free from pain and suffering at our hands, then of course we're going to be blowing things up and smashing windows. … I think it's a great way to bring animal liberation, considering the level of suffering, the atrocities. I think it would be great if all of the fast-food outlets, slaughterhouses, these laboratories, and banks that fund them, exploded tomorrow.And no, not every organization is militant. PETA is "combative" and "aggressive." They are not directly violent, but they support violence.

I'm not saying that everyone who belongs to PETA is wrong. I think it's great that someone is trying to make humans accountable for the way we treat animals. What I'm saying is that as an organization, they are not balanced. The ASPCA, the Northshore League, and the American Humane Society are just a few examples of pro-animal groups that seem, to me, to be a bit more balanced.

[DEM]

Ok, I understand your point of view now. I will admit there are always going to be some people that are dangerous but it cant be used to portray an entire organization. I think I am done with this thread though because we are all going to have our opinions on it one way or another and this thread could go on into infinity otherwise. Its spiraled completely out of its original purpose. I think we can all agree on one thing. We believe what we believe and no amount of talking is gonna change that :)

[FrecklFluf]

Well, best of luck to you. Maybe you should try going veggie; I think you would feel better about yourself. You can't do Atkins as a vegan, but it wouldn't be too difficult if you were an ovo-lacto vegetarian (eggs and cheese) or a pescetarian (fish).

[ItsTheWooo]

However, the activities that PETA "exposes" have very little to do with legitimate businesses because cruelty doesn't offer much of a return.

Bingo.

They are concerned with the bottom line, and they will make more money if their meat and milk is rich and flavorful. A stressed animal is an unhappy animal. There is no monetary incentive to abuse animals or make them suffer. Not only does this slow down production but it makes for an inferior product. A quick death = more meat, faster. A slow, painful death = slower production of meat.

Does PETA care about logic and common sense and the truth? No, they do not. 90% of PETA's activities center on proliferating sensational propaganda.

You often hear rabid animal rights people compare the meat industry to the nazi holocaust. Well, last time I checked, concentration camp victims were extremely unhealthy and often died of diseases. If slaughter animals were treated the same way as people in the german concentration camps, they would not be fit for consumption at all. Not only would the muscles be tough and scrawny from all the stress and lack of fat, but the meat would be likely diseased.

You know, even the very fact that some of these animal rights wackos have the gall to compare a human genocide to the practice of raising in humane conditions a barely sentient cud-chewing cow for food, is enough evidence for me that these people are grappling with severe neurosis. I don't buy for a second that they really do care about the life of an animal like they would the life of another human... they view all life as equally worthless. For some reason or another vegetarians feel very little spiritual connection and loyalty to other humans. It's not that they value animals like normal people value humans, instead they just look at all life (including other humans) as equally unimportant and "there". Because they don't view people as special (as normal humans should), they just can't understand things regular people take for granted, such as why it is more morally wrong to kill a human than it is to kill a dog. This is a very scary prospect indead.

People are always surprised to learn adolf hitler was a vegetarian. I am not. I know that someone being vegetarian shows more that they are unempathetic, disillusioned, dispassionate, and do not value human life, more so than it shows they are compassionate people who value the lives of animals. I've noticed this "detachment" from human beings as an all too common trait in vegans. Even people who profess to really love animals, these people are usually instead using animals to replace what should be normal human relationships in their lives. Ever meet a man or a woman with 10 birds, 10 cats, but absolutely hates children and is usually a bit of a loner? It really is quite a common "disorder", using animals as a proxy to live out relationships/feelings you are incapable of expressing with other humans.

[DEM]

Woo, I worry about you. Vegetarians do not value human life?

"I know that someone being vegetarian shows more that they are unempathetic, disillusioned, dispassionate, and do not value human life"

You are rabidly anti-animal it seems, and just reading your posts should scare the bajesus out of people. You my friend are an extremist.

Do YOU know anything about the meat industry? And making things up in your head about what you THINK you know about it doesnt count. Peta gives me proof about animal cruelty, thats what they are looking for so it makes sense that that what their videos/literature would be about. They are their because of reports of animal cruelty not because they want to sit around make things up.

Just because an event included humans doesnt mean it cant be used to compare a similar even taking place elsewhere to non-humans. The word holocaust existed well before the nazi holocaust. I have 2 cats and a dog, and plenty of friends...whats your point? I know a few vegetarians that have no pets. I am not quite sure you even know what you are talking about. It sounds like you live in a little box.

[ItsTheWooo]

Woo, I worry about you. Vegetarians do not value human life?

"I know that someone being vegetarian shows more that they are unempathetic, disillusioned, dispassionate, and do not value human life"

You are rabidly anti-animal it seems, and just reading your posts should scare the bajesus out of people. You my friend are an extremist.

Do YOU know anything about the meat industry? if not then PETA's word means a lot more to me then yours.

Just because an event included humans doesnt mean it cant be used to compare a similar even taking place elsewhere to non-humans. The word holocaust existed well before the nazi holocaust. I have 2 cats and a dog, and plenty of friends...whats your point? I know a few vegetarians that have no pets. I am not quite sure you even know what you are talking about. It sounds like you live in a little box.
You know, dem, as much as I enjoy this little chat we are having, I am just going to have to exit the discussion before I say something I might regret.

[DEM]

Go for it. You wont bother me. Any thing to back up any of what you said would be great. I could care less if you call me names the whole time. Give me something that gives credence to anything you said. You know a mentaly disturbed person that has a lot of cats. That doesnt qualify you as a passer of judgement on vegetarians. And from your post I can tell you dont have any vegetarian friends so where do you get your information?

[FrecklFluf]

I know that someone being vegetarian shows more that they are unempathetic, disillusioned, dispassionate, and do not value human life, more so than it shows they are compassionate people who value the lives of animals.Woah, there. You're painting with a pretty broad brush. Yes, I think that people who value animals over humans are a little out of whack (just as I agree that PETA is definitely not a balanced and fair organization), but many people are vegetarians because they believe that all life, human included, is sacred. (I believe that too, to some extent, but "sacred" and "untouchable" are not the same thing, IMO.) Some people are vegetarians because they believe it's a healthier lifestyle. Some people are vegetarian for religious reasons.

I think it's fair to say that many vegetarians (vegans especially) who are very vocal about their lifestyle do seem to have issues with people, but I really don't think the majority are like that, just as the majority of omnivores don't "enjoy holding the power of life and death over something," as DEM claimed earlier. (Sorry, DEM, that one was a little over the top.)

[DEM]

No problem freckl but that comment was in response to the comment that some vegetarians somehow disvalued human life. My meaning was that if that was true then surely some people hunted becaue they enjoyed being able to hold life and death over something. If one is true so is the other. I might have been to broad when I stated it but I meant what was behind it. I dont go so far as to say they devalue animal life though, just that they might enjoy holding death over something.

But adolph hitler comparison..come on.

[FrecklFluf]

Ah, understood. Well, it's true that some vegetarians do not value human life. I doubt there are many, but I personally know at least one, and she can't be the only one who would prefer to see a human die rather than a cow.

I imagine you are right, also, and that there are a few people who get their jollies out of killing animals. I just don't think that's the majority of omnivores, or even hunters.

[DEM]

Granted, but Vegetarianism and not caring for humans are not mutually connected I dont believe and correctly stated by you neither is hunting and holding life and death over something. I know people that dislike humans just because they do, they arnt vegetarians. And I know people that enjoy seeing animals killed but dont hunt. I also know people that are vegetarians because they think its healthier. The point is there is a little of everything out there and when someone says one thing they need to take into account that most of the time there is a polar opposite of that type of person they are complaning about. If there is a person that loves animals and hates humans there is going ot be a person who hates animals and loves humans. There are going to be people that love humans and animals and people that hate both. No one looks at the big picture. Everything is a special interest. Guns, Animals, Religion, even the atkins diet. There are two sides to everything.

[FrecklFluf]

I know people that dislike humans just because they do, they arnt vegetarians. And I know people that enjoy seeing animals killed but dont hunt.You know some scary people, DEM. :D

[mem2]

DEM,
I agree with you and that is why I have done Atkins the vegetarian way, one reason. The longer I am vegetarian, the more I find it is right for me on so many levels. I have been vegetarian since 1985 and would not give it up. It works for me. Concentrating on non starchy vegetables, soy meat substitutes and cheese and nuts and seeds makes it work for me. I am sorry you are doing this and feeling guilty. I admire your sensativity to the suffering of creatures. I know refraining from taking flesh and eggs has a positive effect on my life as well as a positive effect on the environment. Best of luck in seeking what is best for you. Thanks for sharing how you feel.

[FrecklFluf]

mem2, thanks for your comments. May I ask why you consume dairy but not eggs?

[potatofree]

Hmmm.. whatever happened to "to each their own"? (Seeing the thread has been moved to the War Zone)

Okay, I'll be militant. I wouldn't become a vegetarian because I love animals. I'd do it because I hate vegetables.

<exit, stage left>

[FrecklFluf]

Okay, I'll be militant. I wouldn't become a vegetarian because I love animals. I'd do it because I hate vegetables.Ba dum pum.

[Porcellino]

[quote]For some reason or another vegetarians feel very little spiritual connection and loyalty to other humans. It's not that they value animals like normal people value humans, instead they just look at all life (including other humans) as equally unimportant and "there". Because they don't view people as special (as normal humans should), they just can't understand things regular people take for granted, such as why it is more morally wrong to kill a human than it is to kill a dog. This is a very scary prospect indead.

People are always surprised to learn adolf hitler was a vegetarian. I am not. I know that someone being vegetarian shows more that they are unempathetic, disillusioned, dispassionate, and do not value human life, more so than it shows they are compassionate people who value the lives of animals.[quote]

I almost fell off my chair reading this. During the roughly 5 years that I was a vegetarian, I went to many vegetarian events and gatherings. Some bordered on the militant, but mostly were social gatherings where the meals were vegetarian and the purpose was to socialize and connect with other vegetarians. I did not encounter the types of people that you mentioned, but I DID encounter many with the same narrowminded view point, except it was directed towards meat eaters - the point being that people who ate meat did not value life, that's why they 'ate the flesh of dead creatures'. Both points of view are totally ridiculous. How on earth can anyone judge if one values life or not by their diet? Harsh judgment is harsh judgment no matter what side it comes from.
P.S. It is a rumour that Hitler was a vegetarian, there are actually reports that his favorite food was a meat dish. He was known to be a very finicky man, with what he ate as well as sexually. You might want to do a little more research. Besides, you really think he wouldn't have commited the atrocities he did because he wouldn't eat a hot dog? I think he had some other serious issues going on.....:rolleyes:

[DEM]

Heh never said they were my friends freckl :D I just know a few nutjobs that would do something like that. No wonder I didnt know the thread wasent dead, it moved so my subscription died.

That was funny, thinking of someone being a vegetarian because they wanted to kill vegetables. Getting mad while they ate and all that.

The guy that thinks vegetarians are heartless people haters....I wonder if he happens to be extremely religious. This isnt a bash on religion or anything so lets not start that but I noticed the more extreme religious types tend to lean that way.

[Quinadal]

Why would I feel bad for eating meat? That's what the animals are for!

[DEM]

Really? So I can come eat your dog? Or cat? I wouldent but you get my point.

And no one said you shouldent eat meat. Almost all of us here do. So tell me what you have against vegetarians? Looking at those annoying little things in your sigunature says it all heh.

Maybe you should worry more about what you eat and less about what other people think and eat. If all of those graphics are true you seem to actually care that people are vegetarians. If vegetarians that tell people they shouldent eat meat annoy you then arnt you equally as annoying because you tell people they should eat meat? Thats a serious question.

[potatofree]

I try and "drive by" this thread, but I get sucked back in...lol.

I was just thinking, I should try an experiment. Much like SOME animal rights advocates picket and/or call for boycotts of parts of the meat industry, what if we low carbers all banded together and went out and spraypainted a few tractors during harvest this year?
Maybe carry signs that say "Wheat Kills" or get some naked celebrities to pose behind a nice brisket of beef?

(Note: this is inteded with tongue firmly in cheek)

[Paleoanth]

I haven't read most of this thread-afraid to.

Just wanted to tell ya Dem, I am also a vegetarian Atkins person. We are out there. I guess we are the fringe of the fringe.

[Quinadal]

Really? So I can come eat your dog? Or cat? I wouldent but you get my point.
You ARE aware that in some cultures people DO eat cats and dogs, right?


And no one said you shouldent eat meat. Almost all of us here do. So tell me what you have against vegetarians? Looking at those annoying little things in your sigunature says it all heh.

I happen to think that vegetarianism is ridiculous. It's an unnatural way of eating and unhealthy. But that's MY opinion and you did ask for my opinion.

[Paleoanth]

You ARE aware that in some cultures people DO eat cats and dogs, right?


I happen to think that vegetarianism is ridiculous. It's an unnatural way of eating and unhealthy. But that's MY opinion and you did ask for my opinion.

It really isn't necessarily unhealthy. You just have to be careful. I have been one for years and I just watch what I put in my mouth. I have found Atkins to be the best way for me to be vegetarian actually.

[JustForFun]

Maybe we should all calm down and play PenguinBall!! (http://www.yonkis.com/mediaflash/yeti_gore.htm)

Click on the Abominable Snowman to start the penguin down the ice slide. When he is in range...swing. :)

Great stress reliever...something some in here could use.
Edited to add: My personal "best" right now is 1052.2!:yay:

*No actual penguins were harmed in the making and/or playing of of this game. Real land mines, pointy clubs, spikes and Abominable Snowmen can cause serious injury. Please do not attempt this at/on your home, the zoo, the slide with your friend Billy, or your personal ice-shelf. In reality, penguins can't fly, walk funny, and are cute.*
;)

JFF:D

[Paleoanth]

Sick and wrong! Sick and wrong!

My best was 677.2 feet. I need some more practice.

[Grimalkin]

Horrifying! No wonder this world is so screwed-up.

734.4 ;)

[DEM]

I am aware that some cultures eat cats and dogs and I am wondering why you dont eat them, you seem like a pretty hardcore meat eater. Thats fine that you eat meat. No one asked you to feel bad so im not quite sure what your post was about. Just like you not feeling bad I am allowed to feel bad if I want. You not feeling bad doesnt affect me in anyway. If you dont like vegetarianism then dont be a vegetarian. Its pretty easy. I am just confused by your post.

I cant compare animals to grain though potatoe heh. It doesnt bleed when you stab it, it doesnt cry out in pain when you hurt it. That is one thing that no one can strip from animals(I am not saying you are trying) is the fact that they are alive and do feel pain.

[Quinadal]

Maybe carry signs that say "Wheat Kills" or get some naked celebrities to pose behind a nice brisket of beef?

Maybe Orlando Bloom holding just a hamburger! :p

[RCFletcher]

Quote:
I cant compare animals to grain though potatoe heh. It doesnt bleed when you stab it, it doesnt cry out in pain when you hurt it. That is one thing that no one can strip from animals(I am not saying you are trying) is the fact that they are alive and do feel pain.

How do you know what plants do and don't feel? How do you know they don't cry out? Just because you can't hear them. They certainly bleed...sap oozes out of a broken plant.

The truth is that in order to live you've got to kill. I don't see what difference it makes if the victim is animal or vegetable. It's going to give up it's life for me. I am grateful for this and I can bear any guilt this involves. The basic rule on this planet is to live something else dies and that's that.

[Paleoanth]

While plants do have stress responses (they emit a certain chemical when cut, for example), there is no current scientific evidence that plants feel pain in the way that humans define it. They don't have a central nervous system. There is no evidence of consciousness.

I think that the point that DEM was trying to make is that it is inconsistent to only eat certain animals based upon cultural standards. That is the reason I am a vegetarian. I don't feel like I should pick and choose which animals are OK to eat and which are not. Since I cannot roast my cat on a spit and eat him for dinner, I just choose to eat none. I don't have that problem with plants-the only thing that would stop me from eating a certain plant would be poison or a bad reaction to it.

If you are emotionally capable of eating any animal you are also being consistent.

[Quinadal]

I think that the point that DEM was trying to make is that it is inconsistent to only eat certain animals based upon cultural standards. That is the reason I am a vegetarian. I don't feel like I should pick and choose which animals are OK to eat and which are not. Since I cannot roast my cat on a spit and eat him for dinner, I just choose to eat none. I don't have that problem with plants-the only thing that would stop me from eating a certain plant would be poison or a bad reaction to it.

If you are emotionally capable of eating any animal you are also being consistent.That's a load of cow cookies.
If they sold cat or dog meat in the store, I'd try it. I happen to think cows and pigs are cute. I'd love to own a pig as a pet. Do I eat steak and pork chops? Of course I do!
Cows, chickens, turkeys, domesticated buffalo and pigs that are raised to be eaten have only ONE purpose- to be eaten. I'm not talking about going out and shooting a wild pig or buffalo, these animals are alive only because they are FOOD.

What about all the animals a vegetarian kills? Crops are planted in fields that small animals live in. Do you think the farmer goes and catches every mouse, mole, and other small animals that live in the field he's about to plow? NO, he just plows them under. So actually, vegetarians kill MORE animals than meat eaters per acre of land used.

[RCFletcher]

Quote:

If you are emotionally capable of eating any animal you are also being consistent.

If I went to a country where they ate dog I'd try it - cat too. I'd only draw the line at primates and humans. Primates are getting too near canibalism taboo thing for me.

Some people I know who go fishing as a sport think that fish don't feel pain either. The point I was making is that we don't know what and if plants think or feel because in a way they exist in their own universe and can't tell us.

I am an ex-vegitarian. I gave it up when I realised that we cause death whatever we eat.

I'm not knocking vegitarians here - I'm just saying that a certain measure of guilt comes with living because whatever you do you're going to kill something.

[adkpam]

I am an ex-vegitarian. I gave it up when I realised that we cause death whatever we eat.

That was the sticking point for me and vegetarianism...I love to read, and the glues holding all my beloved books together came from animal products.

The best thing for me to decide was to do what I can...animal rescue, supporting humane methods like cage-free eggs, stuff like that.

We all just do the best we can.

[Paleoanth]

That's a load of cow cookies.
If they sold cat or dog meat in the store, I'd try it.


Then you are not being inconsistent here.


I happen to think cows and pigs are cute. I'd love to own a pig as a pet. Do I eat steak and pork chops? Of course I do!
Cows, chickens, turkeys, domesticated buffalo and pigs that are raised to be eaten have only ONE purpose- to be eaten.

By people who decide to eat animals-that is their purpose, yes. Why does that make what I said a load of cow cookies? It has nothing to do with my post. However, choosing to make a pet of an animal and then not eating that animal just because it is your pet is inconsistent.

I'm not talking about going out and shooting a wild pig or buffalo, these animals are alive only because they are FOOD.

Why aren't you talking about going out and shooting something? Why does that make a difference? It shouldn't.

What about all the animals a vegetarian kills? Crops are planted in fields that small animals live in. Do you think the farmer goes and catches every mouse, mole, and other small animals that live in the field he's about to plow? NO, he just plows them under. So actually, vegetarians kill MORE animals than meat eaters per acre of land used.

I think you are misunderstanding me. I never said that eating animals was wrong. I simply stated that I decided to treat them all the same. Either eat them all or eat none-for me.

I like a spirited debate-it forces me to evaluate my thoughts and opens my eyes to other points of view. However, I don't think rudeness is necessary to make a point. If you cannot refrain from being rude to my posts (i.e. calling them a load of cow cookies) then my suggestion is to stick me on your ignore list.

[Paleoanth]

BTW, RC-

I agree-if I decided to go back to eating meat-I would most definately draw the line at primates and humans too. :)

[FrecklFluf]

I think that the point that DEM was trying to make is that it is inconsistent to only eat certain animals based upon cultural standards.That's an interesting point, and I agree—somewhat. Technically, if there is nothing wrong with eating cow, there is also nothing wrong with eating cat.

A few dissenting points, however: while many people eat meat and remain "normal," I would question the mental health of someone who would eat his cat. Not because he's eating a cat, mind you, but because he is crossing a mental boundary that most of us have.

Also, I think we have a sort of pact with animals to continue to treat them in the manner to which they have become accustomed. That is why I would not eat a dog or cat (in this country, anyway). We have domesticated them as companion animals. For the same reason, I would not release a dog or cat into the wild, nor would I attempt to keep a wild animal as a pet.

[Paleoanth]

A few dissenting points, however: while many people eat meat and remain "normal," I would question the mental health of someone who would eat his cat. Not because he's eating a cat, mind you, but because he is crossing a mental boundary that most of us have.

Also, I think we have a sort of pact with animals to continue to treat them in the manner to which they have become accustomed. That is why I would not eat a dog or cat (in this country, anyway). We have domesticated them as companion animals. For the same reason, I would not release a dog or cat into the wild, nor would I attempt to keep a wild animal as a pet.

Ah, interesting points! So, would you extend this to other animals that are kept as pets? Some people have cows and pigs as pets too. You could have a pet pig, but also have pigs raised for just eating purposes. Just curious.

I actually would never eat my cat-but I also cannot eat any cat-because of my cultural bias. I realize that it is a bias.

[Lisa N]

while many people eat meat and remain "normal," I would question the mental health of someone who would eat his cat. Not because he's eating a cat, mind you, but because he is crossing a mental boundary that most of us have.

