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  #1   ^
Old Sat, Apr-28-18, 21:51
Vicky B's Avatar
Vicky B Vicky B is offline
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Posts: 28
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 183/180/145 Female 5' 7"
BF:
Progress: 8%
Location: Oregon
Default Do Atkiners count calories?

Hello again, my new friends. Just signed up a few days ago and looking forward to sharing.

I have a question. Do Atkiners count calories? I've noticed some folks here do via their posts, but I never thought counting calories was a necessity - at least not from reading the ADR 2002 book.

Thoughts?



Last edited by Vicky B : Sat, Apr-28-18 at 23:36. Reason: Adding ticker
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  #2   ^
Old Sun, Apr-29-18, 05:41
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is online now
Senior Member
Posts: 12,841
 
Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches
BF:
Progress: 104%
Location: Ontario
Default

https://www.ou.org/torah/parsha/rab...three-opinions/

Quote:
We all nod our heads in agreement when we hear the phrase, “Two Jews, three opinions.” We similarly chuckle when we hear the anecdote about the Jew who was discovered after years of living alone on a desert island. His rescuers noticed that he had built two huts aside from the one he lived in. He told the puzzled people who saved him that they were shuls, or synagogues. When asked why he needed two shuls, he retorted, “One is the one in which I pray, and the other is the one into which I would never set foot.”


Not meant as a religious post. Two Atkiners, three opinions.

Dr. Jason Fung has a saying, Calorie Restriction As Primary, or CRAP. This is pretty much how I see it, too. Restricting calories without considering the other qualities of the food you're eating, like the micronutrient ratio, how insulinogenic the combination of those macros will be, etc., isn't that effective. Cut the carbs and appetite and calories becomes manageable.

My experience--straight Atkins lost me about 20 pounds, brought me from the cusp of obesity by bmi to borderline overweight. Going to a more ketogenic ratio brought me down another 10 pounds.

That last bit isn't quite true. I counted calories and ate higher protein to lose that last ten pounds (actually more like 15 pounds). At that lower weight, I developed a problem with binges, including some high carb binges that I hadn't had any problem with for like a decade (long time between that first 20 pounds and the next ten). That's when I tried a more ketogenic approach, which pretty much put an end to the tendency to binge. The binge tendency is still there if I loosen up on keto too much.

So how I read this, just eating protein and fat at will sort of lower my set point vs. SAD. Calorie restriction once I hit that set point reduced my weight further, but there's no getting away from the fact that at 155 pounds, I was well below the point where my weight settled on Atkins, and had strong symptoms such as binge tendency, increased general appetite, and lethargy of being well below my set point.. Eating keto I did regain some weight, but just five pounds rather than the usual fifteen, and maintain a lower weight without those binges and lethargy.
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  #3   ^
Old Sun, Apr-29-18, 06:50
Ms Arielle's Avatar
Ms Arielle Ms Arielle is offline
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Posts: 8,240
 
Plan: atkins
Stats: 247/218/153 Female 5'8"
BF:
Progress: 31%
Location: Massachusetts
Default

When low carbers are not loosing and making progress, then counting calories is helpful.

DANDR is based on simple premise of serving of meat and a cup of leafy veg or other allowed lc veg. This works for most according to DANDR. Some need fat fast, some need IF, some need calorie counting, some need more fat.......

DANDR mentions liberal use of fats, and with decrease of appetite an overall decrease in food consumption. Which is a decrease in calorie intake. Just not literally counted. Some folks do like to track the calories.

We do what works for each of us.

Last edited by Ms Arielle : Sun, Apr-29-18 at 06:55.
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  #4   ^
Old Sun, Apr-29-18, 09:14
barb712's Avatar
barb712 barb712 is offline
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Posts: 517
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 240/210/200 Female 5 feet 11 inches
BF:27%
Progress: 75%
Location: USA
Default

It's best to read one of the Diet Revolution books and see what Dr. Atkins himself has to say.

