Question on the Sheiko Beginner program : Weights : Active Low-Carber Forums

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Pierre Hon

Thu, Nov-14-02, 21:04

I'm going to give this program a try, and I was wondering if
anyone could tell me what Squat scissors are. Did a google
search and came up basically empty. It's quite possible I
missed something, however.

Any help would be appreciated.

Pierre

Keith Hobm

Thu, Nov-14-02, 21:04

In article <c04f17d7.0211141217.3709052a@posting.google.com>,
phoneyman@telus.net (Pierre Honeyman) wrote:

> I'm going to give this program a try, and I was wondering if
> anyone could tell me what Squat scissors are. Did a google
> search and came up basically empty. It's quite possible I
> missed something, however.
>
> Any help would be appreciated.

Squat scissors are lunges. Coach Sheiko says they can be done
a number of ways.

The weight can be held in front in the clean position or in
the back squat position or overhead. You can alternate legs or
do all the reps on one leg and then the other. (You'll note
the convention is normally '5+5' indicating how many are done
in each position). So you can basically do them ballistically
as a snatch or more conventionally as a lunge.

Personally I prefer to do them as the split snatch and snatch
the weight overhead each time. This also help my rotator cuff.
I basically bring the weight down to the hang position and
then snatch it back up. I alternate legs on each rep.

HTH.

--
Keith Hobman

Watson Dav

Thu, Nov-14-02, 21:04

On 14 Nov 2002 12:17:30 -0800, phoneyman@telus.net (Pierre
Honeyman) wrote:

>I'm going to give this program a try, and I was wondering if
>anyone could tell me what Squat scissors are. Did a google
>search and came up basically empty. It's quite possible I
>missed something, however.

Keith will correct me on this but Squat Scissors are basically
lunges. I swapped those out with split squats (which is
basically a lunge but you don't go back to the feet together
starting position.)

Watson (the pencil neck) Davis

Whitster

Thu, Nov-14-02, 21:04

"Keith Hobman" <khobman@SPAMTRAPsasktel.net> wrote in message
news:khobman-1411021515530001@192.168.1.100...
> In article
> <c04f17d7.0211141217.3709052a@posting.google.com>,
> phoneyman@telus.net (Pierre Honeyman) wrote:
>
> > I'm going to give this program a try, and I was wondering
> > if anyone could tell me what Squat scissors are. Did a
> > google search and came up basically empty. It's quite
> > possible I missed something, however.
> >
> > Any help would be appreciated.
>
> Squat scissors are lunges. Coach Sheiko says they can be
> done a number of
ways.
>
> The weight can be held in front in the clean position or in
> the back squat position or overhead. You can alternate legs
> or do all the reps on one leg and then the other. (You'll
> note the convention is normally '5+5' indicating how many
> are done in each position). So you can basically do them
> ballistically as a snatch or more conventionally as a lunge.
>
> Personally I prefer to do them as the split snatch

i could make the observation that the term "split snatch" is
redundant.

but i would NEVER be that crude

not me

whit

and snatch the weight
> overhead each time. This also help my rotator cuff. I
> basically bring the weight down to the hang position and
> then snatch it back up. I alternate legs on each rep.
>
> HTH.
>
> --
> Keith Hobman

Keith Hobm

Thu, Nov-14-02, 21:04

In article <ar1501$ea2hv$1@ID-152085.news.dfncis.de>,
"whitster" <whit@whit.com> wrote:

> "Keith Hobman" <khobman@SPAMTRAPsasktel.net> wrote in
> message news:khobman-1411021515530001@192.168.1.100...
> > In article
> > <c04f17d7.0211141217.3709052a@posting.google.com>,
> > phoneyman@telus.net (Pierre Honeyman) wrote:
> >
> > > I'm going to give this program a try, and I was
> > > wondering if anyone could tell me what Squat scissors
> > > are. Did a google search and came up basically empty.
> > > It's quite possible I missed something, however.
> > >
> > > Any help would be appreciated.
> >
> > Squat scissors are lunges. Coach Sheiko says they can be
> > done a number of
> ways.
> >
> > The weight can be held in front in the clean position or
> > in the back squat position or overhead. You can alternate
> > legs or do all the reps on one leg and then the other.
> > (You'll note the convention is normally '5+5' indicating
> > how many are done in each position). So you can basically
> > do them ballistically as a snatch or more conventionally
> > as a lunge.
> >
> > Personally I prefer to do them as the split snatch
>
> i could make the observation that the term "split snatch" is
> redundant.
>
> but i would NEVER be that crude
>
> not me

LOL!

--
Keith Hobman

Pierre Hon

Fri, Nov-15-02, 14:02

Thanks for the responses. I appreciate the help.

Pierre

Will

Sun, Nov-17-02, 21:01

Keith Hobm

Sun, Nov-17-02, 21:01

In article
<satterwill-9534A9.15234117112002@news.fu-berlin.de>, Will
<satterwill@netscape.net> wrote:

> In article
> <c04f17d7.0211141217.3709052a@posting.google.com>,
> phoneyman@telus.net (Pierre Honeyman) wrote:
>
> > I'm going to give this program a try, and I was wondering
> > if anyone could tell me what Squat scissors are. Did a
> > google search and came up basically empty. It's quite
> > possible I missed something, however.
> >
> > Any help would be appreciated.
> >
> > Pierre
>
> I'm also thinking about giving this program a shot. Are
> there any guidelines to picking weights for the assistance
> exercises?
>
> And does he really mean what I think he means prescribing 5
> sets of 10 of flat dumbbell "flies"? Somehow that just
> doesn't seem to fit with the whole philosophy of the
> program...

Yes, he does. I agree with your assessment and normally do
something different.

The only assistance I worry about weight on are good mornings.
Otherwise I just do enough that the reps are challenging
without going near exhaustion. And I normally do things like
JM Presses instead of the flys.

--
Keith Hobman

Will

Sun, Nov-17-02, 21:01

In article <khobman-1711021914590001@192.168.1.100>,
khobman@SPAMTRAPsasktel.net (Keith Hobman) wrote:

> In article
> <satterwill-9534A9.15234117112002@news.fu-berlin.de>, Will
> <satterwill@netscape.net> wrote:
>
> > In article
> > <c04f17d7.0211141217.3709052a@posting.google.com>,
> > phoneyman@telus.net (Pierre Honeyman) wrote:
> >
> > > I'm going to give this program a try, and I was
> > > wondering if anyone could tell me what Squat scissors
> > > are. Did a google search and came up basically empty.
> > > It's quite possible I missed something, however.
> > >
> > > Any help would be appreciated.
> > >
> > > Pierre
> >
> > I'm also thinking about giving this program a shot. Are
> > there any guidelines to picking weights for the assistance
> > exercises?
> >
> > And does he really mean what I think he means prescribing
> > 5 sets of 10 of flat dumbbell "flies"? Somehow that just
> > doesn't seem to fit with the whole philosophy of the
> > program...
>
> Yes, he does. I agree with your assessment and normally do
> something different.
>
> The only assistance I worry about weight on are good
> mornings. Otherwise I just do enough that the reps are
> challenging without going near exhaustion. And I normally do
> things like JM Presses instead of the flys.

Thanks. So how do you pick your weight for the good mornings?

At the moment I am much happier with my bench than I am with
my squat or deadlift, and feel like my upper back is also a
weak point. So I am thinking of substituting either rows or
pullups for the flies (as well as split snatches for the
scissors). Any thoughts which would be more likely to help
with deadlifts (if either)? At the moment I deadlift
conventionally but may experiment with sumo. I have relatively
long legs and short arms, but am not sure if this means one is
likely to suit me more than the other. I can lift more
conventionally right now but that may just be lack of practice
with sumo.