I think you're making the mistake of assuming that the cultural influences we have here in the United Sates (ie we don't eat cats and dogs) apply universally. They don't. There are many peoples that have no such qualms about eating animals that we consider pets and companions, although I don't know of too many cultures that routinely eat cat, several routinely eat dog. To them, they are simply another source of food. In that sense, it has nothing to do with mental health, it's what is considered a food source in your society. In some societies, different bugs are considered food sources but we would be repulsed by them here; not because we consider it wrong to eat them, but simply because the thought of it turns our stomachs.

I never said that eating animals was wrong. I simply stated that I decided to treat them all the same. Either eat them all or eat none-for me.

I have to ask, is there a difference between refusing to eat an animal that has been killed for food and being okay with a lot of animals being killed in the name of agriculture and actively supporting that by buying and eating those products?
I see you as drawing the line at: "I will not eat an animal directly, but I will follow a vegetarian lifestyle and eat foods that invovled the killing of animals which is okay as long as I'm not eating the dead animal."
If you really want to treat all animals the same, ie not eat any food source that involved the killing of animals, you're quickly going to be reduced to very little food sources or having to grow your own to be sure that no animals were killed in the process.

[Paleoanth]

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I never said that eating animals was wrong. I simply stated that I decided to treat them all the same. Either eat them all or eat none-for me.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



I have to ask, is there a difference between refusing to eat an animal that has been killed for food and being okay with a lot of animals being killed in the name of agriculture and actively supporting that by buying and eating those products?
I see you as drawing the line at: "I will not eat an animal directly, but I will follow a vegetarian lifestyle and eat foods that invovled the killing of animals which is okay as long as I'm not eating the dead animal."
If you really want to treat all animals the same, ie not eat any food source that involved the killing of animals, you're quickly going to be reduced to very little food sources or having to grow your own to be sure that no animals were killed in the process.

That is a really excellent question and I am not sure I have a really great answer. I try (and sometimes fail) to choose companies that are either environmentally aware in order to avoid this as much as possible and/or deal with this by giving to charity organizations that support the environment. I do research companies that I buy both food and nonfood items from. You are right-the best of all possible solutions for me would be to grow my own. Or at the very least to buy from small co-ops. Probably my worst offense is that I am in love with coffee. Many animals and forested areas are extinguished in order to grow coffee.

I personally think that part of the whole problem that you addressed is that there are entirely too many people. But that is a whole nother can of worms.

[Nibby]

My issue is the factory farms. I grew up on a small farm and all the animals were grass/grain fed (cows) and grain/vegtable fed (pigs) our chickens were free range and the animals all had plenty of roaming room.
This sounds weird but they had a pretty good life even though they ended up on the table.
The eggs tasted so much better! I swear the stress on the chickens in those hell holes they factory farm them in make the eggs taste off.
Yesterday my husband decided to buy free range chicken eggs which were like 20 cents a peice but they tasted so much better, fresher and flavorful! I forgot the difference in taste from when I was growing up.
Same thing with meat, we now buy from smaller farms with grain and grass fed animals in a less stressful environment.
No none of this really address' the issues of killing and eating animals but I think its a better way of going about it. The animals have a better quality of life in these places as opposed to the "big guys" selling thier wares. Now that you can't process "downers" I think that is much better also since they are usually dragged with a hook alive into the slaughter house, its just disgusting.
No there is no nice way around eating meat but you can make better choices in where you buy your meat and eggs! If everyone did that I think the big companies would take notice to the loss in revenue.
Just my thoughts on this...
Nibby

[flynnlee]

well then, let's just eat nothing and be happy. no animals or plants killed, and we'd never have a problem with our waistline. seems like a good answer to me.

[FrecklFluf]

I think you're making the mistake of assuming that the cultural influences we have here in the United Sates (ie we don't eat cats and dogs) apply universally.No, but I should have specified that my remarks applied only to people living in the United States or cultures similar in attitudes toward cats and/or dogs. Of course if someone lived in a culture where that was not the case, my remarks do not apply.

[potatofree]

I had a pet chicken once. Even though the other 249 chickens got slaughtered that year, Grandpa was kind enough to give it to the lady down the road who kept laying hens. (And yes, we had visitation rights! ) Odd, since this was the same man who butchered the rabbits Dad and Uncle Bob had raised as kids, since they quit taking care of them...

I'm consistantly inconsistant with my meat choices. Sometimes if you don't know what you're eating, it's all good! I was tricked into eating rabbit, and liked it. Go to a "Wild Game Feed" during hunting season, and Lord KNOWS what you'll be eating, but with enough ketchup... :thup:

My rambling has no real point, here. I really respect people who can make the choice to not eat meat because of their philosophical beliefs. Aren't we fortunate to have the position of being able to pick and choose what foods we want to eat, instead of scraping and scrambling for survival like some are forced to?

[Paleoanth]

Oh definately. Believe me, I am well aware that I am very lucky to be in a position to be a vegetarian. The same way I am lucky to be able to have good clothing, a roof over my head and a computer.

[Quinadal]

I just can't understand why anyone would WANT to be a vegetarian. It's so unnatural.

[Ruralgurl]

Oh Gosh!
I just like to get to my chickens before the coyotes, mink, possum, hawks, owls, you catch my drift. My methods are much more pain free than theirs!
Oh yea! I keep them safe, warm, dry and well-fed! They live much longer and quite comfortable around the farm than they ever would in the WILD. Ever wonder why rabbits have so many babies??

Just my 2cents.

Oh and that screaming in the background? Its my neighbours cow, my how she carries on when she is looking for a BULL! :blush:

[DEM]

How so Quinadal? I am not trying to be rude but how do you know that it is unatural? We are Ominivores meaning we can sustain on meat and plants, or just meat(Well not really just meat) or just plants. You would be alot worse off in the health department eating nothing other then meat then you would nothing but vegetables. But it can be tried if you wanted to give it a whirl, I wouldent though :). If anything the only unatural way of eating for an Ominivore would be eating nothing but meat.

You can get almost everything your body needs from plants(Vegetables, Fruits, etc.). Not so with meat. That is why I came to my conclusion that being a vegetarian is a perfectly natural way of living. Why do you believe its unatural?

[lizwhip]

I believe that plants have feelings too. Just because they're not all cute and cuddly doesnt mean that they don't feel pain.

So lets all stop eating completely and we'll be much better people for it.

Liz

[Quinadal]

You would be alot worse off in the health department eating nothing other then meat then you would nothing but vegetables. But it can be tried if you wanted to give it a whirl, I wouldent though :). If anything the only unatural way of eating for an Ominivore would be eating nothing but meat.

That's a flat out lie. Many cultures, such as the Inuit, ate NO vegetables or fruit in their native diet. They were healthier than we are. No diabetes or heart problems, no dental problems either. Cancer was almost unheard of.

You can get almost everything your body needs from plants(Vegetables, Fruits, etc.). Not so with meat.
Another lie. B12 cannot be gotten on a wholly vegetarian diet. It ONLY comes from animal sources. That's why vegetarians and vegan diets cause birth defects.