Last edited by barb712 : Mon, Apr-30-18 at 08:20.
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  #5   ^
Old Sun, Apr-29-18, 15:42
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is online now
To Good Health!
Posts: 10,322
 
Plan: IF Fung/LC Westman/Primal
Stats: 222/171/169 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/25.3%/24%
Progress: 96%
Location: NC
Default

Oh my, that question that confounds low carbers...and even the reasearchers still. But Dr. Atkins himself wrote:

Quote:
Here's what Atkins has to say about it (courtesy of cnmLisa):


Dr. Atkins New Diet Revolution
1992, 1999, 2002
p.143

“Although there is no need to count calories, they do matter. Gaining weight results from taking in more calories than you expend through exercise, thermogenesis, and other metabolic functions. Research has shown that on a controlled carbohydrate program, more calories are burned than in a low fat/high carb diet so that there is a certain metabolic advantage to the controlled carb approach. But understand that this does not give you a license to gorge.”



Dr. Atkins Super Energy Diet
1977
p.205

“If weight loss stops short of your ideal weight, even though you are producing ketones. You must conclude that the quantities within the diet are too great. The diet usually works best with just enough calories to stave off hunger. Too many people misinterpret the instructions regarding the diet as “Eat Unrestrictedly.” When they do this they will still lose weight in the beginning, which will reinforce their assurance that no heed whatever need be paid to quantities. In most cases, this practice will lead to a stalemate partway to the desired goal”.



p.205
“You may have to count calories in addition to carbohydrate. I have never said that calories don’t count, because I know of course that they do. I say that carbohydrate counts more. If your case is especially difficult, you may have to count both.

For most people, restricting carbohydrates is all that is necessary. However, there is no question that a 1500 calories 10 gram diet will take more weight off, and more quickly than a 2000 calorie-10 gram diet. So if you are having trouble losing you should cut down on your quantities, but not to the point where you where you have to put up with discomfort or hunger”



Dr. Atkins Diet Revolution
1972
p.275

“Q. Don’t calories play any role?

A. There’s no question—of course they do. A 1500-calorie, 10-gram diet will take more weight off—and more quickly—than a 2000-calorie, 10-gram diet. If the carbohydrate levels remain unchanged, then the extra caloric intake does make a difference. People who eat out of force of habit and don’t cut their quantities lose more slowly because of their high caloric intake.

If you can cut down on your quantities, you are better off to do so—but not when it gets to the point where you have to put up with discomfort or hunger.

I’m not saying that calories don’t count, I’m saying that a low calorie diet is a second best diet.”
__________________


And Dr. Westman echoed the same view in this 5 minute video on "Stalling on Low Carb" https://www.facebook.com/AdaptYourL...hDydPexEmsTmnIY

Last edited by JEY100 : Sun, Apr-29-18 at 15:56.
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  #6   ^
Old Sun, Apr-29-18, 16:11
Kristine's Avatar
Kristine Kristine is offline
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Posts: 18,916
 
Plan: Primal
Stats: 171/155/155 Female 5'7"
BF:
Progress: 100%
Location: Southern Ontario, Canada
Default

Hi Vicky. IMO, no. Mainly for the reasons Teaser mentioned - starvation, repackaged. Too many folks try to calorie count as a shortcut. Don't. If I read your profile correctly, you started less than a week ago. Follow the plan as written and let your metabolism and your satiety mechanisms heal. Compliance trumps everything. Eat and be happy. Learn how awesome good healthy low carb meals can be. Don't complicate it.

Another reason I'm against calorie counting for Atkins early on is that you'll be tempted to make junky food subs. The lower cal version of practically everything is inferior. Eat real fatty food. If you feel you should, count portions not calories. Can you get by with 2 eggs instead of 3? Maybe a medium coffee instead of a large? Are you snacking when you're not hungry?

Calorie counting isn't very accurate, anyway. I made ribs last week by cooking them over a trivet in the pressure cooker, with a sauce over them. There was a lot of juice and I had to simmer the sauce down. I like ribs, but I ended up spitting out some gristly pieces. How the heck am I supposed to know how many calories I ate? Same with my homemade broth and yogurt.

The nice thing about Atkins induction is that if you follow the rules, there's not a lot to count other than measuring your Tbsps of cream and cups of veggies. It really is that easy. Best of luck.
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  #7   ^
Old Sun, Apr-29-18, 16:27
dcc0455 dcc0455 is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 139
 
Plan: Low Carb
Stats: 224/155/155 Male 67
BF:
Progress: 100%
Default

I don't speak for Atkiners, but here is my 2 cents. The first goal is to get fat adapted and replacing glucose with ketones. During this period, you should eat as much fat and protein as required to keep you on plan. Once you are fat adapted, your appetite may be reduced, essentially becoming self regulating. However, this doesn't happen for everyone, and if it doesn't, you may need to count calories to continue losing weight. That doesn't mean adopt a strict low calorie regime, but as the quotes provided by JEY100 suggest, calories do matter.

