Active Low-Carber Forums
Atkins diet and low carb discussion provided free for information only, not as medical advice.
Home Plans Tips Recipes Tools Stories Studies Products
Active Low-Carber Forums
A sugar-free zone


Welcome to the Active Low-Carber Forums.
Support for Atkins diet, Protein Power, Neanderthin (Paleo Diet), CAD/CALP, Dr. Bernstein Diabetes Solution and any other healthy low-carb diet or plan, all are welcome in our lowcarb community. Forget starvation and fad diets -- join the healthy eating crowd! You may register by clicking here, it's free!

Go Back   Active Low-Carber Forums > Main Low-Carb Diets Forums & Support > Low-Carb Studies & Research / Media Watch > Low-Carb War Zone
User Name
Password
FAQ Members Calendar Mark Forums Read Search Gallery My P.L.A.N. Survey


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1   ^
Old Tue, Mar-04-03, 13:33
Nutri-nut Nutri-nut is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 25
 
Plan: common sense low carb
Stats: 165/160/135
BF:
Progress: 17%
Default My doctor & the Atkins' Diet

I went to my doctor's office today and while there, asked about the Atkins' Diet (I'm trying to lose weight). I was told that every single one of their patients who has tried the diet has, indeed, lost weight; however, EVERY single one of them had an increase in cholesterol (plus they gained all the weight back when they went off the diet).

I asked about those who swear their cholesterol was lowered after being on the diet (or maintaining the "Atkins way") and was told that they must have either already had a good cholesterol level or it's genetic.

Those who prescribe to this diet seem to rave about it for two reasons: They lost weight, which is good. And their cholesterol level is good even though they are indulging in foods that are typically on the no-no list for those trying to lower their cholesterol and/or triglyceride levels.

There are two points to be made. One, just because a person loses weight doesn't mean they have done so in a healthy manner (i.e., Fen Phen). Second, some people are genetically "blessed" with the ability to eat pretty much what they want and not be effected by the high fat/cholesterol content. This is obvious if you consider those individuals who do eat these kinds of unhealthy foods yet maintain normal cholesterol levels as opposed to those who do NOT eat unhealthy foods yet STILL cannot maintain a healthy cholesterol level without the aid of medication.

I don't think Atkins proponents seriously comprehend the role of genetics. And because of this, they insist fatty and cholesterol laden foods are not the culprits of obesity nor high cholesterol and triglyceride levels because eating unhealthy foods hasn't effected them in a negative manner. This is dangerous because many people out there (and I've read some messages from some of those right here) believe it will be OK for them, eat the no-no food, and end up in a worse cardiovascular situation.

This is the bottom line why Atkins can be dangerous: Those predisposed genetically to good health "no matter what" are not the model for those who are not so predisposed. And when a philosophy insists that good health advice (reduce high fat and cholesterol foods) is untrue, it puts people in danger when they disregard common sense and PROVEN facts for a plan that works for only a few.

If you are one of those blessed individuals who can eat all the foods we're told not to and still be healthy, more power to you. But please stop spreading the lie that this works for everyone and insist that if it doesn't, it must mean the person isn't "following" the plan correctly.
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
  #2   ^
Old Tue, Mar-04-03, 14:07
pokey one's Avatar
pokey one pokey one is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 210
 
Plan: My own--atkins like
Stats: 188/188/135 Female 63.5 inches
BF:
Progress: 0%
Location: Northern Virginia
Default So you're back, nutrinut?

Wondered where you had disappeared to.

Sorry to see the same tired, overused theories--only this time alleging the credibility of a dr. to support them.

How nice of the doctor to share mainstream (malpractice-safe) opinions. Saying it doesn't make it so. Did the dr. supply the facts upon which the opinion was based? "EVERY single one" could be 1 or 1,000--pretty vague, doncha think? Even doctors disagree about the best eating plans (Atkins, Schwarzbein, Eades, Heller, Berenstein--they're all medical doctors, too!).

