Snack lovers rejoice!

[Toner]

Induction allows for twenty grams of carbs per day (although they are supposed to be in the form of vegetables). I have found that consuming (or devouring like a mad horse) one half of an Aero chocolate bar and two huge handfuls of peanuts per day I still stay in Ketosis, as long as I cut the salad intake and limit my foods to eggs, cheese, meat, olives, diet coke and coffee throughout the day.) Halelujah. Problem is, it really is hard to stop at half of that chocolate bar. It's so good you know? But then I think of the little demonic lovehandles that look up at me and I trash that bar faster than an induction phase fart.

Cheers.

[AnnetteW]

I'm going to assume you are only doing that rarely, when you are having a major snack/craving attack.

Have you tried following the plan as written to subdue those cravings? I'm only on day 12 of induction and really don't have any cravings at all right now. Sure I'd love to just go hog wild and eat something "illegal" but I'm not craving it.

It's not all about ketosis...healthy eating is also our goal.

Good luck with your diet plan.

[Baconbabe]

'devouring like a mad horse' = form of eating disorder..hate to break it to you..but its true....I agree it's not all about ketosis..it's about controling our eating and being in healthy and balanced..what you're doing does none of that

I suggest no one who is serious about low carbing attempt this form of eating..unless you want to fail

[Toner]

"Devouring like a mad horse" was just an expression. I actually eat it slowly and savour it. Your point about low carbers not trying this.....gimmee a break. Who the hell can give up carbs for the rest of their lives? Let's be realistic here. You started this plan because you loved them so much they made you fat. What makes you think you're going to never gorge on rice, potatoes, bread, chocolate, ice cream, chips, and all the comfort foods that make life worth living again? I think the best approach to the Atkins diet is to treat it as a fast working diet to accomplish your weight goals, and then to switch to a truly healthy WOE, which includes low fat foods and moderate carbs. Basically, anything in moderation. Anyone who says they never have cravings is lying.

If you plan on staying on Atkins for the rest of your life, you need to do some more research about healthy ways of eating. High fat diets are bad for your heart. Look at ol' Atkins himself, barely made through his last heart attack. Be real folks.

[Baconbabe]

No one who follows Atkins gives up carbs at all..if that's what you think it is..you need to re-read the book...I now eat 60 carbs per day and it's still rising as i continue.
I've been doing the WAY OF LIFE since april of this year...I do not crave..and I do not gorge..and I don't use food to make me feel better...that is what makes this plan so great..if you follow it CORRECTLY..you end up at high carb levels..eating balanced healthy meals consisting of natural foods.
You definately need to do some research..if you think 'low fat' foods which are 100% processed and filled with chemicals..are better for you then natural 100% pure foods..you might want to give your head a hard shake to knock some common sense into you.
Fat is not bad for your heart and Dr.A didn't have a heartattack..get your facts straight before you attempt an arguement.

[Nems]

Hi ya Toner :wave:

I myself found your first post quite amusing :D
You must be a writer...are you? Anyway I must admit too that my inital goal was to lose weight and then eat carbs in moderation once I reached my goal but I found I really like what I am eating now compared to eating junk food all the time but I never planned on never eating pancakes again! :D

I once heard that opinions are like assholes, everybodys' got one. :D

Later

[SthrnTami]

Hi Toner,

You really do have some of your facts skewed (but that's understandable, since it's the same junk that's been fed to us for the past 20 years or so).

I don't know what an Aero chocolate bar is, or how much sugar/carbs are in it. I do know that it is important to customize your program to suit your own needs, as long as what you eat doesn't affect your ability to stick with the program, either due to the effect of fluctuating insulin levels or poor weight loss.

I don't stick to the Atkins program 100%. I have caffienated coffee, more cheese than I'm supposed to, and a couple of glasses of wine just about every evening. Once a month I enjoy an off-program meal. My weight loss is moderate, about 25 lbs. since early September. I feel so much better, though, and honestly am rarely hungry and almost never have the cravings I lived with every day before low-carbing. Before this WOE, I couldn't make it to lunch without some type of sweet treat, but now I don't even care.

Can you perhaps try a sugar-free chocolate snack until you're able to give it up? I strongly encourage you to really give this way of life a shot before judging it as a short-term weight loss. Take it from one who's been there, done that. It's not able losing weight. It's about being able to enjoy life, yet maintain a healthy weight.

Tami

[Toner]

Tems and Baconbabe (Baconbabe? What an awful sounding name),

Good eye Tems, yes I'm a writer.

And as a writer my job is to research. If you truly believe high fat diets are good for your heart, call the Heart Association and try convincing them. Are you really going to believe that steak and eggs and cheese are better for your health than fruit and vegetables (all of them) and complex carbs? Do you know what they inject into meat these days? Yuck. Your stool, if anything, should give you an idea of just how healthy long term fat diets are.

Tell me please what Atkins had if not a heart attack. It was a bypass, my dears, and of course his public relations experts are going to tell you it was nothing to do with diet. That's what they're paid to say.

It seems to me that Atkins is for lazy people who want an easy way out, by eating all they want and gorging. The right way to go, of course, is calorie moderation and excercise, not restriction of any certain type of food.

Ketosis is not a healthy state of being, thus the headaches and fogginess, and vitamin supplements that are necessary because the food the diet allows is so lacking in them. Ketosis is fooling your body into starvation, and fooling your body is bad move because your body is smarter than you think, and it will jump back after it realizes what you've done. I'll take 2 to 1 odds you gain all your weight back and more within a year, and two years if you've got the discipline of a priest. Oops, I forgot, even priests are slacking a bit these days, no?

Anyway fatsos, I didn't come on the board to change anyone's mind or beat up on their beliefs. I just thought I'd share the facts about high fat diets and their inconsistencies.

[Karen]

Toner, while we welcome debates, we also ask that you support your claims with facts, generally in the form of studies.

I also strongly advise you to keep personal comments on forum members out of the discussion.

Karen

[agonycat]

Originally posted by Toner
call the Heart Association and try convincing them.

:lol:

Perhaps you missed Duke University submitting it's research and study a couple of weeks ago to the AHA showing that Atkin's actually lowered the risk of heart attacks. Shocked the whole country. Not sure how you missed it, since it seemed to make front page news all across our nation. Now the AHA has decided to run it's own research on the Atkin's diet.

I think you should do a bit more research there buddy before trashing Atkins :)

And about that heart attack. Do you know study's show that men who have their first heart attack are in the 30s to 40s. Diet induced. Atkin's is in his 70s, which tells me it wasn't the diet that did it.

Nice try though.

[SthrnTami]

Obviously, Toner, you are not here for advice or encouragement, but just to inflame a group of people who are doing the best they can to make improvements in their own lives and to help and encourage others. Shame on you.

Tami

[Toner]

If you read my first post you would see that my intentions were entirely helpful. It was when they were attacked that I retaliated. I am on the Atins diet myself so why would I want to discourage? I just think it's not a healthy diet for long term eating. And to prove my point further (at the same time blasting someone's comments about Duke University out of the water), here is an article on the American Heart Association's CURRENT view about it. Before posting it I'll just sum it up for you:

Duke University study on Atkins diet was funded entirely by Atkins Association. (Hmmm...can you say "fishy?")

AHA has NOT changed its point of view and still rcommends fruit, vegetables and grain.

Here you go:

http://www.azcentral.com/health/1120SCIENCE-HEALTH-HEART-DIET-DC.html

Now stop saying I need to do research and get my facts straight when all of your collective posts have been nothing more than naive opinions and factless arguments. People in glass houses......

I am the first on this thread to actually supply any form of backup, while I have ben criticized (by forum moderators no less!) for not doing so. Shame on you.

[SthrnTami]

Toner,

You are certainly welcome to disagree with anyone's point here on the board, or to form your own opinions about the various studies that are out there. But you can do it without name-calling and hatefulness. You were not, in my opinion, attacked. However, you most certainly attacked all of us in response to another person's view of your personal choices.

I'm not going to quote studies to you, because that's not the point. The point is accepting each other and our personal choices. And if you do get offended by one particular person's attitude (or even more than one), I respectfully request that you don't call us all "fatsos" and proceed to tell us that we are all wrong regarding OUR personal choices.

Tami

[Toner]

Excuse me Tami but when someone calls me an "asshole" (read the thread more thoroughly please), I think "fatso" is a relatively benign comeback. Funny how no moderator thought "asshole" warranted any warnings, but somehow "fatso" did. What is this? Kindergarten? Don't be so sensitive. Get over it. I did. I really don't care how much you weigh. I am personally glad to be my ideal weight for a 31 year old male, 175 lbs, 5'10" athletic build. The dark hair and blue eyes don't hurt either. But hey, we're onto bigger and better things now - like me living up to your expectations of proving my point. I have submitted some evidence for all of you to ponder regarding the AHA's view of Atkins diet. I see now that everyone has been silenced. How disappointing. I was hoping for a bit more of a challenge from people who blew hot wind about how great their regime was, and incessantly demanded facts from me. Well I've given you a sample of the facts and I see no rebuttle. It's pretty hard to argue with the AHA, I know. I will accept your humble apologies.

Love ya,

P.

[SthrnTami]

And no apology is offered. One suggestion, though. You may want to go re-read the post that offended you so much. It said, "Opinions are like assholes, everybody has one.". Nems simply was saying we are all welcome to our own opinion. In your jump to flame in response, you assumed the worse. But, of course, to assume simple makes an ASS of U and ME. Me, for responding. If anyone out there is still reading this ridiculous thread, please let me know how to ignore this thread so that I don't get any further messages via email.

Thanks!

Tami

[doreen T]

originally posted by Sthrn Tami
If anyone out there is still reading this ridiculous thread, please let me know how to ignore this thread so that I don't get any further messages via email.
Tami .. in the notification email, you'll see the option to unsubscribe from this thread, or from all subscribed threads. Click on the option of your choice, that should do the trick.

The default is to receive email notification for all threads you've participated in. If you wish, you can change this in your User Control panel ... just click the profile icon at the top right of the page. Select Edit Options, scroll down to "Use 'Email Notification' by default?" and select no. Be sure to click Submit.

