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stgagnon
Tue, Oct-28-03, 12:52
Greetings:
I'm not a regular poster in this forum, but I'm now looking for answers.
I seems like I might get some balanced replies from this forum. (?)

Background:
My mom, who has been doing Atkins since the beginning of the
year, and who has lost 20 lbs, feels great, has low BP, but who has seen increased LDL since starting the diet, had an emergency doctor visit today.

Seems that she temporarily lost sight in one of her eyes this weekend,
and the GP is attributing it to a possible clot. He is doing more tests
on her this week. Until the tests come back, they don't really know
what caused the vision loss.

Here's what I'm wondering about:
The doctor told her that Atkins is BAD. (He didn't tell her this during
a previous visit; he said she seemed great and to keep doing what she
was doing.)

He told her that the fat is bad; she should be doing low carb AND low fat.
(?) And he recommended the South Beach diet. OK, whatever.

But here's the thing that really has me suspicious: He told her that
"Atkins *really* died from a heart attack and had vascular blockages.

I have asked her how he knows this; she hasn't replied yet.

Has anyone heard this from any RELIABLE source? (Are there any
reliable sources out there?)

With this information, along with all the cr*p going on about Iraq, I am
really starting to think that we can't believe ANYTHING anymore.

Thanks for reading!
S.

Lisa N
Wed, Oct-29-03, 04:56
But here's the thing that really has me suspicious: He told her that
"Atkins *really* died from a heart attack and had vascular blockages.

I also would be very interested in finding out what his source of that information was. AFAIK, there was no autopsy performed and it was widely publicised that Dr. Atkins slipped on ice while walking to work, hitting his head and suffering a subdural hematoma which he did not recover from. Unfortunately, with such an injury, the odds were not with him as it is fatal in 90% of elderly and young who sustain such an injury.
Sounds to me that this doctor is repeating rumor and not fact and I would take it as such unless he can produce a credible source (ie actual medical records) that says otherwise. Obtaining such information would be very difficult since HIPAA laws prevent such medical information from being released to the public without written consent from the family.
It could also be possible that this doctor is confusing the cardiac arrest that Dr. Atkins suffered approximately a year prior to his death with his actual cause of death, but at that time an angiogram was performed and showed no blockages present. The cardiac arrest was caused by cardiomyopathy that Dr. Atkins had for several years and developed as a result of a virus that he picked up while travelling overseas and that information was released to the public by Dr. Atkins and his family in response to the rumor that he had suffered a heart attack (MI).

Sinbad
Wed, Oct-29-03, 05:05
He told her that the fat is bad; she should be doing low carb AND low fat.
Ok so where do your calories come from then? I guess it'd have to be protein! But wait! Any nutrionist worth his salt (sugar?) will tell you for absolute certain that a high-protein diet will wreck your kidneys.
I guess it's just not safe to EAT any more....

Lisa N
Wed, Oct-29-03, 05:13
He told her that the fat is bad; she should be doing low carb AND low fat.
(?) And he recommended the South Beach diet. OK, whatever.

He needs to go back and read that book again. South Beach is not low carb other than the first 2 weeks and states so right at the beginning of the book.

scorpio381
Wed, Oct-29-03, 09:25
My opinion is that your mother's doctor is a quack. First he tells her she's doing great and to keep up the good work. Then when something goes wrong (whether it was related to the Atkins diet or not), he tells her to STOP what she's doing....that it's a bad, bad thing. I'd bet you 10 to 1 her doctor has never read the Atkins book. He's only grasping at straws, pulling his opinions out of thin air. Doctors are not Gods. They are not well-informed on every medical subject. Unless they can find a direct link to what's happened to her now and the Atkins diet, I'd tell her to go on her merry way and possibly find a doctor who will support her choices.

As for the reason of Dr. Atkins death.....Here again, this doctor is grasping at straws in an attempt to get his point across.

BTW...I wish your mom all the best.
Good luck.

NickFender
Wed, Oct-29-03, 12:28
Last spring, the Journal of the American Medical Association published an exhaustive review of all pertinent studies regarding low-carb diets. One of the primary conclusions they reached was that there was no conclusive evidence that low-carb diets could be linked to the various health problems that low-carb critics typically cite.