Actually, cholesterol may rise for awhile (the good HDL version, that is) on low carb. But the good news is that the bad cholesterol, LDL, drops and so does the triglyceride level. What matters is that the proportions change for the better. I know several people for whom this is true, and they did not start with good levels, but they have good levels now.

Just stating that "EVERY single one of them had an increase in cholesterol" means very little, if anything at all, without knowing the HDL/LDL/triglyceride piece of the puzzle.

Quote:
But please stop spreading the lie that this works for everyone and insist that if it doesn't, it must mean the person isn't "following" the plan correctly.


No plan works for everyone. Individuals tweak their way of eating to suit them and their health needs, body condition, exercise levels, and tastes. I've never see an experienced LCer ever state that this plan works for everyone.

Plenty of folks on this forum are proof positive that LCing does work. Where are the studies that prove it doesn't work? Oh, that's right, THERE AREN'T ANY! No matter how hard nutrition experts have tried to refute that low carbing works, the results keep turning up to prove that it does, much to their consternation! Biochemistry is biochemistry.

Who can argue (with a straight face, that is) that avoiding highly refined foods (white flour, potato chips, table sugar, white rice, etc.), using healthy fats (trans-fat-free olive oil, nuts, etc.), eating low GI fruits and eating LOTS of nutrient-dense vegetables is unhealthy? Oh yeah, and adequate amounts of protein.

BTW, it's not a diet--anyone who goes back to the way they used to eat will gain back their former weight--that's how they got there in the first place. Low carbing is a healthy way of eating for life. There's no going back!

Last edited by pokey one : Tue, Mar-04-03 at 14:50.
Reply With Quote
  #3   ^
Old Tue, Mar-04-03, 14:56
Nutri-nut Nutri-nut is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 25
 
Plan: common sense low carb
Stats: 165/160/135
BF:
Progress: 17%
Default

My, you guys sure get defensive....and arrogant.

I do not believe that a majority opinion is the standard for truth. Having said that, I also don't believe that alternative thinking necessarily indicates truth either.

There is plenty of research that shows high fat/cholesterol diets are HARMFUL. You can deny and/or ignore it, but it won't go away.

And, yes, Atkins' proponents post their articles and studies that support their theory.

So where does that leave us?

Somewhere in between, perhaps.

And let's not ignore the role GENETICS plays in how a person's body reacts to food.

You said: "But the good news is that the bad cholesterol, LDL, drops and so does triglyceride levels." Not for everyone! I just stated that ALL of the patients my doctor has seen who have been on the Atkins diet (and lost weight) have had an INCREASE in their cholesterol and triglyceride levels. He was not referring to the "good" cholesterol level as those patients who saw the jump had to take medication to REDUCE it. You do not take medication to reduce good cholesterol.

The fact that you continue to state that this is a "healthy way to eat for life" proves how dangerous Atkins' propopents are. You sound cultic. And I'm sure NOTHING will change your mind. You believe what you WANT to believe because you like what you are doing.

End of story.
Reply With Quote
  #4   ^
Old Tue, Mar-04-03, 15:10
pokey one's Avatar
pokey one pokey one is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 210
 
Plan: My own--atkins like
Stats: 188/188/135 Female 63.5 inches
BF:
Progress: 0%
Location: Northern Virginia
Default Helloooooo

Arrogant? Hardly. Knowledgeable? Definitely. Cult? Not very likely.

Quote:
There is plenty of research that shows high fat/cholesterol diets are HARMFUL. You can deny and/or ignore it, but it won't go away.


Name one. Wait--of course, it has to be low carb, too, or it is absolutely irrelevant to any discussion of low carbing.

Of course, high fat/cholesterol/carbohydrate diets are harmful! No argument there. Otherwise we could all eat cake, ice cream, and potato chips with no worries.

