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  #1   ^
Old Thu, Apr-20-17, 06:55
zmktwzrd zmktwzrd is offline
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Plan: Ketogenic
Stats: 290/192/175 Male 5'11
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Location: Central PA
Unhappy Must we send our DNA to "fat adaption" school?

The term “Fat Adapted” has never gelled with me. It is like saying we are “oxygen-adapted.” With enough training could we become water adapted like fish?

Must we “teach” our bodies over a period of weeks to properly burn fat? Once we are out of glucose, shouldn’t we burn fat without the need for proper training? Is it possible that being fat adapted is more of a psychological state rather than a physiological state?

If someone deeply understands the physiological mechanics behind the theory of keto-adaption, I would love to better understand it. Are we saying that if I have zero glucose reserves that I will burn fat better if I am fat adapted compared to having zero glucose reserves without the proper physiological “fat burning cellular education”?

Last edited by zmktwzrd : Thu, Apr-20-17 at 08:16.
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  #2   ^
Old Thu, Apr-20-17, 07:42
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is online now
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Plan: ketosis/IF
Stats: 190/158/154 Male 67inches
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Pyruvate dehydrogenase activity (the process necessary for terminal oxidation of glucose by mitochondria) is downregulated during carbohydrate restriction, this spares carbon for gluconeogenesis and for necessary 3 carbon inputs towards the krebs cycle. Which means that acetyl-CoA will preferentially come from fat or ketones vs. glucose, if glucose is a source for acetyl-CoA, then there's a net carbon loss for potential glucose resynthesis. Competition by glucose is a major determinant of fatty acid oxidation, as you suggest.

I think the term "fat adapted" originates with Steve Phinney, what he was talking about was a decrease in the ability to do sort of medium intensity endurance exercise, the sort of exertion you might be capable of sustaining for a couple of hours, that came with switching to a ketogenic diet. After six weeks or so in his studies, that ability returned to normal.

Fat adaptation and keto adaptation get thrown around a lot, I think very often not very well defined. If you look at starvation studies as possibly an accelerated model of fat adaptation, that might or might not be valid, but let's do it anyways. Ketone production reaches its peak at 3 days, but blood ketone levels don't reach a peak until ten days or so. Initially, ketones will provide about 25 percent of muscle's energy needs, but by day ten, almost none--that's why blood ketones continue to go up even though ketone production plateaus early on. Muscle burns less ketones, gets more of its energy from fat as time goes by. I've heard Phinney talk about this with nutritional ketosis as well, early on muscle uses ketones, later it's spared for the brain. So once glucose is gone, ketones are still there to compete with fat for oxidation by muscle, further adaptations are necessary for muscle to spare ketones, and fat adaptation is as much an adaptation away from oxidation of glucose and ketones as it is an adapatation towards oxidation of fat. Of course by definition you're still burning fat--the original use of "fat adapted" was more specific to exercise tolerance.

Looked at that way, ketoadaptation--I usually see this defined as the adaptation of the brain to ketones as a primary fuel--is really the result of the rest of the body being reticent enough towards ketone oxidation to spare it for the brain.
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  #3   ^
Old Thu, Apr-20-17, 10:15
GRB5111's Avatar
GRB5111 GRB5111 is offline
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Plan: Ketogenic (LCHFKD)
Stats: 227/186/185 Male 6' 0"
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Location: Herndon, VA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teaser
Looked at that way, ketoadaptation--I usually see this defined as the adaptation of the brain to ketones as a primary fuel--is really the result of the rest of the body being reticent enough towards ketone oxidation to spare it for the brain.