Note though that this will prevent emails for future threads. You will continue to be emailed for current threads until you unsubscribe from them.

~~~~~~~~~~~

As for the asshole comment, I didn't see it as a personal attack. Like Tami, I interpreted as a tongue-in-cheek quip about having personal opinions. Please read the Sticky post at the top of this forum, titled "The War Zone. Please read before posting here." This thread was moved from the General Low-Carb forum to the War Zone section, which is more appropriate for such arguments and debate.

However, blatant personal attacks and flames are a direct violation of the Registration agreement, and will result in suspension of the offender's account.

Doreen

[Toner]

I'll put your age somewhere around 70 for the ASSUME joke. Man, that jokes is older than me!

Wow. I can't believe the "meat" of your argument is used up on offenses instead of the subject at hand. If you actually HAVE any facts at all to back up your arugments, please submit them. Otherwise I will ASSUME I have won the debate. So far, as I have stated before, you have been nothing but hot air and sensitivity, a bad role model for a Dr. Atkins diet subscriber.

And why would you call this argument ridiculous anyway? I have presented some good studies and have successfully rebutted provocative posts. As far as debates go, it would seem I am arguing with a bunch of children crying, "No it isn't," or "I know you are but what am I?" Some psychologists believe that people ridicule what they don't undserstand, or cannot argue against. I think you make a lovely case in point.

Too bad you let your fear of the truth hamper your debating skills. You ame out with such a bang but really faded in the home stretch. Maybe next time.

[Thelma]

Originally posted by Toner
I think the best approach to the Atkins diet is to treat it as a fast working diet to accomplish your weight goals, and then to switch to a truly healthy WOE, which includes low fat foods and moderate carbs. Basically, anything in moderation.

Originally posted by Toner
I am personally glad to be my ideal weight for a 31 year old male, 175 lbs, 5'10" athletic build. The dark hair and blue eyes don't hurt either. P.

I wonder..... if you are your ideal weight, was exactly are you doing following some unhealty, unbalanced eating plan????

[Toner]

I need to lose a quick 5 pounds for hockey season and Atkins induction is the easiest way to do it. Duh. Read my posts people, please, before asking useless and redundant questions. I think I've summed things up so neatly even simpletons can make sense of it if they read it a few times.

[Toner]

By the way Thelma, you look pretty cute in that pic. I'd do the induction with yo uanytime. :daze:

[doreen T]

re - Atkins' "heart attack" and "bypass" ...

He suffered a cardiac arrest caused by cardiomyopathy .. a thickening of the heart muscle due to an infection, not clogged arteries. Here's the CNN news report of the incident .. (of course, we can only assume that CNN is not on Atkins' payroll ;)) .. http://www.cnn.com/2002/HEALTH/diet.fitness/04/25/atkins.diet/


re - Atkins' funding of the Duke University study ...

I've read this statement elsewhere, and while it's partially true, it's misleading. According to the Duke University Medical Center report:The study appears in the July 2002 issue of the American Journal of Medicine and was funded by an unrestricted grant from the Atkins Center for Complementary Medicine.

read the full brief here (http://dukemednews.duke.edu/news/article.php?id=5676).
So ... what is an Unrestricted Grant?? According to Duke University's Accounting Dept. policies, procedures and terminology .. Grants: Unrestricted: refers to gifts or bequests to the University where the donors have not specified how the gift or bequest is to be used.

http://www.finsvc.duke.edu/finsvc/gap/rev32xx.htmlIf you go to Duke University's Office of Research Support (http://www.ors.duke.edu/), you'll find links to details as to how grant monies are awarded.

Unrestricted grant monies are administered by an unbiased third party committee, to study proposals which have been developed and meet strict guidelines prior to application. This is totally different from research solicited by a drug company, for example, which directs and controls the implementation of the study, and the results that are obtained.

The grant money provided by Atkins Research organization did not involve any influence or restriction on the Duke study nor its results. In fact, the media release of the study indicate that the researchers were surprised by the results, as they were expecting quite different.

Doreen

[Nems]

Hiya Toner

Tami was right...I wasn't calling you personally an ahole...it was just a saying I heard many years back which I found very amusing the same way I found your choice of words in your first post very amusing. Funny thing....I thought you were a female until I read one of your last posts...guess because I don't know of many men who look bad with a little extra weight.

I'm not one for debate because I have to admit I haven't done extensive research on either side. All I know is this diet is helping me change my eating habits and to eat more balanced meals in the long run. Of course my main objective was to lose weight and still is.....Oh my....vanity is still there after 43 three years. :D

[Toner]

Hello and good afternoon ladies. It's nice to be back in the good books, even if only for awhile.

Agonycat - it is a pleasure to receive your informative post about the Duke funding fiasco.

Nems - thanks for the explanation and I ask your forgiveness for being cheeky earlier on (this goes for all of you).

Thelma I still think you're cute even if you hate me.

Okay, back to the discussion. Unrestricted grant to me means "here's some money - make me look good." I don't know what it means technically and I won't pretend to although I KNOW it's a little fishy, as is all political funding. It's just that way.

Having said this, I must admit I have not felt better on any diet as I have on Atkins. This diet makes me energetic, lively and slim. Health implications are not a factor for me as I do not have high cholesterol or diabetes, and I'm pretty sure my body's up for a little ketosis. Again, I fear the long term results because it just does not FEEL right eating loads of cheese and meat and eggs while leaving fruit and vegetables and complex carbs behind. SOmeone on this board sais they were up to 60 grams of carbs a day now. Oh wow - what's that? A potato? Please....

The AHA's recommendations are sound. Eat fruit in abundance and fat in moderation and weight and health will take care of themeselves. Oh ya folks - excercise plays a part in this too. I know a lot of us hate it, including me, but it's totally necessary to sweat it up frequently. The modern office job is pure evil. We work for the man getting nowhere fast while we can actually feel the fat forming on our asess. Thank God my work has a gym, which Iuse religiously every lunch hour for weight training. By the way, did you know that weight training counts as cardio and each pound of muscle burns twice as much as each pound of fat? Get those weights out!

So, to end this rather long rant....the unrestricted grant, in my interpretation means "I'll scratch your back if you scratch mine" pure and simple.

Now back to my salami and brie.

[nsmith4366]

Brace yourself - I disagree. But I know you can handle that.
Just follow your own path. What works for YOU cannot work for everyone/we are all different in so many ways.

Thank you everyone for proving one thing. I love this message area/forum/website. THIS and only this one allows for HEATED and sometimes humourous areas of blatent disagreement. It's REFESHING to hear other people's points of view...

...especially if they challenge well ANYTHING and EVERYTHING.

Stay brave, speak your minds and above all, continue to respect the view of the other - kindness and expression do not have to be mutually exclusive.

Don't be afraid to post it, boast it or "toast" it (as in "your toast")...debate it til it drops - how else are we ever going to learn to live and share this space TOGETHER?

N

[Toner]

That's right NSmith. You go girl! Or is it boy? Maybe Nicole Smith? Hmmm....

[mnokat]

I really wasn't. I was going to avoid this discussion completely. Alas, my years as a debater have kicked my common sense into the ground yet again... so,

Having said this, I must admit I have not felt better on any diet as I have on Atkins. This diet makes me energetic, lively and slim. Health implications are not a factor for me as I do not have high cholesterol or diabetes, and I'm pretty sure my body's up for a little ketosis. Again, I fear the long term results because it just does not FEEL right eating loads of cheese and meat and eggs while leaving fruit and vegetables and complex carbs behind. SOmeone on this board sais they were up to 60 grams of carbs a day now. Oh wow - what's that? A potato? Please....

First of all, I want to state for the record that I do not follow the Atkin's plan (I'm currently doing a lower carb version of Body For Life). However, I have witnessed many people be very successful both in their weight losses and IMPROVE their cholestrol, HDL and triglycerides while following it. Many people are even able to get off their cholesterol, heart meds and insulin injections from being so successful following DANDR. Also, if you have read the book in full, or even visited the website, I'm sure you know that Dr. Atkins does not suggest to "leave fruit(s) and vegetables behind". Not even in the induction phase of the eating plan is this suggested. As one approches maintenance levels more and more fruits and veggies are added to the diet, even those higher up on the glycemic index than the green leafy veggies, broccolli, and berries that are reccomended for Induction.

The AHA's recommendations are sound. Eat fruit in abundance and fat in moderation and weight and health will take care of themeselves. Oh ya folks - excercise plays a part in this too. I know a lot of us hate it, including me, but it's totally necessary to sweat it up frequently. The modern office job is pure evil. We work for the man getting nowhere fast while we can actually feel the fat forming on our asess. Thank God my work has a gym, which Iuse religiously every lunch hour for weight training. By the way, did you know that weight training counts as cardio and each pound of muscle burns twice as much as each pound of fat? Get those weights out!

"The AHA's recommendations are sound" -Says who? You? The AHA? LOL :lol: If they are so sound, and if the ADA and AHA are the end all be all of dietary information, then why 1) are Americans more Obese than ever in the history of our nation since having implemented the Food Pyramid? (I assume you have read the NY Times article, at the very least ... if not, click here (http://www.lowcarb.ca/articlesb/article344.html) )

Eat fruit in abundance and fat in moderation and weight and health will take care of themeselves.
I am living proof that this is not the case. There are many others here that will agree. I have always eaten well. I was vegetarian for 3 years even. And yet, although I was on the swim team, tennis team, AND soccer teams in high school, and ate better "balanced" diets than any of my friends, I was always a size 14. For people without weight problems, with properly functioning metabolisms, I will agree with you, such a diet will probably work for them. However, as I'm sure you've seen, most of us here have seen, heard, tried, and done it all - with no success. From Weight Watchers, to Jenny Craig, to Slim Fast, to other more extreme measures... it has been tried, and failed by most of us. Yet somehow this works. Pretty hard to dispute that, IMHO.

"Oh ya folks - excercise plays a part in this too.... By the way, did you know that weight training counts as cardio and each pound of muscle burns twice as much as each pound of fat? Get those weights out!" LOL!!!!!!!!! :lol: :lol: I really have to laugh at this one! Have you actually browsed around this forum at all? You'll notice that the VAST MAJORITY of us work out regularly. Feel free to peek into my gym log any time (link will be posted at the bottom of this post), or Natrushka's... or any of the Gym Logs found in the Exercise Forums section.

Also, if you want hard core studies to verify LC living, as a way of life, not just a "quick fix", doreen T has posted MANY links throughout this forum to MANY articles in favor of Low-Carbing, as well as Natrushka , and our own TrainerDan . ;) Rather than posting the links to the studies, I thought you might get a kick out of reading through a recent thread initated by "Infuriator": Click Here (http://forum.lowcarber.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=63841)