-Will

Wayne S. H

Mon, Nov-18-02, 06:58

Will wrote:

> In article <khobman-1711021914590001@192.168.1.100>,
> khobman@SPAMTRAPsasktel.net (Keith Hobman) wrote:
>
>> In article
>> <satterwill-9534A9.15234117112002@news.fu-berlin.de>, Will
>> <satterwill@netscape.net> wrote:
>>
>> > In article
>> > <c04f17d7.0211141217.3709052a@posting.google.com>,
>> > phoneyman@telus.net (Pierre
>> > Honeyman) wrote:
>> >
>> > > I'm going to give this program a try, and I was
>> > > wondering if anyone could tell me what Squat scissors
>> > > are. Did a google search and came up basically empty.
>> > > It's quite possible I missed something, however.
>> > >
>> > > Any help would be appreciated.
>> > >
>> > > Pierre
>> >
>> > I'm also thinking about giving this program a shot. Are
>> > there any guidelines to picking weights for the
>> > assistance exercises?
>> >
>> > And does he really mean what I think he means prescribing
>> > 5 sets of 10 of flat dumbbell "flies"? Somehow that just
>> > doesn't seem to fit with the whole philosophy of the
>> > program...
>>
>> Yes, he does. I agree with your assessment and normally do
>> something different.
>>
>> The only assistance I worry about weight on are good
>> mornings. Otherwise I just do enough that the reps are
>> challenging without going near exhaustion. And I normally
>> do things like JM Presses instead of the flys.
>
>
> Thanks. So how do you pick your weight for the good
> mornings?

<Not Keith> Use the method of gradual progressive overload.
Try a light weight, become convinced it's too light, add a
bit, and keep going. It might take a few workouts to find the
right level.

> At the moment I am much happier with my bench than I am with
> my squat or deadlift, and feel like my upper back is also a
> weak point. So I am thinking of substituting either rows or
> pullups for the flies (as well as split snatches for the
> scissors). Any thoughts which would be more likely to help
> with deadlifts (if either)? At the moment I deadlift
> conventionally but may experiment with sumo. I have
> relatively long legs and short arms, but am not sure if this
> means one is likely to suit me more than the other. I can
> lift more conventionally right now but that may just be lack
> of practice with sumo.

Do you have any shoulder difficulties with bench or overhead
movements?

-Wayne

Keith Hobm

Mon, Nov-18-02, 14:03

Keith Hobm

Mon, Nov-18-02, 14:03

In article
<satterwill-886971.18241717112002@news.fu-berlin.de>, Will
<satterwill@netscape.net> wrote:

> In article <khobman-1711021914590001@192.168.1.100>,
> khobman@SPAMTRAPsasktel.net (Keith Hobman) wrote:
>
> > In article
> > <satterwill-9534A9.15234117112002@news.fu-berlin.de>, Will
> > <satterwill@netscape.net> wrote:
> >
> > > In article
> > > <c04f17d7.0211141217.3709052a@posting.google.com>,
> > > phoneyman@telus.net (Pierre Honeyman) wrote:
> > >
> > > > I'm going to give this program a try, and I was
> > > > wondering if anyone could tell me what Squat scissors
> > > > are. Did a google search and came up basically empty.
> > > > It's quite possible I missed something, however.
> > > >
> > > > Any help would be appreciated.
> > > >
> > > > Pierre
> > >
> > > I'm also thinking about giving this program a shot. Are
> > > there any guidelines to picking weights for the
> > > assistance exercises?
> > >
> > > And does he really mean what I think he means
> > > prescribing 5 sets of 10 of flat dumbbell "flies"?
> > > Somehow that just doesn't seem to fit with the whole
> > > philosophy of the program...
> >
> > Yes, he does. I agree with your assessment and normally do
> > something different.
> >
> > The only assistance I worry about weight on are good
> > mornings. Otherwise I just do enough that the reps are
> > challenging without going near exhaustion. And I normally
> > do things like JM Presses instead of the flys.
>
>
> Thanks. So how do you pick your weight for the good
> mornings?
>
> At the moment I am much happier with my bench than I am with
> my squat or deadlift, and feel like my upper back is also a
> weak point. So I am thinking of substituting either rows or
> pullups for the flies (as well as split snatches for the
> scissors). Any thoughts which would be more likely to help
> with deadlifts (if either)? At the moment I deadlift
> conventionally but may experiment with sumo. I have
> relatively long legs and short arms, but am not sure if this
> means one is likely to suit me more than the other. I can
> lift more conventionally right now but that may just be lack
> of practice with sumo.
>

OOps. Forgot to answer the rest of questions.

Rows are better than pull-ups for a powerlifter, IMO. Nothing
wrong with adding 5x5 in rows with a heavy weight 2-3 times
per week, especially in the base period.

Sumo is much more technical than conventional - it took me
almost 2 years both to get myself physically ready for a heavy
sumo and to develop my technique in the lift. And I picked the
brains of some really good sumo lifters, most notably Jason
Burnell, who really helped a lot.

What helps your deadlift depends where you are weak in the
deadlift. However, Sheiko addresses that with his program and
his use of pulls to the knee and pulls off the pins. So
whether you are weak off the floor or at lockout you work
that range.

Short arms and long legs are a difficult combination. The
conventional wisdom is that long-limbed lifters are more
suited to conventional and long-torso lifters are better
suited to sumo. I don't know about that. My problem is that my
limb length and torso length is pretty much average. I may be
a little longer in the limbs, especially the legs, than some
lifters. At 5'10" I wear a 32" inseam pant. So being pretty
average its hard to know what other lifters are feeling when
they lift.

Generally though I consider the short back a huge advantage
when lifting and think you should use it. To my way of
thinking the sumo and the wide stance squat offer much more
leverage and work best for most powerlifters. But as I say, my
thinking may be flawed because it is based on my own
experience with average leverages.

When doing the true sumo you want the distance between the
vertical path of the bar and the vertical line of your lumbar
to the ground to be as short as possible. In other words - get
your hips into the bar for leverage. In order to do this I
don't even think of lifting the bar at the start of the lift.
Instead I try and keep my body as upright as I can and drive
my hips into the bar. If I succeed the bar just kind of pops
off the ground. If I don't I feel like I'm doing a wide-stance
semi-stiff legged deadlift. Not a good feeling.

If you go to the very last picture in my powerlifting
album on Yahoo

http://photos.yahoo.com/khobman800

you can see the end of a good deadlift for me. The position of
my body here as I prepare to lockout (the angle of lean)
hasn't changed since the setup. The bar has been lifted
through leverage and lower body strength with the lower back
acting as a stabilizer. I now use hips and lower back to
finish the lift.

The best exercises for this techique are the good morning for
keeping the back locked and the low box squat for the start. I
think Sheiko uses the leg press to work the start and I'm
trying that this cycle - I'll report back on how effective I
feel it is in March. Doing the leg press is a little humbling
for me since I've bad-mouthed this exercise so much. But I'm
finding it works good for explosiveness - I can let the weight
drop and then catch it and reverse it as explosively as I can.

HTH.

--
Keith Hobman

Will

Mon, Nov-18-02, 14:03

In article <Xns92CA47F461B308ch@130.133.1.4>,
"Wayne S. Hill" <hillw4@asme.org> wrote:

> Will wrote:

[snip]

> > At the moment I am much happier with my bench than I am
> > with my squat or deadlift, and feel like my upper back is
> > also a weak point. So I am thinking of substituting either
> > rows or pullups for the flies (as well as split snatches
> > for the scissors). Any thoughts which would be more likely
> > to help with deadlifts (if either)? At the moment I
> > deadlift conventionally but may experiment with sumo. I
> > have relatively long legs and short arms, but am not sure
> > if this means one is likely to suit me more than the
> > other. I can lift more conventionally right now but that
> > may just be lack of practice with sumo.
>
> Do you have any shoulder difficulties with bench or overhead
> movements?

Not sure quite what you are asking. In terms of shoulder pain
/ injuries, no difficulties whatsoever. My overhead press is
maybe a little weak relative to my bench (195 [guesstimate] vs
330) but I do the OH press more or less bodybuilder style
(that is, no attempt to give myself a mechanical advantage)
whereas on the bench I use a decent arch, pull my shoulders
back, and spread the bar. If I do a lot of heavy benching in a
workout it does seem like my deltoids give out way before my
pectoral muscles though.

Lee Michae

Mon, Nov-18-02, 14:03

"Keith Hobman" wrote

> Doing the leg press is a little humbling for me since I've
> bad-mouthed this exercise so much.

LOL

Is the apocolypse here now?? Keith is now doing girlie moves.
I trust after two ro three months of these buffing, toning and
"lengthening" moves, you will be a full fledged pretty boy.
Time to start the tanning session and to buy yourself a little
itsy bitsy pair of posing trunks!

