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  #1   ^
Old Sun, May-21-17, 09:21
NoBudgPudg's Avatar
NoBudgPudg NoBudgPudg is offline
New Member
Posts: 7
 
Plan: Keto
Stats: 201/200/140 Female 5'2"
BF:
Progress:
Default Halp! Nearly 60 and Type 2...can't even lose water weight!

Hello, all! I have been very-low-carbing (0-20 grams per day) for 4.5 weeks now. I had a diagnosis on April 18 of 5 times the normal liver enzymes (fatty liver) and a blood sugar A1C of 235...clearly rampant T2. In abject fear, I began low-carbing that very day. I am still very fearful of what I have done to myself with my high-sugar diet, and you can bet that I have not slipped up once in all that time.

Yet still, having gone into ketosis about 3 days into my efforts, and testing daily with ketostix (still purple!), my blood sugar is testing, at its lowest, at 170. I lost an initial 3 lbs, pretty sure was water weight, and now that is back on. I cannot lose even WATER WEIGHT.

I manage a warehouse, and assist with unloading freight trucks 2-3 times a week. I do not ever sit at work. I walk 12k to 15k steps a day, 5 days a week. For a nearly-60 yr old, I get quite a bit of exercise, and yet I have increased even that, to an aerobic dance session after work 5 days a week (20 mins--I am working on increasing that slowly) and 2-mile walks both weekend days.

Still. Not even an ounce of loss. My thyroid function has been tested as normal. My kidneys--normal. My water intake--3 to 4 liters a day. I take 1 500-mg Metformin (it's doing nothing but giving me extreme nausea). I take 750-1000 mg magnesium daily, 400 mcg Vitamin D, 1 baby aspirin, and Losartan with a diuretic for high blood pressure.

My question--where in heck is all the blood sugar even coming from, when I am not eating it? Why, with increased exercise, am I not using it up? What do I do next?? I'm frustrated but just cannot at present bump up my exercise routines any higher!

As I said, halp!
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  #2   ^
Old Sun, May-21-17, 09:30
Mama Sebo's Avatar
Mama Sebo Mama Sebo is offline
Posts: 4,456
 
Plan: lc, highish fat,
Stats: 224/150.5/124 Female 64 inches
BF:44%/29%/20%
Progress: 74%
Location: Gaborone, Botswana
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Hi No, there are a variety of reasons that your fasting blood sugar might seem illogical, not least of which is the fact that your liver releases fat/sugar during the night fast. Read read read about the process of fat and sugar storage and release. You could check out Dr Bernstein's Diabetes thread in the forum section, and perhaps someone else will jump in (Janet help!) with good links.
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  #3   ^
Old Sun, May-21-17, 11:40
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is offline
To Good Health!
Posts: 9,318
 
Plan: IF Fung/LC Westman/Primal
Stats: 222/171/169 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/25.3%/24%
Progress: 96%
Location: NC
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Welcome NoBudg,

MamaSebo seems to think I can come up with some magic answer yet it sounds like you have worked very hard for a month keeping solidly VLC. As she mentioned start by reading back through posts in the Diabetes forumÖmaybe something you read there will strike you as missing from your current routine? http://forum.lowcarber.org/forumdisplay.php?f=45

Sometime when the plan reads Keto I wonder if the concept about the diet was taken from the internet and the member is stuffing themselves with fat. But you have read Atkins and Taubes (assume that was Why We Get Fat?) which has a very good Ketogenic Diet in the back with clear instructions that dairy fats like cream, mayo, cheese, etc are limited to small amounts. Donít Force the Fat: https://lowcarbrn.wordpress.com/201...-force-the-fat/ and a newer clip from an Adapt video with Dr. Westman. We donít count calories but calories do count: https://www.instagram.com/p/BTVP7VNBmFH/

The exercise that is part of your daily routine is great, but there is no need to add more dance classes thinking it will result in weight loss. https://intensivedietarymanagement....gy-expenditure/ That may actually be counter-productive. Donít forget improving sleep and reducing stress to support your efforts to reduce BG.

