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  #31   ^
Old Thu, Dec-07-17, 05:43
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is offline
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I'm okay with the semantic argument for not calling it an addiction, I disagree with it, but it's just about which words to use. But yeah. I eat ketogenically, and Dad can stick some peanut butter in the fridge and I can take it or leave it. Eat less ketogenically, and he might be out of peanut butter tomorrow. And it's not just about giving in to cravings--I'll still like the peanut butter, whatever my metabolic state, it just won't be as urgent, interest as opposed to drive.

Article in sciencedaily that fits this discussion;
Quote:
Binge eating linked to weight-loss challenges

Someone who binge eats consumes an objectively large amount of food while feeling a loss of control over eating. When episodes occur weekly for several months, the action moves into the realm of binge-eating disorder. So how does this type of eating affect people with Type 2 diabetes and obesity who are actively working to lose weight?

According to new findings from the University of Pennsylvania published in the journal Obesity, it presents a significant obstacle: Those who continue to binge eat while trying to lose weight drop about half as much as those who don't or those who do and then subsequently stop.

"Continued binge eating can act as a barrier to achieving success," said Ariana Chao, an assistant professor in the Penn School of Nursing.

Chao studies how addictive-like eating behaviors influence treatment effectiveness for different populations. To better understand the role of binge eating in weight loss, she and colleagues from Penn's Perelman School of Medicine, the Children's Hospital of Philadelphia, the University of Connecticut and the National Institute of Diabetes and Digestive and Kidney Diseases assessed data from a study called Action for Health in Diabetes, or Look AHEAD. This multi-center randomized, controlled trial included more than 5,000 participants ages 45 to 76, all with a body mass index above 25 (or 27 for those using insulin) and Type 2 diabetes.

Look AHEAD's original aim was to compare the effects on cardiovascular morbidity and mortality of two treatment options: an intensive lifestyle intervention designed to induce weight loss and diabetes support and education. The former included dietary recommendations, physical activity and behavior modifications; those in the latter group were encouraged to attend three sessions per year, one each about physical activity, social support and eating.

In addition, Look AHEAD annually assessed binge eating. Via a questionnaire, participants noted any instances in the past six months during which they consumed excess food and felt a lack of control over that consumption.

For this study, Chao and her team, which included Thomas Wadden, the Albert J. Stunkard Professor of Psychology in Psychiatry and director of Penn's Center for Weight and Eating Disorders, analyzed the impact of binge eating on weight loss. The researchers found that at four years, participants who reported no binge eating or a reduced tendency to do so lost more weight than those who continued to binge eat. Participants lost 4.6 percent of initial body weight compared to 1.9 percent.

"Previously, it was unclear whether people who binge eat need to be treated for that behavior before attempting behavioral weight loss or whether they'll do OK in behavioral weight loss without it," said Chao, who has a secondary appointment in the Department of Psychiatry. "Our findings suggest that people who continue to binge eat after they start a behavioral weight-loss program need an additional treatment like cognitive behavioral therapy, which is one of the most effective for this condition."

Such treatment includes work to recognize the interconnectedness of thoughts, feelings and behaviors, Chao said. For instance, if someone eats to cope with stress, CBT could aim to untangle why and how to change the behavior.

Though this study looked at a particular subset of people, two-thirds of the adult population in the United States is either overweight or obese. For that reason, Wadden said it's important for clinicians to screen for these behaviors and, if found, refer those patients for additional care.

"Individuals with a history of binge eating shouldn't be excluded or discouraged from engaging in behavioral weight loss," he said. "But binge eating should be monitored regularly during weight loss. Participants who continue to report this may benefit from additional or more targeted treatment to ensure success."


https://www.sciencedaily.com/releas...71205115949.htm
Addictive-like seems like a pretty good compromise.

Thoughts, feeling or behaviours--yeah, stress is a thing. My thoughts, feelings and behaviours are strongly affected by diet. Eating very ketogenically, my posts here get longer. I may be dubious of some of what I say, but I'll manage to say it. I'll make more typos, because I'm less scared of making a mistake. Less ketogenically--posts become short, I'll more often decide what I have to say is crap, and delete it.