The question posed regarding "Fat burning cellular education" at a physiological level is an interesting one. The explanation from teaser is an excellent summary from a physiological perspective. From my N=1 experiences, I know that the first time I became what I call "fat adapted" was a very different experience than subsequent forays in and out of the state where my body uses fat as its primary fuel. Since I like to stay in fat burning mode most of the time, but occasionally transition to glucose as primary fuel, I find it much faster and easier, physically and mentally, to transition back to fat burning than my first experience when I purposely transitioned to fat primary. It may be that my metabolism now has experience making this transition. It also may be that since I'm never that far away from fat primary, that it's a much easier transition. It is likely a combination of the two where my metabolism is wired and the pathways exist to enable the transition, and I'm never that far into glucose primary that enables the ease of moving back to fat primary.
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  #4   ^
Old Thu, Apr-20-17, 13:27
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WereBear WereBear is offline
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Plan: Epi-Paleo/IF
Stats: 220/161/150 Female 67
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It implies a switching of gears. Doesn't matter how long I breathe water (or how short) there isn't any mechanism to distill out the oxygen (since we are ALL oxygen breathers.)
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  #5   ^
Old Thu, Apr-20-17, 13:55
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thud123 thud123 is offline
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Plan: ~25NC/IF
Stats: 342.2/003.4/000 Male 72 inches
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"Must we send our DNA to "fat adaption" school?" - We Must!

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  #6   ^
Old Sat, Apr-22-17, 06:20
M Levac M Levac is offline
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Plan: VLC, mostly meat
Stats: 202/200/165 Male 5' 7"
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I never thought about it too deeply, but now that I think about it a little bit more deeply, but still not that deep anyways, the process we're talking about doesn't really sound like an adaptation so much. Instead, I prefer to see it as declogging the carburator.

Insulin regulates fat tissue. The more insulin, the less fuel comes out. Go low-carb, insulin drops, fuel starts pouring out. While it's likely that some systems need to rev back up at this point, it's not like they have to adapt to something they've never done before, it's just that they haven't done it that much for a while now.

As the liver produces more ketones, there's CMA going on, and this means literal declogging of the blood and inside the cells as glycated proteins get broken up and their elements used for something at last. We see this as a drop of HbA1c for example. Anyways, as this is going on, the systems that rely on these proteins - enzymes and hormones and lipoproteins and so forth - rev up as well.

A few days or weeks later, the various systems now work more than they used to, but not more than normal - they are working normally now because they are no longer disrupted by a constant influx of dietary carbs and subsequent hyperinsulinemia.

So, fat adapted? Sure, let's keep the term so we know what we're talking about, but it doesn't actually mean adaptation in my view.
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  #7   ^
Old Sat, Apr-22-17, 07:45
GRB5111's Avatar
GRB5111 GRB5111 is offline
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Plan: Ketogenic (LCHFKD)
Stats: 227/186/185 Male 6' 0"
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Location: Herndon, VA
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I agree. While we're able to do this transition from glucose to fat primary due to our genetic makeup, the transition occurs at a cellular level and it becomes easier after we've done it a few times. It's similar to an engine that hasn't been started in a while. It may be tough to turnover the first time, but easier after that. The metabolic pathways are cleared at a cellular level to enable us to move into fat primary more easily the more frequently the transition is made.
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  #8   ^
Old Sat, Apr-22-17, 11:10
zmktwzrd zmktwzrd is offline
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Plan: Ketogenic
Stats: 290/192/175 Male 5'11
BF:
Progress: 85%
Location: Central PA
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Wow, thank you teaser, GRB5111 and M Levac. Between the three of you I am more comfortable with this concept now.

“So, fat adapted? Sure, let's keep the term so we know what were talking about, but it doesn't actually mean adaptation in my view.”

Exactly!

I never thought we needed to “teach” our bodies how to do this. They already know how, but clearing away the clutter first does gel.

GRB5111 another analogy might be a through house cleaning after years of neglect. Once you have done it, you can get by with smaller subsequent cleanings with the same effect. Each cleaning is now just picking up the most recent mess as opposed to the years of the mess you had to pick up the first time.

Although, Phinney did once make a comment that is slightly contradictory to this. He described ketosis like the Seattle Space Needle. Once you fall off you go all the way to the bottom, and you must start over again, and it takes roughly two weeks to get back to the top.