The diabetes forum has info about many doctors working to reverse diabetes with VLC diets, but the one with an added twist to that plan is Dr. Jason Fung. With your elevated Liver enzymes and high blood sugars, I would encourage you to learn all about the benefits of adding Intermittent Fasting to your routine. In addition to the thread started back in 2014 about him, http://forum.lowcarber.org/showthread.php?t=472377 the excellent DietDoctor website has many courses and presentations by him. https://www.dietdoctor.com/?s=Jason+Fung

Relevant for you is a recent article on the Fatty Pancreas: https://www.dietdoctor.com/fatty-pa...type-2-diabetes and those high liver markers indicates strong Insulin Resistance. https://www.dietdoctor.com/insulin-fatty-liver-disease Assuming everything else is fine, consider your meal timing. Try to extend the time between meals, no snacking. Give your pancreas periods of rest and reduce some of the stored energy. I have found even after doing Intermittent Fasting just naturally as part of Dr. Westman's clinic diet, Dr. Fung's protocols were very helpful in reducing my BG levels.

Hope this helps you and maybe gives you some new resources to consider.
And time...give it time. All the best,
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  #4   ^
Old Sun, May-21-17, 14:02
Merpig's Avatar
Merpig Merpig is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 6,090
 
Plan: IF/Fung IDM/Potato Hack?
Stats: 375/274.0/175 Female 66 inches
BF:
Progress: 51%
Location: NE Florida
Default

Janet always has good answers. I can only think of a few comments.
1) How much protein are you eating in a day? Can you give us an idea of what your daily menu looks like? High amounts of protein can definitely keep your blood sugar high.

2) Counter intuitive, but you may be getting *too much* exercise. It sounds like you have plenty just at work. I had a friend who broke a long stall by cutting way back on her daily exercise.

So please, give us some samples of what your daily eating looks like, and as Janet said - consider the timing of your meals, and definitely investigate Dr. Fung. I'm a huge Fung fangirl. Fasting seems to be helping me.
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  #5   ^
Old Sun, May-21-17, 20:20
NoBudgPudg's Avatar
NoBudgPudg NoBudgPudg is offline
New Member
Posts: 7
 
Plan: Keto
Stats: 201/200/140 Female 5'2"
BF:
Progress:
Default

My daily diet includes a sausage patty and two-egg scramble in grass-fed butter (I am a CAREFUL shopper for my foods!). I make pecans roasted in butter, and have a handful of those around noon (pecans have 1 net carb in 1 ounce). Lunch at 2 is either a burger patty on lettuce and tomato, or a half avocado with salad shrimp, or a chicken/veggie bowl. Dinner is often a repeat of one of the lunch items, as I don't often finish them at lunch. A rare evening treat-I've made it maybe 4 times in the last month-is a raspberry/heavy whip cream/coconut cream smoothie. I don't scrimp on saturated fat, and cook in coconut, olive or avocado oil all the time.

Intermittent fasting is my next step, I guess. CANNOT forego meals during work, as my physical demands are too great for the mental demands of fasting. So that means skipping dinner. Which is when I'm to take my Metformin, so that I sleep through most of those side effects. Metformin must be taken with a meal, which might mean at breakfast, then...so the nausea should be in full force by dinnertime. Maybe that will be an assist? I might add, my diabetic doc doesn't believe ANY dietary change will make a difference in my Type 2, and often reiterates that if I don't get this weight off, I'm doomed to insulin injections in my future, regardless of how I eat. I live in a one-horse town, folks, and our hospital has ONE diabetes clinic. I have no other choices for docs, at least not locally. That lack of support alone has been really depressing!
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  #6   ^
Old Sun, May-21-17, 20:53
Nancy LC's Avatar
Nancy LC Nancy LC is online now
Experimenter
Posts: 45,191
 
Plan: Paleo 99.5%
Stats: 210/170/160 Female 67.5"
BF:
Progress: 80%
Location: San Diego, CA
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Even in a big town most diabetes doctors are pretty clueless about diet to treat diabetes.
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  #7   ^
Old Sun, May-21-17, 21:13
NoBudgPudg's Avatar
NoBudgPudg NoBudgPudg is offline
New Member
Posts: 7
 
Plan: Keto
Stats: 201/200/140 Female 5'2"
BF:
Progress:
Default

I should also mention that the smoothie contains 3/4 cup of frozen raspberries or strawberries, about 6 grams of carb. Total amount of smoothie is about a cup and a half. 12 oz AT MOST. And 4 times in 32 days doesn't seem excessive to me. I don't gorge on dairy.

My leptin seems horrendously out of whack, too, or at least, I don't get hunger signals like I used to, at all. I know I'm hungry when nausea overtakes me, or I feel irritable. No pangs. I would love to get those signals back.
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  #8   ^
Old Sun, May-21-17, 22:05
Bonnie OFS Bonnie OFS is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 1,987
 
Plan: Dr. Bernstein
Stats: 188/160/135 Female 5 ft 4 inches
BF:
Progress: 53%
Location: NE WA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NoBudgPudg
Intermittent fasting is my next step, I guess. CANNOT forego meals during work, as my physical demands are too great for the mental demands of fasting. So that means skipping dinner. Which is when I'm to take my Metformin, so that I sleep through most of those side effects.


I'm also a t2 diabetic & had a difficult time getting both my weight & bg down. I finally found out about IF & started that a while back. As long as I stick to my 2 meals - breakfast & lunch - I do great. If I eat even a snack in the evening it throws me off. If I eat a full meal it can take up to a week to get my bg back down. I'm hoping that over time I might be able to eat in the evening without a problem.

I couldn't take Metformin because of different & very unpleasant side affects. Perhaps the extended release might work better for you?

You might want to get Dr. Bernstein's book Diabetes Solution. He explains diabetes so well even I could understand it. Tho I'll admit I had to read it more than once.

Forgot to say - I'm 64. I think it's more difficult for us as we get older.
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  #9   ^
Old Mon, May-22-17, 04:36
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is offline
To Good Health!
Posts: 9,318
 
Plan: IF Fung/LC Westman/Primal
Stats: 222/171/169 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/25.3%/24%
Progress: 96%
Location: NC
Default

I can't imagine having good hunger signals if you are nauseous from the Metformin. Bonnie has a good suggestion.

I hate to say this because your menu sounds like a very good LC plan and you certainly don't overeat, but you may not actually be "Keto" on some days. When someone is very insulin resistant, not only should you stay under 20g Total Carbs, but maybe even lower. That really doesn't leave room for fruit or nuts, rare treat that it is for you. Since you asked for suggestions, one would be to try the Duke Lifestyle diet, also used at HealClinic. A version is here: http://www.kostdoktorn.se/wp-conten...starch_diet.pdf. (minor print error, the cream and mayo limits should actually be 2T not 4T) No nuts, no fruit.

At the same time test the foods you do eat for what Dr Davis calls "The No-Change Rule". Take your baseline BG before eating, in 30-60 minutes after, there should be no change. Maybe try adding Apple Cider Vinegar before meals? http://www.tuitnutrition.com/2014/1...of-vinegar.html
Along those lines, Dr Davis also considers restoring "bowel flora" aka gut bugs important to improving IR. Add some prebiotic fibers and probiotics by supplements, or fermented vegetables. http://www.wheatbellyblog.com/2015/...ed-bowel-flora/ And as tough as it is from how you described your job, manage stress and get enough sleep.

And I know you won't believe me about this, but you can forego meals while working. If approached slowly and with support, IF is not a mental or physical challenge. Some LC doctors now advise Intermittent Fasting to help reduce insulin levels for T2. https://www.dietdoctor.com/perfect-...tes-weight-loss

It takes most everyone some time to get use to fasting, maybe slowly pushing off breakfast by an hour or adding CO and butter to coffee. I know I am really in ketosis, when I have an extra boost of energy, buzz around the house, even have a hard time sleeping because I am too revved up. As weird as it seems, you do not get weak and unable to meet physical demands, but have Extra energy. One of many great explanations about how this happens by Dr Fung: https://intensivedietarymanagement....ise-fasting-23/

Again suggest reading all the links in my previous post, and then ease into it. I started a more structured IF three years ago now and it took me a long time to accept all its benefits for lowering BG and other therapeutic uses. I seek its autophagy benefits for the potential of cancer recurrence prevention. You have to hear Dr Fung say this word in his intro video, and you may think fasting is Crazzzzzy, but done correctly, it makes more sense than treating diabetes by telling patients to eat six meals a day!

Last edited by JEY100 : Mon, May-22-17 at 06:57.
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  #10   ^
Old Mon, May-22-17, 05:15
cotonpal's Avatar
cotonpal cotonpal is online now
Posts: 2,991
 
Plan: very low carb real food
Stats: 245/122/135 Female 62
BF:
Progress: 112%
Location: Vermont
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Unfortunately our bodies are stern task masters and they demand what they demand. Even though you are working hard at this it seems you haven't yet done enough. The question then becomes "what next?" Lowering carbs even further would be my first step, counting total carb not net carbs and keeping them below 20 gms of total carbs a day. And not allowing yourself any treats, not one. We don't get to bargain with our bodies. If your body is demanding further more scrupulous diligence then that is what you have to give it. Then there is intermittent fasting as others have said. Like Bonny I eat 2 meals a day, breakfast and lunch.

You are heading in the right direction so don't give up just keep tightening up your diet. Most of us here have to figure all this out without help of doctors or diabetes educators for they are not a help but a downright hindrance. The good news is that your doctor is wrong about food and diabetes so you don't have to listen to him. Once you figure out the diet your bg's will drop before you lose the weight. You really are heading in the right direction so remain as patient as possible and keep adjusting until you figure out what works for you.

Jean
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  #11   ^
Old Mon, May-22-17, 22:55
NoBudgPudg's Avatar
NoBudgPudg NoBudgPudg is offline
New Member
Posts: 7
 
Plan: Keto
Stats: 201/200/140 Female 5'2"
BF:
Progress:
Default

I understand that after awhile, you get used to not eating with IF, and may be able to go without eating at all before a big exercise session, as the unloading of a freight truck is for me. But NOW, I can't starve my way through that much exercise without getting VERY nauseous (I've had to run and gag into a trash can before--most embarrassing at work!) I find I must eat lunch before a truck, and that is that. I DO take extended release Metformin. I just have a horrid time with them at any dose, but my diabetes doc INSISTS they are the best med out there for Type 2, and I'm simply not giving it the old college try.

I started IF today, 16:8, with 2 meals, a late breakfast at 11 am, and a late lunch at 4:30 pm. Nothing since, and so far, so good. I could have had a nibble later, like at 6:45, but I was not hungry, so no need to eat. Even now, at nearly 11 pm, I'm not hungry. But waiting until 11 am will be a good test!

So even if you pee very purple on the stix, you COULD be out of ketosis? I didn't know that. Still, I don't see how even eating veggies or nuts with a good oil-based dressing could make my blood sugar skyrocket to 250. And basically stay around there forever, dropping back to 170 only after I am hungry again. I had a better consistent blood sugar reading back when I was taking 1000 mg Metformin and sticking to a low-cal (yes, I ate bread!) diet. I managed to hover around 140 on my A1C for 8 months.
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  #12   ^
Old Mon, May-22-17, 23:07
NoBudgPudg's Avatar
NoBudgPudg NoBudgPudg is offline
New Member
Posts: 7
 
Plan: Keto
Stats: 201/200/140 Female 5'2"
BF:
Progress:
Default

How on earth do any of you take Apple Cider Vinegar? I cannot stomach the stuff. Even exceptionally diluted, I struggle to keep it down. Should I use it as part of a dressing? I have a full bottle, heard that it was actually better to take it in that form as opposed to pills, but I can't do it. I retch and gag and spit it up again. How are you managing?
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  #13   ^
Old Tue, May-23-17, 04:02
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is offline
To Good Health!
Posts: 9,318
 
Plan: IF Fung/LC Westman/Primal
Stats: 222/171/169 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/25.3%/24%
Progress: 96%
Location: NC
Default

