Hi all:

First time posting to this particular group, but it seems to
be the best place for information.

I am looking for any info that one might have on a never
ending kidney stone problem that plagues both my sister and I.
The following may be hard to believe, but it is the absolute
truth. I have suffered with kidney stones for 19 years
straight without a break. I have passed over 100 on my own. (I
keep them in a jar) I have had 5 lithotrypsies and 4 of those
basket things when they pull them out of your uereter. My
recent episode was on August 18th on my right side where after
5 days and 3 hospital visits I passed a 8 mm stone. When they
did the IVP, they discovered a 2 cm stone in my left side
(hanging like a beehive) I was told that I needed immediate
lithotrypsy to blast it. I also have two more still in my
right kidney and a total of 3 in the left.(prior to blasting).
The blasting took place on 9th of September. (2800 shock
waves, the average is 2300) Well as you can imagine,
immediately after it was done, I went into renal colic as the
stone plugged every imaginable area in the kidney it could.
But, after a shot of Morphine I was sent home and told,
they'll pass. (my ass, I was thinking) Anyway, Tuesday, back
in the hospital, all morphed up, they did a CT scan, another
IVP, etc. etc. By Thursday, I was stented, still am, and am
looking for some serious answers from the Dr.'s as to what
went so wrong during the litho to end up in such bad shape. I
was given three choices by the Dr's. #1 (stent) #2 tube
through the back to go in and directly remove the stones #3,
leave all alone and watch my kidney die. As noted, I took
option #1. I've had a stent before and it felt worse than the
stone and had it removed after two days. I've lasted a week
with this one, but it still feels like shit and Tylenol #3 is
the only thing keeping me sane. I am to get a KUB exray on
Wednesday and hopefully the stent removed. (Is this when all
the blasted pieces come out? Only a small fraction of gravel
and sand has come out so far)

My questions are as follows: (All tests show stones to consist
of Calcium/Oxalate and other tests show them to be
Calcium/Phosphate)

#1 Any advice on how to tollerate this stent 2 After many
#searches, is there any truth or validation to taking
Vitamin B6/Magnesuim to prevent further stones (if so, how
much in a day do I need)
#3 Is there any truth to the "apple cider vinegar"
#connection to
dissolving present stones. (does the pill form work the same
as straight up??)

I know many of you may wonder what the Dr's oppinion on
prevention, etc.., but the only advice I have ever received
was to drink water. I have never been given any clear advice
to prevent stones. I have only been treated with the ones I
get, then sent on my merry way. I find this a common situation
with other stone sufferers.

As you can imagine, I am fed up with just waiting around for
stones to pass and am very serious about trying things the
"natural" way to see if it will help.

I have stopped drinking all forms of pop (I was a Diet Coke
addict), I started taking the B6/Magnesium combo, I've started
taking apple cider vinegar supplements. I drink nothing but
water, juice and 5Alive (is this good?) My diet habits are
that of a normal person: Chicken, vegetables, rice, pasta,
nothing in access. I eat very little red meat. I also snack
on, but not in access on the usual junk food. We eat out at
fast food joints about once a week. I do however, like my
cookies :-).

Any useful information would be greatly appreciated and if
someone out there has the answers for me that would put an end
to my suffering, please pass it on.

Thanks guys,

Shelli

Shelli:

The two most common causes of this are:
1. Magnesium deficiency. You are already onto this. Just take
the recommended dosages. Clue: Crush the magnesium pills
with your teeth before you swallow them, as many brands
don't dissolve correctly in your digestive tract.
2. Low daytime body temperature. Some people never get up to
98.6F = 37C during the day. At a lower 97.something
temperature, your urine holds a LOT less, with the
difference forming kidney stones. This condition, if you
have it, is known as "Wilson's Syndrome". I have lots more
info on this if this is your problem.

Steve
=============
Shelli wrote:
  >
  > Hi all:
  >
  > First time posting to this particular group, but it seems to
  > be the best place for information.
  >
  > I am looking for any info that one might have on a never
  > ending kidney stone problem that plagues both my sister and
  > I. The following may be hard to believe, but it is the
  > absolute truth. I have suffered with kidney stones for 19
  > years straight without a break. I have passed over 100 on my
  > own. (I keep them in a jar) I have had 5 lithotrypsies and 4
  > of those basket things when they pull them out of your
  > uereter. My recent episode was on August 18th on my right
  > side where after 5 days and 3 hospital visits I passed a 8
  > mm stone. When they did the IVP, they discovered a 2 cm
  > stone in my left side (hanging like a beehive) I was told
  > that I needed immediate lithotrypsy to blast it. I also have
  > two more still in my right kidney and a total of 3 in the
  > left.(prior to blasting). The blasting took place on 9th of
  > September. (2800 shock waves, the average is 2300) Well as
  > you can imagine, immediately after it was done, I went into
  > renal colic as the stone plugged every imaginable area in
  > the kidney it could. But, after a shot of Morphine I was
  > sent home and told, they'll pass. (my ass, I was thinking)
  > Anyway, Tuesday, back in the hospital, all morphed up, they
  > did a CT scan, another IVP, etc. etc. By Thursday, I was
  > stented, still am, and am looking for some serious answers
  > from the Dr.'s as to what went so wrong during the litho to
  > end up in such bad shape. I was given three choices by the
  > Dr's. #1 (stent) #2 tube through the back to go in and
  > directly remove the stones #3, leave all alone and watch my
  > kidney die. As noted, I took option #1. I've had a stent
  > before and it felt worse than the stone and had it removed
  > after two days. I've lasted a week with this one, but it
  > still feels like shit and Tylenol #3 is the only thing
  > keeping me sane. I am to get a KUB exray on Wednesday and
  > hopefully the stent removed. (Is this when all the blasted
  > pieces come out? Only a small fraction of gravel and sand
  > has come out so far)
  >
  > My questions are as follows: (All tests show stones to
  > consist of Calcium/Oxalate and other tests show them to be
  > Calcium/Phosphate)
  >
  > #1 Any advice on how to tollerate this stent 2 After many
  > #searches, is there any truth or validation to taking
  > Vitamin B6/Magnesuim to prevent further stones (if so, how
  > much in a day do I need)
  > #3 Is there any truth to the "apple cider vinegar"
  > #connection to
  > dissolving present stones. (does the pill form work the same
  > as straight up??)
  >
  > I know many of you may wonder what the Dr's oppinion on
  > prevention, etc.., but the only advice I have ever received
  > was to drink water. I have never been given any clear advice
  > to prevent stones. I have only been treated with the ones I
  > get, then sent on my merry way. I find this a common
  > situation with other stone sufferers.
  >
  > As you can imagine, I am fed up with just waiting around for
  > stones to pass and am very serious about trying things the
  > "natural" way to see if it will help.
  >
  > I have stopped drinking all forms of pop (I was a Diet Coke
  > addict), I started taking the B6/Magnesium combo, I've
  > started taking apple cider vinegar supplements. I drink
  > nothing but water, juice and 5Alive (is this good?) My diet
  > habits are that of a normal person: Chicken, vegetables,
  > rice, pasta, nothing in access. I eat very little red meat.
  > I also snack on, but not in access on the usual junk food.
  > We eat out at fast food joints about once a week. I do
  > however, like my cookies :-).
  >
  > Any useful information would be greatly appreciated and if
  > someone out there has the answers for me that would put an
  > end to my suffering, please pass it on.
  >
  > Thanks guys,
  >
  > Shelli

Shelli wrote:

  > Hi all:
  >
  > First time posting to this particular group, but it seems to
  > be the best place for information.
  >
  > I am looking for any info that one might have on a never
  > ending kidney stone problem that plagues both my sister and
  > I. The following may be hard to believe, but it is the
  > absolute truth. I have suffered with kidney stones for 19
  > years straight without a break. I have passed over 100 on my
  > own. (I keep them in a jar) I have had 5 lithotrypsies and 4
  > of those basket things when they pull them out of your
  > uereter. My recent episode was on August 18th on my right
  > side where after 5 days and 3 hospital visits I passed a 8
  > mm stone. When they did the IVP, they discovered a 2 cm
  > stone in my left side (hanging like a beehive) I was told
  > that I needed immediate lithotrypsy to blast it. I also have
  > two more still in my right kidney and a total of 3 in the
  > left.(prior to blasting). The blasting took place on 9th of
  > September. (2800 shock waves, the average is 2300) Well as
  > you can imagine, immediately after it was done, I went into
  > renal colic as the stone plugged every imaginable area in
  > the kidney it could. But, after a shot of Morphine I was
  > sent home and told, they'll pass. (my ass, I was thinking)
  > Anyway, Tuesday, back in the hospital, all morphed up, they
  > did a CT scan, another IVP, etc. etc. By Thursday, I was
  > stented, still am, and am looking for some serious answers
  > from the Dr.'s as to what went so wrong during the litho to
  > end up in such bad shape. I was given three choices by the
  > Dr's. #1 (stent) #2 tube through the back to go in and
  > directly remove the stones #3, leave all alone and watch my
  > kidney die. As noted, I took option #1. I've had a stent
  > before and it felt worse than the stone and had it removed
  > after two days. I've lasted a week with this one, but it
  > still feels like shit and Tylenol #3 is the only thing
  > keeping me sane. I am to get a KUB exray on Wednesday and
  > hopefully the stent removed. (Is this when all the blasted
  > pieces come out? Only a small fraction of gravel and sand
  > has come out so far)
  >
  > My questions are as follows: (All tests show stones to
  > consist of Calcium/Oxalate and other tests show them to be
  > Calcium/Phosphate)

70% of the all stones contain calcium either as pure calcium
oxalate, calcium phosphate or mixed. They say that in 90% of
cases some well known cause will be found. They need to do
blood work for calcium, PTH, electrolytes and uric acid. The
urine chemistries include 24 hr collection for calcium, uric
acid, citrate, and creatinine levels. I am not a doctor by the
way so don't expect any free advice.

  >
  >
  > #1 Any advice on how to tollerate this stent 2 After many
  > #searches, is there any truth or validation to taking
  > Vitamin B6/Magnesuim to prevent further stones (if so, how
  > much in a day do I need)

Mg would help complex the calcium in the urine away from
oxalate. B6 reduces oxalate which is good.

  >
  > #3 Is there any truth to the "apple cider vinegar"
  > #connection to
  > dissolving present stones. (does the pill form work the same
  > as straight up??)
  >
  > I know many of you may wonder what the Dr's oppinion on
  > prevention, etc.., but the only advice I have ever received
  > was to drink water. I have never been given any clear advice
  > to prevent stones. I have only been treated with the ones I
  > get, then sent on my merry way. I find this a common
  > situation with other stone sufferers.
  >
  > As you can imagine, I am fed up with just waiting around for
  > stones to pass and am very serious about trying things the
  > "natural" way to see if it will help.
  >
  > I have stopped drinking all forms of pop (I was a Diet Coke
  > addict), I started taking the B6/Magnesium combo, I've
  > started taking apple cider vinegar supplements. I drink
  > nothing but water, juice and 5Alive (is this good?) My diet
  > habits are that of a normal person: Chicken, vegetables,
  > rice, pasta, nothing in access. I eat very little red meat.
  > I also snack on, but not in access on the usual junk food.
  > We eat out at fast food joints about once a week. I do
  > however, like my cookies :-).

Restricting daily meat intake to reduce uric acid excretion
would be desirable but a more tailored approach would ne based
on the urine chemistry. Allopurinal can be used to lower uric
acid. I have seen thiazide diuretics mentioned to stimulate
renal calcium reabsorption and lower urinary calcium excretion
but you can have complications with diuretics. One way to
minimize one side effect is to give potassium citrate for a
thiazide-induced hypocitraturia. You want to induce a low
urine citrate level. This is for the idiopathic inherited form
with an elevated fasting urine calcium and found in 3 to 5
percent of the general population. Cellulose phosphate for
those with increased calcium absorption if they still have
this stuff out there. The remaining 5 percent of people with
stones will not have any chemistry lab abnormalities and are
often told to drink plenty of water.

  >
  >
  > Any useful information would be greatly appreciated and if
  > someone out there has the answers for me that would put an
  > end to my suffering, please pass it on.
  >
  > Thanks guys,

Did they come up with any abnormalities in lab tests that
would lend itself to more specific treatment?

  >
  >
  > Shelli

18 Sep 2002 20:10:20 -0700 in article
<101030af.0209181910.6e8ad344~posting.google.com>
spendo1~rogers.com (Shelli) wrote:

  >#2 After many searches, is there any truth or validation
  >#to taking
  >Vitamin B6/Magnesuim to prevent further stones (if so, how
  >much in a day do I need)

There aren't many studies about that. There's is one double
bind trial (Ettinger et al 1997) which suggests that
potassium-magnesium citrate reduces risk of recurrence of
calcium oxalate stones by 85%. Curhan et al have conducted two
epidemiological studies which suggest that vitamin B6 intake >
40 mg/d may reduce the risk of kidney stone formation in women
but not in men. I wouldn't take more that 100 mg of vitamin B6
daily, because larger doses don't seem to bring any further
benefits and can be toxic (cause neuropathy). Somewhat
surprisingly Rodgers et al (1997) found out mineral water
containing calcium and magnesium may be a prophylactic agent
in calcium oxalate kidney stone disease.

Medline references:

Ettinger B, Pak CY, Citron JT, Thomas C, Adams-Huet B,
Vangessel A. Potassium-magnesium citrate is an effective
prophylaxis against recurrent calcium oxalate nephrolithiasis.
J Urol. 1997 Dec;158(6):2069-73. PMID: 9366314 [PubMed -
indexed for MEDLINE] http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query-
.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=9366314&dopt=Abstract

"... CONCLUSIONS: Potassium-magnesium citrate effectively
prevents recurrent calcium oxalate stones, and this
treatment given for up to 3 years reduces risk of
recurrence by 85%."

Curhan GC, Willett WC, Speizer FE, Stampfer MJ. Intake of
vitamins B6 and C and the risk of kidney stones in women. J Am
Soc Nephrol. 1999 Apr;10(4):840-5. PMID: 10203369 [PubMed -
indexed for MEDLINE]
http://www.jasn.org/cgi/content/full/10/4/840

"... Large doses of vitamin B6 may reduce the risk of
kidney stone formation in women... "

Curhan GC, Willett WC, Rimm EB, Stampfer MJ. Related Articles,
Links A prospective study of the intake of vitamins C and B6,
and the risk of kidney stones in men. J Urol. 1996
Jun;155(6):1847-51. PMID: 8618271 [PubMed - indexed for
MEDLINE] http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Re-
trieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=8618271&dopt=Abstract

"... Neither vitamin C nor vitamin B6 intake was
significantly associated with the risk of stone
formation...

"... For vitamin B6 the age-adjusted relative risk for men
consuming 40
mg. daily or more compared to less than 3 mg. daily was
0.91 (95% confidence interval 0.64 to 1.31)..."

Rodgers AL. Effect of mineral water containing calcium and
magnesium on calcium oxalate urolithiasis risk factors. Urol
Int. 1997;58(2):93-9. PMID: 9096270 [PubMed - indexed for
MEDLINE] http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Re-
trieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=9096270&dopt=Abstract

"... It is concluded that mineral water containing calcium
and magnesium, such as that used in this study, deserves
to be considered as a possible therapeutic or prophylactic
agent in calcium oxalate kidney stone disease."

Yendt ER, Cohanim M. Response to a physiologic dose of
pyridoxine in type I primary hyperoxaluria. N Engl J Med. 1985
Apr 11;312(15):953-7. PMID: 3974685 [PubMed - indexed for
MEDLINE] http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Re-
trieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=3974685&dopt=Abstract

Heller HJ. The role of calcium in the prevention of kidney
stones. J Am Coll Nutr. 1999 Oct;18(5 Suppl):373S-378S.
Review. PMID: 10511317 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
http://www.jacn.org/cgi/content/full/18/suppl_5/373S

--
Matti Narkia

Once upon a time, our fellow Shelli rambled on about "Never
ending Kidney Stones." Our champion De-Medicalizing in
sci.med.nutrition retorts, thusly ...

  >#2 After many searches, is there any truth or validation
  >#to taking
  >Vitamin B6/Magnesuim to prevent further stones (if so, how
  >much in a day do I need)

In his book Nutrition and Vitamin Therapy (Grove Press, 1980),
Michael Lesser, M.D., states that in a study reported in 1974
by the Journal of Urology, 10 mg. of vitamin B6 and 300 mg. of
magnesium oxide prevented recurrence in about 80 percent of
patients with a long history of kidney and urinary tract stone
formation.

Personally, I would take a 250 mg tablet of any Magnesium
supplement three times a day. For about one month, and then
drop down to two tablets for about three months, then to only
one table a day.

Add, your magnesium supplement to a glass of water that
contains one teaspoon of any kind of vinegar. Your Magnesium
supplement should fall apart completely within 45 minutes.

Take 50 mg of B-6 for about one month and then try lowering
your dosage. Warning: excessive amounts of B-6 can cause
nerve damage.

Check out the following hyperlink for an extensive discussion
on Kidney Stones.

http://www.healthwell.com/healthnotes/Concern/Kidney_Stones.c-
fm

The final determination of what is best for the patient is
both the right and responsibility of the individual patient.
--
John Gohde, Patient Empowerment Advocate
http://home.naturalhealthperspective.com/empowerment.html
Email: Ngs~NaturalHealthPerspective.com
www.NaturalHealthPerspective.com - Pioneering
De-Medicalization by handing back the power to the people,
encouraging self care and autonomy, and resisting the
categorization of life's problems as medical.

Jorge wrote

  >
  > Restricting daily meat intake to reduce uric acid excretion
  > would be desirable but a more tailored approach would ne
  > based on the urine chemistry. Allopurinal can be used to
  > lower uric acid. I have seen thiazide diuretics mentioned to
  > stimulate renal calcium reabsorption and lower urinary
  > calcium excretion but you can have complications with
  > diuretics. One way to minimize one side effect is to give
  > potassium citrate for a thiazide-induced hypocitraturia. You
  > want to induce a low urine citrate level.

Mis-spoke here You want a high citrate level in the urine as
it binds the calcium. A low citrate urine level promotes
calcium oxalate which is why you check this level in the
urine. The diuretic can make things worse which is why you
want to give the K citrate. Jorge

This Vinpocetine which is an over the counter supplement may
help. Show this to you doctor. It is an old animal study that
indicate that Vinpocetine will remove excess Calcium from soft
tissues. Because Calcium is such an essential element I know
that a lot of precaution must be taken.

Jack N Dalton

1: No To Shinkei 1990 Apr;42(4):325-31 [Contents of calcium,
phosphorus and aluminum in central nervous system, liver
and kidney of rabbits with experimental
atherosclerosis-scavenger effects of vinpocetine on the
deposition of elements] [Article in Japanese]

Yasui M, Yano I, Ota K, Oshima A. Department of Laboratory
Medicine, Wakayama Medical College, Japan.

The aims in this study were designed to clarify the contents
of calcium
(Ca), phosphorus (P) and aluminum (Al) in central nervous
system (CNS), liver and kidney of rabbits with
atherosclerosis experimentally induced by cholesterol-rich
diet, and investigate scavenger effect of
14-ethoxycarbonyl-(3 alpha, 16
alpha-ethyl)-14,15-eburnamenine (vinpocetine) on the
deposition of these elements in CNS and soft tissues of
experimental atherosclerosis. Sixteen male rabbits were
divided into 4 groups. Each group was fed with standard
diet (Group A), standard diet containing 1.5% cholesterol
(Group B), standard diet containing 1.5% cholesterol plus
oral administration of 3 mg/kg/day vinpocetine (Group C),
and standard diet containing 1.5% cholesterol plus
administration of 10 mg/kg/day vinpocetine (Group D).
After 3 months' feeding, experimental atherosclerosis was
produced with a modified method of Kritchevsky et al in
rabbits of Groups B, C and D. Blood was collected by
cardiocentesis under the anesthesia of ether and then
rabbits sacrificed to remove CNS and other tissues. The
blood was stood for 1 hour at room temperature and
separated by centrifugation at 3000 rpm for 10 min to
determine serum total cholesterol, phospholipids,
HDL-cholesterol, peroxide lipid, NEFA and calcium levels.
Ca, P and Al contents in the frontal lobe, pons,
cerebellum, spinal cord, liver and kidney were determined
by neutron activation analysis. Ca contents of CNS, liver
and kidney in Group B significantly increased than those
of Group A (p less than 0.01), and significantly decreased
in Groups C and D compared with those of Group B (p less
than 0.01).(ABSTRACT TRUNCATED AT 250 WORDS)

PMID: 2390364 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
1: World J Urol 2001 Nov;19(5):344-50

Phosphodiesterase 1 inhibition in the treatment of lower
urinary tract dysfunction: from bench to bedside.

Truss MC, Stief CG, Uckert S, Becker AJ, Wefer J, Schultheiss
D, Jonas U.

Urologische Klinik, Medizinische Hochschule, Hannover,
Germany.

Anticholinergic drugs are currently the therapy of choice to
treat urgency and urge incontinence. However, muscarinergic
receptor blockers with adequate selectivity for detrusor
smooth muscle are not available. Also, in contrast to the
normal detrusor, the unstable detrusor neurotransmission seems
to be at least partially regulated by non-cholinergic (NANC)
pathways. These factors may explain the common side effects
and the limited clinical efficacy of these compounds. Specific
modulation of intracellular second messenger pathways offers
the possibility of organ selective manipulation of tissue
function, specifically contraction and relaxation of smooth
musculature. Because of their central role in the
intracellular regulation of smooth muscle tone
phosphodiesterases (PDEs) are an attractive pharmacological
targets. The PDE 5 specific inhibitor sildenafil (Viagra) has
revolutionized the treatment of patients with erectile
dysfunction. Numerous other PDE inhibitors are currently under
investigation for the treatment of various disorders. We
investigated the role of PDEs in human detrusor smooth muscle.
Our data demonstrate the presence of five PDE isoenzymes in
human detrusor and suggest, for the first time, that the cAMP
pathway and the calcium/calmodulin-stimulated PDE (PDE 1) are
of functional importance in the intracellular regulation in
this tissue in vitro. In addition. initial clinical data with
the PDE 1 inhibitor vinpocetine in patients not responding to
standard anticholinergic therapy indicate a possible role for
vinpocetine in the treatment of urgency, urge incontinence
and, possibly, low compliance bladder and interstitial
cystitis. The results of a larger randomized, double-blind,
placebo-controlled, multicenter trial with vinpocetine show a
tendency in favor of vinpocetine over placebo; however,
statistically significant results were documented for one
parameter only. This might be due to the rather low dosage
chosen and the small sample size. Further studies are
necessary and currently underway to delineate the optimal
dosage, indications and patient population. Modulation of
intracellular key enzymes effecting second messenger
metabolism,
i.e. isoenzyme-selective PDE inhibition is a novel approach
which possibly avoids the limitations of anticholinergic
therapy in patients with lower urinary tract dysfunction.

PMID: 11760783 [PubMed - in process]


1: Urol Res 2001 Dec;29(6):388-92

Identification and functional study of phosphodiesterases in
rat urinary bladder. Qiu Y, Kraft P, Craig EC, Liu X,
Haynes-Johnson D.

i.f. Johnson Pharmaceutical Research Institute, Raritan, NJ
08869, USA.

Abstract Cyclic nucleotides are important secondary
messengers involved in modulating the contractility of
various smooth muscles. Phosphodiesterases (PDE) play
important roles in this process by modulating the levels
of cyclic nucleotides and their duration of action. This
study was designed to identify and characterize the PDE
isoenzymes in rat urinary bladder and to evaluate their
roles in regulating bladder smooth muscle tone. The
involvement of cAMP and cGMP pathways in this process
was also assessed. The studies were carried out with
tissues from male and female rats and no significant
sex-related difference was found in the results.
Utilizing the unique pharmacological properties of
different isoenzymes, PDE1, 2, 3, 4, and 5 were
identified in rat bladder. Organ bath experiments showed
that forskolin was most potent in relaxing
pre-contracted rat bladder strips while sodium
nitroprusside was moderately effective, suggesting the
relaxation was mainly mediated by the cAMP pathway and
that the cGMP pathway is moderately involved. For PDE
inhibitors, the non-specific inhibitor papaverine was
most effective in relaxing pre-contracted bladder
strips. Among isoenzyme-selective inhibitors,
vinpocetine, EHNA, and sildenafil induced more
relaxation than milrinone and rolipram.

PMID: 11828991 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

spendo1~rogers.com (Shelli) wrote in message
news:<101030af.0209181910.6e8ad344~posting.google.com>...
  >
  > As you can imagine, I am fed up with just waiting around for
  > stones to pass and am very serious about trying things the
  > "natural" way to see if it will help.
  >
Shelli, I can't find the reference right now, but there is a
counterintuitive way to reduce the formation of calcium
oxalate in the kidneys--eat some calcium with each meal. The
oxalic acid in the meal will bind with the calcium in the gut
and pass out as solid waste. Here is a study indicating
dietary calcium will reduce elimination of oxalic acid in the
urine, IMO indicating the oxalic acid isn't making it as far
as the serum.

"Effect of dietary calcium on urinary oxalate excretion after
oxalate loads American Journal of Clinical Nutrition (USA),
1997, 65/5 (1453-1459)

An experimental model that allowed differentiation between
endogenously and exogenously derived urinary oxalate was used
to assess the effect of different forms and doses of ingested
calcium on oxalate absorption and excretion. In replication 1
(R-1), subjects participated in three oxalate load (OL) tests:
baseline (OL alone), calcium carbonate (OL with concomitant
calcium carbonate ingestion), and calcium citrate malate (CCM)
(OL with concomitant CCM ingestion). The calcium salts each
provided 300 mg elemental Ca. OLs consisted of 180 mg
unlabeled and 18 mg 1,2(13C2)oxalic acid. In R-2, subjects
participated in four OL tests: baseline (OL alone) and OLs
administered concomitantly with 100, 200, or 300 mg Ca. Timed
urine samples after the OL were collected at 2-h intervals for
the initial 6 h and samples were pooled into 9-h aliquots for
the remaining 18 h of the 24 h period. In R-1, 24-h mean
exogenous oxalate decreased (P < .05) after the OL from 36.2
mg (baseline) to 16.1 mg (after calcium carbonate) and to 14.3
mg (after CCM) whereas endogenous oxalate remained relatively
constant. Mean 24-h oxalate absorption decreased significantly
from that at the time of the baseline treatment (18.3%) after
both calcium carbonate (8.1%) and CCM (7.2%) treatments. In
R-2, mean 24-h oxalate absorption was significantly lower
after 200 (5.9%) and 300 (7.6%) mg Ca than after 100 mg Ca
(9.1%) and the OL alone
(11.3%). Concomitant meal ingestion significantly decreased
oxalate absorption in the absence of dietary calcium but
not in association with the 300-mg Ca treatment. The
overall data provide definitive evidence that dietary
calcium can reduce oxalate absorption and excretion.
Calcium carbonate and CCM were equally effective in this
regard and a minimum of 200 mg elemental Ca maximized this
effect in conjunction with an oxalic acid intake of 198
mg."
http://www.lef.org/prod_hp/abstracts/php-ab395c.html#137

--Hua Kul

  > I am looking for any info that one might have on a never
  > ending kidney stone problem that plagues both my sister and
  > I. My questions are as follows: (All tests show stones to
  > consist of Calcium/Oxalate and other tests show them to be
  > Calcium/Phosphate)

In the modern world, phosphate stones are usually Coca-Cola
poisoning.

Cut out soft drinks containing phosphoric acid (i.e. all
colas). There are other sources of dietary phosphorus you
might want to look at but for most people they're the biggie.

========> Email to "jc" at this site; email to "bogus" will
========> bounce. <========
Jack Campin: 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22
4PU; 0131 6604760 http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/purrhome.html
food intolerance data and recipes, freeware logic fonts for
the Macintosh, and Scots traditional music resources

spendo1~rogers.com (Shelli) wrote in message
news:<101030af.0209181910.6e8ad344~posting.google.com>...
  > Hi all:
  >
  > First time posting to this particular group, but it seems to
  > be the best place for information.
  >
  > I am looking for any info that one might have on a never
  > ending kidney stone problem that plagues both my sister
  > and I. The following may be hard to believe, but it is
  > the absolute truth. I have suffered with kidney stones
  > for 19 years straight without a break. I have passed over
  > 100 on my own.

I too have had a long history of calcium oxalate kidney
stones. My first occurred in 1954 when a junior in college. It
was removed by snagging it with a basket. More in the late
58's, removed by snagging. Then grew a big one which was
removed by cutting it out in 62. Then more chips that were
passed. In 1965, my urologist put me in a study that looked to
see if magnesium oxide and Vitamin B6 would inhibit stone
formation. For me, it did, and I have more or less stone free
EXCEPT for when I did not take the medications regularly.

In 1971, a heavy overtime schedule caused me to quite often
miss the afternoon taking, and I grew a large stone which was
cut out in 1972.

There were a few times when small chips were passed and I
attribute these occasions to times when I got sloppy in taking
the medications regularly.

In the 90's, I unknowingly bought a particular brand of
magnesium oxide which, I found out later, did now dissolve. A
large, difficult stone was passed in 1994. Since then, I have
been stone free.

I currently take 2, 250mg tablets of magnesium oxide and 25mg
of Vitamin B6 at breakfast and a like amount in the mid
afternoon. I've more or less been doing this ever since 1965.
After having experienced the traditional "climb the wall"
kidney stone pain a number of times, it is hard to forget.

Attached are the PubMed medline references to the
published reports.

1. Am J Clin Nutr 1967 May;20(5):393-399

Effect of daily MgO and vitamin B6 administration to patients
with recurring calcium oxalate kidney stones.

Gershoff SN, Prien EL

2. J Urol 1974 Oct;112(4):509-512

Magnesium oxide-pyridoxine therapy for recurrent calcium
oxalate calculi.

Prien EL, Gershoff SF

Any good librarian should be able to get you a copy of
these reports.

After getting on the internet in 1996, I found that magnesium
also helps prevent a host of other problems. You might want to
visit www.mgwater.com

I found a good laymans book on kidney stones in the mid 90's.
It was called "The Kidney Stone Handbook" by Gail Golomb.

Now, to throw a damp towel on it all,

I recently read an article on kidney stones in a mens
magazine. A researcher said, that to prevent stones, drink
lots of water, don't eat this.....and do eat that...., the
standard stuff that has been said for the last forty years. I
contacted the researcher and asked if they had not heard of
the above studies. They replied they were aware of them, that
the studies were poorly designed, and that others had not been
able to duplicate the results.

So my lack of stones has been all in my head. I'll settle for
that. And, keep taking the magnesium oxide and Vitamin B6.

eldred

Hua Kul wrote:

  > spendo1~rogers.com (Shelli) wrote in message
  > news:<101030af.0209181910.6e8ad344~posting.google.com>...
     > >
     > > As you can imagine, I am fed up with just waiting around
     > > for stones to pass and am very serious about trying things
     > > the "natural" way to see if it will help.
     > >
  > Shelli, I can't find the reference right now, but there is a
  > counterintuitive way to reduce the formation of calcium
  > oxalate in the kidneys--eat some calcium with each meal. The
  > oxalic acid in the meal will bind with the calcium in the
  > gut and pass out as solid waste. Here is a study indicating
  > dietary calcium will reduce elimination of oxalic acid in
  > the urine, IMO indicating the oxalic acid isn't making it as
  > far as the serum.
  >
  > "Effect of dietary calcium on urinary oxalate excretion
  > after oxalate loads

Again you need to have your own urine tell you the answer. If
you have a high oxalate in the urine then you might want to
look at that avenue. The other point I forget to mention is
that 25% of patient calcium stone formers is related to
excessive amounts of uric acid in the urine which is why I
mentioned the uric acid and again you need to measure that in
the urine.

Have your stones ever been analyzed - i.e. sent to the
pathology department for analysis? If so, what did that find?
If not, would you consider giving up some of those in your jar
for analysis? Ask your urologist.

Have you never collected any 24 hour urines for anything -
calcium, uric acid?

Judy Dilworth, M.T. (ASCP) Microbiology

Shelli wrote:
  >
  > Hi all:
  >
  > First time posting to this particular group, but it seems to
  > be the best place for information.
  >
  > I am looking for any info that one might have on a never
  > ending kidney stone problem that plagues both my sister and
  > I. The following may be hard to believe, but it is the
  > absolute truth. I have suffered with kidney stones for 19
  > years straight without a break. I have passed over 100 on my
  > own. (I keep them in a jar)

JEDilworth <bactitech~nospamhortonsbay.com> wrote in message
news:<3D8AA68E.3630741C~nospamhortonsbay.com>...
  > Have your stones ever been analyzed - i.e. sent to the
  > pathology department for analysis? If so, what did that
  > find? If not, would you consider giving up some of those in
  > your jar for analysis? Ask your urologist.
  >
  > Have you never collected any 24 hour urines for anything -
  > calcium, uric acid?
  >
  > Judy Dilworth, M.T. (ASCP) Microbiology
  >
  >Hi Judy:

Thank you all to have responded so far, your information is
appreciated. Yes, I've had the 24 hour thing done and was
told to cut out the foods containing oxalate and drink more
water. I've just noticed that the urologists themselves, only
treat the stones, not the whys of them forming. I actually
discussed this with my Doctor's nurse yesterday and she said
I have to go see a another kind of Dr. (it starts with an
"N") to get re-analized as I have stated very clearly that
the problem I am having now is not going to be brushed under
a rug until the next attack occurs. I realize that not much
care is taken to go that step further and really pursue the
issue at hand as to why I get so many stones. I was also told
that while I'm having these attacks, true blood and urine
readings might not show the proper results of any testing
being done, and that I'll have to wait until I'm "attack"
free for any true results to show anything. I have been
prescribed hydrochlothyrozide before, but stones still formed
and it bascially did nothing for me.

Again, thank you all for your the very good information you
have provided. I am printing everything off and bringing it
with me on Wednesday when I go back to hopefully get this dang
stent out. Keep it coming, and hopefully, I'll find what I
need to rid myself of this awful curse.

Thank you,

Shelli

http://www.curezone.com/cleanse/default.asp

"Shelli" <spendo1~rogers.com> wrote in message
news:101030af.0209181910.6e8ad344~posting.google.com...
  > Hi all:
  >
  > First time posting to this particular group, but it seems to
  > be the best place for information.
  >
  > I am looking for any info that one might have on a never
  > ending kidney stone problem that plagues both my sister and
  > I. The following may be hard to believe, but it is the
  > absolute truth. I have suffered with kidney stones for 19
  > years straight without a break. I have passed over 100 on my
  > own. (I keep them in a jar) I have had 5 lithotrypsies and 4
  > of those basket things when they pull them out of your
  > uereter. My recent episode was on August 18th on my right
  > side where after 5 days and 3 hospital visits I passed a 8
  > mm stone. When they did the IVP, they discovered a 2 cm
  > stone in my left side (hanging like a beehive) I was told
  > that I needed immediate lithotrypsy to blast it. I also have
  > two more still in my right kidney and a total of 3 in the
  > left.(prior to blasting). The blasting took place on 9th of
  > September. (2800 shock waves, the average is 2300) Well as
  > you can imagine, immediately after it was done, I went into
  > renal colic as the stone plugged every imaginable area in
  > the kidney it could. But, after a shot of Morphine I was
  > sent home and told, they'll pass. (my ass, I was thinking)
  > Anyway, Tuesday, back in the hospital, all morphed up, they
  > did a CT scan, another IVP, etc. etc. By Thursday, I was
  > stented, still am, and am looking for some serious answers
  > from the Dr.'s as to what went so wrong during the litho to
  > end up in such bad shape. I was given three choices by the
  > Dr's. #1 (stent) #2 tube through the back to go in and
  > directly remove the stones #3, leave all alone and watch my
  > kidney die. As noted, I took option #1. I've had a stent
  > before and it felt worse than the stone and had it removed
  > after two days. I've lasted a week with this one, but it
  > still feels like shit and Tylenol #3 is the only thing
  > keeping me sane. I am to get a KUB exray on Wednesday and
  > hopefully the stent removed. (Is this when all the blasted
  > pieces come out? Only a small fraction of gravel and sand
  > has come out so far)
  >
  > My questions are as follows: (All tests show stones to
  > consist of Calcium/Oxalate and other tests show them to be
  > Calcium/Phosphate)
  >
  > #1 Any advice on how to tollerate this stent 2 After many
  > #searches, is there any truth or validation to taking
  > Vitamin B6/Magnesuim to prevent further stones (if so, how
  > much in a day do I need)
  > #3 Is there any truth to the "apple cider vinegar"
  > #connection to
  > dissolving present stones. (does the pill form work the same
  > as straight up??)
  >
  > I know many of you may wonder what the Dr's oppinion on
  > prevention, etc.., but the only advice I have ever received
  > was to drink water. I have never been given any clear advice
  > to prevent stones. I have only been treated with the ones I
  > get, then sent on my merry way. I find this a common
  > situation with other stone sufferers.
  >
  > As you can imagine, I am fed up with just waiting around for
  > stones to pass and am very serious about trying things the
  > "natural" way to see if it will help.
  >
  > I have stopped drinking all forms of pop (I was a Diet Coke
  > addict), I started taking the B6/Magnesium combo, I've
  > started taking apple cider vinegar supplements. I drink
  > nothing but water, juice and 5Alive (is this good?) My diet
  > habits are that of a normal person: Chicken, vegetables,
  > rice, pasta, nothing in access. I eat very little red meat.
  > I also snack on, but not in access on the usual junk food.
  > We eat out at fast food joints about once a week. I do
  > however, like my cookies :-).
  >
  > Any useful information would be greatly appreciated and if
  > someone out there has the answers for me that would put an
  > end to my suffering, please pass it on.
  >
  > Thanks guys,
  >
  > Shelli

Regarding the parasite cleanse - I have done hundreds of O&P
examinations on fecal specimens over the course of my career.
In the US, very few stools are positive for parasites. This
obviously differs depending on the population tested. The part
of your page alone makes me doubt most of the stuff on the
entire site. This is not to say, however, that parasites do
not occur. A huge percentage of the world lives with their
parasites on a daily basis, and they can cause much misery, as
exemplified by the pictures.

That being said, the photos on this site of parasites are
truly amazing and rival anything I've seen in textbooks.
Please realize, however, that while this infestation does
occur to millions world wide, it is pretty rare if you're
drinking city water and eating grocery store food.

In other words, don't let all those pictures scare you to
death that you have these parasites. Chances are you do not.

Judy Dilworth, M.T. (ASCP) Microbiology

john wrote:
  >
  > http://www.curezone.com/cleanse/default.asp