I'm sure you'll find it both amusing and enlightening. :D

Have a great day! Good luck with your Hockey!

:wave:

Kate

[Toner]

Greetings Kate, and thanks for the rant. Let's get at it.



"The AHA's recommendations are sound" -Says who? You? The AHA? LOL :lol: If they are so sound, and if the ADA and AHA are the end all be all of dietary information, then why 1) are Americans more Obese than ever in the history of our nation since having implemented the Food Pyramid? (I assume you have read the NY Times article, at the very least ... if not, click here (http://www.lowcarb.ca/articlesb/article344.html) )

I think the anser to why Americans are obese is pretty simple. It's called McDonalds. It's called KFC. It's called Popeye's. It's called Haagen Dazs, Chocolate Brownie Overload, Pizza, Mr. Big, Bacon Double Cheese Burgers and French Fries. It's also called lazy. Were you really trying to imply that Americans got fat from fruit? I am laughing so hard right now I think I'm going to faint.

Your debating skills are evident, though obviously rusted through the years of inactivity you speak of.

Merry Christmas!

P

[Toner]

In reading your post again Kate, I noticed another glaring example of why people turn to Atkins. It's called speed. The question for overweight people becomes, 'why do something that's healthy when it takes longer and more discipline to accomplish when you can believe a little hype and do something totally unhealthy and get quick results?' This is the juggernaut behind Atkin's success. It's an easy way to do it. And I'm the first to boast about the excellent results from Atkins diet. But I'm the last to get the wool pulled over my eyes about healthy eating high fat is.

[mnokat]

I do agree with you. Fast foods and our busy lifestyles combined are a definite problem in this country. However, America is not the only country where obesity is increasinly becoming epidemic. It has spread through Europe and is even reaching the historically thin Far East. Also, most of the people taking part in this forum will be happy to tell you that while being overweight, they very rarely, if ever, ate at MickeyD's, KFC, or Popeye's. Ice cream and Pizza... well those are probably more of a contributing factor for most of us... but then again, what are their number one ingredients? Refined Carbs - in the forms of sugar, and white flour, respectively.

(btw, what's a Mr. Big? I don't think we have those around here... I assume it's a fast food joint?)

Were you really trying to imply that Americans got fat from fruit?

No, actually, I'm more concerned with the "low-fat" products the food industry has bombarded us with. Low fat generally equals low carb. For a lot of us that is a bad thing for a few reasons. 1) low fat also means low satiety. Therefore Americans are eating MORE of them and ingesting higher calories, and much higher carbs. 2) Ingesting carbs, especially those of the "refined" variety, or high on the glycemic index, induces cravings in most of us, cycling us back to that loop where we keep eating because we are even more hungry!

Good old fats go a long way IMHO. It fills you up, gets your calories up there (for those of us that have a hard time meeting minimum calorie requirements, which, believe it or not, is many overweight/obese people), and keeps your body from entering the "starvation mode". When you eat fats your body says "okay, I have some fat here, I don't have to store up any more" and will burn the fat you've ingested, rather than saving it as a reserve.

:D

[Toner]

Interesting.....but why is it then that China,for example, has the least amount of obesity in the world and their diet is based on carbohydrates? And on the show Survivor....when all they eat is rice for a month and a half, why do they lose weight?

For me the problem seems quite clear. High fat and high refined carbs together are the problem. Low fat and low refined carb is the solution. Yes, it takes longer to lose weight this way but it is healthier in the long run.

People believe what they want to believe. Dr. Atkins has capitalized on this concept, by telling you that you can lose weight rapidly while still remaining healthy. The inevitable truth however, is that there are no shortcuts in life that don't stiff you one way or another in the long run. Maybe it's a cliche, but it's one I subscribe to due to the cyclical nature of ourselves and our planet. What comes around goes around.

I believe that a carbohydrate based diet, with low fat, will result in a lean physique as long as there is some activity involved in the person's life.

By the way, has anyone attempted switching from Atkins to a low fat diet? What were the results?

[doreen T]

Originally posted by Toner
In reading your post again Kate, I noticed another glaring example of why people turn to Atkins. It's called speed. The question for overweight people becomes, 'why do something that's healthy when it takes longer and more discipline to accomplish when you can believe a little hype and do something totally unhealthy and get quick results?' Strange .. I've been low-carbing for nearly 3 years. And I do make a point to eat plenty of fat. Of course, I only eat fat as it arrives from nature, not the packaged, processed or fast-food kind. In the meantime, my cholesterol has dropped from high risk category to textbook perfect numbers, including a nice rise in the protective HDL. My kidney and liver function is perfectly normal. In fact, prior to low-carbing I had elevated liver enzymes due to Accutane therapy, which I took 15 years ago for severe acne .. those levels are now normal. Before turning to low-carb, I even followed a very low fat vegan diet (McDougall) for a whole year, which did not resolve the liver problem and actually worsened my cholesterol and triglyceride levels. I also gained weight, and developed Irritable Bowel from the high volume of whole grains. Most whole grains contain anti-nutrient enzymes called phytates which even long, slow cooking can only partially de-activate.

For the record, I have never in my life been a great consumer of fast foods. As a Health Professional, I'm always careful to eat a "healthy" diet. I did not gain my weight snarfing down endless Big Macs and Snickers bars. I gained it eating whole wheat bread, skim-milk yogurt, and fat-free salad dressings.

My weight loss is not "speedy", as I have numerous chronic health conditions and medications with weight gain as a side effect. The fact that I've been successful in losing the weight I have is a bonus added to my improved health, and I anticipate continued weight loss, albeit slow, over the years to come.

Not everybody follows a low-carb plan for the "speedy" results.

Doreen

[Baconbabe]

"AHA has NOT changed its point of view and still rcommends fruit, vegetables and grain"... Yes..and that's because the AHA is just as anal as all the other idiots that run their mouth about Low Carb being bad for you...

Where exactly does it say you can't have fruit, vegetables and grains on atkins?? I eat all of the above..so does anyone else who is at On going weightloss or Maintenance.

You..like alot of other morons who thrash this way of eating have no idea what it's about..have you even read the book completely?? Obviously not or you'd know that people who follow the plan correctly can eat all of the above..You're making points that ignorant people make about it being 'high fat' or all meat and cheese..those are myths..old wise tales..get over it.

This is what i ate yesterday and is an average day for me:

Breakfast

1 Slice whole wheat high fibre toast
1 tbs s/f jam & 1 tbs peanut butter
2 eggs scrambled with onions/mushrooms/sundried tomatoes/spinach - topped with cheddar

Snack

3 big stalks Celery
2 tbs cream cheese

Lunch

4 cups Romaine
2 tbs dressing
1 grilled chicken breast
shredded parmesan

Snack

1 apple or bowl of grapes

Dinner

8oz bbq steak
sauteed button mushrooms
cauliflower and cheese sauce
side salad

Dessert

Bowl of rasberries drizzled with heavy cream

WOW..is that every unhealthy! WOW..I'm eating SOOO little..i must be in starvation mode!!! WOW..look at me gorging myself with fatty foods!!!! I'm going to die from not getting enough nutrients!!!! :lol: I love ignorant people..they make the world a better place :lol:

[Toner]

If all you were eating was whole wheat bread, skim-milk yogurt and fat free salad dressings yo uwould not have gained weight. I think you may be suffering from a little condition called 'denial.'

Of course the weight you gained was from fatty foods and carbs together. I think blaming weight gain on medications is a way of deflecting the blame from your own inactivity. I have an aunt who is obese and claims her medication caused it. You know what she eats at dinner parties? Cheeseburgers and pizza.

Anyone who eats more calories than they burn is going to gain weight. That is the natural condition of our being. Atkins wants to distort that so that we can eat higher calories than we burn and still lose weight. it works, but only temporarily. And worse still, fat clogs your arteries and is bad for your blood. Hearts do not like fat. They like excercise and low fat.

Why do you think obese people are called fat? Because you are what you eat.

[mnokat]

By the way, has anyone attempted switching from Atkins to a low fat diet? What were the results?

hmmm... I'm not so sure. I do know that it is hard to do both Low Carb AND Low fat - Your calories have to come from somewhere. The Zone Diet is the closet thing I can think to something along those lines. Most of the people on this forum continue a low carb WOE indefinitely. I would guess that people that give up the WOL end up not participating in the forum...

Hey, you're totally entitled to your opinion. No one here would begrudge you that. As you said, people believe what they want to believe. However, as you have never faced the same issues with your weight that the majority of us have, you're not exactly qualified on the subject. Sure, low fat may work for you, and many people like you. I know my own family, low fat works great for my dad's side. It hasn't worked for me though.

Dr. Atkins has capitalized on this concept, by telling you that you can lose weight rapidly while still remaining healthy.

I disagree. Dr. Atkins, like most nutritionists, condones losing 1%-2% of your body weight per week. Anything else he believes is too much. So, for me 1%-2% of my body weight would be about 2 -4 lbs/week. I think that that is pretty reasonable, and healthy. Obviously those with more weight to lose than myself can lose more per week in the beginning. The "big losses" on Atkins usually come during the first induction phase and are usually attributed to water weight.

As for China, I really don't know enough about their diets to comment. I do know that soy, fish, and chicken tend to play a big role though, as do vegetables. The fact that most of China is rural and they are out all day farming probably has something to do with it also. When I mentioned the far east, I should have mentioned the Industrialized Far East, where traditional diets are being taken over by more "western" foods, and schedules are busier like in America. And in Survivor, of which I am a big fan, btw - they eat very little carbs. I'm not sure where you get that idea. THis season the tribes have been living on fish and leafy veggies, with the occasional "treat" of some rice noodles. I think that the biggest reason the survivors all waste away has more to do with starvation level calories. Based upon what I've seen they can't be eating more than 700 cals a day. I think even you would agree that that is terribly unhealthy, and no way for anyone to try to lose weight!

High fat and high refined carbs together are the problem. Low fat and low refined carb is the solution. Yes, it takes longer to lose weight this way but it is healthier in the long run.

I believe that a carbohydrate based diet, with low fat, will result in a lean physique as long as there is some activity involved in the person's life.

I again disgree. But that is just my, and most of the +18K members of this forum's opinion. As I've stated, I tried the high carb / low fat thing... many times in fact. For years at a time. It didn't work. Plain and simple. Everyone is different. Everyone's metabolism is different. What works for you may not (and, in fact, does not) work for me. No matter what you believe, I know this to be a fact. Would you begrudge me this WOL because it goes against your opinion - even though I've lost 25 lbs, and am stronger, and fitter, and healthier than I've been in years?

[Baconbabe]

