Paleo Pets

[PaleoDeano]

Hi,

I was just wondering what people are feeding their pets. I have a cat, and was just wondering what the best food to feed him would be. I don't like him eating the dry cat food he eats because of all the grains in it. However, people have told me he "needs" it for the health of his teeth, etc. He really likes this dry food. But, I don't think it is good for him. He eats canned food as well, but I am sure it has a lot of junk in it as well. He just turned one year old. I give him lots of bits of meat at times. And, he really likes meats like salmon, turkey, chicken, bacon, pork chops, etc. I was just wondering if I should start feeding him raw organ meat from bison or what? Please let me know, since I would like to get him on something besides the dry food... and what is this stuff about it being good for his teeth? Does he need bones to chew on for his teeth or what? I would very much appreciate info on this. And any links to info on the web, too. Thanks so very much!

[sunkist]

Hi Dean
Well I feed my dogs raw red meat, raw egg yolks, canned dog food, cooked chicken, scrambled eggs. Yeah they are spoiled!!

They do eat the dry food also but not a whole lot - just a little for their teeth.

:rheart: My Rottweiler is 9 years old and weighs 130 solid pounds and my Pomeranian is 11 months old and weighs 7 pounds

My grandmother had a cat once that she fed alot of raw organ meat to but it turned wild after a few years. It was huge and my grandfather actually had to catch it with a belt loop and a burlap bag. He told my older siblings that he took it to the zoo and they put it in the wild cats section :rolleyes: (I doubt THAT was true - he probably had to have it destroyed because it was crazy.

I'm not sure about the raw organs as much because often the liver can have parasites and toxins in it - but there ARE organizations who believe in feeding pets the raw paleo way. I think it's called BARF. :lol: But I'm not sure!

[PaleoDeano]

Thanks Sunkist!

I did some searching on the web, and found one site that has a lot of info on cats.

http://www.felinefuture.com/

I am definitely going to get him OFF commercial cat food ASAP!

It's funny, but all I have been finding says the best diet for a cat is mice, small birds, reptiles, insects... food that farm cats thrive on. Some of the healthiest cats, with the softest most luxurious coats I have ever seen are on farms. I have watched these cats swallow live mice and the tail goes in like a piece of spaghetti! And, they say this is the healthiest thing they can eat. The whole animal.

[sunkist]

My little Nicky "caught" and ate a snail this morning - his version of hunting!! :lol:

My Rottweiuler has caught possums, a rat, a bunny - but I don't like him doling it because of possible rabies - plus I'm an animal lover so I don't like to purposefully sic my dog on any other animal. If we lived in the woods it would be different because they would eat what they wanted to. That's the circle of life :roll:

Cats are born hunters - you cannot take that out of them I don't think. I had a cat once who had been collecting butterflies - everytime she went outside she would catch one and bring it back in and then go put it under her favorite chair. I was vacuuming one morning and happened to lift up the chair and there were about 25 dead butterflies under there!! :cry:

Another time she came to the door and she was hiding something that was in her mouth - I opened the door, she ran in and opened her mouth and a little bird flew out!!! :eek: It landed on my bookcase and I ran over to it. It was in shock and just froze there so I picked it up and put it in a shoebox with a fluffy towel. I put it out on my porch and within a few minutes it was fine and flew away. My cat gave me a dirty look for that one!!!

Also grass is very important for dogs because of a compund called MSM - it helps with their joints, digestion, everything. It's what we take for arthritis - sold in powder form now)

[mexicosun]

Hello,
I just switched from the Atkins Diet ( I am on maintenance) to the Paleo Diet.
But enough about me, this is about my dog. (Works for cats too). I bought a registered female Pug puppy at 6 weeks. A couple of months later, she developed a severe mite problem and was losing her hair. She had been on a high dollar dry dog food. Vet #1 wanted to dip her 7-8 times in bug poison. I think not! Have you ever seen how unhealthy a dipped puppy looks? Like a person who has been on kemotherapy! I said no. I would have her put down first! Vet #2 was a whole different story. Put her on raw meat, fruit, and vegetables as well as vitamin supplements. She is a year old now and has a full beautiful healthy coat! What's good for people is good for pets too. (No junk food for your pet!). Cats nauurally like raw meat and do well on it. Happy feeding!

[PaleoDeano]

Hi mexicosun!

Glad to see you switched to Paleo! And that is so cool about your dog! That is great that it helped him! When I got my kitten he was about four months old and had terrible mange and scaly skin and brittle, patchy hair... fleas, tics... he was a real mess! http://forum.lowcarber.org/images/smilies/runtear.gif (http://forum.lowcarber.org/misc.php?do=getsmilies#) He had been eating dry dog food his whole life. He was underweight, etc. I started giving him cooked meat all the time. Also gave him dry and canned cat food. His coat got very soft and healthy. But, it was cuz the meat in his diet. I did not want to keep him on the dry food, or the canned either.

I have been reading a lot on the web about feeding cats raw meat. I have read that most cats will have a transition period to getting away from commercial cat food and going to raw meat. Some sites said one may have to even "force feed" them the raw meat, to get them use to it. I was a bit concerned about what it was going to take, but was determined to make it work. The web sites recommended being firm with your cat in making this transition. So, yesterday I took up the dry food and canned food that I normally had sitting in bowls all day long for my cat (he is about 14 months old now). I thought he would really scream at me about this, since he was visiting his cat bowls about 20 times a day (especially his dry food). I read where cats are just bored from being cooped up all day with nothing better to do... they will just go crunch on their dry cat food, and my cat did this.

Anyway... to my surprise, my cat did not protest in any way to this completely new and different situation with his food. And, as soon as I took out some raw ground bison (which has bison heart and bison fat ground in with the meat) he started getting all excited. I was not sure if he just did not know what he was getting or what. But, as soon as I put the bowl down, he went nuts and started chowing down on it! He ate the whole bowl and seemed very pleased with this new food! With the vigor in which he ate this, it almost made me want to try it raw! :) I also gave him some raw egg yolks to eat as well that day. He was so cute... he was sticking his paw in the bowl after licking the egg yolk for a while... I realized he was trying to break the yolk open by poking at it, so I did it for him with a fork! http://forum.lowcarber.org/images/smilies/lol.gif (http://forum.lowcarber.org/misc.php?do=getsmilies#) Then this morning, I took out some chicken that I just thawed. I cut up some meat and fat from this chicken, and he went even more nuts. He absolutely loved it!

So... here I was wondering what kind of challenge I would be up against, and was determined to "get through the transition"... but, to my pleasant surprise, there was not only no challenge, but it was complete instant transition for him! It really seems like he has just been waiting for me to "get the message" and "get with the program" all along!
http://forum.lowcarber.org/images/smilies/agree.gif (http://forum.lowcarber.org/misc.php?do=getsmilies#)
Needless to say, I am very pleased with this. :) I read where it is not good to give pets pork or fish. I plan on giving him raw eggs, lamb, chicken, rabbit, deer, elk, bison, beef, turkey (meat, fat, organs, bones ground together)... all of these meats I get from local farmers. It is all grass-fed, naturally raised meat. So, my cat will not have to suffer arthritis, dehydration, allergies, etc. I just wish I would have been wiser back when I first got him. I have been feeding him lots of cooked meat, but never raw. He really prefers it raw! He is definitely a Paleo Pet!
:yay:http://forum.lowcarber.org/images/smilies/partytime.gif (http://forum.lowcarber.org/misc.php?do=getsmilies#):yay:

[mexicosun]

That's great! Your cat should live a long and healthy life! I wish more people would take care of their pets better!

[sunkist]

My sister has a fit when I do the following (because she is an epidemiologist & microbiologist) AND I wouldn't recommend this to anyone since it could be dangerous - but I love RAW ground sirloin. I have loved it all my life. Whenever my gramma would make meatballs or meatloaf I would sneek into the kitchen and grab a big spoonful of the mixture (raw ground meat, raw eggs, bread crumbs, spices etc) and eat it. She would be like - "You're gonna turn wild & crazy from eating that raw meat just like that cat your Grandpa had!!" - ( the one that is in the zoo -hee hee!!) :daze:

But I didn't care - I HAD to have it. I still do it to this day (of course I get the sirloin from my friends health food grocery store - if that makes a difference?) But my sister always asks me - "So have you had any E-Coli to eat today?" My husband teases me when he sees me & my 2 dogs having some raw sirloin - "So - were you raised by wolves, or what?" :lol:

I can't blame them and like I said I can't in good conscience recommend eationg it to anyone else just in case.

Am I KOOKOO or what? :hyper:

[huntress]

No you are not kookoo, A very tasty dish called steak tartar is raw tenderloin ground and mixed with Raw egg yolk and seasonings Served on crackers. I am a meatcutter a chunk of meat has very little bugs on it when it is freshly cut the longer it sits the outer surface will get bugs so you debug using salt and vinagar wash. Meat you grind your self is safer than store bought grinds you know exactly how old that meat is. Raw meat is tender and has a very pleasing flavour
I have found it easy to digest as well.
Diane

[sunkist]

WHEW!! Okay - Thanks Diane. At least I'm not going to be howling at the full moon anytime soon - hopefully!! :lol:

[Hellistile]

Dear Friends:
I am having trouble getting my cats to eat more natural foods. Started buying two types of raw foods for cats produced locally, one that includes meat (natural, hormone free, bison, ostrih, turkey, chicken) and vegetables and the other with raw meat only. I've tried mixing it with raw egg yolk, with other canned cat food, by itself, and every other way imaginable but they just don't like it. This has been going on since last June. Help!

[PaleoDeano]

In Europe, beef tartare is very popular. There are many other ethnic dishes that use raw meat. An Ethiopian dish called kitfo, which is raw ground beef, is considered a dessert, because it is so sweet tasting. And an Italian dish called carpaccio is paper-thin shavings of raw beef fillet drizzled with a little olive oil and lemon juice (and sometimes mustard), and served with capers and onions. I have really been wanting to try raw bison from the farm I get it from. They raise it completely natural. I also get naturally raised beef and lamb, and would love to try that as well. Someday I plan on doing it. That is how I would love to eat meat. Chicken might be another story! :) Although, I do get good chicken that is raised very naturally as well. This really has got to be the healthiest way to eat meat. It is amazing how many nutrients we cook out of meat! It is a real shame. My cat is going to end up being much healthier than me! :lol: The recipes for cat food I have seen on the web all have raw organ, meat, fat, bones, and eggs. My cat loves raw bison (with heart) and raw chicken and raw egg yolks. I have never seen him eat anything with such delight!

And, Sunkist... it is perfectly fine to howl at the moon on occasion... like this Friday!
:devil: :eek: :devil:


Hey, Hellistile!

Sorry to hear your cats are not taking to the raw meat. Have you tried giving them just one type of animal at a time?... like just raw bison or raw chicken or raw egg yolks? Perhaps they don't want it mixed together. I have just started my cat on this raw food, but have not tried making "homemade cat food" yet (which will be raw egg yolks and meat mixed together, with organs, fat and ground bones). You know, the absolute best food for cats is to give them live mice and have them catch, kill and eat them. But, usually, if a cat has not been trained by his mom to do this, they will just play with the mouse. I have seen farm cats eat mice. They eat them live and whole. They are very fresh, to say the least, and complete in the sense they have all bones, organs, blood... everything that a growing cat needs! :lol: I know this does not sound appetizing... but, the eyes and the brains from these live mice give so many nutrients that a cat cannot get anywhere else. BTW... these farm cats have the most luxurious coats I have ever seen on any cat. They are the true image of health! I would not feed your cats raw veggies. Some web sites have that, but, dogs and cats (and perhaps even humans) need zero carbs in their diet! It is really not good for a strict carnivore to consume carbs! Even cooked meat or eggs is not good for them, because their digestive system will not be able to deal with it. And, you can't find a more carnivorous animal on the planet than a cat! Have your cats been eating commercial food for a long time? There are some forums out there to get on. I am planning on doing that, to ask questions. Will let you know of them once I get them.

[PaleoDeano]

i actually got the nerve up to try some raw ground bison/heart. while giving some to my cat, i noticed how crazy he was for it... and i just put a bit in my mouth, and then ate a bunch more. i cooked a half pound burger for a very short time... when i ate it, it was mostly raw on the inside. and, glad to say i never got sick! :)

i have also been eating a whole lot more raw egg yolks (thanx to Sunkist!) and, like her, i have come to love them! i have always liked eggs cooked over easy, precisely so i can "pop" the yolk in my mouth. i have always loved the taste of the runny yolk. i use to break it over pancakes (back when i ate those horrible things). :)... and, it is very funny... the cooking of the eggs does not change the taste of the yolk. when i eat it raw, it tastes the same. i have been putting 5 egg yolks into a bowl and putting salt and pepper on them and eating them with a big spoon. besides from being cold, they taste the same as the egg yolks i use to get from the over easy eggs... but, i am sure they are much more nutritious raw! i have started to notice a difference with the softness of my hair and skin. good timing, now that winter is headed our way! :)

[PaleoDeano]

Continued from this thread (which got wildly off topic!)

http://forum.lowcarber.org/showthread.php?t=279570

Well... here is the "Paleo Pets" thread.

The rabbit, fur and all, may not contain the gall bladder (I don't think it does). I am going to be calling Tracy and asking her. The last time I asked her, I know she said some of the innards were removed. Just don't know what. But, all the main organs, including the brain and eye balls are there... that is really good for cats to eat! Don't freak about the skull bones, cuz they won't hurt him.

[Nancy LC]

Well, I'll tell my cat your cats recommend it heartily! He has no idea the treat he is in for! I don't think he has ever caught another critter other than insects. I wish he'd hunt down the gophers in my yard! When I was a kid we had a cat we feed nothing but raw kidney (beef I think). He loved it.

[cornbread2]

I have all my pets on EVO/Innova which is raw and grain free. It's a step in the right direction! My dog has lost fat and gained muscle since we switched him to it, he looks great.

[sambalam]

if you want to provide your cats with something to chew on for their teeth, chicken necks are the best. my cat drags hers around the house though, so i have to leave her in the laundry until she's done.

[PaleoDeano]

Found out today that the processor who grinds chicken for me will grind rabbit! :thup: That is gooooood news! They won't grind the fur, but if I bring them skinned, they will grind them!:sunny:

[dane]

Hey Dean!

Why are you grinding chickens and (soon) rabbit? Does your cat refuse to chew bone? I ask because ground meat is fine as a once in a while thing, but long-term, they really need the chewing action of meat w/bone in it.

I've been raw feeding my 2 dogs, 2 cats since July, and I'll NEVER go back to that commercial dry food crap. My cats don't like pork in any form, but they will eat chicken wings, necks, legs (except they leave the center part of the femur bone), ribs, plus beef, veal, and fish. I haven't gotten them live mice from the pet store, but that's an idea. Feeder goldfish, too.

One of my dogs was rescued from the farm my DH used to work for, several years ago. She had the most gorgeous coat.....and her diet was pigeon and rat, lol.

[PaleoDeano]

I get chicken leg quarters real cheap and take them to a meat processor. They have HUGE grinders and they can grind super coarse. The size of the holes in the grinder plate I ask them to use are larger than silver dollars. Therefore the meat and bone come out with very large pieces that my cats get to chew on. My two cats were raised on raw. Their mother ate raw while nursing them. I put bison liver and chicken gizzards and hearts in with the leg quarters before the processor grinds them. There are even large pieces of gizzards in this food that my cats can chew on. It is very important for cats to be able to chew on muscle meat. Good for their teeth and the physiology of their necks and spinal cords. The meat is ground very coarsely, so there is no problem. I put this ground up stuff into small containers and freeze it in my large freezer. They have food they can eat for many weeks, and it is convenient for me to feed it to them.

I use to order ground food from a woman in Pennsylvania who grinds goat, beef, turkey, quail, rabbit, chicken, pheasant, and other stuff. She puts organs and bones and fat and muscle from these animal sources in the ground up. In fact, the rabbit is the WHOLE rabbit, head, fur, and everything! My cats LOVE that stuff! I have given them ground deer and bison for treats. They REALLY LOVE that! Every time I grill that meat, they always get to lick the blood off the plate the meat thawed out on!

Pork is not good for cats. I would never feed any animal pork. I don't eat it that much myself. I have also heard that raw fish is not good for cats. That is something else I won't feed my two cats. I tried to give my cats live mice. They played with them, but never ate them. Live crickets, on the other hand, were a different story! Crunch, crunch... after playing with them, of course! Farm cats that live on mice and bugs and such have the absolute healthiest coats. Beautiful! I will never feed my cats commercial garbage. Once a friend gave them some dry cat food (corn meal!)... they immediately threw it up all over the place! Forget THAT! My cats are VERY healthy! I wish I was as healthy!

[dane]

They have HUGE grinders and they can grind super coarse. The size of the holes in the grinder plate I ask them to use are larger than silver dollars.I didn't know they could grind it coarse like that.....what a great idea! I'll have to ask my butcher. Usually, I'm there with a big cleaver, hacking it up into mouse-sized chuncks. :) In fact, the rabbit is the WHOLE rabbit, head, fur, and everything!Another good idea!

Pork is not good for cats.
Do you have more info on this? Or is it just you personally don't like pork? Interesting my cats don't like it.

I have also heard that raw fish is not good for cats. I believe that certain raw wild fish (in the trout family?) are not a great idea for frequent feeding, and I forget the exact reason, but it was either a parasite related issue, or an enzyme thing. I didn't bother to remember, because I don't get much fish here. I don't worry about fish, because in the wild it's unlikely a cat would be catching his own. However, I occasionally buy whole fresh mackerel for them, for the omega 3's.

LOL at crickets! Another good idea! :agree:

[PaleoDeano]

So, Nancy,

Did you ever get the raw cat food from Pennsylvania? How does Indy like it?

[Nancy LC]

They're not shipping it until the 18th for some reason. I keep telling Indy "Oh boy, you're getting some super treats soon!" This is good because he's getting pretty snoopy with his current food.

Although I just weighed my dear pud last night.... 16 pounds! And here I thought he was losing weight.

I can't imagine I'm feeding him too much. I think we go through a 22 oz can of food (all meat) in about 3 days.

[PaleoDeano]

They're not shipping it until the 18th for some reason.Yah... she always ships out everything on Wednesdays. You should have it in a week.

[Nancy LC]

Hey, I found some promising looking food at Whole Foods. It's frozen cat food, all meat. Not sure if it is cooked or not.