And if I don't have my diet dialled in, weight loss makes binge eating more likely. I can go for years at 170 pounds, which is lighter than my top weight but still a bit overweight for my frame, and stay on plan with no obvious binge tendency. After losing 15 more pounds a few years ago, I found myself bingeing on ridiculous things like straight honey or maple syrup. Or bowl after bowl of flaxseed porridge. Which tastes okay, but I wouldn't call it hyper-palatable. Trying a strict ketogenic ratio had a dramatic effect. Which is a good thing, because the very idea of yoga or quiet meditation makes me want to break all my furniture.

I like the word "addiction" because behaviour is often mistaken for being mere behaviour. Like you made a wrong decision, like the effect of the substance on your metabolism doesn't factor in. A behaviourist working with rodents doesn't make this mistake, they'd speak of sugar or alcohol as substances to which we have the unconditioned response needed for the development of behaviour guided by a conditioned response. You can also call that a learned response, but if you consider learning as something strictly conscious, you miss a lot of the iceberg. Switch from rodents to humans, suddenly it's about thoughts, feelings and behaviours. Try taking a mind altering drug. If you can still think straight enough to, explain to me how thoughts, feelings and behaviours aren't the metabolism's cabana boys. We should be responsible, and our ability to be responsible depends on our metabolic state.
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  #32   ^
Old Fri, Dec-08-17, 07:52
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GRB5111 GRB5111 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teaser

I like the word "addiction" because behaviour is often mistaken for being mere behaviour. Like you made a wrong decision, like the effect of the substance on your metabolism doesn't factor in. A behaviourist working with rodents doesn't make this mistake, they'd speak of sugar or alcohol as substances to which we have the unconditioned response needed for the development of behaviour guided by a conditioned response. You can also call that a learned response, but if you consider learning as something strictly conscious, you miss a lot of the iceberg. Switch from rodents to humans, suddenly it's about thoughts, feelings and behaviours. Try taking a mind altering drug. If you can still think straight enough to, explain to me how thoughts, feelings and behaviours aren't the metabolism's cabana boys. We should be responsible, and our ability to be responsible depends on our metabolic state.

I, too, like the word "addiction." Your statement about "cabana boys" summarizes my view of this discussion very accurately. I describe myself as a reformed carb addict. The underlying metabolic influence is powerful and why I know I must stay away from this substance. If I could "have just one," I wouldn't have concern. Because I can't, it's important for me not to set off the metabolic chain of events I've become very aware of over the last several years.
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  #33   ^
Old Fri, Dec-08-17, 08:22
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khrussva khrussva is offline
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Plan: My own - < 30 net carbs
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From a marketing perspective, it seems to me that they've understood the addictive nature of carbs for quite some time. We all know the "Can't eat just one" potato chip slogan. If you can't, then something else is going on besides willful overindulgence.

Then there is the old 1970's Tootsie Pop TV commercial...

The kid asks the wise old owl "How many licks does it take to get to the center of a Tootsie Pop?"

The owl responds by doing a scientific experiment. An N=1 to find the answer. He snatches the sugary sweet from the kid's hand, then starts counting licks on the delicious Tootsie Pop...

"ONE"

"TWO"

[CRUNCH]

"THREE - The answer - it takes 3 licks to get to the center of a Tootsie Pop"


I knew people who could suck on a lolly pop all the way down to the core. I was a cruncher. I sum up what's going on like this... Lick 1 = moderation. Lick 2 = more moderation. Crunch = moderation over. Can't help myself; I want the good stuff right now. Control is out the window. The mini binge is on. The only thing missing is that the owl didn't ask the kid if he had anymore tootsie pops.

Both of these marketing campaigns seem to understand the concept of our general lack of self control when it comes to consuming their products. They chose to make light of the issue in their advertising campaigns. If everybody does it, then it is OK for me to do it.

So to borrow a line from the movie War Games, when it comes to carbs - for some of us "The only winning move is not to play". That is why abstinence works for me. No Tootsie Pops. No potato chips. Apparently this is something I CAN do.