BTW, I never said that I don't eat vegetables and fruit. I just eat small amounts. I DON'T eat any grains, beans, or starchy veggies like potatoes. Meat is VERY healthy and necessary to good health. If you claim it isn't, then you are deluding yourself. I've NEVER met a healthy vegetarian.

[DEM]

"Another lie. B12 cannot be gotten on a wholly vegetarian diet. It ONLY comes from animal sources. That's why vegetarians and vegan diets cause birth defects."

You conveniently left the almost from my quote in that explaination. So actually its not a lie. You really tried butchering my quotes in your explinations.

ME:
You can get almost everything your body needs from plants(Vegetables, Fruits, etc.). Not so with meat.

YOU:
Another lie. B12 cannot be gotten on a wholly vegetarian diet. It ONLY comes from animal sources. That's why vegetarians and vegan diets cause birth defects.

It seems to me you are using ONE thing(b12) to argue against my very valid point that you can get almost everything you need from plants and my other valid point that you cant get nearly all of that from meat. One thing(b12) does not give you everything that vegetables give you. Besides b12 and animal protiens what does meat give you that vegetables cant? I am sure there are probably a few things but go ahead and list them off to me.

I know plenty of healthy vegetarians and plenty of unhealthy big meat eaters. What is your point?

And I never said you didnt eat vegetables. If you would actually try and understand my posts you would know that. I said I find vegetarian diets much more natural then an all meat diet. Even though we are Omnivores we can survive on all vegetables and as you said meat can be done too(Inuits) but I really would like to see that on a large scale before I could even begin to believe it would work for the normal conditions human being.

You still havent given a single reason why being a vegetarian is unatrual by the way either. Oh wait, vegetarians have babies with birth defects. Lets hear somemore.

I am not a vegetarian but I dont feel like I am on the "meat" team just because I do eat meat. Just because someone thinks they know whats healthy doesnt mean the way other people eat is unhealthy.

If you claim that a human being cant live a healthy life as a vegetarian, then YOU are deluding yourself.

[DEM]

Ya know, I know plenty of people that eat crap loads of bad carbs and are pefectly healthy while to people like US its a terrible way to eat.

And like you said the Inuits eat all meats and live healthy lives but we all know that may very well kill other peoples. I know people that eat a vegetarian diet and feel better then they ever have. There are people on this board who claim to be vegetarians and they couldent handle it, it made them sick. That doesnt mean the vegetarian that is loving the vegetarian life is also going to get sick. A healthy diet is what keeps a person healthy, not some prescribed one size fits all way of eating. Meat is healthy for you, but you shouldent presume to know if its healthy for someone else. You will notice all my views on how people eat are opinions, and not put foward as fact. I make those opinions on what would be a natural and or unatural way of eating based on what plants provide my body(which is based on fact) and what meat provides my body(Also based on fact).

[Lisa N]

Besides b12 and animal protiens what does meat give you that vegetables cant? I am sure there are probably a few things but go ahead and list them off to me.

Well...since you asked:

Essential amino acids. Yes, you can get them through non-animal protein sources, but you have to be very careful in your combining and really know what you are doing to carry it off successfully. No need to combine with animal protein...you get them all.

Essential fatty acids. Again, possible to get them through non-animal protein sources, but again...difficult to do if you aren't careful.

B12; possible to get through plant sources, but studies are now showing that the B12 provided by plant sources is not absorbed nearly as well as that from animal sources so even if you are getting a good amount from plant sources, you could still wind up with a B12 deficiency.

Vitamin A; the body does not convert beta carotene to vitamin a very efficiently at all; even less well for those with gallbladder problems, hypothyroidism, diabetes or infants.

Zinc

Calcium (you also need vitamin D to absorb this properly..a fat soluble vitamin)

Saturated fat; needed for the proper absorption and utilization of many fat-soluble vitamins as well as for hormone production.

Cholesterol. Yes...your body needs this. So much so that if you don't consume enough through diet, it will make its own. The problem with this is that when it does, it's usually of the type you don't want more of; LDL cholesterol.

http://www.mercola.com/2000/apr/2/vegetarian_myths.htm

[Lisa N]

Ya know, I know plenty of people that eat crap loads of bad carbs and are pefectly healthy while to people like US its a terrible way to eat.

Yes...and I know people who have smoked for decades and not gotten lung cancer or COPD. Doesn't mean that it's a good idea for all of us to try it, though or proof that smoking really isn't that bad for you.
Just because you know some people who can seem to get away with bad eating habits for a time doesn't mean that they will get away with them for a lifetime. In fact, statistically, they won't; it's just a matter of how long it will be before the problems start to show up.

[DEM]

Thats just my point lisa. You cant tell me eating meat is a must for all people and that vegetarians cant live healthy lives. You know what I was talking about so I dont quite understand that last post. My point is you cant say eating meat is healthy for all people and being a vegetarian is unhealthy for all. Its a matter of fact that eating on the atkins diet can cause a hell of a lot of problems for people on it for a prolonged period of time if the science behind meat and the way it might effect some people is correct. That doesnt mean its bad for everyone.

I dont believe that "bad carbs" are bad for everyone maybe they are not great but they dont cause the same problems they do in others. The average person in this country eats like the next guy and sure there is a lot more obesity and its related health problems but there are also a lot of people that are perfectly healthy eating like that. There is no getting around that that is so.

[DEM]

There is no hard proof to back that up lisa. That it will catch up with ALL people. Bad carbs are in all mainstream food that we eat but my parents are getting on in age and they are fine, my older sister and her husband eat like any other American and are fine. A few of my friends have eaten like that their entires lives and are fine, fit as a fiddle. When people realize there is never going to be one way to eat that is healthy or unhleathy to all people we will make some headway. Atkins is not healthy for all people. Vegetarianism isnt healthy for all people. Just eating crap loads of meat isnt healthy for all people or unhealthy for all people. Atkins is a very very bad eating habit for some people so does that make it a bad habit for all? And we all know there are people out there that shouldent health-wise be on this diet.

People can list reasons why vegetarianism is bad but still cant dispute that their are perfectly healthy life long vegetarians out there. Plenty of them as a matter of fact. That right there blows any argument out of the water as to it being bad or unatural. If anyone that says meat is a must have in a diet and vegetarianism is bad for your health is correct then all vegetarians would be sickly dying people but that just isnt the way it is. But thats not to say that being a vegetarian would work for everyone either.

Mainstream doctors swear Atkins is a horrible way to eat. No one here believes that but who is right? Just because you lose weight doesnt mean its healthy just like a lot of low-carb supporters claim it was the high-carb/low-fat diet that was the real unhealthy one. Everyone has their reasons but plain and simple, some people are healthy on a high-carb diet and others like most of the people here are not. While some people can do the atkins diet like a breeze others feel like they are sick all the time. There are plenty of people posting how bad this diet makes them feel. No amount of proof on one way of eating is ever going to be right for everyone. Why dont people just worry about what they eat and keep themselves healthy and less about trying to prove their way or some certain way is the only healthy way to eat. I dont believe it works that way.

[irisda]

I tried to read through the first three pages of posts..then found it utterly ridiculous and came to the end to voice my opinion. if you dont like it dont do it. that sums it up.

[DEM]

Your telling me. I started a thread asking what other animal rights people felt about the diet. It was turned into something completely different because people wanted to tell me or everyone in general what is right and what is wrong.