[PaleoDeano]

Hey, I found some promising looking food at Whole Foods. It's frozen cat food, all meat. Not sure if it is cooked or not.It is really not good to feed a cat cooked meat. Cooking changes/destroys enzymes that raw meat has in it. The whole idea behind raw is for it to be natural. I really wish there was a way for me to eat raw meat, and not cooked. I have heard of great health benefits in eating raw meat, organs, and fat. Just doesn't appeal to me... at this time anyway.

[Nancy LC]

Ok, the Hare Today people have TMI! They send me a note everytime they do something wrt my order... like print the shipping label. :p Its funny.

Maybe what I will do is buy a small little freezer for my garage and just order a huge amount from them. Or alternatively I found a place in San Diego that has raw, expensive meat for cats.

[PaleoDeano]

Ok, the Hare Today people have TMI! They send me a note everytime they do something wrt my order... like print the shipping label. :p Its funny.So you will know they haven't forgotten you after all this time! :lol:
Maybe what I will do is buy a small little freezer for my garage and just order a huge amount from them. Or alternatively I found a place in San Diego that has raw, expensive meat for cats.I have seen small freezers that are really cheap. You should try and find some meat processor that will grind up meat for you. Or, buy a meat grinder. I did that, and it wasn't too bad for one cat.

[Nancy LC]

I don't really have extra time to grind cats meat, so its best for me to either buy it that way or find someone else to do it!

[PaleoDeano]

I don't really have extra time to grind cats meat, so its best for me to either buy it that way or find someone else to do it!I hear ya! It is rather time consuming. That is why I have a meat processor do all the grinding now. There is another source I have for rabbit if you want it. She is in Tennessee, but she does not grind the whole rabbit. Her rabbit is good though. And it is a lot less. Tracy (in Pennsylvania) has the best variety of food for cats and dogs.

[Nancy LC]

It is messy too! I had chicken juice spattered everywhere. Does Tracy in Tennessee grind it? Sure, give me her URL if she'll ship to CA.

[PaleoDeano]

Yah... the cleanup was at least HALF the time consumption... so, if you were not making like a two month supply, it was just not worth the trouble! Tracy is in Pennsylvania (Hare Today). Linda is in Tennessee (Big Creek Farms).

http://www.bigcreekfarms.com/

glsmith~planetc.com

linda~bigcreekfarms.com

Linda has other things besides rabbit. Chicken, goat, beef, etc.

[Nakkira]

I'm tempted to pick up some "pinkies" for my cats. It's almost too sad to do though.

[PaleoDeano]

I'm tempted to pick up some "pinkies" for my cats. It's almost too sad to do though.I fed my cats pinkies, but I got the frozen ones. Of course, not being trained in hunting, they just threw them around and had a lot of fun. One of my cats ate his! But, I didn't repeat that exercise! Now I just get them "mini mice"! :)

[Nakkira]

:lol: That's probably what mine would do. I know for sure my Grai kitty would carry his around to cuddle with.

I think the only cat that would eat it would be Neferkiti, she actually caught and ate a rabbit once. I was impressed.

Where do you get mini mice?

[Nancy LC]

What are pinkies? Mice?

[PaleoDeano]

Pinkies are really small mice. There are also fuzzies and hoppers! (larger, of course). Here are lots of links for ordering online. BUT... first go to your local pet store for these and make sure your cat will eat this stuff. You can get live or frozen. If you get live, put them in a bathtub, and see if your cat will eat them. If not, you will be sorry! ;) These are sold mainly for reptiles (snakes and lizards, and the like).

http://www.ggrodentfarm.com/

http://www.themousefactory.com/

http://www.pythons.com/sv/

http://www.geocities.com/heartland/plains/1475/

http://www.rodentpro.com/

http://www.rodentdepot.com/

http://www.miceunlimited.com/

http://www.miceonice.com/homepage.html

http://www.gourmetrodent.com/

http://www.frozenrodent.com/

BTW... here is another link for ground animals for cats:

http://www.bravorawdiet.com/

Here is a local distributor for Bravo products (for you, Nancy):

http://www.pointlomapetpantry.com/

Keep in mind that your cat needs VARIETY in his/her diet!

"mini mice" are toys... they are covered with real rabbit fur... every cat I know goes insane for them!!! :) Lots of stores carry them. Walmart, Osco, etc.

http://www.hartzadvancedcare.com/Our%20Products/Products200/3270095986.jpg

[Nancy LC]

My cat won't play with mini mice, I think he just doesn't get it.

I ran across the Point Loma place in my web searchings! It sounds like a good resource, but possibly pretty pricey.

[PaleoDeano]

My cat won't play with mini mice, I think he just doesn't get it.

I ran across the Point Loma place in my web searchings! It sounds like a good resource, but possibly pretty pricey.That's too bad your cat "doesn't get it"... but, for you that may be a relief! You see, cats have this habit of playing with these mini mice in such a way that they will drive a human crazy. They think of you as their mother or something. In the wild, the mother cat would bring live prey to their young, and let them play with it. This was to teach them how to hunt, of course. If the prey got away (since it was still alive), the mother would have to go get it and bring it back to their young. Fast forward to our situation. Our cats will want to play with these mice and simulate the mice "running" under EVERYTHING (the fridge, the couch, the bookcase, the bed, the dresser, closet doors, you name it!). They do this by swatting the mice under something! Of course, they smell the rabbit fur, and will sit in front of these furniture items and doorways and cry incessantly! I just "play along" with my cats, saying "boy, these mini mice sure love to hide under the (fill in the blank)!"

The local Bravo distributor may be pricey, but it saves shipping costs. You know, you could become a distributor and REALLY cut your costs for this food! ;)

[Nancy LC]

I will definitely check out that pet store and compare costs with Hare Today. And yes, I did think of reselling frozen raw food. :D

[PaleoDeano]

I will definitely check out that pet store and compare costs with Hare Today. And yes, I did think of reselling frozen raw food. :DBravo encourages people to become distributors. Check out their web site. Hare Today is expensive. The upside is she has so much variety AND she includes organ and bone in everything (extremely important!). Have you called Linda Smith in Tennessee? Her rabbit and other meat is real reasonable in price. She will ship anywhere. My cats go nuts for rabbit. You have to feed other stuff though, cuz rabbit is too low in taurine and fat (two things cats REALLY need!).

BTW... anyone who has ANY sources for REAL cat food... PLEASE post them!!! Thanx!

