Active Low-Carber Forums
Atkins diet and low carb discussion provided free for information only, not as medical advice.
Home Plans Tips Recipes Tools Stories Studies Products
Active Low-Carber Forums
A sugar-free zone


Welcome to the Active Low-Carber Forums.
Support for Atkins diet, Protein Power, Neanderthin (Paleo Diet), CAD/CALP, Dr. Bernstein Diabetes Solution and any other healthy low-carb diet or plan, all are welcome in our lowcarb community. Forget starvation and fad diets -- join the healthy eating crowd! You may register by clicking here, it's free!

Go Back   Active Low-Carber Forums > Main Low-Carb Diets Forums & Support > Low-Carb Studies & Research / Media Watch > Low-Carb War Zone
User Name
Password
Register FAQ Members Calendar Mark Forums Read Search Gallery My P.L.A.N. Survey


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1   ^
Old Mon, Mar-20-17, 16:13
HappyLC's Avatar
HappyLC HappyLC is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 1,786
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 212/164.4/135 Female 66.75
BF:
Progress: 62%
Location: Long Island, NY
Default Not losing on 1,000 low carb calories?

A testimonial from Mr. and Mrs. Vegan -
https://mrmrsvegan.tumblr.com/post/...r-and-mrs-vegan

Quote:
I was eating fatty chicken thighs and salmon and soaking my food in oil just to feel satisfied. At one point, I counted calories and realized I was eating less than 1000 calories a day. I lived off of the free coffee in my universityís study halls. In addition to eating so little, I was walking between 5-7 miles a day because I didnít have a car and Belfastís public transportation was inconsistent and less than stellar.
Despite literally starving, I wasnít losing a lot of weight. I had lost about 20lbs before then but my weight completely plateaued from thereĖ for obvious reasons. I knew something needed to change.


She goes on to say that she adopted a low fat, plant based diet and, on 2,500 caloried a day, lost 55bs.

I'm sorry, but I have to wonder if this person is being truthful. How is this possible?
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
  #2   ^
Old Mon, Mar-20-17, 18:01
M Levac M Levac is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 6,240
 
Plan: VLC, mostly meat
Stats: 202/200/165 Male 5' 7"
BF:
Progress: 5%
Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Default

From my experience, veganism is driven by moral imperative, which means facts are secondary to belief. Ergo, there's no strong incentive to control for facts that could influence the interpretation of results.

Now let's take a look at the facts which are reported so we can do our own interpretation. First, total calories on low-carb - 1,000. We can interpret this to mean a tiny amount of fat - it's not low-carb, it's low-fat. Our interpretation is supported by this phrase "...stuck in the low-carb, high protein diet mentality." Next, this phrase "...I was literally starving." We can interpret this to mean "I was hungry all the time." This confirms our interpretation of the calories/fat. The only logical inference is that she was eating a whole lot of carbs anyway, which kept her fasting insulin too high to allow fat to be released from fat tissue, so she omitted that part of her "low-carb" diet from her story. This explains the failure.

To explain the success on that high-carb diet, it's a little tricky. A priori, vegans tend to lie outright about what they actually eat (they eat meat, but they won't tell you - moral imperative, remember?), so it's impossible to determine what she ate just from her own words. But there's one phrase that explains it all "I want to lose about another 15-20lbs, and I know that I can without feeling deprived or miserable." (relating to her new "high-carb" diet) We can now interpret this to mean that she began to eat a whole lot more fat, hence the lack of feeling deprived and miserable. This is supported by her report of total caloric intake - 2,500kcals.

Our above interpretation of her failure and success is supported by experiments such as the Minnesota Semi-Starvation experiment, and the Bellevue All-Meat trial. In the first, constant hunger was common to all subjects. In the second, total lack of hunger was reported. However, in the first experiment, there was weight loss, so using a third experiment - the A-TO-Z experiment - we can now interpret this to mean that the carbs she ate on "low-carb" was mostly refined wheat and sugar, rather than fibrous turnip and cabbage. Ergo, WSLF is actually a low-carb diet in disguise, it omits or reduces refined and easily digestible carbs such as wheat and sugar. I searched that website for some reference to WSLF, and found a list of similar diets pushed as "advocated for milleniums", which is complete poppycock but that's besides the point. In that list, there's the Ornish diet, which is one of the four diets tested in the A-TO-Z experiment, and has been found effective but inferior to the Atkins diet is all measures including weight loss, further supporting our above interpretation of her failure and success.

Finally, the story is an email presented as a testimonial for whatever that website is selling. We should all be familiar with intarweb testimonials by now, so there's basically zero credibility in there. Ya, I know, this sounds like a sweeping dismissal, but that's how it goes with testimonials in my book.

