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  #1   ^
Old Wed, Jul-26-17, 05:10
cotonpal's Avatar
cotonpal cotonpal is online now
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Plan: very low carb real food
Stats: 245/128/135 Female 62
BF:
Progress: 106%
Location: Vermont
Default Amy Berger finally takes on Protein

The post I have been waiting for for a long time. Amy Berger of Tuit nutrition discusses protein and gluconeogenesis.:

http://www.tuitnutrition.com/2017/0...neogenesis.html

The takeaway - Don't be afraid of too much protein. Excess protein doesn't just turn to sugar. Now to wait for a post from her discussing protein and longevity. She promises one in the future.

Jean
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  #2   ^
Old Wed, Jul-26-17, 06:47
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thud123 thud123 is offline
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Plan: ~25NC/IF
Stats: 342.2/003.4/000 Male 72 inches
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  #3   ^
Old Wed, Jul-26-17, 07:59
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teaser teaser is online now
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Plan: ketosis/IF
Stats: 190/158/154 Male 67inches
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Location: Ontario
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I restrict protein, and it seems to reduce binging considerably. Going to more ketogenic ratios greatly increased the reward value of food, a small piece of chocolate or an ounce of peanuts became rewarding instead of frustrating and likely to trigger a binge. At first it brought me all the way into euphoria, which eventually levelled out. A little disappointed, but it's probably just as well, I wasn't really planning on another manic episode. Just an anecdote--but I doubt I'm entirely unique, I think sometimes you can get a better result when lowering protein. I don't know if it's because some amino acid is in lower supply, or there's a different ratio of this to that amino acid at a lower intake, or because of ketones, or lower insulin, or higher palmitic acid (maybe physiological insulin resistance from increased butter intake prevents hypo-induced binge behaviour caused by a cephalic response to that first bite), or if higher fat drives up absolute intake of this or that essential fatty acid or...

The only study I'm aware of showing that ketones vs. no ketones had no effect on a reduced carb diet compared the Zone to Atkins. Since the Zone is basically a fattening, binge-promoting diet at the present stage of my journey, I tend to discount that study.

In his clinical practice, Dr. Atkins did seem to think that ketosis was worth preserving.

If all I have to go by is many people saying that ketosis doesn't seem to make much difference to their results on a low carb diet, I'm going to have to give equal weight to many people who say that a higher fat, more ketogenic diet does seem to have a positive effect on their results. Equal quality of evidence, equal plausibility. I'm not saying everybody should assume ketones make a difference--just that from where I sit, testing to see whether they seem to make a difference seems worthwhile.

I think I'd be more comfortable if instead of saying that protein is your best friend if you're trying to lose weight with a ketogenic diet, she'd said that protein can be your best friend if you're trying to lose weight with a low carb diet. There's nothing shameful in not targeting ketosis with your low carb diet. Not everybody needs to. But there are people targeting ketosis for various metabolic therapies where absolute levels of ketones might matter, and "protein won't kick you out of ketosis," doesn't work for those people unless you include the modifier, "but it may decrease ketone levels." You can't replace a misunderstanding about the effect of protein on gluconeogenesis with a myth that protein doesn't affect ketosis. I realize Amy very specifically doesn't do this, it's just a meme I see all over the place that protein won't "knock you out of ketosis." Protein is antiketogenic, even the amounts we need to maintain our lean mass are antiketogenic, there's no free lunch, although of course we do need that lean mass.
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  #4   ^
Old Wed, Jul-26-17, 09:36
Bonnie OFS Bonnie OFS is offline
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Plan: Dr. Bernstein
Stats: 188/160/135 Female 5 ft 4 inches
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teaser
Just an anecdote--but I doubt I'm entirely unique, I think sometimes you can get a better result when lowering protein.


For diabetics, it's often. I was having trouble lowering my bg until I stopped eating so much protein. I rationalized the excess by saying to myself - no carbs! It's OK! But it wasn't.

At Reversing Diabetes, the mantra is low carb, medium protein, high fat.
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  #5   ^
Old Fri, Jul-28-17, 15:19
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JEY100 JEY100 is online now
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Plan: IF Fung/LC Westman/Primal
Stats: 222/171/169 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/25.3%/24%
Progress: 96%
Location: NC
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From a FB discussion, RD Dikeman posted this quote from Dr Richard Bernstein. Obviously it has worked for him for many years...and he is T1 diabetic.

"My plan is LCHP not LCHF. As far as fat, I'm not telling people to go out and buy some fat and eat a meal of it. Fat comes along with the protein"
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  #6   ^
Old Fri, Jul-28-17, 17:41
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mike_d mike_d is offline
Grease is the word!
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Plan: PSMF/IF
Stats: 236/174/175 Male 72 inches
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Progress: 102%
Location: Alamo city, Texas
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Think protein shakes on an empty stomach make me a bit giddy, euphoric or even manic. So can eating a rich meal after fasting most of a day, not sure why. BP goes up as well so it may be adrenaline related. Also a sweet taste develops in the mouth at night, if I have a protein shake with dinner like kefir does sometimes too.