[Nancy LC]

My Hare Today order should be hare today. :D :lol: I crack me up.

Anyway, just a report that Indy has gotten rather kittenish since I started feeding him on the cat food I found in Whole Foods market. So I have hopes this will get even better with the raw food diet. He hadn't been playing much before and now all of a sudden he's getting quite sprinky. He is about 12 years old so I thought perhaps he's just getting elderly. But he's a Siamese and they often live a long, long time. So seeing him act a little perkier is excellent!

Evidence: A wadded up ball of tin foil was pushed under the place-mat where I put his food and water on the floor, knocking the water all over everywhere. :p What a goof ball!

[Wyvrn]

Just curious, why are you grinding their food? We have two Corgies and feed them mostly chicken - we just throw them the whole leg/thigh/back or beef rib and they have no trouble crunching up the bones that are small enough for them to eat. That would include all the chicken bones, though they just gnaw on the beef ribs. All raw, of course. In 3 years we have never had a problem with choking. Eating bones is natural and good for them.

If you are feeding a cat it could probably handle wings and necks just fine.

Wyv

[Nancy LC]

He's an elderly cat and never has dealt with bones, I'm just concerned he'd have problems at this late date.

[PaleoDeano]

Just curious, why are you grinding their food? We have two Corgies and feed them mostly chicken - we just throw them the whole leg/thigh/back or beef rib and they have no trouble crunching up the bones that are small enough for them to eat. That would include all the chicken bones, though they just gnaw on the beef ribs. All raw, of course. In 3 years we have never had a problem with choking. Eating bones is natural and good for them.

If you are feeding a cat it could probably handle wings and necks just fine.

WyvWyv,

Do you throw them hearts, gizzards, liver and other organ meat? The cat food Nancy is ordering has organs, bones, muscle, and fat ground together, and from various different animals. I have a meat processor grind up huge chicken leg quarters (along with hearts/gizzards/liver). They use a very coarse grinding plate (holes are larger than silver dollars). There are big chunks of muscle and fat, and there are big pieces of bones. I can hear my cats crunching on the bones (and they eat them no problem). I am going to have them grind rabbit too. I am afraid if I gave them whole pieces of chicken, they would make a HUGE mess... possibly dragging wings, etc. all over my place. Dogs are different. They will scarf down anything you throw them, right then and there. :) As long as they have stuff to chew, does it matter? It is very convenient for me to take these huge 5-gal pails and have the food ground into that, then scoop it into 1# plastic containers and freeze. I just thaw it out and dish it out to my two cats. Do you see any disadvantage to this? I would love it if they ate mice. But, I would still get the frozen mice (can order online) and keep frozen, thaw out and feed. There are lots of people that feed cats raw that do this. I may try to see if they will eat these, and if so, order online.

[Nancy LC]

Yeah, cats do love to drag their food around. Silly guys.

[Wyvrn]

Dean - they have beef liver once a week or so when we do - we just buy twice as much and give them theirs uncooked (ours is singed on the outside and raw inside). Also kidney or sweetbreads which we sometimes get just for them every few weeks. They also get plate lickins from just about every meal we have, and a couple raw eggs per week. Plus "dog pickle" which is vegetable scraps that we just toss in a jar on the counter and allow to ferment naturally. They are nuts about that. We defrost a couple of weeks worth of chicken for them at a time and after a few days will pour some of the dog pickle juice over the chicken and add anything in the fridge that looks like we won't eat. The pickle juice keeps it all from going bad for a week or more so very little goes to waste and it is hardly any trouble, now that we have the routine down.

I also give them a spoonful of cod liver oil or fish oil from time to time - same stuff I take. Just in case.

Wyv

[Nancy LC]

Since I got that Whole Foods cat food for Indy he doesn't do that routine he does where he sits in front of his bowl or goes to the pantry and asks for something else. :)

[PaleoDeano]

It is so much easier to feed dogs, since they are sort of omnivorous. I strongly believe that cats should live on strictly meat. I have tried to get my cats to eat "pet grass", which some of their siblings will eat (different households). But, they don't even want that. Just other animals. Once they got some kibble (corn!) and it came right back up! They have been raised from day one on nothing but raw animal food. I agree about the omega 3s. I need to get some salmon oil to put into their food. The chicken they get is factory crap (cheap), so they need to get the balance of more omega 3.

[Nancy LC]

My cat likes cashews and coconut milk and he LOVES pork. Little guy won't leave me alone when I have it. He eats the grass outside. He hasn't vomited in awhile.

[Wyvrn]

My cat likes cashews and coconut milk and he LOVES pork. Little guy won't leave me alone when I have it. He eats the grass outside. He hasn't vomited in awhile.Sounds like things are really looking up for him. I think coconut milk/oil is really good for many critters. We feed our Timneh African Grey coconut oil almost every day - he eats the pure oil right off a finger. He was a feather mutilator, at least half-naked when we rescued him from a badly neglectful situation and now he is almost completely recovered, with full tail and flights and a nice sheen to his plumage. We don't feed him any commercial pet food either.

I wonder if fermented veggies might also be good for cats. It is nutritionally similar to the gut contents of an herbivore.

Wyv

[PaleoDeano]

Is raw pork good for cats? I have read in many places that it isn't. I have never given my cats that. Does anyone have any references that show it is OK to feed a cat (or dog) raw pork? I know that Hare Today sells it, but I am still unclear as to whether it is fit for cats/dogs (or even humans). ???

[Nancy LC]

There's a chance of a parasite in raw pork. However, I think it is pretty rare nowadays. My kitty gets a bit of cooked pork when I have it, and he's giving me "the look".

Hmmm... maybe all that raw pork stuff is really urban legend: http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/jun99/929555302.Mi.r.html

[Nancy LC]

My Hare Today order came. I was impressed! Most of it was still frozen all was very cold. She really knows how to pack 'em! I've got rabbit defrosting. Indy will get some tomorrow. :D

[PaleoDeano]

I have heard it is not good to feed cats or dogs cooked meat (especially pork). You might want to check into that one. I know about the pathogens, but there is still some other reason why pork is a problem. Perhaps it is nothing, but I swear I have read issues about pork before. I was just cooking some pork sausage and my cats were going ape s**t! I told them that pork was "not for kittens"... and they did not like to hear that at all. I wish I knew for sure about this. I would love to have given my two little ones some of that pork! ;)

BTW, Nancy, that meat will defrost if you let it set out for a few hours (like 3 or 4). No need to defrost in the fridge. Believe me, cats can handle any pathogens... with their stomach acid alone. Although my cats have been eating it all their lives. I hope he likes the rabbit! :)

Did you check out that other source for ground rabbit, beef, deer, goat? She does not charge as much for shipping, so it is not too bad. BUT, the rabbit is missing the fur, the head, but still has organs, bone, muscle, fat (what fat a rabbit has!). I am going to call her (Linda) on getting some rabbit and beef. It is cheaper than getting whole rabbits and having them ground. I would also have to wait till April to do that!