Can't have it both ways.
Reply With Quote
  #5   ^
Old Tue, Mar-04-03, 15:32
wcollier wcollier is offline
Mad Scientist
Posts: 4,402
 
Plan: Healthy eating/lifestyle
Stats: 156/115/115 Female 5'4 - small frame
BF:
Progress: 100%
Default

Hmmmmm..... would your doctor happen to be Neal Barnard?
Reply With Quote
  #6   ^
Old Tue, Mar-04-03, 15:42
lkonzelman's Avatar
lkonzelman lkonzelman is offline
The evolution of me
Posts: 9,402
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 273/182/160 Female 5' 4"
BF:
Progress: 81%
Location: Bryn Mawr, PA
Default

You are giving this person too much power. There is no data to back this up.

My suggestion is to ignore this post. Have a good night all.
Reply With Quote
  #7   ^
Old Tue, Mar-04-03, 16:41
Rosebud's Avatar
Rosebud Rosebud is offline
Forum Moderator
Posts: 23,881
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 235/135/135 Female 5'4
BF:
Progress: 100%
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Default

Quote:
There is plenty of research that shows high fat/cholesterol diets are HARMFUL.

Yes, that is true.

But all of that research has the high fat/cholesterol diet combined with high carbs - as in starches and sugars.

However research showing that a diet high in fat and cholesterol but low in carbs is harmful, does not exist.

Rosebud
Reply With Quote
  #8   ^
Old Tue, Mar-04-03, 17:51
Lisa N's Avatar
Lisa N Lisa N is offline
Posts: 12,028
 
Plan: Bernstein Diabetes Soluti
Stats: 260/-/145 Female 5' 3"
BF:
Progress: 63%
Location: Michigan
Default

Quote:
EVERY single one of them had an increase in cholesterol


Guess none of their patients were involved in the Duke study where ALL of the patients showed a decrease, not only in total cholesterol, but also in triglycerides and LDL with an increase in HDL. They must also have some pretty good memories (or very few patients) if they can remember which ones ever followed a low carb diet, what their lab results were and how many of them gained the weight back. You might also want to ask your doctor how long these patients were on low carb and how fast they were losing weight. When your body metabolises fat, it has to get into your bloodstream to be moved to the cells where the metabolism takes place. It's actually not that unusual for cholesterol to go up temporarily when weight loss using any method is fast, but it returns to pre-dieting levels (or lower) when weight loss slows down, at least on low carb. Those that continue to have an elevated cholesterol have something else going on which could include a sensitivity to arachidonic acid in which case, it's still not the fat that's causing a problem, it's a totally unrelated substance that they are sensitive to.


Quote:
plus they gained all the weight back when they went off the diet


Hmmm...ask you doctor what happens when his patients go off the low fat diet. It's not exactly astounding medical knowledge that if you go off ANY diet and return to your old eating habits, the weight will come back. Hello! If you go back to eating the way that made you fat in the first place, you'll only get fat again. In other words, if you always do what you've always done, you'll always get what you always got.


Quote:
Second, some people are genetically "blessed" with the ability to eat pretty much what they want and not be effected by the high fat/cholesterol content.


Really?? Then please ask your doctor to explain how I could have high cholesterol on a low fat diet (229 with triglycerides in the 300's) and have a much better cholesterol eating like this (177 with triglycerides of 125).


Quote:
I don't think Atkins proponents seriously comprehend the role of genetics


Actually, I think we understand it better than those who created the infamous food pyramid. Man did not evolve eating significant amounts of grains and processed carbs. Man evolved his big brain eating primarily meat and fats along with whatever seeds, nuts, berries and vegetable matter he could gather and store during the months when they were not available. Grains have only be cultivated and part of the human diet in any significant way for the last 10,000 years or so...merely a blip on our evolutionary journey and not nearly enough time evolution-wise for our genes to adapt to such a diet. Interestingly enough, the Egyptians ate a diet very similar to the recommended food pyramid, so you'd expect them to be slim with a low incidence of heart disease, right? Yet when the mummies are examined, they find a high rate of tooth decay, obesity and arteries plugged with heart disease.