Last edited by mike_d : Fri, Jul-28-17 at 17:51.
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  #7   ^
Old Fri, Jul-28-17, 17:47
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cotonpal cotonpal is online now
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Plan: very low carb real food
Stats: 245/128/135 Female 62
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Progress: 106%
Location: Vermont
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JEY100
From a FB discussion, RD Dikeman posted this quote from Dr Richard Bernstein. Obviously it has worked for him for many years...and he is T1 diabetic.

"My plan is LCHP not LCHF. As far as fat, I'm not telling people to go out and buy some fat and eat a meal of it. Fat comes along with the protein"


I was just thinking today how successful I was following Dr Bernstein's plan initially, 3 meals a day, 6-12-12 carbs per meal, no other stressing about macros. He said many years ago that if you want to lose weight cut protein and if you want to gain weight increase protein. Sometimes I think we just make it too complicated. Dr Berstein seems to be doing quite well following his own advice.

Jean
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  #8   ^
Old Sat, Jul-29-17, 06:20
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is online now
To Good Health!
Posts: 9,557
 
Plan: IF Fung/LC Westman/Primal
Stats: 222/171/169 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/25.3%/24%
Progress: 96%
Location: NC
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mike_d
Think protein shakes on an empty stomach make me a bit giddy, euphoric or even manic. So can eating a rich meal after fasting most of a day, not sure why. BP goes up as well so it may be adrenaline related. Also a sweet taste develops in the mouth at night, if I have a protein shake with dinner like kefir does sometimes too.

Do you follow Dr Ted Naiman on FB or Twitter? He recently had a range of protein foods to use when plateau and still needed to lose weight, using a protein to non-protein energy ratio. First group of foods was the PSMF with whey protein (though he doesn't actually recommend it) then all real foods for fat loss, up to maintenance where the fats come back. July 20.
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  #9   ^
Old Sat, Jul-29-17, 12:28
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deirdra deirdra is offline
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Plan: HF/vLC/GF,CF,SF
Stats: 197/136/150 Female 66 inches
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Progress: 130%
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Excess protein dehydrates me and lightens my wallet more than replacing that excess protein with a bit more fat (if I am hungry).

Back when I was following Protein Power and getting my (81g/day) adequate protein, Mike Eades blogged about a Scandinavian study where women ate 100g/day. I tried it and I did, but what I was losing was water weight. I was always thirsty and even my eyeballs felt parched despite drinking an extra liter or two of water each day.

For me, adequate protein is enough to keep my nails and hair strong. During my decades of RDA and vegetarian eating (46g/day protein) I had very flexible nails that easily chipped or split into layers. They got strong when I conscientiously increased to 80g. A few months back I tried lowering protein following Rosedale's recommendation to 50g, which was primarily animal protein, not vegetable as in my vegetarian days. But my nails got weaker quickly. So I upped it and my nails and hair are strong again on 60g/day. Since I IF, I aim for at least 45g on fasting days and eat more on non-fasting days, so that over a week, my protein averages out to 60-70g/day and I feel good and rarely parched.
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  #10   ^
Old Sat, Jul-29-17, 13:06
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JLx JLx is offline
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Plan: IF
Stats: 210/204/165 Female 66
BF:High wt, 276, 255
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Location: Michigan U.P., USA
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Her post was interesting, but I still feel like I have no idea how much protein to eat.

Dr. Fung says, "moderate" protein these days. Well, how much is that? I don't like figuring out macros.
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  #11   ^
Old Sat, Jul-29-17, 14:21
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honeypie honeypie is offline
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Plan: Cycling VLC with LC
Stats: -/-/134 Female 5'10
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Default

Great thread, thank you! And a quick question:
Quote:
"My plan is LCHP not LCHF. As far as fat, I'm not telling people to go out and buy some fat and eat a meal of it. Fat comes along with the protein"
vs.
Quote:
I was just thinking today how successful I was following Dr Bernstein's plan initially....He said many years ago that if you want to lose weight cut protein and if you want to gain weight increase protein
These quotes both make sense to me in different contexts, so my assumption is that Dr. Bernstein also made each quote in the wider context of addressing, or just responding, to entirely different overall discussions(?). I think that is reasonably likely, and that is also why both statements still hold 100% true.
Quote:
Do you follow Dr Ted Naiman on FB or Twitter? He recently had a range of protein foods to use when plateau and still needed to lose weight, using a protein to non-protein energy ratio. First group of foods was the PSMF with whey protein (though he doesn't actually recommend it) then all real foods for fat loss, up to maintenance where the fats come back. July 20.
I also really appreciate this quote/suggestion. ^^^

I think sometimes the wider LC community, such as on the boards here, tends to get a wind of a particular argument, or train of thought, to not even imply any negative connotations with the word argument... and then everyone, kind of as a collective whole, just goes with it.