Last edited by dcc0455 : Sun, Apr-29-18 at 16:58.
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  #8   ^
Old Sun, Apr-29-18, 18:23
Vicky B's Avatar
Vicky B Vicky B is offline
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Posts: 28
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 183/180/145 Female 5' 7"
BF:
Progress: 8%
Location: Oregon
Default

Makes total sense, thank you!
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  #9   ^
Old Sun, Apr-29-18, 18:30
Vicky B's Avatar
Vicky B Vicky B is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 28
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 183/180/145 Female 5' 7"
BF:
Progress: 8%
Location: Oregon
Default

Binging has been my thing, too. I tried Atkins about 6 years ago and lost 30 lbs very quickly. But as I age, it seems to come off much slower and, if I binge on only one thing during one day, it's all downhill for me until I crash/burn.

I'm not one to count calories, and really never have. However, counting carbs has always been so easy for me... well, until I fall off the wagon.
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  #10   ^
Old Sun, Apr-29-18, 18:33
Vicky B's Avatar
Vicky B Vicky B is offline
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Posts: 28
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 183/180/145 Female 5' 7"
BF:
Progress: 8%
Location: Oregon
Default

I vaguely remember something to that effect. For some reason, not paying attention to calories stuck in my head That's why I was asking because I didn't think calories mattered following Atkins.

Quote:
Originally Posted by barb712
Dr. Atkins himself specifically advised in his original 1972 book not to count calories, and he quizzically asked why so many people are doing that.
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  #11   ^
Old Sun, Apr-29-18, 18:34
Vicky B's Avatar
Vicky B Vicky B is offline
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Posts: 28
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 183/180/145 Female 5' 7"
BF:
Progress: 8%
Location: Oregon
Default

Wow Janet, thank you!
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  #12   ^
Old Sun, Apr-29-18, 18:37
Vicky B's Avatar
Vicky B Vicky B is offline
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Posts: 28
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 183/180/145 Female 5' 7"
BF:
Progress: 8%
Location: Oregon
Default

Thank you, Kristine, for your input here. Very, very helpful.
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  #13   ^
Old Mon, Apr-30-18, 13:17
deirdra's Avatar
deirdra deirdra is offline
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Posts: 3,849
 
Plan: HF/vLC/GF,CF,SF
Stats: 197/136/150 Female 66 inches
BF:
Progress: 130%
Location: Alberta
Default

Vicky B, are you binging on any one thing in particular? Although low-carb, dairy products like yogurt & cream cheese cause me cravings and binges, so I keep them out of the house. Instead I fill the house only with foods that don't trigger binges, with lots of variety so there is always something that I actually enjoy.
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  #14   ^
Old Tue, May-01-18, 16:07
mike_d's Avatar
mike_d mike_d is offline
Grease is the word!
Posts: 8,294
 
Plan: PSMF/IF
Stats: 236/181/180 Male 72 inches
BF:disappearing!
Progress: 98%
Location: Alamo city, Texas
Default

Near goal I do, and fasting on occasion helps too.

Some dietitians and 'experts' claim Atkins works because it naturally cuts calories and "a whole food group" but I beg to differ. Eating fried pork fat like I sometimes do or rib-eye with lots of butter is not calorie cutting.
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  #15   ^
Old Mon, May-14-18, 18:54
Vicky B's Avatar
Vicky B Vicky B is offline
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Posts: 28
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 183/180/145 Female 5' 7"
BF:
Progress: 8%
Location: Oregon
Default Snap Peas

Deirda, yes, I am guilty of binging. I can't seem to shake snap peas. I buy a small package in the produce section but I can easily eat 3/4 of a bag in one sitting, as long as I have a low carb ranch dressing in the fridge.



Quote:
Originally Posted by deirdra
Vicky B, are you binging on any one thing in particular? Although low-carb, dairy products like yogurt & cream cheese cause me cravings and binges, so I keep them out of the house. Instead I fill the house only with foods that don't trigger binges, with lots of variety so there is always something that I actually enjoy.
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