This wasent a thread for those that dislike animal rights activists to come and spout their views or for animal rights activists to argue with the thread crashers about their views on animals just what they thought about being on this diet and how that related to their animal rights beliefs. But thats what happened and I know now not to start a topic relating to anything bordering on personal belief on this board again. Even if you are looking to talk to someone that believes what you believe someone that hears it and thinks your views on something are wrong or bad(Which the thread never was meant for, it was asking people that thought like me for feedback, not those that didnt.) will invariably try and tell you you are wrong even if that was never the purpose of the thread. And of course I got drawn into it just as everyone else did.

It turned into a animal rights activists are crazy and vegetarian is horrible thread, why? I have no idea.

[Nibby]

I agree with you, Atkins isn't for everyone! My husband who is slender went on Atkins with me sort of in support and his blood fat levels went sky high!! Mine are now almost normal because of the LCing. We were total opposite. He is now back on the carbs and doing much better.
I have a friend that is a vegan and seems healthy enough also. I guess its whatever way of eating is healthy for your body, I know other people who can't eat wheat products....everyone is different. I went to a potluck that was meat-free awhile back and WOW there was not much I could eat without going into a diabetic slumber and waking up feeling like I was on a week long drunk. I know I couldn't personally do it because of the diabetes there are so many grains, root vegtables, fruits that affect my glucose it would be impossible. I think ANY thread will attract a variety of people with different views and sometimes the point gets lost of the original post but its to be expected with so many people viewing these threads. Of course this is the Low-Carb War Zone *lol*
Nibby

[Paleoanth]

I just can't understand why anyone would WANT to be a vegetarian. It's so unnatural.

So is:

flying in a plane
driving a car
wearing clothes
monogamy
skating
pepperoni
television


Back to DEM's original question. Fortunately, I have been able to be on Atkins and maintain my vegetarianism-so there has been no conflicts for me. When the doctor first suggested Atkins to me, I was worried because I thought I was going to have to choose between being fat and eating vegetarian. I am very happy that this was not the case.

[DEM]

Yeah it did turn into a battlefield here nibby :) But the post was originaly somewhere else. It was moved here because it did turn into a warzone and the chance of finding the original meaning of the post was hopelessly lost due to people using the thread to push their point of views, everyone of us has done it and its exactly what it wasent supposed to be.

Good points paleo :D

[conbom]

Oh, where to start, where to start, oh, where to start?I'll start with the fairly ridiculous idea that there are some in the world that apologize to plants before they cut them down because as far as they are concerned "all is god and god is all." Sorry but I don't see an onion as God but rather see the wonder of His creation in the onion. There are others who don't kill animals because it may be their great-uncle living out his karma. Others wear masks so they don't inhale bugs and thus kill them. (My son had a classmate in 5th grade who felt bad for the plants as well as the animals and proclaimed that she would no longer eat any plant foods. When he asked her what she would eat she said tortilla chips! She had a very hard time understanding why he laughed so long and hard!)

We are omnivores and thus eat all things. If we had stayed with food in a more natural state we wouldn't be in the mess we are in individually and as a culture. We have divorced ourselves from food procurement and all of the energy that that entails and have stripped the food we do eat (or allowed it to be stripped for us) to allow for longer shelf life and therefor cheaper and more abundant food all while we sit on our duffs diddling keys and arguing about the right and wrong of eating animals and/or their by-products.

There are cultural biases all over the world in regards what to eat. The idea that we don't take kindly to eating dogs and cats doesn't mean that it is wrong to eat cows, pigs and sheep. (This may reveal some ignorance on my part but why, exactly, is eating veal and lamb so bad? Price is certainly an issue for me but what is your moral high ground that makes them off limits to you?) I don't eat jicama but I understand that it is eaten frequently in other parts of the world. So because I don't eat jicama does that mean that morally I shouldn't eat broccoli?

Meat has the advantage of being nutrient dense and to get the same amount of nutrients we would have to eat an awful lot of vegetation! Basically, we would have to eat practically nonstop to get the nutrients we need and would have to continually migrate to areas where the food was growing. Most nomadic tribes move for the sake of their animals not their own stomachs.

As far as I see it low carb makes a lot of sense because, when followed correctly, there is not a lot of wasted food which would seem a greater sin in a world of want. You eat a high protien breakfast, which usually includes a fair amount of fat for satiety(sp-it's late!) and are generally satisfied for several hours whereas coffee and a donut or bagel leaves you hungry in a couple of hours, if not sooner! And sugary cereal leaves you sleepy and unproductive. A lunch of salad and or veggie with a serving of meat, poultry or fish tides most people over til late afternoon when you may have a snack of nuts or some such to tide you over until dinner. Which again is some veggies and meat. Meat consumption tends to be self-limiting, esp. if you don't season your meat heavily which may cause you to overeat because of taste sensations rather than actual hunger. Actually it is the prepared foods that are denuded of nutrients only to have a select few put back in that are the greater crime against humanity and in the long run against the animals.

As you can tell by the beginning of my screed I am a believer in a creator God. I also believe that He actually didn't intend that we should eat meat but because of the great climate changes brought about by the Flood we could no longer depend on plant life for sustenence (sp-it's even later!) and so needed the nutrient dense meat to survive. And yes, to whoever it was who complained about us using weapons, we needed to use weapons outside of ourselves because we were not created with the teeth, claws or stomach that can handle getting the meat without them. It goes with our brains which it is far to late to get into right now but I may be back tomorrow.

In the meantime DEM, no I don't feel bad about EATING animals but having been raised in suburban NY I sure wouldn't want to have to kill my own! Heck, I couldn't even handle my own bandages when I had to have a fingernail removed--Oh, grooooss! Animals have their place in this world and on my plate is one of them--no octopus though, thank you very much!

I can understand your dilemma. Having been raised in a society that has some very mixed up priorities sometimes it is hard to find a balance in life. Just always remember..."You don't always get what you wa-ant...!" (Sung in that everlilting voice of M. Jaggar)

Connie

PS If this is overrambling, forgive me...it's late and I didn't get much sleep last night either!

[RCFletcher]

Octopus is delicious - you don't know what you are missing.

[conbom]

I've heard that they are rubbery and I tend to gag on rubbery things.

[Quinadal]

I LOVE octopus and squid.

[KimmyKat]

I have always thought that vegetarian is the way to go if you can do it. However, my thought now that I'm diabetic is that I'd rather eat animals than have my leg amputated or go blind or have a stroke or heart attack or....

[RockerChik]

Hi, DEM. I stumbled on this thread whilst defending PETA on another thread...boy - what a sh*t-load of responses vegetarianism kicks off in this forum, huh? Well, I guess it is to be expected.

Anyhow - yes - when I started low-carbing in 2003, my protein choices for this diet consisted of mostly soy products, eggs, cheese, fish and if I had any meat, it was turkey or chicken. (I'd been "off" red meat, pork, veal for many years already).

Well, after a couple of months, I simply could not shake feeling wrong about eating the turkey and chicken, so I weeded those out, too. It probably helped that I wasn't enjoying them, anyway. Chewing and swallowing ANY meat (the texture) has become unpleasant for me. I had to customize my own program, but what I have customized is working very well for me. I also incorporate legumes and brown rice here and there during the week, with no gain in weight resulting.

