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  #1   ^
Old Fri, Dec-01-17, 18:16
dcc0455 dcc0455 is online now
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Posts: 64
 
Plan: LC / IF
Stats: 224/155/155 Male 67
BF:
Progress: 100%
Default Does Ketosis = Fat required

I have been in and out of ketosis several times the last few months while finding my maintenance routine. For no particular reason, yesterday, I wound up having canned tuna with a salad for lunch and frozen pollack with a salad for dinner. I was in ketosis this week, and doing IF, not eating after 6:00pm but yesterday evening I just really wanted to keep eating and could not get satisfied. Thinking about it, I realized I got much less fat from the two fish meals than I have been eating and think that must be related. During weight loss, I had lots of days eating tuna or fish, i.e. low fat, without that reaction, but I was not checking and probably not in ketosis. I'm curious if others have any experience eating low fat while in ketosis. I know fat is satiating, but my question is specific to ketosis.
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  #2   ^
Old Fri, Dec-01-17, 18:49
Grav Grav is offline
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Posts: 498
 
Plan: Banting
Stats: 302/180/180 Male 175cm
BF:
Progress: 100%
Location: New Zealand
Default

I wouldn't say it's low fat that's directly taking you out of ketosis, but the potential converse increase in carbs that may be doing it.

This graph comes to mind, from The Art & Science of Low Carbohydrate Living:



Basically once you start to run low on body fat to lose, you need to increase your percentage of dietary fat to compensate. If you just eat a little more of everything instead, the carb creep may be enough to take you out of ketosis again.

I hit my goal about 11 months ago but have put a few pounds back on since then, which I also put down to eating a little more of everything instead of just eating more fat. Never mind, we live and learn.
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  #3   ^
Old Fri, Dec-01-17, 19:15
dcc0455 dcc0455 is online now
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Posts: 64
 
Plan: LC / IF
Stats: 224/155/155 Male 67
BF:
Progress: 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grav
I wouldn't say it's low fat that's directly taking you out of ketosis, but the potential converse increase in carbs that may be doing it.

Basically once you start to run low on body fat to lose, you need to increase your percentage of dietary fat to compensate.


Thanks Grav. In this case, I ate the usual meat and salad meals but switched out the meat for fish. Same carbs and protein, less fat and calories. Could have been the reduced calories as much as the fat, or maybe it was just coincidence. I do think you are right about increasing fat in maintenance. Since I am already at minimal carbs, about 10g net per day, I guess the question is if I increase fat should I decrease protein to avoid a significant increase in calories.
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  #4   ^
Old Sat, Dec-02-17, 10:19
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is online now
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Posts: 11,446
 
Plan: ketosis/IF
Stats: 190/158/154 Male 67inches
BF:
Progress: 89%
Location: Ontario
Default

You are at a pretty good body weight, low fat fish is pretty low calorie, it's not surprising if that left you hungry. I do find that if say I eat 2000 calories that's higher in protein and lower in fat I'll be hungrier than at a more ketogenic ratio. But hungrier still if I'm just not eating enough.

And I guess that's the answer I'd give, see how much food it takes to satisfy you at some ratio, and then switch it up and see if you're less satisfied with a bit more protein. I could see it going either way, people will argue that protein is satiating, others will argue that low insulin makes for easier satiety, maybe both are true and it's a matter of finding your personal sweet-spot through a bit of experimentation?
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  #5   ^
Old Sat, Dec-02-17, 11:36
GRB5111's Avatar
GRB5111 GRB5111 is offline
Posts: 1,930
 
Plan: Ketogenic (LCHFKD)
Stats: 227/186/185 Male 6' 0"
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Progress: 98%
Location: Herndon, VA
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dcc0455 - how are you determining whether you are "in" or "out" of ketosis? I find that because I'm fat adapted and in ketosis most of the time, it takes more to take me "out" of ketosis, and I get back "in" much faster, within a day in most cases unless I go completely off the LCHF reservation. I'm using a blood meter to measure this, so it's fairly accurate. Depending on how you're measuring ketones, you may be there or get back in more quickly than you realize.
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  #6   ^
Old Sat, Dec-02-17, 18:15
dcc0455 dcc0455 is online now
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Posts: 64
 
Plan: LC / IF
Stats: 224/155/155 Male 67
BF:
Progress: 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by teaser
You are at a pretty good body weight, low fat fish is pretty low calorie, it's not surprising if that left you hungry. I do find that if say I eat 2000 calories that's higher in protein and lower in fat I'll be hungrier than at a more ketogenic ratio. But hungrier still if I'm just not eating enough.