Last edited by khrussva : Fri, Dec-08-17 at 09:17.
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  #34   ^
Old Mon, Dec-11-17, 04:28
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is offline
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Last night I finished a good book that has nothing to do with low carb, but the coach had the answer to sugar addiction.

Dust Bowl Girls: The Boys in the Boat meets A League of Their Own in this true story of a Depression-era championship women’s basketball team.

The coach had nine rules. 2 was "Girls will maintain a proper diet. They will not skip meals. They will drink lots of water.
3 Players will not eat any sweets during basketball season. No bananas."
Other rules on curfew and sleep and exercise...but I was struck by the no sweets rule in 1932. No idea why the banana too...starchy and sweet?

The team accepted "no sweets" as common sense even though they exercised hard about three and half hours a day. In conversation about the poor surviving on cornbread and sorghum syrup, the girls noted that if the coach "ever saw any of his players touching the stuff, he'd suspend them from the team since one of his rules was the strict avoidance of all things sweet." The rare time a girl was sent fudge, or sneaked a teaspoon of sugar for coffee, it was noted in their dairies and so the book. I can only imagine the No Sweets rule was considered standard health advice for athletes, but whatever, a bright line rule they didn’t cross and end of "addiction" or 'sweet tooth' as one called it.

Last edited by JEY100 : Mon, Dec-11-17 at 09:54.
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  #35   ^
Old Mon, Dec-11-17, 07:52
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khrussva khrussva is offline
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Plan: My own - < 30 net carbs
Stats: 440/205/210 Male 5' 11"
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That's a far cry from the belief that 'carbing up' was a good practice for optimal performance in sports. The night before a football game our team would meet up at either a pizza joint or the Spaghetti Warehouse to carb up before the game. That was around 1980 and it was the first time I'd ever heard that loading up on carbs was beneficial. I was an overweight lineman and had, by that time, done some low carb dieting to try to keep my weight down. This carb up tradition sort of screwed that all up for me during football season. I remember thinking at the time that I never appeared to get any benefit from this 'carb up' practice. Even then I considered it just another good reason to go pig out on your favorite foods and hang out with your friends.
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  #36   ^
Old Mon, Dec-11-17, 09:54
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Nancy LC Nancy LC is offline
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They tried that argument with tobacco too. I remember from way way back. Some people get addicted to sex too. Food these days is engineered to light up the pleasure centers to an extreme. And if physical side-effects of addiction is necessary well... how about roller-coastering blood sugar?
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  #37   ^
Old Sat, Dec-16-17, 08:30
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Calianna Calianna is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JEY100
Last night I finished a good book that has nothing to do with low carb, but the coach had the answer to sugar addiction.

Dust Bowl Girls: The Boys in the Boat meets A League of Their Own in this true story of a Depression-era championship women’s basketball team.

The coach had nine rules. 2 was "Girls will maintain a proper diet. They will not skip meals. They will drink lots of water.
3 Players will not eat any sweets during basketball season. No bananas."
Other rules on curfew and sleep and exercise...but I was struck by the no sweets rule in 1932. No idea why the banana too...starchy and sweet?

The team accepted "no sweets" as common sense even though they exercised hard about three and half hours a day. In conversation about the poor surviving on cornbread and sorghum syrup, the girls noted that if the coach "ever saw any of his players touching the stuff, he'd suspend them from the team since one of his rules was the strict avoidance of all things sweet." The rare time a girl was sent fudge, or sneaked a teaspoon of sugar for coffee, it was noted in their dairies and so the book. I can only imagine the No Sweets rule was considered standard health advice for athletes, but whatever, a bright line rule they didn’t cross and end of "addiction" or 'sweet tooth' as one called it.


From what I've read, back before WWII, Germany had done a lot of research on diet, and found that LC was best, for the exact same reasons we on this forum find it to be best. But wherever I read that, it also said that due to the complete horror of the holocaust, any research done by Nazi Germany, no matter how valid, was disdained, thrown out, as being completely unreliable, which helped pave the way for Keyes lipid theory, and the push for more carbs.