:lol: Tell that to allllll the people who have maintained their weightloss for years and years..all the people who have gone OFFmedication for high blood pressure and diabetes...who's pains have gone away...who are finally sleeping through the night..who are the healthiest and most energetic they have ever been...

You can keep your opinion..that's all it is is an opinion..means nothing what so ever

[Baconbabe]

well said mnokat :)

[doreen T]

Originally posted by Toner
If all you were eating was whole wheat bread, skim-milk yogurt and fat free salad dressings yo uwould not have gained weight. I think you may be suffering from a little condition called 'denial.'

Of course the weight you gained was from fatty foods and carbs together.. Well, since I was there and you were not, folks will just have to take my word for it ;)

Not everyone is driven by impatience and the NEED for fast results, forgetting anything but short term, immediate goals and instant gratification. Believe it or not, some of us actually are disciplined, and strongly motivated by long-term goals.

Nothing I've read in this thread is new; the arguments have all been debunked before, and frankly, anybody can use the Search function to find them.

I wish you success in your own personal goals, and ... hope your hockey team makes it all the way to the finals.

Good luck.

Doreen

[mnokat]

I just noticed all of the extra posts in the past few minutes... I seemed to have missed a few while I was typing.

I just caught the "speed" comments, and the calorie ones.
I am in qualified agreement with you on both counts.

1) I do agree that SOME people, such as yourself for example, do hear about Atkins and start it for a "quick fix". However, that is not the majority of us. In fact, if you look around this forum a bit you will find that it's barely even a minority of the active members. As I've said before, most of us have dieted for years, we know what to expect. And a "quick fix", although it sounds good, isn't going to keep the weight off (substitue, diebetes, high cholesterol, etc) for the rest of our lives .

2) Calories in must equal less than calories out in order to lose weight. Agreed. In fact, I don't think anyone here will disagree with this fact. Because it is a fact. The point that you seem to continuously miss is that we (as in the majority of the members of this forum), tend to eat MORE calories on a low fat/ high carb diet than we do on a low carb / higher fat diet! Low carb = cravings for us. It = hunger. As I'm sure you know Hunger + Cravings = EATING. THIS is the point. This is why this WOE is so succsessful for so many of us.

There is this little chemical in our bodies called Insulin. In case you didn't know, ingestion of refined carbs, and highly glycemic foods results in the body producing insulin. This is supposed to help your body be able to process the foods that you eat. For most of us though, we are known as insulin resistant. Which means that our bodies produce more insulin that they should, which in turns means that we have cravings after eating such food, so that the excess insulin in out body will have something to do... we need more food to give the insulin it's job. however, when we eat again, it produces another insulin release, etc. etc. As you can see, it's really a viscious cycle. But, there are physiological, chemical reasons why LC works. Especially in insulin resistant people - of whom we are many more than you would think.

Feel free to do a search on insulin resistance. There are many studies, articles, and even posts in this forum to explain it better than my little summary just did.

Okay, time to hit the gym! HIIT Cardio tonight!

Have a great night everyone!
Kate
:wave:

[tamarian]

I'll just add my two cents here, in regards to the comments on AHA.

The link posted to the AHA statement is neither a scientific study, nor research. It is a an official statement by an organization. In terms of scientific merits, it has none, and it never claimed to be.

For example, the FDA conducted a study to determine if the Swedish study is correct in regards to high number of acrelimydes (a carcinogen responsible for cancer) in cooked starchy carbs. The research done by the FDA found it to be true, but the official statement issued by the FDA, just said the same as the AHA, eat high-carbs and low-fat.

So, you have to separate between official statements, and scientific studies. They're not the same, and they have different merits and quite a different agenda and audience.

It is interesting to note that the AHA funded another scientific study, to refute the results of the Duke study. What were the results? They were identical to the results found by the Duke researchers.

Both studies are posted in the Studies and Research forum.

Wa'il
P.S. In regards to your comments on moderators, we're also members who read and post. We're not ganging up on you. As long as you keep it clean, you need not worry.

[asugar]

I'm one of those people who started this diet for a "quick fix." I had every intention of just doing the lowcarb thing to "shrink my stomach" so that I could stand to stick to something like the WW diet. After being on it for 3 months, I have decided to make lowcarbing a WOE permanently. When I was doing WW, I used to panic some days when it was only 1 in the afternoon and all my points were already used up. :eek: The free points foods just didn't fill me up. :thdown:
asugar :wave:

[amieK]

I lost 56 lbs in 8 months on WW three Years ago, then worked for them for a year. The most common complaint I heard was HUNGER! All I could do was recommend filling up on the infamous Garden Vegetable aka Cabbage Soup.

By the way, has anyone attempted switching from Atkins to a low fat diet? What were the results?

I wasn't doing Atkins but my own combo of low carb WW when I decided to try the lowest fat eating plan of them all - rawfood veganism. The subsequent carb cravings weren't pretty and I only lasted a week.

Right now I eat MAINLY RAW vegetables, a moderate amount of fruit (more than most LC plans allow) supplemented with WW sized portions of turkey, lamb, beef, fish, eggs and moderate amounts of nuts, cold-pressed flax and olive oils, cheese and yogurt. I also eat dried fruit in small amounts when I really crave something sweet and on occasion I will eat a small amount of cured pork such as ham or bacon. About once a week I will have a tiny amount of rice, rice bread or pasta and even more infrequently will I eat a potato cause I really just don't like 'em much. I choose leaner cuts of meat because I like them better and cut the fat and skin off because it doesn't appeal to me. I do NOT eat refined sugar, deep-fried foods or anything that comes in a box, mandarin oranges excepted :D.

This looks like a pretty healthy diet to me. I don't get cravings and I do not feel the urge to "devour like a mad horse."

I am allergic to gluten-containing grains and corn. After I completely detoxed them out of my system I had an anaphylactic reaction to a few bites of (whole wheat) pancake. A few months later, I also had a really frightening anaphylactic reaction to eating popcorn. I've also had milder toxic reactions to soy and other legumes.

If I ate according to AHA recommendations I'd be dead :skull: in minutes.

So all those dangerous long-term effects of LC you keep talking about are just something I'll have to take a chance on, considering the alternative....

ciao,
amie
:p

[Lisa N]

Yup...it sure was a quick fix for me. My blood sugar, blood pressure and triglycerides came down so fast, it made my doc's head spin :roll: (something the ADA diet couldn't do, even after 8 years on it and for the record, the ADA diet is low fat)! Total cholesterol also dropped 52 points. Weight loss, on the other hand, hasn't been quite so rapid..75 lbs. in 18 months (all water according to the "experts"...yeah, right! :lol: ).
You display and distinct lack of knowledge about the hormone insulin and how it affects multiple body systems, including fat storage/release, other hormone production and cholesterol production. People who have hyperinsulinemia, cannot release fat as the excess insulin is telling the body to STORE it, not release it. What causes hyperinsulinemia? Insulin resistance. What causes insulin resistance? Excess insulin production. What causes excess insulin production? More carbs than the body can handle, including those that come from fruit. Fat does not cause the body to produce insulin and protein only minimally. You don't have to be a diabetic to be insulin resistant, although diabetics are insulin resistant by definition and if you are insulin resistant, you're headed for diabetes if you let it go untreated along with all of the other health problems that go along with diabetes including heart disease, hypertension, hypercholesterolemia and kidney failure.
It's estimated that 60 million Americans alone have diabetes and that number is increasing at epidemic rates. Since diabetics are insulin resistant by nature and have a problem with carbohydrate metabolism by nature, I ask you does it make sense to tell them to eat more of what they have a problem with to start with? Yet that's exactly what the "experts" at the ADA have been doing for years. It seems to me that here we have at least 60 million people that can benefit from a controlled carb diet, not to mention the 30 million or so more Americans that have diabetes and don't know it and the several hundred thousand more (at least) that have insulin resistance. Yet we have the ADA saying, "Hey, it's okay to eat sugar. Just cover it with more medication!" This is their "expert" opinion. They can take their "healthy" diet and "expert opinions" and shove it. ALL my bloodwork and tests look far better now than they ever did while religiously following the "recommended" diet for diabetics fo 8 years and all it got me was fatter with a need for medication to control my blood sugar and blood pressure (which I no longer need on low carb, by the way).
Low carbing saved my life. Literally. Deal with it.
By the way, I fail to see how scarfing down candy bars would be considered "healthy" on any diet.

[amieK]

I'd like to know just how people are supposed to be able to fit in the recommended 8-10 servings of fruit and vegetables when they are stuffed full of starchy carbs?

I never seemed to be able to fit in more than a maximum of 3 or 4 servings of veg and 2 or 3 of fruit before LC. I just didn't have room in my tummy for them. And I wasn't even eating the full amount of whole grains recommended. And NO I was NOT stuffing myself with Big Macs candy bars etc. I was filling up on homemade whole grain bread, crackers and homemade low fat muffins.

IT IS A GREAT BIG FAT LIE THAT PEOPLE EATING LC DO NOT EAT THEIR VEGIES. THEY PROBABLY EAT MORE VEGIES THAN ANYBODY ELSE.

Sorry for yelling but it makes me so mad :mad: that this lie is perpetuated so widely.

Now I'm off to make a GREAT BIG salad to have with my 4oz steak for supper. And I'm going to have a 4oz glass of wine too! Can I count that as a fruit? lol

Fellow vegie lovers unite!
amie

[Lisa N]

If you want a study to back up what I just said, read here: http://forum.lowcarber.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=73523.
Fructose in the form of glucose and high-fructose corn syrup is widely used in diabetic and low fat products, it is also found in....fruit.
The fruit we have today has been specially bred over the years to contain higher and higher amounts of fructose and glucose to increase their sweetness and therefore their appeal. The fruit we have today is far different from that which was available even a few hundred years ago. Still think it's healthy to eat all the fruit you like just because it's low cal and low fat? Think again.

[Lisa N]

Originally posted by amieK

IT IS A GREAT BIG FAT LIE THAT PEOPLE EATING LC DO NOT EAT THEIR VEGIES. THEY PROBABLY EAT MORE VEGIES THAN ANYBODY ELSE.



Absolutely, Amie! I eat far more veggies now than I ever did on low fat; usually 5-6 servings a day. I also eat some low glycemic fruits such as berries and melons when they are in season. Nowhere in Dr. Atkins' book does he say that we must never eat veggies and fruit again. In fact, he encourages it! Even on induction, you are encouraged to eat at least 3 servings of veggies each day; more if you can stay under 20 grams of carb a day which isn't hard if you select low carb veggies and aren't scarfing down candy bars on the side. ;)

[PoofieD]

I did the low fat thing..
Oh yeah.. with TONS of running.. I got very thin.. but I couldn't keep up that level of food forever.
nor that level of activity.
And what is more I am now ANGRY since I get the science of it.. that "they" kept telling me it would work.. all I needed was discipline..
Well you can run and not eat all you want.. but someday it catches up with you..and because you have screwed up your hormonal balance....its worse than ever.