Tom Mahone

Mon, Nov-18-02, 14:03

Keith Hobman wrote:
> In article
> <satterwill-886971.18241717112002@news.fu-berlin.de>, Will
> <satterwill@netscape.net> wrote:
>
>
>> In article <khobman-1711021914590001@192.168.1.100>,
>> khobman@SPAMTRAPsasktel.net (Keith Hobman) wrote:
>>
>>
>>>In article
>>><satterwill-9534A9.15234117112002@news.fu-berlin.de>, Will
>>><satterwill@netscape.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>In article
>>>><c04f17d7.0211141217.3709052a@posting.google.com>,
>>>>phoneyman@telus.net (Pierre Honeyman) wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>I'm going to give this program a try, and I was wondering
>>>>>if anyone could tell me what Squat scissors are. Did a
>>>>>google search and came up basically empty. It's quite
>>>>>possible I missed something, however.
>>>>>
>>>>>Any help would be appreciated.
>>>>>
>>>>>Pierre
>>>>
>>>>I'm also thinking about giving this program a shot. Are
>>>>there any guidelines to picking weights for the assistance
>>>>exercises?
>>>>
>>>>And does he really mean what I think he means prescribing
>>>>5 sets of 10 of flat dumbbell "flies"? Somehow that just
>>>>doesn't seem to fit with the whole philosophy of the
>>>>program...
>>>
>>>Yes, he does. I agree with your assessment and normally do
>>>something different.
>>>
>>>The only assistance I worry about weight on are good
>>>mornings. Otherwise I just do enough that the reps are
>>>challenging without going near exhaustion. And I normally
>>>do things like JM Presses instead of the flys.
>>
>>
>>Thanks. So how do you pick your weight for the good
>>mornings?
>>
>>At the moment I am much happier with my bench than I am with
>>my squat or deadlift, and feel like my upper back is also a
>>weak point. So I am thinking of substituting either rows or
>>pullups for the flies (as well as split snatches for the
>>scissors). Any thoughts which would be more likely to help
>>with deadlifts (if either)? At the moment I deadlift
>>conventionally but may experiment with sumo. I have
>>relatively long legs and short arms, but am not sure if this
>>means one is likely to suit me more than the other. I can
>>lift more conventionally right now but that may just be lack
>>of practice with sumo.
>>
>
>
> OOps. Forgot to answer the rest of questions.
>
> Rows are better than pull-ups for a powerlifter, IMO.
> Nothing wrong with adding 5x5 in rows with a heavy weight
> 2-3 times per week, especially in the base period.
>
> Sumo is much more technical than conventional - it took me
> almost 2 years both to get myself physically ready for a
> heavy sumo and to develop my technique in the lift. And I
> picked the brains of some really good sumo lifters, most
> notably Jason Burnell, who really helped a lot.
>
> What helps your deadlift depends where you are weak in the
> deadlift. However, Sheiko addresses that with his program
> and his use of pulls to the knee and pulls off the pins. So
> whether you are weak off the floor or at lockout you work
> that range.
>
> Short arms and long legs are a difficult combination. The
> conventional wisdom is that long-limbed lifters are more
> suited to conventional and long-torso lifters are better
> suited to sumo. I don't know about that. My problem is that
> my limb length and torso length is pretty much average. I
> may be a little longer in the limbs, especially the legs,
> than some lifters. At 5'10" I wear a 32" inseam pant. So
> being pretty average its hard to know what other lifters are
> feeling when they lift.
>
> Generally though I consider the short back a huge advantage
> when lifting and think you should use it. To my way of
> thinking the sumo and the wide stance squat offer much more
> leverage and work best for most powerlifters. But as I say,
> my thinking may be flawed because it is based on my own
> experience with average leverages.
>
> When doing the true sumo you want the distance between the
> vertical path of the bar and the vertical line of your
> lumbar to the ground to be as short as possible. In other
> words - get your hips into the bar for leverage. In order to
> do this I don't even think of lifting the bar at the start
> of the lift. Instead I try and keep my body as upright as I
> can and drive my hips into the bar. If I succeed the bar
> just kind of pops off the ground. If I don't I feel like I'm
> doing a wide-stance semi-stiff legged deadlift. Not a good
> feeling.
>
> If you go to the very last picture in my powerlifting album
> on Yahoo
>
> http://photos.yahoo.com/khobman800
>

Is there some right arm biceps flexing going on there?

> you can see the end of a good deadlift for me. The position
> of my body here as I prepare to lockout (the angle of lean)
> hasn't changed since the setup. The bar has been lifted
> through leverage and lower body strength with the lower back
> acting as a stabilizer. I now use hips and lower back to
> finish the lift.
>
> The best exercises for this techique are the good morning
> for keeping the back locked and the low box squat for the
> start. I think Sheiko uses the leg press to work the start
> and I'm trying that this cycle - I'll report back on how
> effective I feel it is in March. Doing the leg press is a
> little humbling for me since I've bad-mouthed this exercise
> so much. But I'm finding it works good for explosiveness - I
> can let the weight drop and then catch it and reverse it as
> explosively as I can.
>
> HTH.

Will

Mon, Nov-18-02, 14:03

In article <khobman-1811020838150001@192.168.0.2>,
khobman@sasktelNOSPAM.net (Keith Hobman) wrote:

[snip]

> OOps. Forgot to answer the rest of questions.
>
> Rows are better than pull-ups for a powerlifter, IMO.
> Nothing wrong with adding 5x5 in rows with a heavy weight
> 2-3 times per week, especially in the base period.

Thanks. That definitely helps.

> Sumo is much more technical than conventional - it took me
> almost 2 years both to get myself physically ready for a
> heavy sumo and to develop my technique in the lift. And I
> picked the brains of some really good sumo lifters, most
> notably Jason Burnell, who really helped a lot.
>
> What helps your deadlift depends where you are weak in the
> deadlift. However, Sheiko addresses that with his program
> and his use of pulls to the knee and pulls off the pins. So
> whether you are weak off the floor or at lockout you work
> that range.

Thanks. That reminds me of one more question I had about the
Sheiko routine - deadlift from boxes means with the weight on
boxes (or the bar on pins) for a reduced ROM, not me standing
on boxes for increased ROM, right?

> Short arms and long legs are a difficult combination. The
> conventional wisdom is that long-limbed lifters are more
> suited to conventional and long-torso lifters are better
> suited to sumo. I don't know about that. My problem is that
> my limb length and torso length is pretty much average. I
> may be a little longer in the limbs, especially the legs,
> than some lifters. At 5'10" I wear a 32" inseam pant. So
> being pretty average its hard to know what other lifters are
> feeling when they lift.

Hmm. Looks like I have it pretty bad for deadlifting. I'm 6'0"
and wear 34" pants, which suggests are torsos are pretty much
the same length and my extra 2" are entirely in the legs.
Conversely I think my arms are way shorter than yours. It
looks like in the 260 kg 1st - Calgary 02 photo you are pretty
close to lockout, and there is still some 5-hole above the
bar. For me at lockout the bar is a good inch above...uh...the
base of my unit.

Anyone with my freakish proportions care to comment on what
works for them?

> Generally though I consider the short back a huge advantage
> when lifting and think you should use it. To my way of
> thinking the sumo and the wide stance squat offer much more
> leverage and work best for most powerlifters. But as I say,
> my thinking may be flawed because it is based on my own
> experience with average leverages.
>
> When doing the true sumo you want the distance between the
> vertical path of the bar and the vertical line of your
> lumbar to the ground to be as short as possible. In other
> words - get your hips into the bar for leverage. In order to
> do this I don't even think of lifting the bar at the start
> of the lift. Instead I try and keep my body as upright as I
> can and drive my hips into the bar. If I succeed the bar
> just kind of pops off the ground. If I don't I feel like I'm
> doing a wide-stance semi-stiff legged deadlift. Not a good
> feeling.
>
> If you go to the very last picture in my powerlifting album
> on Yahoo
>
> http://photos.yahoo.com/khobman800
>
> you can see the end of a good deadlift for me. The position
> of my body here as I prepare to lockout (the angle of lean)
> hasn't changed since the setup. The bar has been lifted
> through leverage and lower body strength with the lower back
> acting as a stabilizer. I now use hips and lower back to
> finish the lift.
>
> The best exercises for this techique are the good morning
> for keeping the back locked and the low box squat for the
> start. I think Sheiko uses the leg press to work the start
> and I'm trying that this cycle - I'll report back on how
> effective I feel it is in March. Doing the leg press is a
> little humbling for me since I've bad-mouthed this exercise
> so much. But I'm finding it works good for explosiveness - I
> can let the weight drop and then catch it and reverse it as
> explosively as I can.
>
> HTH.