Still, our grandparents (I'm in my 60's, so we're talking about at least 50+ years ago) knew that carbs made you gain weight - the diet plates at restaurants usually consisted of a hamburger patty (it wasn't the least bit unusual for ground beef to be 30% fat - 15% fat was the lowest fat version available in the stores), a scoop of full fat cottage cheese, and a tomato slice or two, served on lettuce. It wasn't until the 80's, when the LF craze started that the diet plate was changed to green salad, fat free dressing, or a bunch of carbs, a tiny serving of boneless, skinless chicken breast, and almost no fat.

As far as bananas being off the diet for that team, I'm thinking it might have been part of keeping their body fluids balanced - drink lots of water to counteract excess perspiration from all the training. But since bananas are touted as having a lot of potassium, and extra potassium can cause increased urination, that could have conceivably upset the balance. Also, if any of the girls were obsessed with their weight (which would go along with the rule that they not allowed to skip meals), they could have tried to use bananas to help rid themselves of what they considered to be excess fluid.

But as you said, it could also have been the sugar content of bananas - they may have even found that eliminating such a sweet fruit from the diet helped curb any cravings for other sweets.
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  #38   ^
Old Sat, Dec-16-17, 08:38
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Meme#1 Meme#1 is online now
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I remember the same diet plate of a beef patty cottage cheese and slice of tomato.
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  #39   ^
Old Sat, Dec-16-17, 14:52
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deirdra deirdra is offline
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I think that diet plate with the hamburger patty was for dinner. I remember lettuce with one ring of pineapple and an ice-cream-scoop of cottage cheese on top as a typical lunch offering. The sight of cottage cheese still makes me cringe (which is fine, since I am now off dairy); what a way to wreck the taste of pineapple.
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  #40   ^
Old Sat, Dec-16-17, 15:28
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teaser teaser is offline
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Your ways are not my ways. I always thought the cottage cheese had more to offer than the pineapple.

Mom used to do canned fruit salad, cottage cheese and kolbossa. She thought it was diet food, I thought it was a treat.
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  #41   ^
Old Sun, Dec-17-17, 07:43
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is offline
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The Washington Post weighed in on your debate today. Most of it is a real "well, duh" type of article. Suggests replacing refined sugar with real fruit...sigh. My main question though is where she buys yak meat in Bethesda, MD.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nati...492a_story.html

Quote:
Eating too much sugar can hurt your health, and for some it’s actually addictive

By Marlene Cimons December 16

Who hasn’t been in a relationship we know is bad for us, but one we just can’t quit? For many people, it’s like that with sugar.

Breaking up is hard to do.

“People generally know that sugar isn’t good, but they don’t appreciate how powerfully negative it really is,” says Donald Hensrud, medical director of the Mayo Clinic Healthy Living Program. “If you look at all the things in our diet we can change, pulling away from refined or added sugar will do more good than anything else.”

Nutritional experts don’t suggest that you abandon the sugar that occurs naturally in fresh and frozen fruit. Rather, they’re talking about the stuff that you add to cookie dough or sprinkle onto your morning oatmeal. Sugar has many forms (high-fructose corn syrup, maltose, dextrose, maple syrup, brown sugar, molasses, raw sugar and honey, among others), but it’s still sugar. Manufacturers put it in countless processed foods, including soda, packaged cereals, ice cream, pastries, candy, flavored yogurt, granola bars and dried fruits. It’s also added to such products as salad dressings, ketchup and pasta sauces.

Eating too much sugar contributes to numerous health problems, including weight gain, Type 2 diabetes, dental caries, metabolic syndrome and heart disease, and even indirectly to cancer because of certain cancers’ relationship to obesity. It also can keep you from consuming healthier things. “Kids who are drinking sugar-sweetened beverages aren’t drinking milk,” Hensrud says.

Between 2003 and 2010, Americans consumed about 14 percent of their total daily calories from added sugars, much of it from sugar-sweetened beverages, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. But the 2015-2020 Dietary Guidelines for Americans recommend an intake of added sugar of less than 10 percent of calories. In a 2,000-calorie daily diet, that means less than 200 calories. Ten percent would amount to about 50 grams of sugar, according to Hensrud, who points out that food labels list sugar-per-serving in grams, making it easy to calculate. (With four grams to a teaspoon, that’s about 12 teaspoons.)