But hey..
I am with you ladies..
This is much slower for me.. but I feel good. I eat all the veggies I used to..
and I do without PASTA, BREAD, TONS Of POTATOES.. FAST FOOD.
So what threatens anyone that we CHOOSE to live without eating these things??
I keep asking that. ..and you never give an answer! ( and by you I mean all the silly people who come uneduated about this to tell us what to do!)
Poofie!

[Lisa N]

Originally posted by PoofieD
So what threatens anyone that we CHOOSE to live without eating these things??


Easy. Those that profit from producing those things. There is a HUGE food industry built around the low-fat dogma. If people stop following low fat and start following low carb in significant numbers, profits will fall and the stockholders will not be happy campers. Many people would stand to lose a lot of money.
Another category of people who could potentially feel threatened by how we eat is the pharmaceutical companies who produce cholesterol-lowering drugs, antihypertensives and oral antidiabetic drugs which there would be a much lower need for if those who took them started low carbing and found that they no longer needed them. There is BIG money in these types of drugs. If you don't believe me, check how much a 30 day supply for Glucophage or Altace costs or Lipitor for that matter. What do you think would happen if more than 50% of the people who took them (many of them with the prospect of needing them for the rest of their lives) suddenly found that simply cutting the carbs down eliminated their need for them?
I'd say these companies have reason to be nervous and get behind the low-fat camp. That's where their bread and butter (er low fat spread) is coming from!

[amieK]

I get what you're saying LisaN but I agree with Poofie. Why is it all these various individuals feel the need to bash this WOE. Surely not all of them are in the pay of the LF food or pharmeceutical companies.
What difference does it make to anybody else what I eat?

It's like people have finally almost gotten the hang of respecting different religions, so dietary evangelism has moved in to fill the void or something.

If people are happy and healthy with their WOE, why should anybody else care?

It's bonkers :daze:
amie

[PoofieD]

They really haven't gotten the idea of respecting different religions.. .. you can trust me on that one!
So tolerance for food choices is going to threaten them.. trust me.
The part that makes you go hmmm....
Is that haven't they ever realized that folks in the past never worried about the fat content of their food????
That we weren't dropping dead of heart attacks until carbs became the basis for life??
That the egyptians and persians and Romans may very well have been done in by their high carb lifestyle?? :-)
Oh well.. .
Poofie!

[Toner]

Lots of action on this thread lately huh? I'm glad I sparked some life into you people.

It seems to me that you all wax poetic about things like insulin and glycemic this or that and bla bla bla. Unless you're a biologist or a chemist you don't really KNOW anything about what you are tlkaing about, and are simply regurgitating the text you've read from diet guru's who are out to make a buck off your big behinds (this comment is affectionately aimed at Baconbabe - yuck what a Godawful name). Your big behinds got big not from eating fruit and grain, as you so claim, but from doing nothing for months upon months while stuffing your faces with crap. Come on, you're not going to get anywhere until you fess up and stop trying to justify whatever the hell works for you.

Are you telling me that if Atkins never came a long, yo uwould not be able to lose weight? Please. You are lazy, salad-dodging sloths who will follow any leader who promises minimum activity for weight loss. And of course, once you follow a plan you need to dedicate yourself to it otherwise it just becomes a lie. So you end up believing your own little lie to make it work. It's a sickness, really. The same way it was a sickness that made you obese.

So just because you found something that acts as an accelerator for your weight loss needs, don't go around jumping on sensible people's heads (people who have eaten fruit and carbs and low fat their whole lives and never got fat cuz they didn't sit around watching Young and the Restless every day) to justify your bad eating habits. I'm not even going to get into the moral questions and unnecessary slaughter of millions extra living animals just to satisfy your voracious appetites.

Do what you need to do to get your behinds down to normal size. But don't go criticizing smart people who know better and are just trying to help you not die of a coronary in 5 years, or of liver or kidney failure.

I don't appreciated being called a moron, and idiot, and ignorant when I have good intentions and your health in mind. It seems there is a large amount of jealousy on this board because I'm lean and I eat what I want. "Don't hate me becasue i'm beautiful."

I just want you all to know that Atkins could very well be the latest carnation of Satan and you have all become his little minions, spewing about how great he is while he takes your dollars and pays for his bypasses the diet causes him.

I ca't believe someone on this board actually laughed at the AHA, and called them ridiculous or something like that. WAKE UP! They know more than Dr. Atkins.

Someone on this board said that fruit made them fat. Give me a break. How often were you onthe couch watching Magnum PI with a bowl of apples instead of butter-soaked popcorn, chips and ice cream? You really believe that just becasue someone tells you something made you fat, it must have? Were you minitoring your intake of food when you got fat? No, obviously not. SO what qualifies you to say fruit did it? That is the most stupid, uneducated and blatantly ignorant thing I have ever heard, other than people being abducted by aliens. But then....I'm sure a lot of you probably were right?

[doreen T]

Toner, you seem determined to persist with your inflammatory behaviour, and personal attacks, despite previous warnings. The consequence for repeatedly violating the Registration agreement has been clearly spelled out, and so your account has been suspended.

:exclm: Note to readers: the "no flames" rule applies to all members. Please refrain from engaging in similar behaviour as Toner.

Doreen

[PoofieD]

Nah.. it doesn't. Its really pretty easy science.
Insulin is your fat storing hormone.
What makes insulin make an appearance??? Fat?? nope... your body looks at the dietary fats you take in and says.. "Oh..I have these cells to repair or this to do with this fat". Protien.. oh. it can.. if you eat to much ( a tough feat really!) but mostly looks at it and says.. opps.. got these cells to repair.
It looks at the carbs.. SUGAR.. and says.. OPPS.. send in the troups. I don't need this.. they eat TOO MANY CARBS for WHAT I NEED TO DO.. and book.. THAT is how you get your body fat.

Obviously you can't eat what you want. Your terrified of eating something your body needs.
Nobody on this board is eating the junk food of doritos, cheetos.. chips. cookies.. ect.
WE don't eat junk. WE are not sloths. MANY of us are doing workouts that would kick your butt..
Want to come join me on a morning of heavy weight firms, walking and Tae bo??
Sloth?
Since I came to understand WHAT my body was up to.. I look on the streets. .ITS heavy people OUT WALKING!
Trying to get a handle on this.
Folks like you give them totally incorrect information.
I wish you coudl tell me.. but WHAT actually BOTHERS you about the Atkins diet?? That the man is right?? That "they" are wrong and you want to be "They"??
Once I stopped running 9 miles a day to keep skinny on the low fat diet I had screwed up my system enough that YUP.. just like doreen said.. I blossomed ON SKIM MILK, FAT FREE refried bean.. pasta with no fat..
Ect..
Can't live that diet forever. Man was NOT meant to live by bread alone..
I feel good now. As I said..I am up at 5 in the morning doing a work out that would burn your butt..
But hey.. IF that is a SLOTH..then count me in the club..
and don't let the door hit you on your way out!
Poofie1

[amieK]

Thanks Doreen,

that toner guy seemed to be deriving a great deal of enjoyment, feeding his ego by trashing others. (I hope that statement wasn't too inflammatory!)

Man, I can't believe the blind persistence in perpetuating the lies about LC - "salad-dodging" indeed!!! :rolleyes: LOLOLOL

I sometimes even eat salad at breakfast! :D

amie

[mnokat]

And here I was beginning to enjoy our little debate and you had to go blow it.

I thought that someone of your obvious educated background would be able to listen to the stories, facts and proofs pointed towards you and at the very least be able to accept other people's decisions and opinions as being the best for them. (That's the thing about both opinions and decisions, they are personal and right only for that individual.)

Obviously, however, you have no respect for the opinions, reseach, and decisions made of others, no matter how much work has gone into each. As such, I have no more respect for you and will consider this my last post here.

Good day, sir. And good luck on your journey to your "quick fix "before your Hockey season, for your obviously thin self. If you should ever love someone who actually has to struggle with their weight, their cholestorol, their blood sugar (etc) and you have to watch their minute to minute and day to day battle, feel free to come back to this forum and we will try our best to help you re-educate yourself, as we have all come to do.

An OPEN mind is a terrible thing to waste.

~Kate

[agonycat]

Originally posted by Toner
. I'm not even going to get into the moral questions and unnecessary slaughter of millions extra living animals just to satisfy your voracious appetites.



I think this comment speaks volumes more than anything else he tried to stand up for.

For the record, I have yet to see a professional writer feel the need to hurl insults at a general population because they were inarticulate enough to come up with better phrases.

[Josiemk]

But not only does the nuts keep me from feeling deprived of chocolate it has helped make me regular as well. But I'm still going to eat a salad but w/o the croutons. That's where I get most of my veggies at.

[PoofieD]

Its been fun finding ways to add MORE veggies to breakfast.
I have eaten the salad for breakfast.. LOL, right along with the eggs.
I have to keep zuchinni, tomatoes, sprouts, and fresh mushrooms on hand just to have these yummy items for breakfast.
Then there is my all time favorite recipe.. the one from suzzanne somer.. where you fried those thin onion rings till crispy..and serve your eggs on those.. pure veggie heaven.
I have had two veggie servings by this time of the morning and have no less than three I am taking to work.
I will have at least 2 more when I get home from work
But ..I guess that qualifies for salad dodging..
I guess he couldn't quite face the fact that he is part of the food chain.. yup.. his body screams for things he is going to starve it for.
The hockey season won't happen. He doesn't have the means to repair himself.. too bad.. so sad!
Poofie

[doreen T]

The anti-lowcarb arguments here are not new; they've been done before ... and are getting weaker and weaker as time goes on. A year and a half ago, someone posted an article from a national newspaper, slamming lowcarb (you can read it here (http://forum.lowcarber.org/showthread.php?postid=27173#post27173)) .. This was my reply, and I think it's just as applicable here:Originally posted by doreen T

--- Start of rant ---


100 years ago, a scientist went public with his discoveries, and was greeted with mockery and derision by his peers. He was forced to give up his prestigious job with his university; he became the laughing-stock of his day. He ultimately abandoned his homeland in shame, and poverty, never to return again. The man's name was Albert Einstein, and without his theory of relativity, the NASA space program would never have gotten off the ground.

We see with our own eyes that lowcarbohydrate eating programs are helping people lose weight, improve health, correct blood chemistry and prevent disease. We read testimony upon testimony from folks around the world whose lives are changed for the better by NOT eating the way the popular media tells us to. Yet the minute the media publishes a story, funded by who knows?? we abandon our belief, because .... because .... why? The media is all powerful, and all-knowing?? Remember this is the same media that kept silent for over a decade about the fact that cholesterol in your food has little effect on the cholesterol in your blood. Scientists knew this all along, and studies were published in the medical and scientific journals to this fact ... but were never circulated to the public ... because TOO MUCH MONEY was being made from the myth --- who cared if egg sales dropped off, when bigger profits could be made from sales of "cholesterol-free" potato chips, cookies and frozen, chemicalized egg-substitutes?