[Nancy LC]

I've been feeding my cat cooked meat for 12 years, we're migrating to raw now. I think raw is preferable, but a little scrap of cooked isn't going to hurt.

Gave him a bit of rabbit tonight and he ate it. I might have to introduce it gradually or with tuna. He eats anything that has tuna mixed in. :)

I haven't looked into the other source yet. I'm swimming in cat food at the moment!

[PaleoDeano]

Raw is definitely better. If your cat transitions well, that is a real good sign. Most cats that age have a hard time with it... but, others take right to it. Good luck with him! Did you get that small freezer yet? I saw one at Costco for like $239.00. It was a small top loader that would hold about 100#s. 7cu ft.

http://www.costco.com/Browse/Productgroup.aspx?Prodid=10030722&whse=BC&topnav=&browse=&s=1

Or you could just get a larger one to store human food as well! ;) ...now that you are becoming a paleo eater! :)

[Nancy LC]

He's had raw chicken off and on, when I had time to grind it for him.

He seems to be accepting the rabbit well. I'm mixing it with the food I bought from Whole Foods (which he seems to love) to make the transition. I think I'll defrost either the goat or beef next... He usually loves beef.

Yeah, I definitely need a freezer. I wonder if one of those little ones would fit in my Scion. I think it might.

[edit]Yes, indeed. That freezer at costco just fit inside my Scion. It's a lot bigger than some of the ones I had been looking at.

Now... gotta find a spot for it in the garage.

[Nancy LC]

Started Indy on some goat meat today. Its pretty strong smelling stuff, he wouldn't really eat it until I crumbled some dried bonita flakes on top.

[PaleoDeano]

Started Indy on some goat meat today. Its pretty strong smelling stuff, he wouldn't really eat it until I crumbled some dried bonita flakes on top.Sometimes it seems that a cat will "not like" something (cuz they do tend to be quite "picky" at times). I think it is important to be patient and give them time to "get used to" any new food. I have had to do this with my cats, by being really "hard nosed" with them. If they ate deer meat for a few days, forget putting them back on chicken! :) So... I would just have to ignore their cries and be "tough" about just leaving the chicken sitting in their bowl (sometimes for two days!). Eventually they "learned to like" the chicken again, and would go crazy for it in the mornings. Cats want consistency, that much I know.

Cats can handle bacteria easily. Their stomach acid would probably eat through metal! :) So, don't worry about leaving the raw food out, and letting your cat get used to it. You are probably doing this, but just wanted to share my experiences with this.

[Nancy LC]

Yeah, I leave out his raw food for him. I know it takes him most of the day to eat it.

One thing that is funny is sometimes he'll whine and complain and not eat his food, unless I put it outside. I guess his food tastes better outdoors! Or maybe it is because I'm not around to complain to. :p

Which meats do your kitties like best?

[PaleoDeano]

Which meats do your kitties like best?It's a toss up between the whole rabbit (head, fur and all) or the deer meat (or bison meat). If I bring a big bowl of deer meat out to them, they scarf it down in like 10 or 15 seconds! They eat it like they are STARVING! :lol: The chicken they will eat slowly over a whole day. I have a friend who has two of my cats' siblings (I raised 6 kittens on raw... just kept two). These cats got sort of fat, cuz they were fed lots of deer meat. You cannot "free feed" stuff that your cat likes too much, or they will overeat it and get fat. My cats only get bison or deer every so often (like on their birthdays!). I am going to get some rabbit from Linda (in TENN). She skins and beheads her rabbits, but they are much cheaper (especially the shipping costs). When I get this rabbit, my cats will go crazy, I know. But, they will only get so much of it, and that's it. They will be VERY happy cats! :)

[Nancy LC]

So do you just cut up the rabbit then? Or do you grind it up?

[Nancy LC]

Ok, finally went to the other spot, "Big Creek Farms". I'll try them next order!

[PaleoDeano]

"Big Creek Farms" is the place I am talking about. Linda Smith is the woman who runs it. She grinds the rabbit up (after skinning and beheading). She is much cheaper. On her website you will see that she also sells goat and beef and chicken and turkey and such. Her shipping is much more reasonable... so, you should be able to order an assortment of stuff and see what Indy likes. Give him adequate time to eat it. Don't assume he doesn't like something if he doesn't eat it right away. The more variety you can eventually give him, the better.

[Nancy LC]

Indy is downing plain goat tonight. Not with quite the gusto the rabbit disappears with, but he's doing ok! Setting it outside helps. He has a tendency to want to take a nibble or two, then wander off and do something else, then return in awhile. For some reason, he concentrates more on eating when it is outside.

Thanks Dean! I'm really happy to have found some of these sources for raw food. I never would have done it without your help!!! :bhug:

[Nancy LC]

I think I know why Indy gobbles his food when I put it outside. I think he is afraid another cat will eat it. He used to gobble food when before my other cat passed away.

[PaleoDeano]

Here is another list for those who want to feed raw.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rawpaws/

[Nancy LC]

Aw! Widdle ferrets. They're so cute.

[Nancy LC]

Well, Indy is doing just great with his raw food! He really is accepting it and LOVES the rabbit.

I'm a little nervous about getting him deer though, reading about how prevalent the Prion diseases are and how they're finding it in leg muscles and how it was passed to lab rats.

[PaleoDeano]

Well I just got a 50 lb box of rabbit and turkey from Big Creek Farms. It is 30# of rabbit and 20# of turkey. They came in 2 lb ziploc bags. And, are STILL FROZEN... after three days! Linda puts them in a styrofoam cooler, and then in a big box. No need for dry ice! My cats will be SO happy when some of this is defrosted! They have not had rabbit in quite a while! This is much more economical than Hare Today. But, Hare Today is probably better quality (cuz it is the whole rabbit, fur, head, and all). But, I don't know how much a cat would eat of a rabbit if it caught it in the wild, so...