While the World Health Organization also recommends a 10 percent limit, it stresses that 5 percent would be even better. That amounts to less than one serving (about eight ounces) of a typical sugary drink, according to WHO. “The lower the number, the better,” Hensrud says.

Over the past 30 years, American adults’ consumption of sugar increased by more than 30 percent, from 228 calories a day to 300, according to a study released last year. “This is equivalent to eating an additional 15 pounds of sugar a year,” Hensrud sayes.

For many years, saturated and trans fats were regarded as the big dietary villains. While some fats are unhealthy, experts now believe it is wiser to focus on cutting back sugar than on paring fats.

“Quality sources of red meat, like grass-fed bison, beef and yak, are a great source of minerals, [conjugated linoleic acid] and protein, which will provide health benefits to our bodies,” says Jessica Murgueytio, a clinical dietitian in Bethesda. Most people do better limiting saturated fat — red meat has high levels of saturated fat — than they do sugar, “primarily because saturated fats don’t have the same addictive quality” as sugar, she adds.

Indeed, when people say they have a sweet tooth, they really are suffering from a “sweet brain” — because that’s where sugar rules. Sugar resembles other abused substances in that “it is reinforcing and can change how you feel,” says former Food and Drug Administration Commissioner David A. Kessler, whose 2009 book “The End of Overeating” describes the science behind Americans’ obsession with sugar. “It’s rewarding. And it’s self-administered.”

Past memory of eating sweet things produces cues that induce the craving for more, he adds. “I had that chocolate chip cookie in the past, and it changed how I feel. I had the momentary bliss from the consumption of sweetness, and that makes me want more,” he says. “Sugar is an effective agent that produces excess calories and stimulates further eating. That’s why the old saying ‘A calorie is a calorie’ is a fallacy.” The source of that calorie matters, he says.

Animal studies have shown that sugar releases opioids and dopamine in the brain, which suggests that sugar dependence is real. “Consuming large amounts of added sugar activates the reward center and makes us want to eat that food again,” Murgueytio says. When this happens, “you can have increased cravings for sugar, feel a lack of control when around sugar, and also increased tolerance for sugar, which causes one to eat more to feel the same impact.”

Artificial sweeteners don’t help, because they can have the same effect. “Artificial sweeteners in small amounts, like one pack in your coffee or tea, are safe and not harmful, but having large amounts, like in diet sodas and sugar-free candies daily, can make sweet cravings a lot worse,” Murgueytio says.

Recent research suggests that a high intake of artificially sweetened products can result in increases in body fat, waist circumference and body mass index.

This is, of course, the best of times and the worst of times to end it with sugar — the best because most people have their biggest weight gain between Thanksgiving and New Year’s (and often can’t get rid of it) and the worst because there are so many holiday temptations.

Save the sweets for special days, like Christmas morning and New Year’s Eve, and avoid them when they matter less, like at 3 p.m. in the office. At parties, don’t stand by the buffet table. Freeze your leftover desserts, or send them home with family or friends. Try to stay out of grocery store food aisles that feature sugary holiday treats, and avoid gourmet and specialty shops whose shelves seem to be overloaded with them this time of year.

As for the remainder of the year, read the labels on your unopened processed foods. If they have high levels of added sugar per serving, several grams, for example, return them to the store. Use the store credit to buy fresh fruit.

If you drink fruit juice, dilute it with unflavored club soda or seltzer. Gradually reduce the amount of sugar you put in your coffee and tea. You’ll get used to it. Make your own salad dressing. If you think you can stop with just one small piece of chocolate, great. But stick to the dark variety, which has less sugar than milk chocolate (and has some health benefits of its own).

Restaurant eating can be tough. Put olive oil and vinegar on your salad, and have grilled chicken or fish — no sauces. Skip the mixed drinks and cocktails and switch to a dry wine. Avoid baked goodies, and have fresh fruit for dessert.

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