Less than a year ago, I was in chronic pain all the time. I was depressed. I had high blood pressure and low energy. Today, I continue to lose weight gradually. My BP medication has been cut in half and I foresee getting off it altogether by the time I reach my goal weight. I am virtually pain-free and I exercise every day. I am healthy and vibrant, strong and positive about my life. And I feel great about not needing to eat meat or even think about it.

[QuickFast]

good grief
Silly liberals
No mention of the thousands of animals killed every day for food by thier "natural" predators (other animals).
Its a fact of life.. you will never stop the slaughter of animals for food.. EVER!
btw.. fish is not a vegetable

[Paleoanth]

good grief
Silly liberals
No mention of the thousands of animals killed every day for food by thier "natural" predators (other animals).
Not the point.

Its a fact of life.. you will never stop the slaughter of animals for food.. EVER!
btw.. fish is not a vegetable
Again, not the point. I don't care what other people eat. I made a personal choice. Why do you or anyone else care what I eat? BTW, I don't eat fish either.

[QuickFast]

I didnt read the whole thread... I admit it.. I couldnt stomach it. regardless of what the point is, I see the typical liberal talking points.

[Paleoanth]

I didnt read the whole thread... I admit it.. I couldnt stomach it. regardless of what the point is, I see the typical liberal talking points.
You couldn't be bothered to read the whole thread.
You posted on a topic you cannot even stand.
You don't know what the point is and don't care.
Is that about right? Nice job.

[mem2]

We all have our choices. The more meateaters criticize mine the more I wonder if unconsciously they don't feel that mine is a better one.

[idontno]

ya know every thing we eat has had a life plants are alive just like animals.... just a lower form of life but plants do have a life.
what to eat? pass the water please, what theres some form of life in water...... good grif... confused hey got and ideal invite everyone over for supper yea we can graze over on the north 40 got lots nice rye grass coming up, prob piss the cows off oh well they can come too.:)
life is short have fun!

[buggblue]

Yah I'd say that is the downside to this diet. I'm a vegetarian but I have been thinking more and more about eating meat. If I do I am ONLY going to buy the free range, vege fed stuff. You don't need to beat yourself up over eating meat, just make good choices when you shop. ;)

[momoffour]

I wonder how many of you believe in abortion??? I had a friend years ago that was a vegetarian because she believed it was cruelty to animals, yet she had no problem taking the life of her unborn child.

[potatofree]

Then either she was a hypocrite, or subscribes to the theory that life begins at birth, not conception. In either case, the debate seems hot enough in places being just about animal rights without throwing abortion into the mix. :(

[steveed]

The plains indians loved animals too, they loved the buffalo and they ate the buffalo. You can love a thing and at the same time understand the process of life and the reality of life. Everything that lives dies. Get used to it, figure it out. Most vegetarians/vegans I know are in denial about death, like it's something unnatural and cruel. If we set all the livestock free, are we to open up a livestock retirement home on the range? I may have arguments with HOW we kill our food animals...it seems somehow demeaning and sad that we should be so spiritually removed from how we get our food. I think most of our meat processing practices are horrible. But that applies to alot of the experience of the modern world. We depend on unseen others. Yes, I have reservations about what is sacrificed in the name of expediency...but, we are omnivorous, and our health and survival depends on this fact. (BTW-I tried being a vegetarian for awhile, and I got mean and hostile. I guess I wasn't getting enough of the right nutrients and amino acids.) ;)

[gotbeer]

http://images.ibsys.com/2004/0428/3245648.jpg

CROMWELL, New Zealand -- Shrek the 9- year-old merino wether is photographed before he has his fleece shorn at the Golden Gate Lodge. Shrek's fleece is believed to be 6 years old after the animal was found on the Bendigo Station hilltops during a muster on April 15. (04/28/04 AP photo)

[tomsej]

.. what good is me not eating meat going to do? Absolutely nothing..

It takes a WHOLE lot of grain to turn out a 1lb of meat in an animal.

Guess what they use to FATTEN animals? Grains!

I was raised on a farm, so I have a hard time about animal "rights". Will an animal be grateful if you save them? I had many close calls with cows nearly taking my life. So you can understand when I don't have a lot of sympathy for a bossy with big pouty eyes.

I do agree that we can eat less meat - as a matter of fact, the most successful body-builders are lacto-ovo vegetarians.

Eggs and whey protein isolates are the best source of protein on the planet.

I actually eat LESS meat eating Atkins/Protein Power. I feel good about that.

I supplement with whey protein to ensure I get enough in my diet (I have a lean-body-mass off 155lbs, so I need A LOT of protein daily.)

I don't agree with cruelty towards animals. I always did my best to use more gentle methods in dealing with livestock. My father was cruel and used methods I don't want to discuss here - trust me, I was disgusted watching him deal with the cows when they didn't do what he wanted.

My personal view is that as long as the animal is slaughtered quiclky and as painlessly as possible, I don't have a problem with it.

I have problems with little tiny pens for veal calves to ensure "milky meat".

If the diet makes you feel bad - try to find ways to reduce your animal protein in your diet.

I would'nt suggest a LARGE amount of soy, but a few ounces a day is fine.

Do you enjoy seafood? Fish may be another option.

You may need to do some soul searching - however, if you are doing what you feel in your heart is right - go for it!

I always respect someone who stands up for their views. I may not agree with you in everything, but does that mean we have to live in conflict?

Good luck with your journey, feel free to post to my journal if you feel like.

Tom.

[adukart]

This is just me thinking as I read through this thread (not necessarily directed at DEM), I haven't gotten through it all, but the question that pops up in my head is (example):

Are we to believe that coyotes are cruel when they kill and eat a rabbit?

[TwilightZ]

This is just me thinking as I read through this thread (not necessarily directed at DEM), I haven't gotten through it all, but the question that pops up in my head is (example):

Are we to believe that coyotes are cruel when they kill and eat a rabbit?

No doubt a vegetarian would say that since humans are more advanced we should be more restrained... but on the other hand animals should have the same rights as humans. I was a vegetarian, a vegan, macrobiotic--been there, done that, and for both "ethical" and health reasons. But the difference is that since I am constantly seeking the truth, when I find I've been lied to, I move on. Michio Kushi was the guru of macrobiotics, which is essentially vegan eating with reasoning and order behind it. I thought he was very spiritual and had all the answers. Then his wife and daughter, both equally involved in the movement, died of cancer. Rather than coming clean, he downplayed their deaths and made excuses.

I have friends who are vegetarians--they are thin, but in poor health, and refuse to believe that their diet is killing them, probably because the lack of vitamin B12 has led to nerve and brain damage. I have women friends who still are vegetarians, even after losing a breast to cancer (one woman even prophylactically having the remaining one removed, as if it was the breast itself that was attacking her--she is still a veg.)

Somebody mentioned soy and protein powders. Soy has been found to be unhealthful, and protein powders are processed junk. Soy links:

http://www.westonaprice.org/soy/index.html
http://www.westonaprice.org/myths_truths/myths_truths_soy.html

Dr. Weston A. Price visited different societies around the world back in the '20s and '30s and discovered that the most healthy peoples were those that consumed the most meat and saturated fat. These peoples and cultures go back thousands of years--are they all cruel? No, they treat animals with compassion and raise them naturally, but still realize that they are animals.