The best way to order from Big Creek Farms is to call on the order, as it says on the web site : http://www.bigcreekfarms.com/ and then send an email to topdawg2u~earthlink.net with the exact order you want. I put my address and phone number (and asked courier to call me) in huge, bold font and asked her to print it and tape it to the box, and she did. DHL called me when they were trying to deliver.

"You may order with e-mail by using the Contact Us page in this website or phone your order between the hours of 9-4 PM EST (423)345-3292. We ship on Mondays."

The best deal is to get 50#s, since the shipping (DHL) is only $20.00 for this. The rabbit is like $2.30/# and the turkey is $1.85/#.

My cats will be purrrrrrring tonight! :)

[Nancy LC]

Would DHL just leave it? My Hare Today order was just left. That worked out just fine.

I was interested in some of the blends they have. I might go that way.

[PaleoDeano]

They might leave it if you left a signed note or something. You could call them and ask. I'm sure you could work something out. Linda has a number of different things, but you should call her and make sure of what she has, because she sometimes is out of stuff. Tracy (Hare Today) has so much more things to choose from, so she is still a good source. Did you ever check with Bravo?

BTW... if you have been following the threads on both the Holisticat and RawPaws lists, I posed a question to both lists about omega 3 needs, since the chicken which I have ground up for my cats is factory-farmed chicken so I was concerned about the balance of O6/O3. It started quite the discussion on BOTH lists. There were a LOT of responses... like 20 per day! for the last week or so. The final verdict seems to be to NOT supplement with salmon oil as some were doing, but instead to feed a raw wild salmon meal once a week. I can get wild pacific salmon for $3.29/lb. It is at my regular grocery store. It is from somewhere around China... but it is caught wild in the pacific. Alaska salmon is more like $5.29/lb. So... once a week I am going to grill one of these wild pacific salmons. They come in these two foot wide fillets that you can just throw on the grill. When I do that, I will feed my cats some of it raw. Hell, I may eat some of it raw myself! Who knows. But, it is a good idea to do this to help your cat (and yourself) get enough omega 3.


Here is one of the posts from the thread on Holisticat :

Dean, Luanne, Sandy & the Holisticat Gang:

For reasons supported by the preponderance of evidence in nutrition research studies, I always choose the whole food (Wild U.S. Alaskan Salmon as being one of the very, very best in both nutrition and virtual freedom from toxic PCB's, mercury, etc.) over isolated supplements as a medium of bioavailable nutrient delivery. There are a plethora of other synergistic helpful nutrients and cofactors contained in wild salmon!

Diane & David & Miss Pumpkin

P.S. Dean, I still cry, as I did when I read of the death of your beautiful cat caused by a urinary blockage. But I can guarantee you that sushi-safe, contaminant-free, wild Alaskan salmon will only help bring glowing good health to the fur kids still with you who need you so much. This is a healing-grade whole food that cannot possibly be the cause of a urinary blockage.

I noticed that you reference articles from the Weston A. Price Foundation a lot. I am a hard-core member of the Weston A. Price Foundation as well as the Price-Pottenger Nutrition Foundation (yep, the guy here in Southern California who did the seminal study on raw, "Pottenger's Cats"--Francis M. Pottenger, Jr., M.D.) Perhaps you should consider joining these foundations as a way of gaining even greater access to the wealth of food science and nutrition information available to us. Animal husbandry, including the best species-appropriate care of pastured/grass-fed livestock is also a very big part of what we do. My own goal is to one day open my own grass-fed raw goat micro-dairy for helping to heal the very sickest among us, both humans and kitties included. I always enjoy reading your informative posts.

----- Original Message -----

From: Dean

Is there evidence that there may be some other helpful nutrients in the salmon that would benefit cats? If so, that would be a plus. If not, then I would be worried about the fish doing them harm. Worry, worry, worry! :) BUT... the reason I do worry so much, is I recently had a beautiful cat die on me (from urinary blockage).

[PaleoDeano]

Well... I opted to buy the 12oz packages of Wild Alaska Keta Salmon Fillets. There are two 6oz fillets in these packages. They cost $4.00. I figure, if I am going to feed my cats raw salmon, I should give them Wild Alaska source. I scraped the raw salmon from one of these fillets into a bowl and fed it. My two cats LOVED it! I am so pleased, cuz not all cats like raw fish. I will give them one of these 6oz fillets one or two times a week. This should assure them better omega-3 ratio and also give them some added bonus nutrients and variety. Now... should I eat the other 6oz fillet raw myself? :) It sure smells/looks good!

BTW... another great thing to feed cats (and dogs) is raw egg yolks. My two cats LOVE them! Of course, so do I! ;)

[huntress]

Be careful about raw fish
It seems that the idea of raw, whole fish is not entirely without problems. An enzyme found in all raw fish, called thiaminase, can destroy vitamin B-1 (Thiamin), leading to neurological disorders accompanied by a general physical wasting due to loss of appetite. [2] This enzyme can be destroyed by cooking the food, which however reduces overall nutritional density of the food itself as well. Diane

[PaleoDeano]

An enzyme found in all raw fish, called thiaminase, can destroy vitamin B-1 (Thiamin)Yes, I have heard of this. And this was a big concern I had about feeding my cats raw fish. BUT, I found out that not "all raw fish" contain this enzyme. Salmon do NOT contain thiaminase... nor do largemouth and smallmouth bass, crappies, bluegill, trout, perch, or pumpkinseed.

http://forums.exotichobbyist.com/view.php?id=1384,1534

BTW, Diane, to kill all parasites, how long should one freeze wild salmon (bought at the grocery store) and at what temp? I've read 30 days, but should it be longer, and, again, at what temp? Are the packaged wild salmon fillets usually frozen for this amount of time before they are shipped to the grocery store?