Quote:
please stop spreading the lie that this works for everyone and insist that if it doesn't, it must mean the person isn't "following" the plan correctly.



I don't think you'll find many people here who claim that this works for everyone, including me, but I will say that I believe that every diabetic should be on this plan if they wish to live longer, unless, of course, they happen to enjoy taking pills, injecting insulin and eventually developing complications from diabetes. There are a few (very few) who don't do well on a low carb regime and there are some who should not follow it at all, such as those with kidney disease. There are also some lucky people who seem to be able to eat all the carbs that they like and remain slim, although remaining healthy would be up for debate. Slim people have heart attacks and strokes too. They also develop RA (linked to grains) leaky gut syndrome (linked to grains) and IBS (also linked to grains). But I also doubt that you'll find many medical professionals who won't agree that we would all be a lot healthier if we cut out most of the highly processed carbs, corn syrup, sugar and hydrogenated fats that most of the world is consuming and stuck to less processed foods in their natural state, ate more veggies and elimiated junk food (which can only loosely be defined as food) which would be what maintainance on low carb is all about.


Quote:
eating unhealthy foods hasn't effected them in a negative manner


Not only has it not affected me in an unhealthy manner, and a lot of other people here, too, it was eating the foods that were thought to be "healthy" that was affecting me in a negative manner with high blood sugar, high blood pressure and high cholesterol. Only when I stopped eating them or cut back on them drastically, did things return to normal levels again.
Reply With Quote
  #9   ^
Old Tue, Mar-04-03, 18:35
Lisa N's Avatar
Lisa N Lisa N is offline
Posts: 12,028
 
Plan: Bernstein Diabetes Soluti
Stats: 260/-/145 Female 5' 3"
BF:
Progress: 63%
Location: Michigan
Default

Quote:
Originally posted by Nutri-nut
You do not take medication to reduce good cholesterol.


Guess you haven't read about the recommendation that those with normal cholesterol levels but other "risk" factors such as family history or being overweight, take cholesterol-lowering statin drugs.

BTW...fats don't make triglycerides go up, sugar and processed carbs do...oh...and alcoholism.
Reply With Quote
  #10   ^
Old Tue, Mar-04-03, 19:28
Natrushka Natrushka is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 11,512
 
Plan: IF +LC
Stats: 287/165/165 Female 66"
BF:
Progress: 100%
Default Re: My doctor & the Atkins' Diet

Quote:
Originally posted by Nutri-nut
I was told that every single one of their patients who has tried the diet has, indeed, lost weight; however, EVERY single one of them had an increase in cholesterol (plus they gained all the weight back when they went off the diet).


Quote:
I asked about those who swear their cholesterol was lowered after being on the diet (or maintaining the "Atkins way") and was told that they must have either already had a good cholesterol level or it's genetic.


Quote:
There are two points to be made. One, just because a person loses weight doesn't mean they have done so in a healthy manner (i.e., Fen Phen). Second, some people are genetically "blessed" with the ability to eat pretty much what they want and not be effected by the high fat/cholesterol content.


Quote:
I don't think Atkins proponents seriously comprehend the role of genetics. And because of this, they insist fatty and cholesterol laden foods are not the culprits of obesity nor high cholesterol and triglyceride levels because eating unhealthy foods hasn't effected them in a negative manner.


Haven't you heard that while all generalizations may not be bad they certainly aren't good and can be quite harmful ? They also cannot be proven, otherwise you'd be bombarding us with the proof instead of making sweeping generalizations about something that clearly has you upset and has undermined your ability argue rationally.