PurpleStix
Thu, Oct-30-03, 21:49
Your mom's GP is dangerous. If she really does have a clot, she can't afford to eat the wrong food.

If she is truly in dietary ketosis, triglycerides in the bloodstream won't last when glucagon catches up with them.

CindySue48
Sat, Nov-08-03, 13:08
Nick.....can you post a link to the article? I'd love to read it!

black57
Tue, Nov-18-03, 21:26
The writers of PP state that fat and cholesterol cannot clog the arteries without the help of carbohydrates. These writers, who are also doctors, have explained this quite clearly in their book. I, personally, would ask my doctor to explain to me why they are wrong.

Black57

jimjam
Tue, Dec-30-03, 15:12
He told her that
"Atkins *really* died from a heart attack and had vascular blockages.


I'm sorry all, but that is true - I actually heard Dr. Atkins physician say this on a health show on FOX News the weekend after he died. It was actually his own physician who said this way back - it's really true but the Atkins people really wanted to keep it quiet because he - - or now his business - makes millions off this diet and don't want a good thing to end by scaring people.

But in the end, I just think we all need to be responsible for our own bodies and be sure to get our cholesterol levels checked, etc., and stop blame-shifting. It may hurt some, but not others and no one knows unless they try...

Lisa N
Tue, Dec-30-03, 15:38
I'm sorry all, but that is true - I actually heard Dr. Atkins physician say this on a health show on FOX News the weekend after he died.

Funny...I can't find any reference to that at all in the Fox News archives (other than a report on his cardiac arrest roughly a year prior to that). Can you find it? Are you sure you aren't remembering his cardiac arrest (not diet related) a year prior to his death? It was widely reported as a heart attack, but the two are very different with often very different causes.
Several people witnessed Dr. Atkins slip and fall on the ice in front of his practice striking his head on the pavement and it was reported that he suffered a subdural hemotoma as a result, which has a more than 90% fatality rate in people his age.
AFAIK, the family refused a post-mortem autopsy and if one was done, his doctor was seriously breaking patient confidentiality (as well as at least a couple of Federal laws) sharing confidential patient information publically without written consent from the family which I doubt they would have provided.

jimjam
Tue, Dec-30-03, 23:48
I don't have a link handy, no but I saw the doctor and heard the interview and know what he said - he said the good doctor died of a heart attack. It was a weekend show - can you search those archives?

Lisa N
Wed, Dec-31-03, 09:36
It was a weekend show - can you search those archives?

I searched their entire archive database; no mention of Dr. Atkins dying from a heart attack. As a matter of fact, every report that my search turned up stated that Dr. Atkins died as a result of injuries sustained in his fall, which as I mentioned before was witnessed by several people.
I searched the web for "Dr. Atkins autopsy"...nothing.
I searched Fox News database for "Dr. Atkins heart attack"...only the report from a year before his death and at that time it was reported that Dr. Atkins had undergone a cardiac angiogram and had clear cardiac arteries.
Without a link, there is no way to verify what was or was not said, but if you heard correctly and this doctor was publically giving the results of Dr. Atkins autopsy (if one was actually performed and the only way to verify whether he did or did not have atherosclerosis and it was the true cause of his death would be an autopsy), then I have to wonder if he still has his license because doing so is violating Federal HIPAA laws without written consent from the family. I'm sure the news media would have snatched that up and reported it widely given their current bias against low carb, not just on a weekend show for which I can find no record.

black57
Wed, Dec-31-03, 11:19
Last spring, the Journal of the American Medical Association published an exhaustive review of all pertinent studies regarding low-carb diets. One of the primary conclusions they reached was that there was no conclusive evidence that low-carb diets could be linked to the various health problems that low-carb critics typically cite.

Why didn't the news media jump on the news of DA dying of a heart attack or heart disease?

The American Heart Association tested this diet and revealed results on the news, Thanksgiving 2002. Not only did they prove it to be a better diet than the AHA's it proved to be healthier. i researched this diet for a long time and when I heard these results it I decided to start this woe. I won't print this out completely but my Cholesterol total is 148 ( anything under 200 total is normal )
triglycerides=59
glucose = 98

Here is my question. DA had been on this diet over 30 years. If he died of heart disease why did it take so long to kill him? It is really hard for me to believe that DA died of heart disease.

