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  #1   ^
Old Mon, Aug-06-18, 06:33
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Demi Demi is offline
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Default How an all-beef diet cured depression

Quote:
From The Times
London, UK
6 August, 2018

Carnivore diet: Jordan Peterson and his daughter, Mikhaila, say eating only beef cured their depression


The lifestyle guru Jordan Peterson and his daughter believe a ‘meat only’ diet has transformed their health. They’re not alone


For those familiar with the world of Jordan Peterson, it may come as no surprise that he is a red-blooded carnivore. I do not mean that as some kind of intellectual metaphor. Yes, the Canadian psychology professor turned lifestyle guru to millions of young men worldwide has always regarded intellectual pursuits as something of a blood sport, but now he has become evangelical about his diet. “I eat beef, salt and water. That’s it,” he says. Or rather, meat seasoned with the controversy he finds so appetising.

For Peterson has joined the new fashion for a “carnivore” diet, claiming it saved him from his lifelong depression. This comes just as mainstream medical bodies are becoming more concerned about our red meat intake, which is associated with cancer among other diseases.

The idea that someone would go to the other extreme and eat only red meat is so countercultural as to be somewhat delicious, and that is of course just the way Peterson, scourge of political correctness, likes it. You can imagine him being deeply suspicious of quinoa — thinking it some kind of liberal conspiracy. Or having a problem with salad — as being perhaps too feminist. Peterson is the kind of person who can make breakfast political. Of course, he dines in a manner that is radical and retrograde, but, in fact, his feasting like a tiger in a zoo opens up a fascinating and fast-evolving field of new medical research into the neglected area of depression and diet.

“I need less sleep. I’m not anxious, not depressed,” Peterson said last month with the air of someone reeling from a miracle, and in fact the beef and water diet is so ascetic as to feel semi-religious. “I am intellectually at my very best at the moment. The depression is gone.”

What do we know so far about diet and depression? I spoke to half a dozen medical researchers in the field and the consensus is that we do not know enough. What we are just learning is that diet probably will turn out to have a significant impact on mental health, be it because of foods that cause inflammation or starve a healthy gut microbiome.

Mikhaila Peterson is Jordan Peterson’s 26-year-old daughter and the inspiration for his radical diet. She has an Instagram account subtitled “Beef, salt, water and bourbon = cured” and a food blog called Don’t Eat That, subtitled “Many (if not most) health problems are treatable with diet alone”, in which she chronicles her and her father’s remarkable recovery from depression and anxiety. He now wakes without a feeling of doom, she reports jubilantly, and adds, in Peterson defiance mode, “F*** you, world — we won.”

This all makes Mikhaila the poster girl for the carnivore-diet movement, gaining traction among a similar crowd who already idolise Jordan, the highly influential bestselling author of 12 Rules for Life, whose YouTube videos have been viewed more than 50 million times. Mikhaila has also done a lot of YouTube interviews. Yet what I find so appealing when I talk to her is that she knows that what she is doing sounds weird and can laugh about it. “Sounds absolutely insane,” she says, and she knows there is no medical evidence to back it up. She laughs when I say her family have become “reluctantly kooky”.

“Yes. Totally. I was always really sceptical about diet. I thought it was for silly Californian girls. My father certainly did not want to get into this. He was always against diet as a solution because there was no hard scientific evidence linking to diet. At the beginning he was, like, ‘I’m not even going to mention this — it’s too weird.’ Now I’m literally eating the most extreme diet I’ve ever heard of. It’s absurd.” She laughs again.

She looks gorgeously healthy and has a baby daughter, who is nearly one year old (and, by the way, survives only on meat and breast milk), but from infancy Peterson was very ill. She had severe juvenile rheumatoid arthritis that degenerated to the point that she had to have a hip and ankle replacement at the age of 17 and suffered chronic, severe pain. Given the new research into the link between depression and inflammation, it’s no surprise that, as a sufferer of an inflammatory illness, she developed depression in her late teens. It became so crippling that she could not finish university. She became “desperate to try anything” and began eliminating food groups. She remembers typing “allergic to everything” into Google. Then “allergic to everything except meat”. She says that she discovered “beef is what makes me feel the best”. She fries strips of it with “just salt. Pepper doesn’t work.”

Oh, I say, not even a few grains of pepper? Some tea? “No,” she says. “Nothing else. Just sparkling water.” She reports that since January her depression and arthritis have resolved. Her doctors, she says, believe the results are a “placebo effect”. She, by contrast, thinks that her microbiome is unsuited to anything other than meat. She knows this goes against every “eat your greens” dietary guideline — “Completely, yes.” She has not yet got scurvy, she says, and adds that most studies showing meat to be unhealthy find it hard to get around the problem of meat-eaters generally living unhealthily in other ways.

So far, the results of research into the relationship between diet and mood look conflicting. In some, vegetarians were less depressed; in others, more. One study from Bristol University last year found vegetarian men were more likely to be depressed and an Australian study in 2014 found that women who ate little meat were twice as likely to be depressed as others. These were counteracted by a much larger meta-analysis last year that found that “meat consumption may be associated with a moderately higher risk of depression”.

Really, they tell you little until you start testing diet in the same way as you would a drug, with randomised control trials. It is universally accepted that there are way too few of these in the case of depression, but last year Professor Felice Jacka, the director of the Food and Mood Centre at Deakin University in Australia, randomly assigned depressed patients to either visits from social workers or the Mediterranean diet (their medications remained the same). A third of the diet group improved significantly, as opposed to 8 per cent of the non-diet group. The diet they followed was high in olive oil, nuts and vegetables, but restricted lean red meat to no more than three times a week. “The immune system, brain plasticity and gut microbiota seem to be central not just to our physical health, but also our mental health,” Jacka said.

What about the Masai and the Inuit, though? This is the cry of the meat champions, Michael Mosley warns me. Mosley is a doctor and broadcaster with a special interest in diet and health; he once put himself on an experimental high-meat diet. “Everyone talks about the Masai, but the idea that they exist on meat and blood is based on some very dodgy observations in the 1940s; it’s a myth,” he says. It’s the same with the Inuit, whose high-blubber diet gives them just as much or more heart disease as the rest of us. Mosley’s research for his new book, The Clever Guts Diet , shows that your microbiome feeds on fibre “and you are not going to get that from meat”. A healthy microbiome in your gut produces special fatty acids that are anti-inflammatory. “That depression and anxiety is linked to inflammatory foods is strong in animals and emerging in humans.”

James Hébert is a professor of epidemiology at the University of South Carolina who for the past decade has been researching the connection between health and the foods that cause an inflammatory response in the body. He told me that all of his and his colleagues’ studies showed that “increased meat intake led to a higher risk of depression. There was a dose response.” This, he says, came as a shock.

“Of course, colorectal cancer was the most strongly associated with inflammatory foods, which makes perfect sense,” Hébert says, “but I have to emphasise how surprised I was to find such a strong relationship with depression.”

His work aligns with emerging theories about depression and inflammation. Herbert now restricts his meat intake to special occasions. His team’s research suggests that “we can provoke the same outcome on mental health as stress by messing with diet”. By “messing” he means reducing vegetables and wholegrains and upping sugar and meat.

Emma Morano was one of the longest-living women in history; she died at 117, cheerful to the last. Her diet was surprising. She subsisted on biscuits and three eggs a day and, when she turned 100, added raw mince with a little pasta. She was famed for her good cheer, so is not a great example for the “anti-inflammatory” diet proponents, but Professor Valter Longo likes to tell her story anyway.

Longo is the director of the University of Southern California Longevity Institute and the author of The Longevity Diet. He is famous for his research into fasting, diet and longevity. “Meat is nearly absent from the diet of the longest-lived people in the world,” he says. Sardinians traditionally eat meat less than once a week, “and lead long, very happy lives”.

Drawing together what we know so far, Longo says that “a diet with a lot of meat is the worst you could follow” and as a result he gave it up decades ago. However, he acknowledges that individuals such as Jordan and Mikhaila Peterson, “with a particular genetic condition”, can buck the trend.

Longo says there’s a twist, though. Research shows that a low-protein diet is good for you up until the age of 65, he says. Then your inflammatory response to meat seems to drop, and the protein and iron may be useful. As an Italian, Longo is a friend of Morano’s doctor, Carlo Bava. Bava was the one who suggested to Morano that she up her meat intake in her second century. “When you get to 100, meat may start to be a really good idea.”


https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/...ssion-7hrxc97bq
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  #2   ^
Old Mon, Aug-06-18, 06:49
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Ms Arielle Ms Arielle is offline
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I love beef and cant imagine a life without it however......commercially produced beef is not the same meat that the Inuit traditionally eat, not the Masi people.

Inuit traditional foods are wild caught, not grain fed. ANd not limited to one type of meat. Seal, fish, whale, bear, caribou. All wild caught traditionally. ANimals that never saw grain, antibiotics, pesticides. Same for the Masi, whose cattle grazed on the wild scrublands. No pesticides, no antibiotics, no grains.

There is no mention of the source of their beef. Is it the commercial beef commonly in the grocery stores, or is it from a natural producer that focuses on grass feeding which in turn lowers or minimizes pesticides, antibiotics and can eliminate herbicides.

There is no mention of their beef coming from one farm or a variety of farms.

The brain is a complicated organ, and depression is a complicated issue. Again there is no mention of not addressing any other option that might impacct their outcome. DO they sit out on the porch more to eat their burgers? Or if grassfed, the extra A and D supports better brain health? Or if grassfed, the omega 3 and omega 6 is in an ideal balance, for brain health??

I love beef, but see too many unanswered questions.
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Old Mon, Aug-06-18, 06:50
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Ms Arielle Ms Arielle is offline
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Thanks Demi for posting such interesting articles. Keep it up.
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  #4   ^
Old Mon, Aug-06-18, 07:10
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teaser teaser is offline
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Wonder where Mosley got the Inuit-->heart disease thing? Maybe here;

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12535749

Quote:
Low incidence of cardiovascular disease among the Inuit--what is the evidence?

BACKGROUND:
The notion that the incidence of ischemic heart disease (IHD) is low among the Inuit subsisting on a traditional marine diet has attained axiomatic status. The scientific evidence for this is weak and rests on early clinical evidence and uncertain mortality statistics.

METHODS:
We reviewed the literature and performed new analyses of the mortality statistics from Greenland, Canada, and Alaska.

FINDINGS:
The evidence for a low mortality from IHD among the Inuit is fragile and rests on unreliable mortality statistics. Mortality from stroke, however, is higher among the Inuit than among other western populations. Based on the examination of 15 candidate gene polymorphisms, the Inuit genetic architecture does not obviously explain putative differences in cardiovascular disease prevalence.

INTERPRETATION:
The mortality from all cardiovascular diseases combined is not lower among the Inuit than in white comparison populations. If the mortality from IHD is low, it seems not to be associated with a low prevalence of general atherosclerosis. A decreasing trend in mortality from IHD in Inuit populations undergoing rapid westernization supports the need for a critical rethinking of cardiovascular epidemiology among the Inuit and the role of a marine diet in this population.



Just an abstract, but one I'm willing to go to town with.

The red

Quote:
The scientific evidence for this is weak and rests on early clinical evidence and uncertain mortality statistics.


Yuh. Translation: we tossed the older data that actually involves Inuit living on their traditional, pre-Columbus diet. To represent the "traditional" non-Westernized diet--we take the data of later years, when things like fried bread are already considered "traditional" Inuit foods. The earliest exposure to Western food--refined wheat flour, sugar, dense foods that could more affordably be shipped to remote places. There's also the question of access to tobacco at various different time points. And increasing access to modern medicine that coincides with westernization. And...
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  #5   ^
Old Mon, Aug-06-18, 07:22
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Ms Arielle Ms Arielle is offline
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A study I stumbled upon many years ago, and no longer have the link:

Many Inuit communities were receiveing food from the AMerican government back in the 1920'. Enought that tooth decay was well established among the recipients, whereas those on a more traditional diet had much fewer cavieties.
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Old Mon, Aug-06-18, 07:27
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teaser teaser is offline
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I think grain-fed is fine. At least for the people who eat it in the right dietary context. There's good evidence for the value of a low carb or ketogenic diet, I don't see a lot for grain-fed being deadly vs. grass-fed. I'm with Dr. Westman on not pricing people right out of a healthy diet without solid evidence.

I hate the slant of the article that tried to make the Peterson's diet political. It's not.
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Old Mon, Aug-06-18, 07:46
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DancinGurl DancinGurl is offline
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In GCBC, Gary Taubes discussed dental issues being worsened after native populations adopted westernized eating patterns. The diseases of civilization are many and varied.

And from the above article:
“His (Hebert’s) work aligns with emerging theories about depression and inflammation. Herbert now restricts his meat intake to special occasions. His team’s research suggests that “we can provoke the same outcome on mental health as stress by messing with diet”. By “messing” he means reducing vegetables and wholegrains and upping sugar and meat.”

SUGAR and meat. Gee, what’s truly inflammatory.
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Old Mon, Aug-06-18, 07:55
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cotonpal cotonpal is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DancinGurl
And from the above article:
“His (Hebert’s) work aligns with emerging theories about depression and inflammation. Herbert now restricts his meat intake to special occasions. His team’s research suggests that “we can provoke the same outcome on mental health as stress by messing with diet”. By “messing” he means reducing vegetables and wholegrains and upping sugar and meat.”

SUGAR and meat. Gee, what’s truly inflammatory.


That's what stuck out to me also, sugar and meat in the same breath (or the same mouthful). This is a truly foolish uninformative article. I suffered from severe depression most of my adult life until I switched to a low carb/ketogenic diet. I didn't need to switch to a 0 carb all beef diet which doesn't mean it isn't effective, but why? Is it what one is eating or what one is not eating or some combination of the two?

Dr Georgia Ede writes a lot about diet and mental health. I'd much rather read what she has to say. http://www.diagnosisdiet.com/blog/
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Old Mon, Aug-06-18, 08:22
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Ms Arielle Ms Arielle is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teaser
I think grain-fed is fine. At least for the people who eat it in the right dietary context. There's good evidence for the value of a low carb or ketogenic diet, I don't see a lot for grain-fed being deadly vs. grass-fed. I'm with Dr. Westman on not pricing people right out of a healthy diet without solid evidence.

I hate the slant of the article that tried to make the Peterson's diet political. It's not.



The Omega 3 and omega 6 are out of wack. It is because grain fed animals are very high in omega 6. ANd lower in omega 3. Animals do not eat grains, unless provided by humans. The imflammation levels due to this imbalance is not healthy.

We are spoiled by cheap meats. ANd it is killing us.
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Old Mon, Aug-06-18, 08:25
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Agree with that not pricing people out of a healthy diet concept. Grass-fed high quality would be great but is beyond my food budget, as well as conventionally produced nicer cuts like rib-eye unless there's a spectacular sales event to stock up on. So far I think I'm better off doing my N=1 all animal foods experiment with the cheaper conventional cuts than not doing it at all due to the cost of better quality. I'll continue to see how things go.
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Old Mon, Aug-06-18, 08:25
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Quote:
Research shows that a low-protein diet is good for you up until the age of 65, he says. Then your inflammatory response to meat seems to drop, and the protein and iron may be useful.


Never heard that before. I've found I feel less like eating meat as I've gotten older, but I'm not 65 yet!

The thing about depression and diet is that everyone's different, and I suspect most of us are not all the way one way or another on a particular spectrum such as "all beef", but rather some of this and some of that.

Serotonin gets short shrift in a very low carb diet which clearly works for some people just as they may have responded to a norepinephrine boosting anti-depressant; for others, it's an SSRI which would probably correspond to a higher carb diet or some other intervention. Or a combination.

It's maddening that depression is not investigated more in terms of diet and nutrition. I've found, for instance, that to be ok I seem to need more than an average amount of magnesium.
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Old Mon, Aug-06-18, 08:39
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None of the research quoted is about people deliberately eating only meat/animal foods trying to improve their health, and it's mainly just correlation studies that can show people who eat more meat (when they believe it's not healthy because Dr. or government chart says so) likely don't care about their health much. And they keep talking about "inflammatory" foods. Yes, I think that is a problem for depression and eliminating those foods could be highly beneficial. But meat isn't one of them. Meat tends to be one of the very low inflammation foods.
Increased meat and sugar? Yeah, that'll cause some problems because they've lumped in sugar with the meat. Washing down that meat in the big bun with a coke? Yeah that kind of high meat consumption is a problem. Not the same as an all meat diet at all. Can't predict the results of one from the other.
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Old Mon, Aug-06-18, 08:40
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teaser teaser is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ms Arielle
The Omega 3 and omega 6 are out of wack. It is because grain fed animals are very high in omega 6. ANd lower in omega 3. Animals do not eat grains, unless provided by humans. The imflammation levels due to this imbalance is not healthy.

We are spoiled by cheap meats. ANd it is killing us.



This argument may fly for pork and chicken, not so much for beef and other ruminants, the polyunsaturated fat that actually makes it into their flesh and milk is very low, omega 3 or 6. The ratio of 3:6 is higher with grass than with grain fed, but absolute numbers are low enough that it probably doesn't matter.

I'm probably less worried than average in the low carb community about omega 6 fatty acids anyways. But enough of my dietary fat comes from low-polyunsaturate dairy fat that my bet is sort of hedged, my absolute omega 6 intake is fairly low.
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Old Mon, Aug-06-18, 08:48
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Ms Arielle Ms Arielle is offline
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This is Dr Edes article on the study and why it should be tossed out.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/...ptsd-or-does-it


IMO we need studies that start with eating healthy foods all the time.

Otherwise I am past tired of meat studies that dont recognize the diferences between organic/ non-organic and grassfed/non-grassfed.

I remember Dr Owen, PhD teaching a class at UMO, when talking about the toxicity of adipose tissue. He was refering to a fellow professor that was over weight and didnt want to release the stored toxins by going on a diet to shed that extra body weight. The fat soluable toxins are by far the worst because the fatty tissues suck them up. These men were from the department of WIldlife Biology and Management, not even from the Agriculture Department of ANimal Science and Human Diets.
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Old Mon, Aug-06-18, 08:56
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teaser teaser is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ms Arielle
This is Dr Edes article on the study and why it should be tossed out.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/...ptsd-or-does-it


IMO we need studies that start with eating healthy foods all the time.

Otherwise I am past tired of meat studies that don't recognize the diferences between organic/ non-organic and grassfed/non-grassfed.


I do look forward to studies showing any benefit to grassfed vs. non-grassfed. Recognizing differences won't really help until there's work done to show that the one is genuinely helpful (or conversely, the other genuinely harmful) vs. the other.

It doesn't work for me to criticize a bit of epidemiology that doesn't actually show causation and is hopelessly confounded by saying "yeah, but that's in grain fed beef." First somebody has to actually pin something on the grain fed beef. And if they did--until there was evidence otherwise, I'd have to hold grassfed beef under suspicion as well, because the two have more in common than they have differences.

edited to fix "hopefully" to the intended "hopelessly." Autospell run amuck, or Freudian slip?
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