I really appreciate a more reasoned discussion on this subject and I am also appreciating different experiences, anecdotes, and points of view being shared - because Dr. Fung has been so popular for so long, that there is a very large collective shift towards trying to limit protein to (comparatively) very low levels.

Rarely do I see anyone talking about eating protein that would adhere more to Phinney and Volek recommended levels, and NEVER do I see anyone apart from Janet, with a consistent voice on this site being an active proponent of very actively limiting fat intake during weight loss.

These subjects of interest to me right now, and very timely, because after only losing about 23 lbs in 3 months on strict induction, (of which a third of that total loss was in the first few days)... I have recently REALLY upped my protein and limited my fat consumption, and I am feeling better than I have in YEARS.

I am also losing, like I have never lost before. 6 lbs the week before, followed by 5 lbs this week. I mean, this is effortless, and unheard of for me. Also they are absolutely huge loss numbers, considering I have been completely fat adapted for almost 4 months.

Anyway, I just wanted to share my positive experiences on this subject also. I have also in the past historically (years ago) also done similarly well and felt similarly GREAT, when I ate protein to the point of protein satiety to me, and when I did not try to conversely, eat to hit the numbers. And then too, I felt best on at least 125g protein.

FWIW, now; since the last few weeks that I am having these amazing results, I aim for a minimum of 150g per day. If I go over, I don't sweat it.

But I am actively not permitting myself to go under that number, and it's like the difference between night and day for me. I am 5ft 11, btw.

Thanks again for starting this very interesting thread, because I appreciate the links and recommendations, and I will also be hugely interested to see where else this thread goes.
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  #12   ^
Old Sat, Jul-29-17, 14:55
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WereBear WereBear is offline
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Plan: Epi-Paleo/IF
Stats: 220/161/150 Female 67
BF:
Progress: 84%
Location: USA
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Don't know if anyone can listen to me about protein, since I am on therapeutic levels of niacin (which is an amino acid) and it has done wonders for my appetite, energy, and anxiety issues.

This is in addition to a fairly high protein level -- if I don't eat enough MEAT/FISH I am peckish until I do.

Off to read the post...
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  #13   ^
Old Sat, Jul-29-17, 20:22
JLx's Avatar
JLx JLx is offline
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Posts: 1,817
 
Plan: IF
Stats: 210/204/165 Female 66
BF:High wt, 276, 255
Progress: 13%
Location: Michigan U.P., USA
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I was watching Dr. Ted Naiman's YouTube on Insulin Resistance today and someone make a joke in reference to his twitter account in the comments, so I went to it.

Some interesting things on there pertinent to this discussion. These graphics may be of interest. I don't know how to post them here directly - maybe they're too big anyway. So I hope these links work:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DDGEyEbUwAAGz3B.jpg Target protein, restrict non-fiber carbs.

Protein to non protein energy ratio https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DFKRHYDVoAA5RjE.jpg

http://burnfatnotsugar.com/rail/ Protein NonProtein Energy Ratio
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  #14   ^
Old Sat, Jul-29-17, 20:31
cotonpal's Avatar
cotonpal cotonpal is online now
Posts: 3,362
 
Plan: very low carb real food
Stats: 245/128/135 Female 62
BF:
Progress: 106%
Location: Vermont
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When it comes to protein the advice is all over the place. I've concluded that I just have to go with what works for me. Usually I have somewhere between 70-90 grams, sometimes higher sometimes lower but I get too hungry if I go too low. When the "experts" are all over the place with their recommendations you have to figure that no one really knows for sure.

Jean
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  #15   ^
Old Sat, Jul-29-17, 20:52
mike_d's Avatar
mike_d mike_d is offline
Grease is the word!
Posts: 8,073
 
Plan: PSMF/IF
Stats: 236/174/175 Male 72 inches
BF:disappearing!
Progress: 102%
Location: Alamo city, Texas
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JLx
Her post was interesting, but I still feel like I have no idea how much protein to eat.

Dr. Fung says, "moderate" protein these days. Well, how much is that? I don't like figuring out macros.
There is a calculator for that. A rule of thumb is: if carbs go down make up with protein. I aim for 88g / day -- more and I feel a little dried out.

http://www.phlaunt.com/lowcarb/19058429.php

Also the source seems to have more impact, especially as you age. I swear by Body Fortress Whey Protein powder shakes made with 50% or less cream. Or just 1/4 - 1/2 cup powder whipped with very cold cream to make like an chocolate ice cream.

Last edited by mike_d : Sat, Jul-29-17 at 20:59.
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