Last edited by M Levac : Mon, Mar-20-17 at 18:09.
Reply With Quote
  #3   ^
Old Mon, Mar-20-17, 18:40
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 11,382
 
Plan: ketosis/IF
Stats: 190/158/154 Male 67inches
BF:
Progress: 89%
Location: Ontario
Default

Quote:
I found you, along with High Carb Hannah, around this time last year. I was living in Belfast, Northern Ireland while studying for my masterís, and I was literally starving. I was about 210lbs (and have been over 200lbs since I was 12-13 years old) and still stuck in the low-carb, high protein diet mentality. Meat in the UK/Ireland is crazy expensive, and I could only afford the equivalent of about $20-30/week in food. I was eating fatty chicken thighs and salmon and soaking my food in oil just to feel satisfied. At one point, I counted calories and realized I was eating less than 1000 calories a day. I lived off of the free coffee in my universityís study halls. In addition to eating so little, I was walking between 5-7 miles a day because I didnít have a car and Belfastís public transportation was inconsistent and less than stellar.
Despite literally starving, I wasnít losing a lot of weight. I had lost about 20lbs before then but my weight completely plateaued from thereĖ for obvious reasons.


The only way I can see this being plausible is if water balance was obscuring fat loss. Walking 5-7 miles a day at a bodyweight of 210 pounds, with a 24 hour metabolic rate under 1000 calories--some people have slow metabolisms, yes, but you'd expect a higher metabolic rate if she was in a coma.

That 20 pounds of weight loss can hide a lot. Suppose just five pounds of it were water--that water could be regained while 5 pounds of fat was being lost, and not show on the scale. That's 20 454 calories. She doesn't give a particular period over which she plateaued. But that's enough potentially hidden fat loss to make her story, as given, a bit more bellievable--she could easily be telling the truth as she experienced it, but entirely wrong about what was going on. Even people who are water fasting, a situation where not losing at least some body fat is pretty much impossible, will sometimes stall or even gain weight, for brief periods.
Reply With Quote
  #4   ^
Old Mon, Mar-20-17, 19:08
thud123's Avatar
thud123 thud123 is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 4,182
 
Plan: ~25NC/IF
Stats: 342.2/185.9/000 Male 72 inches
BF:
Progress: 46%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by teaser
--she could easily be telling the truth as she experienced it, but entirely wrong about what was going on...

Not the exclusive domain of the vegan. I think it might happen a lot more than we think right here too. I, myself, can easily be found out by reading back my journal with 20/20 hindsight
Reply With Quote
  #5   ^
Old Tue, Mar-21-17, 06:19
WereBear's Avatar
WereBear WereBear is offline
Posts: 9,968
 
Plan: Epi-Paleo/IF
Stats: 220/161/150 Female 67
BF:
Progress: 84%
Location: USA
Default

As an overweight teen, I biked for hours a day in the Florida heat while eating 1200 calories a day: and didn't lose a pound.
Reply With Quote
  #6   ^
Old Tue, Mar-21-17, 07:21
cotonpal's Avatar
cotonpal cotonpal is online now
Posts: 3,254
 
Plan: very low carb real food
Stats: 245/128/135 Female 62
BF:
Progress: 106%
Location: Vermont
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by thud123
Not the exclusive domain of the vegan. I think it might happen a lot more than we think right here too. I, myself, can easily be found out by reading back my journal with 20/20 hindsight


In other words, "don't believe everything you think". I see it here too and in just about any food oriented forum. "I did this and then that happened. Therefore this caused that". In our n=1 experiments as well as in the more formal experiments, correlation does not equal causation. And often we are not even talking about established correlations, just coincidences or misinterpretations or misapprehensions.

Jean
Reply With Quote
  #7   ^
Old Tue, Mar-21-17, 07:51
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 11,382
 
Plan: ketosis/IF
Stats: 190/158/154 Male 67inches
BF:
Progress: 89%
Location: Ontario
Default

It's true that we don't know the absolute lower limit for metabolism in free-living individuals. Hard to measure outside of a metabolic ward, and the metabolic ward itself is a stress likely to change the metabolic rate.
Reply With Quote
  #8   ^
Old Tue, Mar-21-17, 09:11
Liz53's Avatar
Liz53 Liz53 is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 6,125
 
Plan: Mostly Fung/IDM
Stats: 165/138.4/135 Female 63
BF:???/better/???
Progress: 89%
Location: Washington state
Default

I don't find it hard to imagine that someone is not losing on <1000 calories per day. What I do find more difficult to imagine is that someone cures it by eating 2500 predominantly carbohydrate calories per day.

If that's true (and, who knows, maybe it is), her body operates much differently than mine.
Reply With Quote
  #9   ^
Old Tue, Mar-21-17, 09:48
khrussva's Avatar
khrussva khrussva is offline
Posts: 5,884
 
Plan: My own - < 30 net carbs
Stats: 440/208/210 Male 5' 11"
BF:Energy Unleashed
Progress: 101%
Location: Central Virginia - USA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by cotonpal
In other words, "don't believe everything you think". I see it here too and in just about any food oriented forum. "I did this and then that happened. Therefore this caused that". In our n=1 experiments as well as in the more formal experiments, correlation does not equal causation. And often we are not even talking about established correlations, just coincidences or misinterpretations or misapprehensions.