Very much. Thanks.

Keith Hobm

Mon, Nov-18-02, 14:03

In article <3DD92310.4070505@epix.net>, Tom Mahoney
<tmaho201SPAMMAR@epix.net> wrote:

snip
> >
> > If you go to the very last picture in my powerlifting
> > album on Yahoo
> >
> > http://photos.yahoo.com/khobman800
> >
>
> Is there some right arm biceps flexing going on there?

Sure looks like it, doesn't it. I try not to, but in that
picture it appears I am.

One other factor - neither of my arms will completely
straighten. My elbows are in really bad shape from years of
sports - in particular pitching baseball and tackling in
rugby. One of the reasons I quit playing first division rugby
was when I lost half a step my arms took a beating. It seems
like I was always taking the tackle on the arm instead of the
shoulder, mostly I think because my habits were still formed
thinking I was fast.

So it could be either. When the other lifters and meet
director felt there was a mistake made by one of the judges in
not giving me the lockout on my second bench the judge in
question commented, "But his arms looked straight in the
hand-off."

Garry, the meet director, commented to the judge, "Watch
his deadlift. His arms won't straighten with 600 lbs on the
end of them."

This was just said in commentary BTW. Nobody was getting on
the judges case, least of all me. When one of the people
watching the meet made a crack at the judges I told them they
were the best in Canada - vey consistent. Not making the lift
was my mistake and it clearly shows in the picture where I
don't get the bar straight. One red for that and one for the
questionable call on the lockout, where the judgement is a
fine, fine line.

--
Keith Hobman

Keith Hobm

Mon, Nov-18-02, 14:03

In article
<satterwill-7B33B0.10325518112002@news.fu-berlin.de>, Will
<satterwill@netscape.net> wrote:

> In article <khobman-1811020838150001@192.168.0.2>,
> khobman@sasktelNOSPAM.net (Keith Hobman) wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
> > OOps. Forgot to answer the rest of questions.
> >
> > Rows are better than pull-ups for a powerlifter, IMO.
> > Nothing wrong with adding 5x5 in rows with a heavy weight
> > 2-3 times per week, especially in the base period.
>
> Thanks. That definitely helps.
>
> > Sumo is much more technical than conventional - it took me
> > almost 2 years both to get myself physically ready for a
> > heavy sumo and to develop my technique in the lift. And I
> > picked the brains of some really good sumo lifters, most
> > notably Jason Burnell, who really helped a lot.
> >
> > What helps your deadlift depends where you are weak in the
> > deadlift. However, Sheiko addresses that with his program
> > and his use of pulls to the knee and pulls off the pins.
> > So whether you are weak off the floor or at lockout you
> > work that range.
>
> Thanks. That reminds me of one more question I had about the
> Sheiko routine - deadlift from boxes means with the weight
> on boxes (or the bar on pins) for a reduced ROM, not me
> standing on boxes for increased ROM, right?

Both are used. The one with the lower percentages is where you
stand on the box - the higher percentage is where the weight
is on the box. I just do these out of the power rack.
>
> > Short arms and long legs are a difficult combination. The
> > conventional wisdom is that long-limbed lifters are more
> > suited to conventional and long-torso lifters are better
> > suited to sumo. I don't know about that. My problem is
> > that my limb length and torso length is pretty much
> > average. I may be a little longer in the limbs, especially
> > the legs, than some lifters. At 5'10" I wear a 32" inseam
> > pant. So being pretty average its hard to know what other
> > lifters are feeling when they lift.
>
> Hmm. Looks like I have it pretty bad for deadlifting. I'm
> 6'0" and wear 34" pants, which suggests are torsos are
> pretty much the same length and my extra 2" are entirely in
> the legs. Conversely I think my arms are way shorter than
> yours. It looks like in the 260 kg 1st - Calgary 02 photo
> you are pretty close to lockout, and there is still some
> 5-hole above the bar. For me at lockout the bar is a good
> inch above...uh...the base of my unit.

Two inches in the legs will add there too. As will doing the
sumo. Anyhow, these things work out. You should have some
advantage over me in the bench to make up for what you lose
in the deadlift. As I've said, I have very average
proportions. I'm not great at any one lift, but decent at all
three. If they were contested on the basis of each lift I'd
be in trouble.

What is your bodyweight BTW? And what section of the world are
you in? If we can find a good sumo coach it can make a lot of
difference in learning the lift.

--
Keith Hobman

Tom Mahone

Mon, Nov-18-02, 14:03

Keith Hobman wrote:
> In article <3DD92310.4070505@epix.net>, Tom Mahoney
> <tmaho201SPAMMAR@epix.net> wrote:
>
> snip
>
>>>If you go to the very last picture in my powerlifting album
>>>on Yahoo
>>>
>>>http://photos.yahoo.com/khobman800
>>>
>>
>>Is there some right arm biceps flexing going on there?
>
>
> Sure looks like it, doesn't it. I try not to, but in that
> picture it appears I am.
>

Maybe some pilates or yoga would be in order to lengthen that
thar mussel. ;-)

> One other factor - neither of my arms will completely
> straighten. My elbows are in really bad shape from years of
> sports - in particular pitching baseball and tackling in
> rugby. One of the reasons I quit playing first division
> rugby was when I lost half a step my arms took a beating. It
> seems like I was always taking the tackle on the arm instead
> of the shoulder, mostly I think because my habits were still
> formed thinking I was fast.
>
> So it could be either. When the other lifters and meet
> director felt there was a mistake made by one of the judges
> in not giving me the lockout on my second bench the judge in
> question commented, "But his arms looked straight in the
> hand-off."
>
> Garry, the meet director, commented to the judge, "Watch his
> deadlift. His arms won't straighten with 600 lbs on the end
> of them."
>
> This was just said in commentary BTW. Nobody was getting on
> the judges case, least of all me. When one of the people
> watching the meet made a crack at the judges I told them
> they were the best in Canada - vey consistent. Not making
> the lift was my mistake and it clearly shows in the picture
> where I don't get the bar straight. One red for that and one
> for the questionable call on the lockout, where the
> judgement is a fine, fine line.
>

Its too bad that fighting whatever tendencies your injuries
have given you is just one more thing on the pile of things
you've gotta worry about in competition.

To veer back in the general direction of the topic at hand,
I've recently started pulling sumo again. I haven't done it in
a year or so , and haven't tried it seriously ever. Now that
I'm really paying attention, the mechanical advantage sumo
seems to give me over conventional is almost absurd. The first
time I pulled a relatively heavy weight sumo, I thought to
myself 'how the hell can this be fair technique in
competition?'.

Tom

Paul J Rob

Mon, Nov-18-02, 21:02

"Pierre Honeyman" <phoneyman@telus.net> wrote in message
news:c04f17d7.0211141217.3709052a@posting.google.com...
> I'm going to give this program a try, and I was wondering if
> anyone could tell me what Squat scissors are. Did a google
> search and came up basically empty. It's quite possible I
> missed something, however.
>
> Any help would be appreciated.
>
> Pierre

So long as we're discussing the Sheiko program, is that really
two bench workouts in the first day of the beginners program?
Do a bench workout, do a squat workout, and then go back and
do another bench workout? Am I reading that right?
--
Email without "PJR" in the subject line will be deleted by my
spamfilters

Wayne S. H

Mon, Nov-18-02, 21:02

Will wrote:

> Wayne S. Hill wrote:
>> Will wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
>> > At the moment I am much happier with my bench than I am
>> > with my squat or deadlift, and feel like my upper back is
>> > also a weak point. So I am thinking of substituting
>> > either rows or pullups for the flies (as well as split
>> > snatches for the scissors). Any thoughts which would be
>> > more likely to help with deadlifts (if either)? At the
>> > moment I deadlift conventionally but may experiment with
>> > sumo. I have relatively long legs and short arms, but am
>> > not sure if this means one is likely to suit me more than
>> > the other. I can lift more conventionally right now but
>> > that may just be lack of practice with sumo.
>>
>> Do you have any shoulder difficulties with bench or
>> overhead movements?
>
> Not sure quite what you are asking. In terms of shoulder
> pain / injuries, no difficulties whatsoever.