And I guess that's the answer I'd give, see how much food it takes to satisfy you at some ratio, and then switch it up and see if you're less satisfied with a bit more protein. I could see it going either way, people will argue that protein is satiating, others will argue that low insulin makes for easier satiety, maybe both are true and it's a matter of finding your personal sweet-spot through a bit of experimentation?


I had been recording everything I ate, but stopped doing that about a month ago. I may need to resume that until I figure out maintenance.
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  #7   ^
Old Sat, Dec-02-17, 18:31
dcc0455 dcc0455 is online now
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Posts: 64
 
Plan: LC / IF
Stats: 224/155/155 Male 67
BF:
Progress: 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GRB5111
dcc0455 - how are you determining whether you are "in" or "out" of ketosis? I find that because I'm fat adapted and in ketosis most of the time, it takes more to take me "out" of ketosis, and I get back "in" much faster, within a day in most cases unless I go completely off the LCHF reservation. I'm using a blood meter to measure this, so it's fairly accurate. Depending on how you're measuring ketones, you may be there or get back in more quickly than you realize.


During my "record everything" phase, I purchased a MultiSure Glucose and Ketone meter. I also purchased a $30 breathalyzer, which was clearly manufactured for alcohol testing, but is being sold for ketone testing. I also have some SmackFat urine testing strips. I know that sounds completely obsessive, but I was going through an experimenting phase. I did find inconsistencies between them at low readings, but in general, they did correlate. The blood testing is kind of expensive, so I rely on the breath and urine testing, using the blood test only to confirm. I had stopped checking on a regular basis, but do check on occasion. I think that part of my problem is that I may not be truly fat adapted, but rather hovering around the perimeter. I seem to get kicked out really easy. One solution may be to stop experimenting with adding back carbs, and just stick to induction for an extended period to ensure I am fat adapted.
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  #8   ^
Old Sun, Dec-03-17, 12:40
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deirdra deirdra is online now
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Plan: HF/vLC/GF,CF,SF
Stats: 197/136/150 Female 66 inches
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Progress: 130%
Location: Alberta
Default

dcc0455: how well do the ketone results of the MultiSure Glucose and Ketone meter compare to the $30 breathalyzer? Do you have to do some sort of conversion to compare them?
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  #9   ^
Old Sun, Dec-03-17, 15:06
dcc0455 dcc0455 is online now
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Posts: 64
 
Plan: LC / IF
Stats: 224/155/155 Male 67
BF:
Progress: 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by deirdra
dcc0455: how well do the ketone results of the MultiSure Glucose and Ketone meter compare to the $30 breathalyzer? Do you have to do some sort of conversion to compare them?


The MultiSure gives results in mmol/L and the breathalyzer displays in g/l and %BAC. The instructions of the breathalyzer says over .3 g/l is considered ketosis. I have read that an easy way to convert the g/l to mmol/L is to multiply by 10, then divide by 2, or just multiply by 5. I'm not sure how accurate that is but its what I have used. Last week, I took readings using all three methods within 10 minutes. The SmackFat Ketone test strip result was slightly darker than small, so just over 1.5mmol/L. The MultiSure Blood Ketone meter
read 2mmol/L. The breathalyzer had a result of .5g/l or 2.5mmol/L. I have not been checking with all three methods on a regular basis, but those results are typical, at those levels. I have been getting lower readings, with less agreement. For example, I have read a .2g/l on the breathalyzer with a negative stick and .5mmol/L on the MultiSure. My thinking is the breathalyzer may not be as accurate as the blood ketones but it does give you an idea of your ketone level. If it only lasts a few months, it is still way cheaper than checking blood, and still cheaper and more convenient than checking urine, when you consider you can use it as much as you need without any additional expense.
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