Lowcarb eating is a financial THREAT to the corporate well-being of grain-foods processors and sugar refiners. (meanwhile, the farmers aren't getting rich) You bet there's financial influence behind articles such as this one, and it ain't a result of an interest in our collective health.

--- End of rant --- The tide is turning, whether the lowfat luddites acknowledge it or not.

Doreen

[Baconbabe]

Fantastic post Doreen :) I just have to laugh at all the nay sayers out there that don't know what they are talking about..I dont let them bother me..I know for a fact that i have never been healthier..i have no more pain..i sleep through the night..i eat more veggies then i ever have..i drink more water then i ever have..i exercise regularily..no migraines...so on and so on..i could go on forever..

Bottom line is lc makes sense..eating all natural foods from the earth..how could some comprehend that low fat 'products' can be good for you? They are made by a machine and all full of chemicals...no thanks..I'll stick to cream/cheese/eggs/veggies/fruit & meat that comes from the land..like it was supposed to be!

Best thing we can do is continue on as we are doing..succeed..and prove the world wrong..I've already done that..and will continue to do so!!

[doreen T]

Admin. note - for some reason, there was a blank message showing as the last post ... so I'm just posting a reply to avoid any confusion.

Doreen

[ edit: problem resolved ]

[Lisa N]

Originally posted by Toner
It seems to me that you all wax poetic about things like insulin and glycemic this or that and bla bla bla. Unless you're a biologist or a chemist you don't really KNOW anything about what you are tlkaing about, and are simply regurgitating the text you've read from diet guru's who are out to make a buck off your big behinds


No...I probably have a great deal more medical training than you do and I LIVE with the condition every second of every day 24/7. Rules of survival 101 for diabetics: Educate yourself about your disease and learn how to control it or it will kill you. It's harsh, but it's a reality I live with.
As for "regurgitating" what I have read; you bet. But it wasn't the diet gurus that eduated me. It was biophysiology books and biochemistry books and a great deal of internet research (not to mention several years in college).
Seems to me that it is YOU who is simply regurgitating what they have read without looking for the research behind it. You have yet to present ONE study that supports your position. You have quoted the official positions of organizations, not studies, with the belief that they (for whatever reason you may hold) MUST be right.
Lack of knowledge on YOUR part does not equate to ignorance on OUR part just because our positions differ. For whatever reason, you are so vested in being right that you are not even able to accept the possibility that you (and everyone that you have chosen to put your trust in for information) just might be wrong. I've lived both sides of this equation. Low fat didn't work as in 8 years on the low fat ADA diet. This does. And no, as a diabetic I wasn't sitting on the couch stuffing myself with all manner of junk foods or I would be dead by now. You see, diabetes is a wonderful condition that has a tendency to kill you if you get too out of line with your diet.
When presented with studies and anecdotal evidence, you resorted to insults, which really says a lot about the strength your position.
It's been my experience that an insult is the last bastion of one who cannot refute what you have to say.

[Lisa N]

Originally posted by amieK
I get what you're saying LisaN but I agree with Poofie. Why is it all these various individuals feel the need to bash this WOE. Surely not all of them are in the pay of the LF food or pharmeceutical companies.
What difference does it make to anybody else what I eat?

It's like people have finally almost gotten the hang of respecting different religions, so dietary evangelism has moved in to fill the void or something.

If people are happy and healthy with their WOE, why should anybody else care?

It's bonkers :daze:
amie

I think it comes down to the fact that they are unwilling, for whatever reason, to believe that the establisment or the experts that they have believed for so long could be wrong. After all, if the experts are wrong about this, it might make you start to question what else they might be wrong about. Since they chose to believe what they were told, that would also make them wrong. If they are unwilling to accecpt the possibility that what they have believed for so long might be wrong, then that must mean that we are wrong and must be "saved" from our folly. Low fat has almost become a type of religion and your "piety" is determined by your cholesterol numbers and how low your daily fat intake is.
Then there's always those that have no interest in what's best for us or our health, they just want to have a good time bashing fat people and telling us that we're fat because we're gluttonous hogs. :thdown:

[amieK]

As far as I'm concerned, if somebody needs proof of the effectiveness of the LC WOE, all they need to do is to take a look
at your stats, or the stats of the other LC veterans here.

Wow! 75 lbs gone! Good on ya!!! :cheer:

If somebody can't accept that as truth, then they must have some other agenda, whether it's a vested interest in the corporate power structure of the status quo or simply an ego that gets off on putting other people down. :thdown:

Keep on fighting the good fight!
amie
:)

[doreen T]

Originally posted by Baconbabe
"AHA has NOT changed its point of view and still rcommends fruit, vegetables and grain"... Yes..and that's because the AHA is just as anal as all the other idiots that run their mouth about Low Carb being bad for you...

Where exactly does it say you can't have fruit, vegetables and grains on atkins?? I eat all of the above..so does anyone else who is at On going weightloss or Maintenance.

You..like alot of other morons who thrash this way of eating have no idea what it's about..have you even read the book completely?? Obviously not or you'd know that people who follow the plan correctly can eat all of the above..You're making points that ignorant people make about it being 'high fat' or all meat and cheese..those are myths..old wise tales..get over it.

< snip >

WOW..is that every unhealthy! WOW..I'm eating SOOO little..i must be in starvation mode!!! WOW..look at me gorging myself with fatty foods!!!! I'm going to die from not getting enough nutrients!!!! :lol: I love ignorant people..they make the world a better place As has been stated previously in this thread .. insults, flames and personal attacks are a violation of the Registration agreement. Please refrain from such behaviour; repeated incidents will result in account suspension.

Not to mention that they only fan more flames from others :(

Doreen

[Lisa N]

Thanks, Amie!

I think the numbers speak for themselves. I actually started low carbing because my blood sugars were out of control and my blood pressure was dangerously high. The weight loss has been a nice side-benefit, but wasn't my primary concern when I started; now that my blood sugar and blood pressure have normalized, I'm focusing more on the continued weight loss. I've gone from an average blood sugar of 250 on medication to one of 100 without it. My blood pressure has gone from 180/106 to 106/82 (no more medication there either), my total cholesterol dropped 52 points and my triglycerides dropped over 200 points as well as my LDL coming down over 40 points. I know my doc sure is impressed with those numbers and supports what I'm doing completely. Oh, yeah...I also recently had a thallium stress test to check for coronary artery disease. Results? None to be seen. Not bad for a 41 year old diabetic on a high fat diet.
I would certainly say that I don't believe that everyone in the world should eat low carb; as a matter of fact, there are some people who shouldn't, but it wouldn't hurt anyone to cut out refined starches and sugars, transfats, hydrogenated fats and switch to whole unprocessed foods.
As far as what Toner said about only a Biologist or Chemist understanding insulin resistance, they likely wouldn't know much about it either, but an endocrinologist would. Maybe he should go ask one to see if I'm right since he doesn't want to take my word or explanation for it.

[bluesmoke]

As I posted over in Media Watch, if you need ammo for your troll guns, go to www.lowcarbsucess.net and look under research, the answers to them are there. DLB

[Lisa N]

Originally posted by Toner
Were you minitoring your intake of food when you got fat? No, obviously not.

Yes, actually I was. As a diabetic, you have to monitor what you put in your mouth and how much of it or your glucometer tells you pretty quickly that you were out of line, unless you're not very serious about controlling your disease and want to die young, go blind, have a heart attack or stroke, have your kidneys fail or need to have a limb amputated. This is what I was allowed (and pretty much followed) daily:

Breakfast: 2 starches, 1 fruit (usually oatmeal with raisins)
Lunch: 2 starches, 1 fruit, 1 vegetable, 1 protein, 1 fat (usually 1 sandwich with 1 ounce lunchmeat, fat free mayonnaise, 1 small can v-8 juice, 1 snack cup unsweetened applesauce)
Afternoon snack: 1 fruit
Dinner: 3 starches, 1 fruit, 2 vegetable, 3 protein, 2 fats (usually a potato and whole grain roll, lean meat, 1 veggie, a salad with fat-free dressing, and 2 tsp of butter on my roll with a piece of fruit).
Bedtime snack: 1 starch or fruit

I starch, vegetable or fruit exchange generally equals 15 grams of carb, 1 fat exchange equals 1 teaspoon, and 1 protein exchange equals 1 ounce, so I was being allowed:

8 starches (120 grams carb)
4 fruits (60 grams carb)
3 veggies (45 grams carb)
4 ounces protein (40-50 grams)
3 teaspoons fat (100 calories)

For a total of 225 grams of carb (900 calories), 40-50 grams of protein (not nearly enough for my lean body mass and another 200 calories) and an additional 100 calories (note this is 8% of my daily caloric intake) and a total of 1,200 calories. Now given that the protein you eat usually contains some fat no matter how careful you are, my daily caloric intake was usually closer to 1,300-1,500 and my percentage of fat as daily calories was closer to 10-15%, I did lose weight at first and my blood sugars even returned to normal for a while, but after a while on this, I started gaining, not losing. I was also walking a minimum of 1 mile per day at 3 mph (took me 20 minutes). 225 grams of carb daily was also far more than my body could handle and I was obviously developing more insulin resistance at this level which is why my blood sugars eventually got out of control as well as my blood pressure. This is what the "experts" recommended and it made me sicker, not better.
Now, you (or anyone else for that matter) can maintain that I'm lying and instead of eating the above diet I was sitting on the couch stuffing myself with Twinkies, Doritos and candy by the pound but since I'm still here to tell about it, that's rather unlikely and people will just have to take my word for it.

[PoofieD]

I believe you....I have seen it in action with my own sister.
On the other hand low fat would have me starving..even with adequate calories..
And then a final binge would always happen.
Funny thing about those binges.. when I started getting adequate fat, and stopped with the extra carbs.. bingo!!!!
They just don't happen!
Thing is.. I have even found excellent Fat products with coconut oil
and flax seed oil. Not exactly sources of killing animals.. since that bothered Toner..
but here is my question. He was eating low fat.. did that include eggs, Chicken and fish?? Where do the scruples end with being part of a realistic food chain??
That has been bothering me the last couple of days.
I suppose the other thing that does is the assumption that I haven't been eating my veggies.
I admit to not getting in fruit.. but I make up with veggies that I prefer.
I like berries..but they are pricey at this time of year.. and I like the occassion grapefruit.
A few of the other less sweet fruits are ones I like.
I have always been this way. LIKE my veggies was NEVER my problem.. ever!
Why do folks assume we don't eat them.. don't like them??
That is why we are fat???