[huntress]

That is good to know, all the raw food diets I looked at for cats mention fish as harmful.
For killing parasites I couldn't find any thing in my fish smoking book about it, but I do have info for making raw pork sausage safe, for killing Trichinae
freeze for 30 days at 5 degrees
freeze for 20 days at -10 degrees
freeze for 12 days at -20 degrees
I would assume this would work for fish as well
Parasites are fragile.
Diane

[huntress]

Oh ya my mickey likes the stuff I am giving him
started him on monday we'll see if he gets healthier.
recipe at www.catnutrition.org/recipes.html

[Nancy LC]

I made Gyros for myself last night and it occured to me that Indy might like raw lamb. He does! I might be able to get it a little cheaper than at the supermarket I went to (3.99 a pound). And that can be an emergency food for when we're out of other stuff.

[PaleoDeano]

FYI... If your cat barfs with raw food, it is probably due to the temp. When you take raw food out of the fridge it is cold. When this hits your cat's stomach, often they will throw it right back up, soon after eating it. What I have been doing is putting some water in a glass measuring cup, putting it in the microwave, and heating for 33 seconds, then pouring some of this warmed water into the raw food. It makes it sort of soupy, but cats tend to like their food a bit like that (imagine what the insides of a fresh kill would be like - warm and soupy). Doing this will bring the temp of the food up to at least room temp, without "cooking" it in anyway. This has stopped my cats from throwing their food up.

[Nancy LC]

Indy hasn't barfed at all since I've started him on the raw food. Its been great! Except he did barf up a pool of water and a single blade of grass yesterday. Not sure why... he wasn't even outside yesterday to eat that blade of grass.

Your idea of the hot water is good! I think I'll try it. I used to microwave his food just for a couple of seconds to get the chill off. Right now, he's loving his food so much he wolfs it down despite the chill.

[PaleoDeano]

Indy hasn't barfed at all since I've started him on the raw food. Its been great! Except he did barf up a pool of water and a single blade of grass yesterday. Not sure why... he wasn't even outside yesterday to eat that blade of grass.

Your idea of the hot water is good! I think I'll try it. I used to microwave his food just for a couple of seconds to get the chill off. Right now, he's loving his food so much he wolfs it down despite the chill.It is better to just heat water up, not the food (don't want to change the food in anyway). It is best to use warm water, not hot... just put like half a cup of water into microwave for 33 seconds. When you stir some of this water into the food, it will bring it to about body temp (again, it would be like fresh kill). You are lucky he hasn't thrown up yet. I was cleaning a lot of fresh food up before doing this. BTW... this will also increase the water consumption of your cat. Most cats don't drink enough, and that can lead to problems.

[Nancy LC]

Indy liked the hot water in the food. Thanks for sharing that! Except he complained bitterly about having to wait an extra 30 seconds for his meal. :lol:

However, he doesn't seem to like the whole ground chicken I got him from Hare Today. At least, he doesn't down it as readily as he did the rabbit, beef or goat.

Well, I'll know for sure when I get home tonight and see what is left in his bowl.

[PaleoDeano]

Indy liked the hot water in the food. Thanks for sharing that! Except he complained bitterly about having to wait an extra 30 seconds for his meal. :lol:

However, he doesn't seem to like the whole ground chicken I got him from Hare Today. At least, he doesn't down it as readily as he did the rabbit, beef or goat.

Well, I'll know for sure when I get home tonight and see what is left in his bowl.I will predict that it will be gone... or, at least if you left it there, eventually it would be. What he is doing is a "famous cat trick"... known simply as "holding out for better stuff"! My cats do it all the time. Give them chicken, and it takes them 20 hours to eat it. They figure they'll just wait for the rabbit. I'm on to them, only, so it makes no difference. It is SO funny, cuz in the morning, they are use to getting fed, but if there is still a lot of chicken in the bowl, I won't give them anything. THEN... they go in there and quickly finish it off, in hopes I will then give them "something better" (rabbit, bison, whatever). They sure like to play their little games! ;)

This morning they were "crowing" (as usual... 'my little roosters' I call them!). I thought, well, gotta feed 'em. When I went to get their bowl, there was a whole bunch of chicken in there from last night! I told them they already had food, and had better eat it! About 1/2 hour later they came around and both started in with crying! I went to check and sure enough, empty bowl! I gave them some rabbit and they were happy as hogs! :lol:

[Nancy LC]

LOL! Indy plays that "holding out for better" game too. Yeah, his bowl was almost completely empty. He left behind a couple of morsels to show his disapproval. Rabbit never gets left behind. :lol:

[JandLsMom]

Ok i am thinking of switching my dog from crappy dry dog food over to meat and bones! I looked at the Hare today website. I have a question!
my dog is a black lab/golden retreiver and weighs 75 lbs. How much meat per day would i feed him? how many lbs? i would like to know this so i can calculate the costs and get the correct amounts. What recommendations from that website do you all have. Anyone who has a dog, please let me know! how much is the shipping too btw?? How many eggs per day should i give the dog and should they be raw?

[Wyvrn]

Our dogs at ~25 pounds each get about 1.5 medium chicken drumsticks per day. That is, some days they get 1 and others they get 2, or the equivalent in beef/pork/eggs etc. We adjust as necessary to maintain a healthy weight. For a 75 pound dog I'd probably make that 1-2 pounds of meat & bones per day depending on activity level, and see what happens to the dog's weight after a few days.

I don't know if this is as much of an issue for dogs as for humans but I think it's likely that a dog could have the same energy issues, rapid initial weight loss and so on as a human when starting a ketogenic diet.

Wyv

[Nancy LC]

I just found a source for whole (with or without fur) rabbit on the West coast.
http://www.wholefoods4pets.com/ I was ordering from hare-today.com but they're far, far away.

I made a HUGE mistake and ordered rabbit with fur but my cat couldn't handle it. He did great on the whole rabbit without fur though.

[waywardsis]

I'm so glad to have found this thread! I've been feeding my 4 cats raw for about a year now.

Anyone notice a huge personality change in their pet after transitioning them to raw? Mine are climbing all over things now, and perching on top of cupboards. They play a lot more too. Nemmy, who used to be quite aloof, has become a rolly, purry lap cat and Copper, who would barely let anyone near her (very timid) has completely transformed into a social butterfly. Bunny (she's the mamma) became more good-natured and lost a bunch of weight - she was over 20lbs. Cow, resident dork, just got a bit dorkier.

Question - Bunny and Nemmy still regurgutate on occasion, even when the meat is room temp/warm. I think it is because they tend to wolf their food down (the other two eat daintily in comparison). Will that do it? They've always been the regurgitators of the family, regardless of food (although with raw it is much, much less than before).