OK, that is what I was asking. In this case, you can use
assistance exercises that are most helpful for the DL, rather
than to balance your bench work. I'd certainly take Keith's
word for it that rowing is more helpful than pullups (although
I have no direct experience with that).

-Wayne

Will

Mon, Nov-18-02, 21:02

In article <khobman-1811021316430001@192.168.0.2>,
khobman@sasktelNOSPAM.net (Keith Hobman) wrote:

> Two inches in the legs will add there too. As will doing the
> sumo. Anyhow, these things work out. You should have some
> advantage over me in the bench to make up for what you lose
> in the deadlift.

That's true. I can't come close to you on any lifts, but I'm a
whole lot closer on the bench. I've done 330 with what I'm
pretty sure was passable form. And this was at my school gym
with bendy bars (which I think may be adding a bit to my ROM -
they sag visibly with 275+ just sitting on the rack) and a
very low to the ground bench which makes it very hard to get
much leg involvement without lifting my butt. By contrast my
best squat is 335 (this flew up, I practically hopped at the
top, but I've failed repeatedly with 350, although I've never
been very well rested for my max attempts) and my best
deadlift to date is 405. Part of this is my proportions, part
is the fact I've done semi-bodybuilding type stuff for my
upper body for many years, but only saw the light on squats
and deadlifts within the past year.

As I've said, I have very
> average proportions. I'm not great at any one lift, but
> decent at all three. If they were contested on the basis of
> each lift I'd be in trouble.
>
> What is your bodyweight BTW? And what section of the world
> are you in? If we can find a good sumo coach it can make a
> lot of difference in learning the lift.

Right now I'm a soft 225. I'm a ways from feeling ready to
compete, but I think I could make 220 with absolutely no
trouble but think I'd risk losing strength to get down to 198,
especially because I think my legs could use some more meat on
them. I am wondering if it is worth spending some time doing
hypertrophy-centric training for my legs to increase their
potential to get strong, or if that should all take care of
itself as long as I am eating enough and lifting for strength.
I don't care about the appearance so I'm not looking for
sarcoplasmic hypertrophy, just think I could get stronger with
bigger legs.

I live in Santa Cruz, CA. (BTW, if you ever come down for
another Raiders game I'd be honored to buy you a beer, and/or
stop by a gym, I did my undergraduate work at Berkeley and
know a few places in the area.) At the moment I just work out
at the university gym because I am a poor graduate student,
but I'm thinking a real gym might be a good idea. Partly for
the equipment issues I mentioned above (although we do at
least have bumper plates and a platform), partly because I may
be suffering a bit as a big fish in a small pond. I recently
went on a guest pass to a local gym because the school gym was
closed for the holidays, and it was the first time in a long
while I've been surrounded by a lot of lifters much bigger
than me. It definitely boosted my intensity level a bit.

BTW, how far apart (in inches) are your toes in your
wide-stance squats? I've reached the point now where my toes
are just about brushing up against the base of our power cage,
which has a width about one inch less than the inner part of
an olympic bar, and wonder if I would benefit from being able
to go wider.

So I'm not sure yet if I'm strong enough to be worth a good
coach's time, and while I hate to make excuses it seems like
at my height I'd never have much hope being really
competitive at anything less than 242 lbs, which is probably
bigger than I can get. But if anyone is in the general area
I'd love some pointers.

Donovan Re

Mon, Nov-18-02, 21:02

In article <Xns92CAC06CB45BC8ch@130.133.1.4>, Wayne S.
Hill wrote:

> OK, that is what I was asking. In this case, you can use
> assistance exercises that are most helpful for the DL,
> rather than to balance your bench work. I'd certainly take
> Keith's word for it that rowing is more helpful than pullups
> (although I have no direct experience with that).

An article by Dave Tate suggests training your lats in the
same plane as the bench.

See item 12:

http://www.zyworld.com/powerlifting/wt-600lbsbench.htm

Cheers,
--
Donovan

Top Sirloi

Mon, Nov-18-02, 21:02

On Mon, 18 Nov 2002 19:38:24 GMT, Tom Mahoney
<tmaho201SPAMMAR@epix.net> wrote:

>To veer back in the general direction of the topic at hand,
>I've recently started pulling sumo again. I haven't done it
>in a year or so , and haven't tried it seriously ever. Now
>that I'm really paying attention, the mechanical advantage
>sumo seems to give me over conventional is almost absurd. The
>first time I pulled a relatively heavy weight sumo, I thought
>to myself 'how the hell can this be fair technique in
>competition?'.

Whenever I try sumo I think "why isn't the bar moving?", and
"is my spine gonna shoot out of my ass?". YMMV.

-Scott Johnson "Always with the excuses for small legs. People
like you are why they only open the top half of caskets."
-Tommy Bowen

Keith Hobm

Mon, Nov-18-02, 21:02

In article
<satterwill-963178.12124618112002@news.fu-berlin.de>, Will
<satterwill@netscape.net> wrote:

> In article <khobman-1811021316430001@192.168.0.2>,
> khobman@sasktelNOSPAM.net (Keith Hobman) wrote:
>
> > Two inches in the legs will add there too. As will doing
> > the sumo. Anyhow, these things work out. You should have
> > some advantage over me in the bench to make up for what
> > you lose in the deadlift.
>
> That's true. I can't come close to you on any lifts, but I'm
> a whole lot closer on the bench. I've done 330 with what I'm
> pretty sure was passable form. And this was at my school gym
> with bendy bars (which I think may be adding a bit to my ROM
> - they sag visibly with 275+ just sitting on the rack) and a
> very low to the ground bench which makes it very hard to get
> much leg involvement without lifting my butt. By contrast my
> best squat is 335 (this flew up, I practically hopped at the
> top, but I've failed repeatedly with 350, although I've
> never been very well rested for my max attempts) and my best
> deadlift to date is 405. Part of this is my proportions,
> part is the fact I've done semi-bodybuilding type stuff for
> my upper body for many years, but only saw the light on
> squats and deadlifts within the past year.

The benches in PL meets are very low, so its probably a good
thing you have a low bench.
>
>
> As I've said, I have very
> > average proportions. I'm not great at any one lift, but
> > decent at all three. If they were contested on the basis
> > of each lift I'd be in trouble.
> >
> > What is your bodyweight BTW? And what section of the world
> > are you in? If we can find a good sumo coach it can make a
> > lot of difference in learning the lift.
>
> Right now I'm a soft 225. I'm a ways from feeling ready to
> compete, but I think I could make 220 with absolutely no
> trouble but think I'd risk losing strength to get down to
> 198, especially because I think my legs could use some more
> meat on them. I am wondering if it is worth spending some
> time doing hypertrophy-centric training for my legs to
> increase their potential to get strong, or if that should
> all take care of itself as long as I am eating enough and
> lifting for strength. I don't care about the appearance so
> I'm not looking for sarcoplasmic hypertrophy, just think I
> could get stronger with bigger legs.

I'd let your body sort that out and lift for strength. But
thats just me. Others may disagree.
>
> I live in Santa Cruz, CA. (BTW, if you ever come down for
> another Raiders game I'd be honored to buy you a beer,
> and/or stop by a gym, I did my undergraduate work at
> Berkeley and know a few places in the area.) At the moment I
> just work out at the university gym because I am a poor
> graduate student, but I'm thinking a real gym might be a
> good idea. Partly for the equipment issues I mentioned above
> (although we do at least have bumper plates and a platform),
> partly because I may be suffering a bit as a big fish in a
> small pond. I recently went on a guest pass to a local gym
> because the school gym was closed for the holidays, and it
> was the first time in a long while I've been surrounded by a
> lot of lifters much bigger than me. It definitely boosted my
> intensity level a bit.

Might have someone in the area. Do you monitor the email
address you post here or is it a SPAMtrap? Let me know and
I'll get back to you when I hear from the guy.
>
> BTW, how far apart (in inches) are your toes in your
> wide-stance squats? I've reached the point now where my toes
> are just about brushing up against the base of our power
> cage, which has a width about one inch less than the inner
> part of an olympic bar, and wonder if I would benefit from
> being able to go wider.

I'm about 48" from outside toe to outside toe and about 36-38"
at the heels.
>
> So I'm not sure yet if I'm strong enough to be worth a good
> coach's time, and while I hate to make excuses it seems like
> at my height I'd never have much hope being really
> competitive at anything less than 242 lbs, which is probably
> bigger than I can get. But if anyone is in the general area
> I'd love some pointers.