Also to clarify .. I was able to eat low fat, low calorie for about a year while getting very thin..but just a year.. by that point I was overtrained, tired out and starving..
After that..the low fat dieting was interspersed with binges..
I think I will continue with a WOE that precludes the binging.
Poofie

[Lisa N]

Poofie...

I have to admit to not always being a "good girl" on my diet, but those occasions were pretty rare as I was basically terrified of letting my blood sugars get too high even once in a while. While in nursing school, I sometimes had patients assigned to me who had needed amputations or were on dialysis because of their diabetes, so I knew what I was in for if I didn't get a handle on it and keep those blood sugars under control consistantly. Even while I was pregnant, I was so careful with my diet that I actually lost weight with each pregnancy and suffered a couple of lectures from my OB/GYN about not eating enough, but I was terrified of having to go on insulin because of the pregnancies (oral drugs don't work when you're pregnant so it's either diet or insulin). Fortunately, I was able to stay off insulin all 3 times and had 2 healthy babies after losing the first one mid-term. I'm also a bit angry with myself as well for buying into the ADA diet as the way to go even though I knew that diabetes meant that you had a problem with carbohydrate metabolism. I remember being a bit surprised that they would allow me so much, but after all they were the "experts".
Yes, I was also frequently hungry and had cravings while eating that level of carbs and fat and I'm surprised I didn't lose more lean body mass than I did. Perhaps genetics helped me out there as I've always been fairly muscular for a woman, especially in my legs. Then again, perhaps I did and didn't realize it because I never had my lean body mass checked until I had been on low carb for over a year and very likely had gained lean body mass during that time.
There are always those who will have a problem with eating animals or anyone else eating them for that matter, but that's their moral issue to struggle with and I can respect their stance on it as long as they respect mine. Thank goodness this is still a free country and we are free to eat as we please even if others don't approve. I do have to comment on the "ravenous appetite" comment because on low carb, I really don't have one (an appetite, that is). I'm rarely hungry and generally stick between 1,500 and 1,800 calories a day; hardly considered excessive by any standard, nor do I consume excessive amounts of protein. My protein intake is usually between 80 and 100 grams per day.

[TomX]

I think it's funny that Toner showed such skepticism regarding the Atkins study, but just blindly accepted anything the AHA recommended. In my opinion, if you don't exercise a skeptical perspective with regard to any institutional guidelines you open yourself up to bad information. I'm sure there are a lot of women looking at the recent Estrogen therapy study and saying, "but everyone told me I should take it."

http://pubs.acs.org/cen/topstory/8028/8028notw2.html

http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=13604

Tom

[PoofieD]

Its our health and we should ask the tough questions..
and be willing to have reasons WHY we do something.
or not.
My sister with PCOS is having to ask those questions because of course her reason for HRT is endometrial hypoplasia..but she needs to know IF there is another way of dealing with that issue..
And she is asking.. believe m!
Poofie!

[TomX]

Hi Poofie,

I just wish I had started taking my health more seriously before I got sick. It's water under the bridge though. Anyway, I'm sorry to hear about your sister. I'm sure she'll make the best decision for her.

Tom

[PoofieD]

Actually she posts on this board..
She is doing quite well.
We just now have these tough questions about HRT :-)
Hope your doing okay!
Poofie!

[AmberinIN]

I don't know if the person who started this thread will still read it, but I just wanted to add my own experience.

I won't give out my research, I did a lot of research before I started this WOL because that is the type of person I am, because it just seems to get picked on no matter how scientific it is.

I was always thin in childhood. My bodyfat was very low, thanks to my activities and my mother keeping our sugar intake way low because of a history of diabetes in the family. I ate a lot of meat and salads because I liked them, I ate little amounts of potatoes, rice, bread, because I wasn't so crazy about them, and I was a nut for berries, and you could keep your bananas and apples! :p I never thought about what I ate and was pretty good at earning my place in buffet bars!

Then I turned 17 and had my first child (that's another story!). I gained 45 pounds and was depressed and started eating junk food. I could eat a bag of Ruffles in 10 minutes, put my hand into the bottom, and not remember eating them! I was also hungry again in a half hour. Anyway, I got to 175 and decided to get my act together. I did carbohydrate addicts origional diet and went down to 135. I did about 1 hour of aerobics, 5 times a week.

Then, I got married and had a couple more children. This time, I decided that I was really going to do it right, because at 135, I didn't think I looked very good. I started with Covert Baileys Fit or Fat and ended with Susan Powters Stop the Insanity! In about 6 years, I had gone up to 224 lbs. with low fat. I had food scales and nothing went into my mouth that wasn't measured. I ate about 2000 cals. and 30 grams of fat at my most relaxed diet, and 1200 cals. and 10 grams of fat at my lowest. This included one hour of cardio per day, six days a week. I couldn't figure out what I was doing wrong, because I was following strict dietary guidelines, I was tired, starving, and still doing being a good girl, and then I would weigh in and se a 2-4 pound gain. It's very disheartening to see that, go do cardio for another day, comment about how tired you are, and then have your 155 pound high carb munching husband say, "Maybe you should try exercising once in a while."

Anyway, this continued until February of this year, when my mother told me she was on Atkins. I about had a heart attack! (I did have a racing heart!) I immediately started looking in the medical studies for the research on these diets, and after three weeks of studying them (trust me, it's a lot of work, those suckers are complicated!) I found that there seemed to be nothing to keep me from doing it. I started Feb 18th this year and will continue the rest of my life.

I know you didn't want some sap's story, but I just thought you might want to see the progression of my gain and loss. You could say that I went off of my first LC diet to Low fat and I gained. I also believe that at this point, my husband seems to be perfectly fine eating what he wants. This was a point of contention in our home, until I lost weight and he sees that it works for me. So, I guess my opinion in this is the simple fact that everyone has different ways of losing. I can't tell you that low fat is bad for you, only you will be able to figure out whether that is true for you or not. You cannot come into a low carb forum in this same way and tell thousands of people that their way of eating is wrong for them. You just don't know that. No one does, really. I will say this, also, I believe that when you come to a support group for a certain style of life and give suggestions that are contrary to their personal health and well being, because no matter what, these people do believe that cashing in half of their healthy carb count for a candy bar is not the right choice for them, you run the risk of having these people tell you that they feel this would be the wrong thing to do and give reasons and alternatives. Then, to call names and tell them that they are wrong doesn't give credit to the fact that they have tried the conventional ways of weight loss and failed, and then started LC and succeeded. We are all defensive about what we choose, who wants to be wrong?

Anyway, you have probably gone, so I going to stop before I write all afternoon.

Thank you....Amber

[amieK]

Great post Amber!

I loved reading your story. Your stats alone speak volumes about the effectiveness of the LC WOE.

Take care,
amie
:wave:

[GatorGal93]

Amber,

That is one of the best posts I have read on this board since joining in February of this year. I can't thank you enough for sharing it with me/us.

You have come a long way. Congratulations.

Sincerely,
Julie
:thup: :thup: :thup: :thup: :thup: :thup: :thup: :thup:

[Josiemk]

your story sounds like mine except I haven't had any babies yet. I not only ate low fat or smaller meals & felt the same but I'd work out for 2 hours 5 days a week and all it got me was bigger & heavier. I couldn't lose any weight until I tried Atkins, which I thought I never do a while back. But now I've reached my goal first time in the past 10 years, I can honestly say that I am happy at my weight.
Keep it up you are almost there.

Josie

:clap::clap: :clap:

[AmberinIN]

Thanks Guys!

I am so happy to finally have my goal in sight, but even better is the fact that I don't care if I lose a pound each week. I am just looking for a better clothes fit and I keep looking at the muscles that are starting to protrude from my body! I forgot what they look like! I have gone from 156 to 152 in the last three months, but I've dropped from a size 15-16 to a size 11, so as long as I look thinner and feel better, at this point I couldn't care less about the scale! :D

Bye! :wave: Amber

[ysabella]

Amber, that was a great post. I'm going to go read your journal.

As to the rest of the thread, I'm really quite amazed at how nice you guys are to some schmoe like Toner who just wanted to get a rise out of anyone.

Whoever that was, probably some bored 12 year-old girl (and probably Canadian or from some other place where British chocolate is for sale - Aero bars are British), was only interested in honing some manipulative techniques, giving out some abuse, and throwing in a few logical fallacies. TomX, you caught one easily - the Appeal to Authority, with the AHA as the authority. Although if you actually check the article the Toner entity linked to, the AHA didn't say anything too conclusive about Atkins, just that they don't endorse the diet and they feel it lacks enough vegetables and fruit.

Poofie, I have PCOS as well. Has your sister visited Soul Cysters (http://www.soulcysters.com/)?

[jujubaby]

But I see that no one dared to offer a response since dec4,2002.

Do all people get trashed upon for their views?
and is that why there is no running dialogue on this thread?

[ysabella]

Huh?

[Josiemk]

I'm a little confused about what you meant. Do you mean do we all heard other people's veiw because ours is wrong. If that's the case then we mainly hear poeple who are ignorant about carbs. I was once one of those people so I'm not being critcal of them , they are just uninformed. Not eveyone trashes this way of life , more & more people are joining us everyday.

Josie

[PoofieD]

Unless your coming under another name.
What is more is that the original poster Toner was answered several times.
If your that poster.. not liking the answers is NOT the same as not being answered.
And dialogue?? where did you go?? Dialogue happens if you stick around.
if your not Toner.. who are you??
and what did you post on the 4th that was so critical??

[Jaggedpeac]

I have just read all the posts in this forum. I found most of them very entertaining. Toner started out merely stating he found a way to satisfy his sweet tooth. He didn't say anyone had to do it, just that he did and he was still well within his carb level to keep the furnace burning those love handles. Wow he sure hit a chord with a lot of you. You jumped right on him for even suggesting such a traiterous thing, a half a candy bar!!!! If it works for him then why not??? I thought he was just sharing something he thought may help someone out there get over the sweet craveings. That's it. T :thup: :thup: hen he was attacked, called a moron, and as most of you can see finally left the forum. Too bad too it was very intersting when he was still posting.
I agree with him. I've been a totally devout atkins follower. I've given up, and that's what it is.. is giving up, chocolate and anything with white flour or sugar 3 years ago. Yes I lost weight very quickly but sorry, weak as I am I couldn't stick to that strict a WOE. Now I'm allowing myself some extras and if eating a 15 carb "candy bar" soothes whatever it soothes and takes me a little longer to get to my goal then so be it. I think tolerance and acceptence are great things. Do what works for you but tolerate if not accept what is working for me.

[Lisa N]

Sorry...