You can be kind to animals by eating free range and organic. People who raise animals this way are sensitive to their living conditions and slaughter them as painlessly as possible.

Here are some links you may wish to check out:

http://www.westonaprice.org/myths_truths/myths_truths_vegetarianism.html
http://www.westonaprice.org/myths_truths/myths_truths_nutrition.html
http://www.second-opinions.co.uk/naiveveg.html
http://www.second-opinions.co.uk/carn_herb_comparison.html

Howard

[Frederick]

I was worried because I thought I was going to have to choose between being fat and eating vegetarian.

LMAO...Oh my, that must have been quite the conundrum?

[Paleoanth]

LMAO...Oh my, that must have been quite the conundrum?
Yup. Not any more, though. Glad to know I can do both.

Twilight are you saying that being a vegetarian caused the breast cancer? There is no reason you cannot be a healthy vegetarian as long as you pay attention-there are plenty of unhealthy omnivores out there too.

[MyJourney]

Here is an interesting interview about soy

http://www.t-mag.com/nation_articles/302poison.jsp

[potatofree]

11 pages later....I think I really understand what DEM was saying/asking.

Especially in a decision where there IS no absolute of right and wrong, just personal feeling and strong opinion, it would be difficult to go against one's own convictions for your own good. I'd imagine you feel like you can't win. If you eat meat because it's what your body seems to need, you feel like a traitor to yourself. Is that close?

I'd imagine it would be similar to how I'd feel (not to start the abortion debate here..) if they developed a successful therapy for my son's Cerebral Palsy out of fetal tissue. I'm dead-set against abortion, but would do whatever it took to get him to walk. Maybe that's a strong example, but I'd imagine someone concerned with the welfare of animals would feel a twinge of regret eating meat.

I don't mean to start a whole other debate, but rather bring it around to the original point again because I'm finally starting to "get it".

[tomsej]

Somebody mentioned soy and protein powders. Soy has been found to be unhealthful, and protein powders are processed junk. Soy links:

http://www.westonaprice.org/soy/index.html
http://www.westonaprice.org/myths_truths/myths_truths_soy.html

Howard

Howard,

Thanks for sharing your thoughts; yes, I mentioned soy. I also mentioned SMALL quantites as large amounts of soy in the diet can cause impairment with the thyroid gland.

As for whey protein isloates, I will disagree with you. I lost my father-in-law and mother-in-law to cancer and both of my parents have managed to survive cancer. They all were health-concious eaters.

I personally cannot eat a lot of meat - I ate tons when I first started Atkins. This is MY choice and MY opinion about whey protein isolates.

Will I die of cancer before I'm 60? My genetics say YES, very likely; however, I have to male choices that work for me. I want to enjoy my life and be as healthy as possible. I'm losing weight, feel great and can see 178 lbs as an attainable goal for the first time in my life.

I'm willing to take my chances with "processed junk" for now. I will read your links; I think having information is very useful in making good decisions.

I ate free-range as a child as I was raised on a farm. My parents eat free-range and have for ALL of their 76 years - they still got cancer.

My Dad is a type II diabetic because he likes sweets; my Mom does not like sweets so there were very few in the house.

There are no GUARANTEES - you have to make choices in life.

BTW, we have free range meats and eggs available -I will agree that TASTE ALONE is a huge motivator - if the kids and family will eat them then I'm happy!

Our plan is to move away from commercially processed meats - see, we can agree on something!

Tom.

[LondonIan]

Belatedly...that penguin link was disgusting. 805.1

2c worth: no one lives their lives to absolute moral principles. It isn't possible. There almost never perfect actions and rarely good solutions. We live a life of least bad actions. So - yes I eat meat, but am not fully comfortable with it. When the wallet's full, I eat free range. I try promote good, humane farming practices.

Let me throw yet ANOTHER spanner in the works. Consider the proposition that being tasty to humans can be an evolutionary survival strategy.
This doesn't apply to Hunter-gather societies (ask the mammoths and moas). But animals that humans take an interest in domesticating have vastly improved survival rates and numbers. Indeed we seem to be heading towards a VERY limited ecosystem, one totally dominated by meat animals and pets.

It has been suggested that if we were really concerned about protecting the existence of pandas and gorillas we should start farming them for meat on a commercial basis. Why do I raise this subject?

Merely to suggest that 'benefit' and 'humane' need to be qualified.

As to the health issues, if our history shows us anything it is our amazing adaptability to a range of environments andd food sources. I don't get too hung up about it.

Can't see where the hostility to vegetarians comes from - what's to disapprove of in that personal choice? (Of course, if someone was trying to FORCE the same choice on me...)

[Paleoanth]

Belatedly...that penguin link was disgusting. 805.1


Let me throw yet ANOTHER spanner in the works. Consider the proposition that being tasty to humans can be an evolutionary survival strategy.
This doesn't apply to Hunter-gather societies (ask the mammoths and giant awks). But animals that humans take an interest in domesticating have a vastly improved survival rates. Indeed we seem to be heading towards a VERY limited ecosystem, one totally dominated by meat animals and pets.

It has been suggested that if we were really concerned about protecting the existence of pandas and gorillas we should start farming them for meat on a commercial basis. Why do I raise this subject?

Merely to point out that 'benefit' and 'humane' need to be qualified.

As to the health issues, if our history shows us anything it is our amazing adaptability to a range of environments andd food sources. I don't get too hung up about it.
WOW, Ian-we are really going to disagree here. A lot.

Lots of animals that were tasty to humans went extinct or almost extinct because of us. Ask the buffalo. Ask the do do. Plus the fact unless you want to consider us Natural Selection, that isn't an evolutionary strategy anyway. Why do we define everything in terms of human use or human adaptibility anyway? How speciescentric are we? Why can't we try to protect the gorilla and panda because we should do it, not because it will benefit or not benefit us in any way?

[LondonIan]

Actually I doubt we do disagree and if we do we're friends right?:D
BTW I hope you saw the end of my post, I was editing as you posted.

I certainly agree about human's driving tasty animals into extinction, that why I excepted Hunter-Gather activities. Interesting to speculate that we may have ended up killing MORE species if we had NOT agrarianised and industrialised (Rubbish, of course. We would not have been successful enough to have had the same population pressures).

Also you're right about speciescentric attitutes. That's why I DO see the activities of humans as being part of the natural selection process.
Strange, perverse, unique and horribly destructive as we are - we are part of the natural order. Our effect on other species might be the same as that of a natural catastrophe, but it still promotes adaptation (think of the change in the size of elephant tusks over the last century because we weeded out all the really big tuskers. Big tusks became an anti-survival trait).
At the same time we are encountering/causing mass extinction, we are also seeing (as in other M.E.s) a flurry of adaptive processes to cope with US.

This, in a strange catch-22 way is part of the problem - and the irony. It is our unique level of sapience which allows us to ask the qustion, 'What SHOULD we be doing' and ask it as a moral question as well as utilitarian.

I think you can imagine that I am actually passionate about preserving bio-diversity and our maybe-sapient cousins especially. But it is our biologically inherited attitudes which endanger these species and also our evolved traits of empathy which may preserve them.