You're strong enough. Technique is a crucial thing. Hang in
there - I'll get back to you, but if I can get the guy I think
I can you've got one of the best technicians anywhere right in
your backyard.

--
Keith Hobman

J Burnell

Mon, Nov-18-02, 21:02

Tom Mahoney wrote:

> To veer back in the general direction of the topic at hand,
> I've recently started pulling sumo again. I haven't done it
> in a year or so , and haven't tried it seriously ever. Now
> that I'm really paying attention, the mechanical advantage
> sumo seems to give me over conventional is almost absurd.
> The first time I pulled a relatively heavy weight sumo, I
> thought to myself 'how the hell can this be fair technique
> in competition?'.

Some people are born with short arms and barrel chests. If
they work on building an arch they will have a distinct
advantage in the bench. Others have long arms, short
torsos and big butts. They use their mechanical advantages
in the pull.

Sumo doesn't work for everyone. The guy that actually taught
me to sumo can't sumo. He has tried it but it just doesn't
work for him but he taught me the basics in one session - of
course, I've been refining it for years. I think sumo
deadlifters are born not made. With few exceptions, it either
feels right or it doesn't. The first time I tried it, I was
like.... this is cool. It just felt "right" for my body.

Wayne S. H

Mon, Nov-18-02, 21:02

Donovan Rebbechi wrote:

> Wayne S. Hill wrote:
>
>> OK, that is what I was asking. In this case, you can use
>> assistance exercises that are most helpful for the DL,
>> rather than to balance your bench work. I'd certainly take
>> Keith's word for it that rowing is more helpful than
>> pullups (although I have no direct experience with that).
>
> An article by Dave Tate suggests training your lats in the
> same plane as the bench.
>
> See item 12:
>
> http://www.zyworld.com/powerlifting/wt-600lbsbench.htm

Yeah, but he's referring to maxing the bench, rather than
improving DL.

<shrug>

-Wayne

Will

Mon, Nov-18-02, 21:02

In article <khobman-1811021458060001@192.168.0.2>,
khobman@sasktelNOSPAM.net (Keith Hobman) wrote:

[snip]

> The benches in PL meets are very low, so its probably a good
> thing you have a low bench.

Hmm. A couple inches below the knee very low?

[snip]
>
> Might have someone in the area. Do you monitor the email
> address you post here or is it a SPAMtrap? Let me know and
> I'll get back to you when I hear from the guy.

This is a valid but neglected address, so I emailed you from
my main account. Thanks.

J Burnell

Mon, Nov-18-02, 21:02

Keith Hobman wrote:

Keith Flatter me with kind words you do. Work it would you
knew because a vain bastard I am, huh? LOL

Will, Emailed me Keith did, your questions about. In
Berkeley training now you are? At RSF? Or in Santa Cruz
training you are?

In El Cerrito I am. Next to Berkeley is Albany and El Cerrito
next to Albany is....... so, close by perhaps we are.

Welcome you are to train at my crib. Or meet in between Santa
Cruz and El Cerrito we may also.

Yada.... er Jason

Lucas Buck

Mon, Nov-18-02, 21:02

On Mon, 18 Nov 2002 14:24:04 -0600, Top Sirloin
<scottjohnson@notspam.kc.rr.com> wrote:

>On Mon, 18 Nov 2002 19:38:24 GMT, Tom Mahoney
><tmaho201SPAMMAR@epix.net> wrote:
>
>>To veer back in the general direction of the topic at hand,
>>I've recently started pulling sumo again. I haven't done it
>>in a year or so , and haven't tried it seriously ever. Now
>>that I'm really paying attention, the mechanical advantage
>>sumo seems to give me over conventional is almost absurd.
>>The first time I pulled a relatively heavy weight sumo, I
>>thought to myself 'how the hell can this be fair technique
>>in competition?'.
>
>Whenever I try sumo I think "why isn't the bar moving?", and
>"is my spine gonna shoot out of my ass?".

"It's RIPPING TIME!!!!"

Keith Hobm

Mon, Nov-18-02, 21:02

In article <3DD97CEA.5010802@deepsquatter.com>, J Burnell
<deepsquatter@deepsquatter.com> wrote:

> Tom Mahoney wrote:
>
>
> > To veer back in the general direction of the topic at
> > hand, I've recently started pulling sumo again. I haven't
> > done it in a year or so , and haven't tried it seriously
> > ever. Now that I'm really paying attention, the mechanical
> > advantage sumo seems to give me over conventional is
> > almost absurd. The first time I pulled a relatively heavy
> > weight sumo, I thought to myself 'how the hell can this be
> > fair technique in competition?'.
>
>
> Some people are born with short arms and barrel chests. If
> they work on building an arch they will have a distinct
> advantage in the bench. Others have long arms, short
> torsos and big butts. They use their mechanical advantages
> in the pull.
>
> Sumo doesn't work for everyone. The guy that actually
> taught me to sumo can't sumo. He has tried it but it just
> doesn't work for him but he taught me the basics in one
> session - of course, I've been refining it for years. I
> think sumo deadlifters are born not made. With few
> exceptions, it either feels right or it doesn't. The first
> time I tried it, I was like.... this is cool. It just felt
> "right" for my body.

Never felt right for me - I had to work it. I think a lot of
it has to do with hip flexibility. If you have it, the sumo
can work. If you don't - you either have to acquire it or the
sumo isn't going to feel good.

In my case my sumo and my conventional are about equal. But I
feel safer in the sumo.

--
Keith Hobman

Keith Hobm

Mon, Nov-18-02, 21:02

In article <Xns92CAC2CB3BC258ch@130.133.1.4>, "Wayne S. Hill"
<hillw4@asme.org> wrote:

> Donovan Rebbechi wrote:
>
> > Wayne S. Hill wrote:
> >
> >> OK, that is what I was asking. In this case, you can use
> >> assistance exercises that are most helpful for the DL,
> >> rather than to balance your bench work. I'd certainly
> >> take Keith's word for it that rowing is more helpful than
> >> pullups (although I have no direct experience with that).
> >
> > An article by Dave Tate suggests training your lats in the
> > same plane as the bench.
> >
> > See item 12:
> >
> > http://www.zyworld.com/powerlifting/wt-600lbsbench.htm
>
> Yeah, but he's referring to maxing the bench, rather than
> improving DL.

Yeah, but if you can kill two birds with one stone, why not?

--
Keith Hobman

Watson Dav

Mon, Nov-18-02, 21:02

On Mon, 18 Nov 2002 23:54:32 GMT, J Burnell
<deepsquatter@deepsquatter.com> wrote:

>
>
>Tom Mahoney wrote:
>
>
>> To veer back in the general direction of the topic at hand,
>> I've recently started pulling sumo again. I haven't done it
>> in a year or so , and haven't tried it seriously ever. Now
>> that I'm really paying attention, the mechanical advantage
>> sumo seems to give me over conventional is almost absurd.
>> The first time I pulled a relatively heavy weight sumo, I
>> thought to myself 'how the hell can this be fair technique
>> in competition?'.
>
>
>Some people are born with short arms and barrel chests. If
>they work on building an arch they will have a distinct
>advantage in the bench. Others have long arms, short
>torsos and big butts. They use their mechanical advantages
>in the pull.
>
>Sumo doesn't work for everyone. The guy that actually taught
>me to sumo can't sumo. He has tried it but it just doesn't
>work for him but he taught me the basics in one session - of
>course, I've been refining it for years. I think sumo
>deadlifters are born not made. With few exceptions, it either
>feels right or it doesn't. The first time I tried it, I was
>like.... this is cool. It just felt "right" for my body.

I tried sumo and didn't like it.

Then when I started lifting with Goss, he said,"Dude. You
should totally lift sumo." We tried it for awhile but I could
always pull more conventional. He finally gave up on it.

Watson (the pencil neck) Davis

Keith Hobm

Mon, Nov-18-02, 21:02

In article <3DD96387.3090704@deepsquatter.com>, J Burnell
<deepsquatter@deepsquatter.com> wrote:

> Keith Hobman wrote:
>
> Keith Flatter me with kind words you do. Work it would you
> knew because a vain bastard I am, huh? LOL
>
> Will, Emailed me Keith did, your questions about. In
> Berkeley training now you are? At RSF? Or in Santa Cruz
> training you are?
>
> In El Cerrito I am. Next to Berkeley is Albany and El
> Cerrito next to Albany is....... so, close by perhaps we
> are.
>
> Welcome you are to train at my crib. Or meet in between
> Santa Cruz and El Cerrito we may also.