Suggesting that someone on low carb exclude legal low carb foods such as veggies so that they can have chocolate and still stay under their 20 gram allowance (or however high their carb level is) is not following low carb and is generally very bad advice and that's what people were reacting to. There is no low carb plan that I am aware of that allows sugar in any form because of it's high glycemic value and total lack of nutritional value.
There are also quite a few low carb chocolates out there that rival any regular chocolate bar in taste and texture, so why eat the stuff that's full of sugar instead? Besides...feeding an addiction is the surest way to ensure that you will never overcome it.
Low carb isn't just about losing weight, it's also about good health and developing healthy eating habits so that once you reach your weight loss goal, you can keep the weight off for life.

[Jaggedpeac]

I have no idea what an aero bar is. I have a snack everynow and then of a bar that is called Pure De-lite. It is sugar free and only 15 carbs. I also have a Michelob ultra light beer that has 2.6 grams of carbs. If I eat right, meat and veggies and want to have either one of them then it's not wrong. If it allows me to maintain my good eating habits and still have them then no one can say it's not right. I am not saying everyone has to have either of them, I'm not saying it won't take me longer to get to the goal I want but that's okay. It's a much healthier way of snacking. I remember going to an Inches Away meeting years ago and the group being asked if you were stranded on a desert island what three foods would you take. These women all said well I'd take lettuce,fruit, and chicken. Come on we didn't get to where we are by eating lettuce,fruit and skinless chicken. I said chocolate chip cookie dough. Be real. They were trying to help us find out what were our danger foods. I thought the whole idea of Atkins or any other plan is it's a way of life, and to think you're never going to have a beer or a chocolate bar is setting yourself up for failure. Finding alternative replacements that are healthier choices is more realistic. I'm going to have my beer, and my low-carb chocolate, it's working for me and that's really all that matters.

[Lisa N]

Nobody said you couldn't have beer and sugar-free chocolate once in a while. Just don't do it to the exclusion of other healthier foods or in place of them as the original poster was suggesting. If you're willing to trade slower weight loss and possible stalls to have those things, it's entirely up to you.
Am I never going to have a beer again? Probably not. I wasn't much of a beer drinker to start with, so giving it up on a permanent basis is no hardship for me.
Chocolate? The sugar-free kind as an occasional treat, but not on a daily or even weekly basis. As many people here on this forum can attest to, having those things too often can stop your weight loss in its tracks.
After nearly 2 years on low carb, I find that I no longer miss or even want those things that I thought would break my heart to give up such as bread and cookies. I tried a bite of one of my daughter's dinner rolls at a restaurant a while back and spit it out; it didn't even taste good to me anymore. Tastes do change.

[amieK]

I'm finding the process of letting go of old foods is a slow one.

If I start thinking of some foods as forbidden, I start obsessing over them and want them even more. On the other hand, I have to be careful to recognize some foods can be triggers for cravings and I have to proceed with caution.

Lately I have established "The Rule of One" regarding non-LC foods. I may have one cookie, one chocolate or one bite of whatever it is I'm yearning for, and that's it. But first I have to engage in some inner dialogue to determine if it's what I really want. Oftentimes it isn't. This has worked well this past week. The challenge will be when I hit the PMS phase of my cycle.

Regards,
amie

PS When I first read it, I thought Toner's original post to start this thread was a sarcastic jibe, trying to provoke a reaction. - but hey, that's just my interpretation. On re-reading it, perhaps there was some degree of sincerity at first. Didn't last long though IMHO.

[fcranmer]

Great thread - I think that its healthy to have some debate on the forum. However, I agree lets keep it to debate without the personal insults. I was enjoying Toner's input until the name-calling started - even if he did feel that it was retalitory - it just went over the top in the end.

I too have fears about the lo-carb WOE, I don't find it easy, I try to convince myself that I must give it my best shot. After all using food the way I have for the past 25 years (since I have been responsible for my own meals) has only seen my weight spiralling ever upwards, and my feelings of energy loss and unhappiness ever growing.

I think one point that Toner and some others mailing failed to recognise is that - regardless of issues of healthy v unhealthy, and even if some of us are virtuous and others are bingers - it is our choice.

We are drawn to Low-carbing because we can (within the guidelines) adjust it to fit our own bodies, lifestyles and expectations.

I value the support that the forum gives, and look forward to more healthy or for that matter unhealthy debate.

By the Way an Aero is a British chocolate bar - its filled with tiny little bubble holes (looks like a honeycomb inside). They market it by saying it is 'the lighter way to enjoy chocolate'. (and exactly who are they trying to kid)

Ironic really that Toners original premise was so full of holes!


fx :wave:

[amieK]

Ironic really that Toners original premise was so full of holes!

Good one fcranmer!

BTW we do have Aero bars in Canada too! Not that I would know much about that, oh no, not I , good LC girl that I am! LOL

amie
:wave:

[hollypc]

Well I guess I do what Toner does.
I do not eat veggies. I never have and never will. If I look at them I want to throw up. I have tried to eat them and I can't.

I technically am on the Atkins diet but with a few differences.
I eat meat for lunch and dinner. I have low carb bread I eat with the meals if I want. I drink water and diet ice tea. I will eat candy or cheesecake or a muffin to make up my 20 grams a day.

I use my 20 grams of carbs a day on what I want, not on veggies. I have lost 10 pounds in 7 days without exercising. I had my first workout at Curves today and plan on going there 3 times a week.

I do not plan on making this a way of life like many of you. To me this is a diet, the fastest way to lose some weight for the summer time.

Now don't get me wrong, if you want to live your life like this then that is awesome. I am chooseing not to.

I weight 148 pounds now and I don't look like I weight that much, I am in a size 7. I am on this diet to drop my pregnancy weight and to get back down to a size 1 or 3, 2 months probably on this diet.

I plan on sticking to eating low carb during the week at work, but there is no way I am not going to eat junk again and even potatoes and such. I plan on keeping it low during the week and eating what I want on the weekends. I will probably have to go to the gym 5 days a week, but that should keep my weight down.

That is what I am doing and I know a lot of people aren't going to agree with that. But that is what I am doing.

More power to Toner to do it the way he wants.

[Lisa N]

Yep...you'll probably lose weight, but don't kid yourself into thinking that getting your 20 grams of carbs from low carb junk food is healthy or doing your body any favors.
Vitamins can do some good, but they are not nearly the quality that you would get from eating veggies.

[DaveT]

Hey Toner..there's nothing wrong with an occasional sweet treat...it's not the end of the world or your diet...actually I quite fancy an Aero myself!

[orzabelle]

Is Toner still around? I sure hope so! This thread was HILARIOUS! The funniest thing toner wrote was about him being 5'10 with black hair and blue eyes, which 'don't hurt either.' I was on the flooooor! Has to be some young, clever girl at her father's computer.

I'm not even going to comment on anything else that Toner said, except that Aero bars are these delicious chocolate bars that are full of air pocket bubbles, making it light. MMMMmmmmmm! Guess what, though, Toner, in case you're still around. I'm 5'8, and I lost 35 lbs. on low-carb going on 9 years ago, and all of it stayed off. I've had my fair share of chocolate bars since then, but never have I gorged! And I don't think I'll be starting any time soon.

[amtuamor22]

[I think the best approach to the Atkins diet is to treat it as a fast working diet to accomplish your weight goals, and then to switch to a truly healthy WOE, which includes low fat foods and moderate carbs. Basically, anything in moderation. Anyone who says they never have cravings is lying.

If you plan on staying on Atkins for the rest of your life, you need to do some more research about healthy ways of eating. High fat diets are bad for your heart. Look at ol' Atkins himself, barely made through his last heart attack. Be real folks. [/B]


I strongly disagree. Low Fat/High Carb is :thdown: . The wrong way to go. Healthy eating to me is eating meats, veggies, and fruits and sticking to non processed foods. Natural foods are good for you.

I will stay Low Carb forever. Thank you very much!!! ;)

[MocaGyrl]

I appreciated reading this thread, bc, let's face it, this is a very controversial plan & as many pros as there are, there are cons. While I don't condone insults, I do give Toner credit for expressing thoughts that many ppl may have, but are afraid to say! I applaud Holly for being totally honest here, f being pc, about why she's on (modified) Atkins. I hear ya! My weight was never a problem, I was always thin or well within a healthy weight. I have always been active, exercised 4X a week for 15+ years. I KNOW why I gained weight. It was snack foods. Too much chocolate, chips, cookies, microwave popcorn, desserts. All of that undisciplined snacking as though there was no tomorrow caught up with me & I needed to lose the excess pounds. This is the 1st time in my life I've ever dieted. I never restricted my eating before. When I stall, I know why - I'm not follwing it 100% to a T. I started this as a test, wanted to see whether it could work. This has been an interesting experiment for me. I crave sugar carbs, plain & simple, & it's wonderful (& challenging!) to have this knowledge about myself! I've learned a lot about health doing this plan, & I intend on always chosing the right carbs for me forever. For some, incorporating high carbs back into their life again may mean having some french fries again, but for me, right now, it's eating some chocolate (I LOVE Aero bars, eh! ;) ) when I want without it meaning weight gain (read: the end of the world). While I may not be in the board majority with why I'm doing Atkins, I still can recognize what struggles & success this plan can bring. :)

[mrfreddy]

just stumbled onto this thread.... don't have time to read it all, but I am wondering, did anyone point out to toner that the studies done by AHA or whoever that claim to show the ill effects of eating steak, cheese, mayonaise, etc. are in fact studies of high fat/high carb diets, not actually studies of high fat/LOW carb diets?

Atkins made the point over and over again that it's the carbs in those studies that are the culprit.

Take away the carbs, and the steak becomes harmless, and indeed, quite beneficial.

Ymu yum, pass the bernaise...

[Shelly13]

Just to clarify. Fruit....is a specific botancial term in plant anatomy. It is loosely defined as a part of a plant that surrounds the seeds...and its purpose is to distribute seeds for propgation purposes. A fruit can be a papery winged plant part....like a maple seed (helicopter), or a sweet fleshy thing....like a raspberry. For simplicity purposes, you can consider that plants we regularly eat as fruits if the are produced from the flower of a plant, and are not the seeds:

tomatoes--medium carb
peppers (hot & sweet)--low carb
eggplant--low carb
zucchini--low carb
green, wax beans--low carb
okra--low carb
watermelon--hi
muskmelon--hi
tomatillos--low
pears--hi
grapes--hi
apples--hi
strawberries, blueberries, raspberries--fairly low carb
many of these are very low carb!

the veggies, include plant parts that are not the "fruit", but could be the root, stem or leaves:

potatoes
sweet potatoes
radishes
spinach
greens (mustard, etc)
lettuce
celery
swiss chard
beets

Seeds: depending whether nutrients are stored as starch or fat determines carb levels:
corn--hi carb
wheat--hi carb
oats--hi carb
flax--low carb
walnuts--low
pecans--low
macademia-low
hazelnut--low
brazil--low
almond--low
peanut--medium low


So....don't get hung up!