Nat
Reply With Quote
  #11   ^
Old Tue, Mar-04-03, 22:07
PoofieD's Avatar
PoofieD PoofieD is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 2,389
 
Plan: Schwarzbein Principle
Stats: 195/176/125
BF:too much
Progress: 27%
Location: Salt Lake City, UT
Default OKay. so what is YOUR problem?

Quote:
My, you guys sure get defensive....and arrogant.

I do not believe that a majority opinion is the standard for truth. Having said that, I also don't believe that alternative thinking necessarily indicates truth either.




What exactly is it that your doing here??
I don't get it.
YOU DON'T have to do this!
Nobody here is forcing it on you!
But we ARE not going to be following you or your Dr..
what is it exactly that offends you about US and our chosen way of eating?
What is it with you that you dont' find a board with YOUR views being expressed and be there posting there about being positive instead of antagonzing others??
what does it get you?
WE aren't listening to you. You aren't God for us.
Okay?
Live your life, Live well and prosper.. but find something positive for yourself.
Reply With Quote
  #12   ^
Old Wed, Mar-05-03, 07:40
deb_o's Avatar
deb_o deb_o is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 358
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 170/166/130 Female 5' 3.5"
BF:
Progress: 10%
Location: Perkasie, PA
Default

BTW- high cholesterol runs in both sides of my family. Before going on Atkins, my number was in the high 200's. It did go up a bit at first, but now is below 200. Genetics? I don't think so!
Reply With Quote
  #13   ^
Old Wed, Mar-05-03, 12:14
pegm pegm is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 615
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 230/197/135
BF:
Progress: 35%
Location: Wisconsin
Default

My husband's cholesterol was climbing despite being on Lipitor. Also, after age 40, he also had gained a lot of weight -- most of it in his stomach. He was diligently following low fat eating -- very lean meats, no added fats, etc. and was snacking on fat free pretzels and other fat free sweets (candies, etc.), but his cholesterol and weight continued to worsen. He was always hungry, always eating, and never satisfied. He had no energy.

His doctor did not really support his going on Atkins, but he tried it anyway and lost 40 pounds and was off the cholesterol meds after 4 months. Here he is one year later, still 40 pounds lighter, and still off the cholesterol meds. His last test was the best ever -- the doctor was very impressed!

I am not saying that it works that way for everyone, but I do know that my husband's cholesterol improved greatly on Atkins -- so much so that he no longer needs medication. He also has maintained the weight -- he eats lots of veggies and fruits, some whole grain bread and pasta, and, yes, he does eat eggs, some steak and uses mayo and full fat dressings. So, please don't say that Atkins does not work for anyone -- it did work for my husband.
Reply With Quote
  #14   ^
Old Wed, Mar-05-03, 13:54
jessea's Avatar
jessea jessea is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 477
 
Plan: Schwarzbien Newbie
Stats: 146/141/120
BF:shrinking
Progress: 19%
Location: Illinois
Default

Nutri-Nut, since you are calling yourself a nutrition nut, let's hear some things from you:

What nutritionally based books have you read?

What do you consider a healthy way of eating?

Do you have any scientific and/or medical background?

Just curious. Since you like to debate, let's hear what you are basing your arguments on.

-Jess
Reply With Quote
  #15   ^
Old Wed, Mar-05-03, 14:16
wcollier wcollier is offline
Mad Scientist
Posts: 4,402
 
Plan: Healthy eating/lifestyle
Stats: 156/115/115 Female 5'4 - small frame
BF:
Progress: 100%
Default Re: OKay. so what is YOUR problem?

Quote:
Originally posted by PoofieD
What exactly is it that your doing here??
I don't get it.


Hi Poofie:

NutriNut is on a mission. Every study she has posted on this board has been from Neal Barnard's radically vegetarian PCRM site. And she accuses us of arrogance....

She hasn't even read one LC book on which to base her opinions.

Wanda
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 15:21.


Copyright © 2000-2024 Active Low-Carber Forums @ forum.lowcarber.org
Powered by: vBulletin, Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.