The force is strong with this one, Will.

Okay, he is one different dude, but this is the guy that
basically taught me to sumo. In one two hour training session
at midnight or so. After which we drank canadian beer and ate
catfish slivers till four in the am. Sort of a surreal
experience chasing catfish around Deepsquatter's backyard at
Hercules only to try and filet them cuz deepsquatter sure
didn't know what to do with them.

:^)

--
Keith Hobman

Top Sirloi

Mon, Nov-18-02, 21:02

On Mon, 18 Nov 2002 18:47:15 -0600,
khobman@SPAMTRAPsasktel.net (Keith Hobman) wrote:

>In article <3DD97CEA.5010802@deepsquatter.com>, J Burnell
><deepsquatter@deepsquatter.com> wrote:
>
>> Tom Mahoney wrote:
>>
>>
>> > To veer back in the general direction of the topic at
>> > hand, I've recently started pulling sumo again. I haven't
>> > done it in a year or so , and haven't tried it seriously
>> > ever. Now that I'm really paying attention, the
>> > mechanical advantage sumo seems to give me over
>> > conventional is almost absurd. The first time I pulled a
>> > relatively heavy weight sumo, I thought to myself 'how
>> > the hell can this be fair technique in competition?'.
>>
>>
>> Some people are born with short arms and barrel chests. If
>> they work on building an arch they will have a distinct
>> advantage in the bench. Others have long arms, short
>> torsos and big butts. They use their mechanical advantages
>> in the pull.
>>
>> Sumo doesn't work for everyone. The guy that actually
>> taught me to sumo can't sumo. He has tried it but it just
>> doesn't work for him but he taught me the basics in one
>> session - of course, I've been refining it for years. I
>> think sumo deadlifters are born not made. With few
>> exceptions, it either feels right or it doesn't. The first
>> time I tried it, I was like.... this is cool. It just felt
>> "right" for my body.
>
>Never felt right for me - I had to work it. I think a lot of
>it has to do with hip flexibility. If you have it, the sumo
>can work. If you don't - you either have to acquire it or the
>sumo isn't going to feel good.
>
>In my case my sumo and my conventional are about equal. But I
>feel safer in the sumo.

Hmmmm....I'm going to try it again tonight. I'll report back.

-Scott Johnson "be a man ,stop looking for handouts , eat
,lift and shut your mouth" -John Carlo

Tom Mahone

Mon, Nov-18-02, 21:02

Keith Hobman wrote:
> In article <3DD97CEA.5010802@deepsquatter.com>, J Burnell
> <deepsquatter@deepsquatter.com> wrote:
>
>
>>Tom Mahoney wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>To veer back in the general direction of the topic at hand,
>>>I've recently started pulling sumo again. I haven't done it
>>>in a year or so , and haven't tried it seriously ever. Now
>>>that I'm really paying attention, the mechanical advantage
>>>sumo seems to give me over conventional is almost absurd.
>>>The first time I pulled a relatively heavy weight sumo, I
>>>thought to myself 'how the hell can this be fair technique
>>>in competition?'.
>>
>>
>>Some people are born with short arms and barrel chests. If
>>they work on building an arch they will have a distinct
>>advantage in the bench. Others have long arms, short
>>torsos and big butts. They use their mechanical advantages
>>in the pull.
>>
>>Sumo doesn't work for everyone. The guy that actually
>>taught me to sumo can't sumo. He has tried it but it just
>>doesn't work for him but he taught me the basics in one
>>session - of course, I've been refining it for years. I
>>think sumo deadlifters are born not made. With few
>>exceptions, it either feels right or it doesn't. The first
>>time I tried it, I was like.... this is cool. It just felt
>>"right" for my body.
>
>
> Never felt right for me - I had to work it. I think a lot of
> it has to do with hip flexibility. If you have it, the sumo
> can work. If you don't - you either have to acquire it or
> the sumo isn't going to feel good.
>
> In my case my sumo and my conventional are about equal. But
> I feel safer in the sumo.
>

I'm gonna work with it for a bit, but based on my limited
experience it just feels right for me. We'll see.

Tom

J Burnell

Mon, Nov-18-02, 21:02

Keith Hobman wrote:

> In article <3DD96387.3090704@deepsquatter.com>, J Burnell
> <deepsquatter@deepsquatter.com> wrote:
>
>
>>Keith Hobman wrote:
>>
>>Keith Flatter me with kind words you do. Work it would you
>>knew because a vain bastard I am, huh? LOL
>>
>>Will, Emailed me Keith did, your questions about. In
>>Berkeley training now you are? At RSF? Or in Santa Cruz
>>training you are?
>>
>>In El Cerrito I am. Next to Berkeley is Albany and El
>>Cerrito next to Albany is....... so, close by perhaps we
>>are.
>>
>>Welcome you are to train at my crib. Or meet in between
>>Santa Cruz and El Cerrito we may also.
>>
>
> The force is strong with this one, Will.
>
> Okay, he is one different dude, but this is the guy that
> basically taught me to sumo. In one two hour training
> session at midnight or so.

LOL.... all those people at the gym just wouldn't leave me
alone. That's my story and I'm sticking to it!

After
> which we drank canadian beer and ate catfish slivers till
> four in the am. Sort of a surreal experience chasing
> catfish around Deepsquatter's backyard at Hercules only to
> try and filet them cuz deepsquatter sure didn't know what
> to do with them.

I've decided that they were Catfish French Fries. We didn't
screw up a fish.... we made a new dish. I never did find that
one that escaped from the bucket either.

>
> :^)

Keith Hobm

Mon, Nov-18-02, 21:03

In article <3DD97ADC.3000901@deepsquatter.com>, J Burnell
<deepsquatter@deepsquatter.com> wrote:

> Keith Hobman wrote:
>
> > In article <3DD96387.3090704@deepsquatter.com>, J Burnell
> > <deepsquatter@deepsquatter.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >>Keith Hobman wrote:
> >>
> >>Keith Flatter me with kind words you do. Work it would you
> >>knew because a vain bastard I am, huh? LOL
> >>
> >>Will, Emailed me Keith did, your questions about. In
> >>Berkeley training now you are? At RSF? Or in Santa Cruz
> >>training you are?
> >>
> >>In El Cerrito I am. Next to Berkeley is Albany and El
> >>Cerrito next to Albany is....... so, close by perhaps
> >>we are.
> >>
> >>Welcome you are to train at my crib. Or meet in between
> >>Santa Cruz and El Cerrito we may also.
> >>
> >
> > The force is strong with this one, Will.
> >
> > Okay, he is one different dude, but this is the guy that
> > basically taught me to sumo. In one two hour training
> > session at midnight or so.
>
>
> LOL.... all those people at the gym just wouldn't leave me
> alone. That's my story and I'm sticking to it!
>
> After
> > which we drank canadian beer and ate catfish slivers till
> > four in the am. Sort of a surreal experience chasing
> > catfish around Deepsquatter's backyard at Hercules only to
> > try and filet them cuz deepsquatter sure didn't know what
> > to do with them.
>
>
> I've decided that they were Catfish French Fries. We didn't
> screw up a fish.... we made a new dish. I never did find
> that one that escaped from the bucket either.

Probably still haunting the neighbourhood.

Perhaps that's why you moved? I mean that stab through the
head was pretty gory. Someone out there is one big, tough
catfish looking for revenge.