GRB111, are you are saying that you disagree with this? Are you saying that you can get back into fat fat-adaption or ketosis (or both) faster now than the first time?

Maybe we (I) are not properly separating ketosis from fat-adapted?

Is it possible Phinney needed to be more specific? Maybe there are different heights to the Space Needle? Frankly, Phinney’s comment was profoundly helpful to me; I was so damn scared of falling off that Space Needle and needing two weeks to get back to the top that it kept me hyper-vigilant and compliant.

I am not sure I want to believe I can easily go on-and-off! For me, that is a slippery slope!
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  #9   ^
Old Sat, Apr-22-17, 12:10
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is online now
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Plan: ketosis/IF
Stats: 190/158/154 Male 67inches
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One possibility--the body adapts to spare glucose in a variety of ways. So, you take in a carb load on a holiday or something. This sparing could slow down the return to ketosis, the body being more frugal with its glucose stores.

After a holiday like Christmas, it can take me a while to recover and get back to normal. This year Christmas cookies had me binging on cheese and other low carb foods for a while--finally I did a day of basically fat fasting, but with unrestricted calories, and the day after that I was fine on my regular ketogenic diet.

Also Phinney has his protein suggestions quite a bit higher than what I actually eat, the lower limit of his suggested intake is at my usual upper limit, the higher the anti-ketogenic load of the diet, the slower the return should be to ketosis.
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  #10   ^
Old Sat, Apr-22-17, 14:08
GRB5111's Avatar
GRB5111 GRB5111 is offline
Posts: 1,930
 
Plan: Ketogenic (LCHFKD)
Stats: 227/186/185 Male 6' 0"
BF:
Progress: 98%
Location: Herndon, VA
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Dean - I believe Phinney may have been referring to the situation when one is fully efficient at using fat for fuel during endurance events or activities. I'd have to see more context to his statement. Know that Steve Phinney and Jeff Volek have been working with endurance athletes to enable a successful adaptation to fat as primary fuel. Some distance runners and cyclists have experienced longer event duration without having to consume glucose like many distance runners do when competing over a period of a few hours. In a glucose fueled individual, this fuel consumption during the event prevents them from hitting the wall.

I believe it's reasonable and we must separate fat-adapted from ketosis, as I believe fat-adapted means that one is able to easily burn fat as fuel as much as glucose. From personal experience, I may be out of ketosis, but I can still move back into fat burning rather quickly nowadays either with a short fast or diet using strict low carb or carb elimination for a period of time. I've also noticed that when I'm fasting (doing IF), I move through the initial sensations of hunger very quickly and no longer experience hunger at around 2-3 days into the fast. So, even if I'm not in ketosis, I can move quickly into ketosis and fat burning as primary with little time and effort. I know others will have views on this, as each one of us is a snowflake (i.e., one size does not fit all in terms of how each one of us responds to diet). For me, I like to stay in fat burning mode most of the time. As I've mentioned before, I call fat burning mode "burning clean."

Another source who may interest you is Amy Berger. She has a series about ketosis on her blog, and she goes into a lot of detail. Here's the link to her main page: http://www.tuitnutrition.com/

Here's the link to her keto blog: http://www.tuitnutrition.com/2015/0...carbs-stop.html

Here's the link to a shortened version: http://www.tuitnutrition.com/2015/0...carbs-stop.html

And another link that Janet recently provided on another thread: http://www.tuitnutrition.com/2016/0...-a-ketard2.html containing this quote, "You can be in ketosis and not lose body fat, and you can lose body fat without being in ketosis."

And here's part 1 of the 3 part series of blogs: http://www.tuitnutrition.com/2016/0...-a-ketard1.html

She also has just published a book, "The Alzheimer’s Antidote: Using a Low-Carb, High-Fat Diet to Fight Alzheimer’s Disease, Memory Loss, and Cognitive Decline," which I'm currently reading and it goes into a lot of detail on ketosis and fat burning. Really good stuff, much of which partly addresses your original question.

Last edited by GRB5111 : Sat, Apr-22-17 at 14:24.
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