Jean

Guilty. I have some embarrassingly naÔve comments splattered throughout my journal. I was much more confident in my ability to figure things out early on in the process. I made several "I did this" which resulted in "that" comments that proved not to be repeatable. I have figured out plenty about myself - but not as much as I would have liked. One of the most important things that I've learned is that what works for another individual may or may not work for me. I did an n=1 with carbs for 50 years. I'm pretty confident that high carb diet in the OP story is not a solution that would work for me.
Reply With Quote
  #10   ^
Old Tue, Mar-21-17, 11:11
GRB5111's Avatar
GRB5111 GRB5111 is offline
Posts: 1,905
 
Plan: Ketogenic (LCHFKD)
Stats: 227/186/185 Male 6' 0"
BF:
Progress: 98%
Location: Herndon, VA
Default

Martin's summary makes a lot of sense here in certain cases. The only difference between me and "some" vegans is that I admit that I eat meat, and I likely eat as many or more vegetables. Like many other posters, I know what would happen if I consumed carbs. Mr. and Mrs. Vegan have a few dogs in this hunt. I have one, my health.
Reply With Quote
  #11   ^
Old Tue, Mar-21-17, 11:22
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 11,382
 
Plan: ketosis/IF
Stats: 190/158/154 Male 67inches
BF:
Progress: 89%
Location: Ontario
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Liz53
I don't find it hard to imagine that someone is not losing on <1000 calories per day. What I do find more difficult to imagine is that someone cures it by eating 2500 predominantly carbohydrate calories per day.

If that's true (and, who knows, maybe it is), her body operates much differently than mine.


I ate mostly bananas for a week, once. Went into that from basically Atkins. I was surprised to find that it had a very diuretic effect, even though I was trying to eat to maintenance, I kept losing body water. Since I probably went in with low glycogen stores, I would have thought I'd at least gain some glycogen weight.

I wonder if she's checked her blood glucose? Early on, before injecting insulin became an option, a low carb diet was used as an attempt to slow weight loss. Insulin doesn't need to be as high to store 1000 calories as fat and protein as it does to store 1000 calories of carbohydrate, carbs are only fattening if enough insulin shows up to do the job.

Or maybe it's a salt/potassium thing, the usual suggested intakes don't make much difference, but more extreme changes might. I didn't salt those bananas.
Reply With Quote
  #12   ^
Old Tue, Mar-21-17, 13:14
Justin Jor Justin Jor is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 181
 
Plan: Bernsteinish
Stats: 314/231/199 Male 6'1
BF:
Progress: 72%
Default

For one thing, if she's "soaking food in oil" then I don't see any way she was only eating a thousand calories a day. Likewise, that's like three or four chicken thighs.

So, you know....
Reply With Quote
  #13   ^
Old Tue, Mar-21-17, 14:41
WereBear's Avatar
WereBear WereBear is offline
Posts: 9,968
 
Plan: Epi-Paleo/IF
Stats: 220/161/150 Female 67
BF:
Progress: 84%
Location: USA
Default

The phrase "soaking food in oil" sounds more like what someone accuses Atkins of being, not someone who actually knew how to do a LCHF diet.

And I agree with Martin; words have different meanings when it comes to people embracing this lifestyle in a proselytizing, holier-than-thou kind of way. A small roundup of such translation:
  • Eats meat several times a week = I'm practically vegetarian!
  • Eats mainly chicken and fish = Vegetarian, because that's not meat.
  • Eating meat in a restaurant = Doesn't count, my kitchen is my lifestyle.
  • Freaks out discovering the soup broth was meat-based = It was delicious and I was going to order it again!
  • Says it's about "the animals" but cares nothing about the habitat destruction and pesticide use that came from their highly processed diet = almost all of them.

And really, people can eat any way that works for them. Just stop lying about it!
Reply With Quote
  #14   ^
Old Tue, Mar-21-17, 15:08
deirdra's Avatar
deirdra deirdra is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 3,714
 
Plan: HF/vLC/GF,CF,SF
Stats: 197/136/150 Female 66 inches
BF:
Progress: 130%
Location: Alberta
Default

Or: Practices Meatless Mondays, Fish on Friday and puts dairy and eggs in everything = I'm practically vegan!
Reply With Quote
  #15   ^
Old Tue, Mar-21-17, 16:55
thud123's Avatar
thud123 thud123 is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 4,182
 
Plan: ~25NC/IF
Stats: 342.2/185.9/000 Male 72 inches
BF:
Progress: 46%
Default

Isn't it funny how one can do the exact thing they are railing against in space of one post? It reminds me how how Captain Kirk blew up that Nomad computer with vexing logic...
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 21:56.


Copyright © 2000-2017 Active Low-Carber Forums @ forum.lowcarber.org
Powered by: vBulletin, Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.