--
Keith Hobman

John M . W

Mon, Nov-18-02, 23:58

J Burnell <deepsquatter@deepsquatter.com> wrote:
>
>Keith Hobman wrote:
>
>Keith Flatter me with kind words you do. Work it would you
>knew because a vain bastard I am, huh? LOL
>
>Will, Emailed me Keith did, your questions about. In
>Berkeley training now you are? At RSF? Or in Santa Cruz
>training you are?
>
>In El Cerrito I am. Next to Berkeley is Albany and El Cerrito
>next to Albany is....... so, close by perhaps we are.
>
>Welcome you are to train at my crib. Or meet in between Santa
>Cruz and El Cerrito we may also.
>
>Yada.... er Jason

Hey! It's that short guru dude from Planet Kalifornia!
--
John M. Williams jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com
------------ http://www.rustyiron.net -------------- ------
Partnership for an Idiot-Free America -------

Will

Mon, Nov-18-02, 23:58

In article <khobman-1811021628340001@192.168.0.2>,
khobman@sasktelNOSPAM.net (Keith Hobman) wrote:

> In article <3DD96387.3090704@deepsquatter.com>, J Burnell
> <deepsquatter@deepsquatter.com> wrote:
>
> > Keith Hobman wrote:
> >
> > Keith Flatter me with kind words you do. Work it would you
> > knew because a vain bastard I am, huh? LOL
> >
> > Will, Emailed me Keith did, your questions about. In
> > Berkeley training now you are? At RSF? Or in Santa Cruz
> > training you are?
> >
> > In El Cerrito I am. Next to Berkeley is Albany and El
> > Cerrito next to Albany is....... so, close by perhaps
> > we are.
> >
> > Welcome you are to train at my crib. Or meet in between
> > Santa Cruz and El Cerrito we may also.
>
> The force is strong with this one, Will.
>
> Okay, he is one different dude, but this is the guy that
> basically taught me to sumo. In one two hour training
> session at midnight or so. After which we drank canadian
> beer and ate catfish slivers till four in the am. Sort of a
> surreal experience chasing catfish around Deepsquatter's
> backyard at Hercules only to try and filet them cuz
> deepsquatter sure didn't know what to do with them.
>
> :^)

Sounds like a lot of fun, and a great resource to. I sent him
an email. Thanks!

Keith Hobm

Tue, Nov-19-02, 06:58

In article <arbchb$su0$1@news1.ucsd.edu>, "Paul J Robertson"
<pjr_filtered@hotmail.com.REMOVE.THIS> wrote:

> "Pierre Honeyman" <phoneyman@telus.net> wrote in message
> news:c04f17d7.0211141217.3709052a@posting.google.com...
> > I'm going to give this program a try, and I was wondering
> > if anyone could tell me what Squat scissors are. Did a
> > google search and came up basically empty. It's quite
> > possible I missed something, however.
> >
> > Any help would be appreciated.
> >
> > Pierre
>
> So long as we're discussing the Sheiko program, is that
> really two bench workouts in the first day of the beginners
> program? Do a bench workout, do a squat workout, and then go
> back and do another bench workout? Am I reading that right?

Yes.

--
Keith Hobman

Skunkhaus

Tue, Nov-19-02, 14:12

J Burnell <deepsquatter@deepsquatter.com> wrote in message
news:<3DD97ADC.3000901@deepsquatter.com>...
> Keith Hobman wrote:

> After
> > which we drank canadian beer and ate catfish slivers till
> > four in the am. Sort of a surreal experience chasing
> > catfish around Deepsquatter's backyard at Hercules only to
> > try and filet them cuz deepsquatter sure didn't know what
> > to do with them.
>
>
> I've decided that they were Catfish French Fries. We didn't
> screw up a fish.... we made a new dish. I never did find
> that one that escaped from the bucket either.

You didn't make catfish shakes?

Jason Burn

Tue, Nov-19-02, 14:12

John M. Williams wrote:

> J Burnell <deepsquatter@deepsquatter.com> wrote:

>
> Hey! It's that short guru dude from Planet Kalifornia!

What's up, ese? Como estas? Yo quieo hamburguesa con queso sin
tomates. Donde estan las chicas con chichis grandes?

(usin' all my espanol in one go!!!)

Jason "Califas" Burnell

Keith Hobm

Tue, Nov-19-02, 14:12

In article <32603d44.0211190920.1403317d@posting.google.com>,
skunkhaus@yahoo.com (skunkhaus) wrote:

> J Burnell <deepsquatter@deepsquatter.com> wrote in message
news:<3DD97ADC.3000901@deepsquatter.com>...
> > Keith Hobman wrote:
>
> > After
> > > which we drank canadian beer and ate catfish slivers
> > > till four in the am. Sort of a surreal experience
> > > chasing catfish around Deepsquatter's backyard at
> > > Hercules only to try and filet them cuz deepsquatter
> > > sure didn't know what to do with them.
> >
> >
> > I've decided that they were Catfish French Fries. We
> > didn't screw up a fish.... we made a new dish. I never did
> > find that one that escaped from the bucket either.
>
>
> You didn't make catfish shakes?

Our liquid requirements were being met by Calgary Export -
affectionately known as 'buffalo piss'.

--
Keith Hobman

Watson Dav

Tue, Nov-19-02, 23:59

On Mon, 18 Nov 2002 10:45:59 -0800, "Paul J Robertson"
<pjr_filtered@hotmail.com.REMOVE.THIS> wrote:

>"Pierre Honeyman" <phoneyman@telus.net> wrote in message
>news:c04f17d7.0211141217.3709052a@posting.google.com...
>> I'm going to give this program a try, and I was wondering
>> if anyone could tell me what Squat scissors are. Did a
>> google search and came up basically empty. It's quite
>> possible I missed something, however.
>>
>> Any help would be appreciated.
>>
>> Pierre
>
>So long as we're discussing the Sheiko program, is that
>really two bench workouts in the first day of the beginners
>program? Do a bench workout, do a squat workout, and then go
>back and do another bench workout? Am I reading that right?

Yes.

Yes, you are.

It rools.

Watson (the pencil neck) Davis

Paul J Rob

Thu, Nov-21-02, 00:03

"Watson Davis" <watson@watsonmusic.com> wrote in message new-
s:4CE15D0691EF29A0.67A59E9E87C87CB2.E3C9610131276840@lp.airn-
ews.net...
> On Mon, 18 Nov 2002 10:45:59 -0800, "Paul J Robertson"
> <pjr_filtered@hotmail.com.REMOVE.THIS> wrote:
>
> >"Pierre Honeyman" <phoneyman@telus.net> wrote in message
> >news:c04f17d7.0211141217.3709052a@posting.google.com...
> >> I'm going to give this program a try, and I was wondering
> >> if anyone could tell me what Squat scissors are. Did a
> >> google search and came up basically empty. It's quite
> >> possible I missed something, however.
> >>
> >> Any help would be appreciated.
> >>
> >> Pierre
> >
> >So long as we're discussing the Sheiko program, is that
> >really two bench workouts in the first day of the beginners
> >program? Do a bench workout,
do
> >a squat workout, and then go back and do another bench
> >workout? Am I reading that right?
>
> Yes.
>
> Yes, you are.
>
> It rools.
>
> Watson (the pencil neck) Davis

In the same workout? Not an AM/PM thing, but during the same
workout? Well, I'm going to give it a try. The program I'm on
will end this weekend and it's time for something new.

--
Email without "PJR" in the subject line will be deleted by my
spamfilters

Watson Dav

Thu, Nov-21-02, 06:58

On Wed, 20 Nov 2002 07:48:57 -0800, "Paul J Robertson"
<pjr_filtered@hotmail.com.REMOVE.THIS> wrote:

>"Watson Davis" <watson@watsonmusic.com> wrote in message new-
>s:4CE15D0691EF29A0.67A59E9E87C87CB2.E3C9610131276840@lp.airn-
>ews.net...
>> On Mon, 18 Nov 2002 10:45:59 -0800, "Paul J Robertson"
>> <pjr_filtered@hotmail.com.REMOVE.THIS> wrote:
>>
>> >"Pierre Honeyman" <phoneyman@telus.net> wrote in message
>> >news:c04f17d7.0211141217.3709052a@posting.google.com...
>> >> I'm going to give this program a try, and I was
>> >> wondering if anyone could tell me what Squat scissors
>> >> are. Did a google search and came up basically empty.
>> >> It's quite possible I missed something, however.
>> >>
>> >> Any help would be appreciated.
>> >>
>> >> Pierre
>> >
>> >So long as we're discussing the Sheiko program, is that
>> >really two bench workouts in the first day of the
>> >beginners program? Do a bench workout,
>do
>> >a squat workout, and then go back and do another bench
>> >workout? Am I reading that right?
>>
>> Yes.
>>
>> Yes, you are.
>>
>> It rools.
>>
>> Watson (the pencil neck) Davis
>
>In the same workout?

Yes.

>Not an AM/PM thing, but during the same workout?

Yes.

>Well, I'm going to give it a try. The program I'm on will end
>this weekend and it's time for something new.

This will be new. You might want to be slightly conservative
the first time through.

Watson (the pencil neck) Davis