It must be frustrating to have a diabetes doctor who does not believe that ANY dietary change will make a difference in diabetes? A doctor has to be completely ignorant of the science and the history of diabetes treatment to say that. Or is that view to enhance the bottom line for the only diabetes clinic in town? If he would read it, here's a paper from 26 diabetes researchers why a low carb diet should be the FIRST line of treatment. (As it was before insulin was discovered ) http://www.nutritionjrnl.com/articl...0332-3/fulltext
Also http://www.ajmc.com/contributor/sar...ent-to-reversal

And here's a terrific presentation by Dr Westman that starts with how LCHF was used to treat diabetes years ago and why it should still be first line treatment..this 30 minute video is available without signing up for membership (also free for a month). https://www.dietdoctor.com/lchf-dia...dr-eric-westman

Have you considered asking other GP's in town if they would support your efforts to improve BG through nutrition? This way: https://www.dietdoctor.com/diabetes
Maybe a younger doctor not embedded with the pharma solution? You do not require a hospital with a diabetes clinic if a GP will work with you. If Metformin of all forms is making you that ill they are NOT the best for you and seems time for different solutions. Are you in the US? ...there are Low Carb doctors in many states, and often you can see them once in person and then manage the diet and meds by phone. Is that HbA1c number in mmol/mol or a blood sugar equivalent? US is normally quoted in % so I assumed the later.

This is a 700 club story about treating diabetes with food http://www1.cbn.com/cbnnews/healths...d-Cure-Diabetes
Ignoring Pat Robertson winging off about corn subsidies (though I completely agree ) the video shows Dr Westman and two women I know IRL who continue to manage their BG with a LC diet. They have not reached a "normal" BMI but no longer have diabetes and take no meds either. You are NOT diabetic because you are overweight, but because you are insulin resistant. See Point 3 in the first paper linked above. Again, Dr Fung has many articles explaining this a few different ways. And Sarah Hallberg's 18 minute TEDTalk is good too.

You sound like me complaining about ACV at the start of the Fung thread in 2014 Gag, gag. I only put 1 or 2 T in a glass of ice water or carbonated water and then cheated ... Added a flavored sweetener (like SF Mio type water enhancers).
Like fasting, I finally got use to it but still have no idea how much good it does?

You can do fasting any way that fits your schedule. A big sausage and egg breakfast, followed within 4-8 hours by a burger and salad? Then the rest of the day drink coffee, tea, and broth. Can even add some butter and coconut oil to them (only as needed) Drink carbonated water. Whatever fits your work schedule. There are more tips on the first page of The Obesity Code thread with web archives back to original instructions. If that schedule doesn't work for you, then try another until you are comfortable with some period of time to release stored fat. You should not be "starving", if you are, then eat. IF is completely flexible as to length of eating window, number of days per week.

Last edited by JEY100 : Tue, May-23-17 at 10:10.
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  #14   ^
Old Tue, May-23-17, 09:15
Merpig's Avatar
Merpig Merpig is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 6,090
 
Plan: IF/Fung IDM/Potato Hack?
Stats: 375/274.0/175 Female 66 inches
BF:
Progress: 51%
Location: NE Florida
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I take ACV by putting 1-2 tbsp in a glass with half cup of water, 1 tsp. Ceylon cinnamon, and 1 tsp vanilla or 1/2 tsp pure almond extract. Then whirr up in my Magic Bullet to blend in the cinnamon and then chug it down. Still not super yummy but manageable, and Ceylon cinnamon is supposed to be good for blood sugar also.
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  #15   ^
Old Tue, May-23-17, 10:13
NoBudgPudg's Avatar
NoBudgPudg NoBudgPudg is offline
New Member
Posts: 7
 
Plan: Keto
Stats: 201/200/140 Female 5'2"
BF:
Progress:
Default

My general doc (a lady) does SORT OF support my diet...she believes in the Glycemic Index, which is nothing but TROUBLE for me. But she wants me to see this diabetic specialist, and so I have. All he will keep saying is, lose weight (and I can hear the silent "you fat slob!" he ISN'T saying out loud every time he tells me to lose weight), and he doesn't care WHICH diet I use to do it, just DO IT. When I refused to PAY to meet with his staff nutritionist, because she is a supporter of the AMA food pyramid, he said, "Whatever."

So easy for the thin to say "lose weight", isn't it?
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