Black57

Wenzday
Wed, Dec-31-03, 14:01
She needs a new Doctor.

NOBODY could make me believe Dr A died from heart attack....I would not have started this plan if I didnt believe in the many health benefits and such. It actually makes me mad that these rumors are flying but hey..whatever gets people going I guess.....

Aragorn
Wed, Dec-31-03, 19:39
A couple of links with info regarding Dr Atkins Death.

http://www.residentandstaff.com/article.cfm?ID=67

http://edition.cnn.com/2003/HEALTH/04/17/obit.atkins/

While I think the debate will always be there on whether or not this diet is safe I believe it would be wise to have labs done on a regular basis.

stgagnon,

Sorry to hear about your Mom. If it were me I would strongly urge her to seek another opinion.

Jim

black57
Wed, Dec-31-03, 22:04
Part of this WOE is to have lab work done on a regular basis. I read the links. There was not an autopsy performed, so where is this info coming from about him dying from heart disease? Also, he was on a low carb regimen for 40 years.I cannot believe that after living for 40 years on this WOE that the media views his diet as being the cause of his death. My dad ate as he felt like eating all of his life and died at the age of 67 from heart disease. Why isn't the media jumping up and down citing my dad's faulty eating that took his life.

RoseTattoo
Thu, Jan-01-04, 08:10
OK, I did a web search and found this link.

http://healthyguy.com/atkins/

IMHO the article is entirely scurrilous. My father, who did NOT have high scholesterol, died of a subdural hemorrhage. Anyone can develop a blood clot after a fall, not just someone with high cholesterol. This proves nothing.

Lisa N
Thu, Jan-01-04, 08:36
There is some evidence that having high serum cholesterol can contribute to chronic subdural hematoma, but acute subdural hematoma (which is what killed Dr. Atkins) is always caused by head trauma. In the elderly, the head trauma doesn't even have to be something spectacular like an auto accident or falling from a great height; it can be something as simple as falling out of a chair or slipping in the shower (or on an icy sidewalk).
In chronic subdural hematoma, the cause is also sometimes a head trauma but it is often so minor that the patient can't remember bumping their head and the symptoms appear a few weeks after the injury as opposed to immediately after the injury with acute subdural hematoma.

FromVA
Thu, Jan-01-04, 12:55
"However, we do know one thing. Millions of people still believe that Dr. Atkins' bizarre low fiber, high animal fat diet is going to save their life." - Healthy Guy, MD

This was the last line in the article posted by RoseTatoo. He obviously has done his research and knows what he is talking about.

His one source reference is CNN and says there was no autopsy. So how does he "know" these facts?

If there was any real truth to this claim, the British tabloids would have had a field day with this information for MONTHS!

Lisa N
Thu, Jan-01-04, 13:53
There was more even evidence to show he had unusually high cholesterol. As recently as April 2002, Dr. Atkins was hospitalized after going into cardiac arrest. He still refused to believe that this heart problem had anything to do with his diet when he stated, "...in no way related to diet."

Taken from Healthy Guy's website: http://healthyguy.com/atkins/

He's an MA, not an MD and the statement above tells me that he has bought hook, line and sinker the current low fat dogma that high cholesterol causes heart attacks. The fact is, more than half of heart attack victims have normal cholesterol levels, so it's not a very good predictor of who will or won't have a heart attack. Furthermore, many people with very high total cholesterol levels never have heart attacks; if the causation of high cholesterol = heart attack were that accurate, they would all have heart attacks (or certainly a lot more than do now). More recently, it's now thought that Triglycerides, c-reactive protein and ratios of HDL to total and HDL to LDL are better predictors of future cardiac events but that hasn't even been shown conclusively. High carb, even with low fat, is a good way to wind up with high triglycerides as well as high circulating insulin levels (something else that seems to be a very good predictor of future cardiac events).
I did a search for Subdural hematoma and none of the links that I found (and there were many) listed high cholesterol as a risk factor for devleoping either chronic or acute subdural hematoma. The biggest risk factors were: age, use of anticoagulant drugs, alcohol or drug abuse.
Reading through Healthy Guy's website, he promotes a low animal fat, semi vegan diet so of course, he's going to be against the Atkins version of low carb.
His whole article is insinuation without the facts to back it up. :thdown: