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  #1   ^
Old Sun, Oct-09-16, 20:32
Luckup Luckup is offline
New Member
Posts: 12
 
Plan: low-carb, low-fiber
Stats: 140/140/140 Male 68 inches
BF:
Progress:
Default Low Fiber is More Important???

(NOTE: After posting this yesterday, someone provided some links to opposing claims that seem credible, so I'm rethinking all of this.)

The combination of high fiber and high carbs seems to be a one-two knockout punch. Fiber is mostly in carb foods: legumes, grains, nuts, seeds and a little less in fruits and vegs (unless they're dried etc).

The author of GutSense.org and Fiber Menace says fiber damages GI tract mucosa, causes indigestion, malabsorption, inflammation & blockages, kills microflora and causes malnutrition and concomitant diseases. After fiber etc kills off microflora, carbs come along and feed their enemy, yeast/fungus (Candida), which then poisons the blood stream, causing systemic inflammation.

Fiber isn't terrible in the short term, as the weight helps drag along feces, but all of the above effects become apparent in the long term.

He explains that breast-fed infants have no trouble with bowel movements until they're put on "solid foods" that contain fiber. He also points out that the longest lived people, especially in Sardinia and Okinawa, have very low-fiber diets. He says the U.S. has the highest-fiber diets in the world and has poor health as a result, while most of the healthier nations have lower-fiber diets.

Last edited by Luckup : Mon, Oct-10-16 at 17:44.
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  #2   ^
Old Sun, Oct-09-16, 21:07
GreekRibs's Avatar
GreekRibs GreekRibs is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 2,637
 
Plan: LCHF
Stats: 188/139/138 Female 5'9"
BF:
Progress: 98%
Location: Saskatchewan
Default

I'll always be looking for fibre in my diet, particularly soluble fibre. I'm a big fan of Mark's Daily Apple which discusses Gut Sense/Fibre Menace ideas.
http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread65706.html

...particularly this indepth response, if you're interested:
http://medcapsules.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=2665

Low fibre diets are usually prescribed pre or post surgery or for conditions like Crohn's Disease.

I do not believe a low carb healthy fat woe is mutually exclusive from healthy fibre in a diet.
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  #3   ^
Old Sun, Oct-09-16, 21:41
DelaneyLC's Avatar
DelaneyLC DelaneyLC is offline
Posts: 1,993
 
Plan: Atkins '72
Stats: 188/143/144 Female 5'4"
BF:
Progress: 102%
Location: NV
Default

I have felt 100% better on low fiber to no fiber. It works for me and I have read others here on the board who agree with this. The bulk is not necessary and can be harmful for people with intestinal issues.
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  #4   ^
Old Mon, Oct-10-16, 01:01
Locarber16's Avatar
Locarber16 Locarber16 is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 115
 
Plan: Atkins, Primal,
Stats: 169/158/137 Female 5'5"
BF:
Progress: 34%
Location: Under da Sea
Default

When I started low carbing it was more difficult to get the same amount of fiber into my diet. I was concerned about this because the health of the GI tract affects all the other systems. It's like a second brain...hormones mood etc. Taking out the wholegrains, beans and pulses and adding in more red meat and animal fat which then has a slower transit time through the gut can potentially put one at risk for certain diseases. So I had a look around for lc ways to add fiber and came up with shirataki noodles, whole flax seeds and chia seeds which I roll peanut butter balls around in for some crunch.
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  #5   ^
Old Mon, Oct-10-16, 01:31
Meme#1's Avatar
Meme#1 Meme#1 is online now
Posts: 7,761
 
Plan: Atkins DANDR
Stats: 210/183/160 Female 5'4"
BF:
Progress: 54%
Location: Texas
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GreekRibs
I'll always be looking for fibre in my diet, particularly soluble fibre. I'm a big fan of Mark's Daily Apple which discusses Gut Sense/Fibre Menace ideas.
http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread65706.html

...particularly this indepth response, if you're interested:
http://medcapsules.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=2665

Low fibre diets are usually prescribed pre or post surgery or for conditions like Crohn's Disease.

I do not believe a low carb healthy fat woe is mutually exclusive from healthy fibre in a diet.


I've been up reading the Mark's daily apple for the last hour and so many things they discussed ring true in my case. Although I've never had a lifelong problem with BM, my acute attack put me on an 8 month of recovery that had me eliminating all insoluble fiber, instinctively. I had to stop all raw veggies and eliminated high fiber like green beans, asparagus, avocado. I went to very well cooked foods beginning with chicken soup for quite a while. Later (4 months) I was able to move into cooked Zucchini and yellow squash which I found to be very low in insoluble fiber and cooking them makes them almost predigested. Only now after 7-8 months am I able to have salad again. Any extra fibrous green beans, as in larger and picked too late with threads are a nono..

Thanks for that link GR

Now I'll go read the second one

Last edited by Meme#1 : Mon, Oct-10-16 at 15:55.
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  #6   ^
Old Mon, Oct-10-16, 09:55
Bintang's Avatar
Bintang Bintang is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 252
 
Plan: MyOwn:CHO<90g/d
Stats: 207/149/150 Male 169 cm
BF:40%/17%/18%
Progress: 102%
Location: Jakarta, Indonesia
Default

I think the obsession about fibre intake is just that - an obsession.
A statistical analysis of all the fibre containing carbohydrate (CHO) foods that are a regular part of my diet revealed that the average fibre content is 21g/100g of total CHO. This means I would have to eat a minimum of 167 g total CHO or 132 g of net CHO to achieve the typical fibre RDI for men of ~35 g/day.
Thereafter I decided that this fibre RDI (by whatever merits or otherwise it has been determined) is incompatible with a low carb WOE and I happily choose to ignore it.
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  #7   ^
Old Mon, Oct-10-16, 09:58
MickiSue MickiSue is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 8,006
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 189/148.6/145 Female 5' 5"
BF:36%/28%/25%
Progress: 92%
Location: Twin Cities, MN
Default

If we think about the way that our ancestors ate, they rarely ate high fiber foods in the amounts that we supposedly need. There is a reason that protein and fat transit the digestive system more slowly: they take longer to break down and become small enough molecules to cross into the bloodstream.

But without lots of grains to lead to inflammation in the gut, slower transit time doesn't need to be an issue.

For those who used to eat a lot of "healthy whole grains", suddenly having much smaller and less frequent stools can seem to be a problem. But it makes sense: those big bulky things were just filled with the byproducts of what we ate that our bodies could NOT digest. Letting the food we eat take its time through the digestive tract, and be actually absorbed along the way, is a GOOD result, not a bad one.
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  #8   ^
Old Mon, Oct-10-16, 10:34
Meme#1's Avatar
Meme#1 Meme#1 is online now
Posts: 7,761
 
Plan: Atkins DANDR
Stats: 210/183/160 Female 5'4"
BF:
Progress: 54%
Location: Texas
Default

There is a reason that cows regurgitate and re-chew their grass/grains multiple times before it goes down for good. Even they would be very sick if they didn't do that.
Humans began milling their grains at some point but during the low-fat craze, some how they convinced humans to begin buying and eating livestock feed....aka whole grains. We were not designed to eat like that but cows were.
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  #9   ^
Old Mon, Oct-10-16, 11:10
Meme#1's Avatar
Meme#1 Meme#1 is online now
Posts: 7,761
 
Plan: Atkins DANDR
Stats: 210/183/160 Female 5'4"
BF:
Progress: 54%
Location: Texas
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GreekRibs
I'll always be looking for fibre in my diet, particularly soluble fibre. I'm a big fan of Mark's Daily Apple which discusses Gut Sense/Fibre Menace ideas.
http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread65706.html

...particularly this indepth response, if you're interested:
http://medcapsules.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=2665

Low fibre diets are usually prescribed pre or post surgery or for conditions like Crohn's Disease.

I do not believe a low carb healthy fat woe is mutually exclusive from healthy fibre in a diet.


Just a word of warning, in that second link I ran into some trouble. First it had a Weston Price link that didn't work.
The BIG problem happened when I clicked on a web-site at the bottom of that second article and my security went crazy and said that it was a malicious.
I had to shut down my computer and will need to do a scan...
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  #10   ^
Old Mon, Oct-10-16, 11:24
Buttoni's Avatar
Buttoni Buttoni is offline
Patience Personified
Posts: 3,145
 
Plan: Atkins/CNS
Stats: 199/182/150 Female 5'5"
BF:5'5" tall
Progress: 35%
Location: Temple, Texas
Default

I don't fret about fiber much. I know the recommendation is 25g a day, but I don't believe there is a "one-size-fits-all" number for fiber (or any food group). I happen to love vegetables, but I listen to my body when it comes to food. I eat vegetables when I feel like it; I don't when I don't. I'm soon to turn 68 and have never had BM problems, so clearly that approach is workin' for me.

Have I eliminated grains? Pretty much, but still use small amounts at times. I do think there is very real evidence that grains and the human digestive tract were never meant to be. Why else would people (myself included) say again on LC forums they lose the indigestion and gas when they go low-carb (low grains)? And why can low-carbers eat so many cruciferous veggies but still not have the gas issues those veggies once gave them? Because they are not consumed along WITH grains. It would appear it is not the cruciferous veggies that give people gas, but the combination of vegetables WITH LARGE AMOUNTS OF GRAINS. At least that is MY theory. I say "large amounts" because I eat small amounts of grains and the gas problems have not returned.

I've come to the conclusion I'm personally not going to 100% eliminate vegetables, grains, fat, or now, the latest hype is red meat. I'm just not going to be extreme with my eating. I'm a real red meat lover and tried zero-carb recently and I felt there was just something missing in my enjoyment of food on that WOE.

I consume 1-2 vegetables everyday and consume very tiny amount of oats, faro, Einkorn or ancient forms of wheat, and their flours maybe once a week (1-4T in a recipe). I have no indigestion, stomach issues, BM or gas issues and I think the key is to eat VERY SMALL AMOUNTS of grains. I'm just not willing to give up the nutrients and anti-oxidants in grains and vegetables. I do eat MUCH less of both of them than I ate 10 years ago, and it's my plan to continue on that plan. I think people can very easily become zealots about various food groups and I'm just not going to do that. To each their opinions.

We can influence producers/farmers with our purchasing power (or lack thereof), but I'm not sure we can ever turn around Big Agra or Big Pharma's priorities of greater crops and $$$ profit. They will never put our health ahead of those goals no matter how much we discuss it, attend protests, blog about it, write to our do-nothing congressmen to complain about it. So I buy what I think to be the best food (meat, veggies and ancient grain) and hope for the best. Life's too short to become a food zealot. JMHO.
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  #11   ^
Old Mon, Oct-10-16, 12:20
Bonnie OFS Bonnie OFS is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 2,029
 
Plan: Dr. Bernstein
Stats: 188/160/135 Female 5 ft 4 inches
BF:
Progress: 53%
Location: NE WA
Default

I'm one of those people for whom too much fiber is a problem - and too much for me seems to be a fraction of what would be too much for normal people. That's one reason I love lchf - very little fiber.
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  #12   ^
Old Mon, Oct-10-16, 12:31
deirdra's Avatar
deirdra deirdra is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 3,713
 
Plan: HF/vLC/GF,CF,SF
Stats: 197/136/150 Female 66 inches
BF:
Progress: 130%
Location: Alberta
Default

In my grandmother's day it was called roughage, but included iceberg lettuce, not mega amounts of added fiber. Also, the fiber craze came along with the anti-fat message. Without fat to move things along, and before people understood the importance of magnesium, a nutrition-free fiber rotor-rooter was the only thing that nutritionist "experts" could come up with to help their constipated clients. But it clogs some people up more.
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  #13   ^
Old Mon, Oct-10-16, 12:39
Bonnie OFS Bonnie OFS is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 2,029
 
Plan: Dr. Bernstein
Stats: 188/160/135 Female 5 ft 4 inches
BF:
Progress: 53%
Location: NE WA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by deirdra
Without fat to move things along, and before people understood the importance of magnesium, a nutrition-free fiber rotor-rooter was the only thing that nutritionist "experts" could come up with to help their constipated clients.




I remember a heavy-duty high-fiber bread my sister used to make. That's pretty much how she described its effect. There is a vegetable (I think) that long ago was called nature's broom - I googled it & found out it is now a brand name.

I do miss my oatmeal, tho. It may sound strange, but a favorite snack (more like a meal sometimes) was uncooked oatmeal mixed with small cubes of cheese. Now I eat my cheese allowance with my allowance of pecans. Good combo!
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  #14   ^
Old Mon, Oct-10-16, 17:30
Luckup Luckup is offline
New Member
Posts: 12
 
Plan: low-carb, low-fiber
Stats: 140/140/140 Male 68 inches
BF:
Progress:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GreekRibs
I'll always be looking for fibre in my diet, particularly soluble fibre. I'm a big fan of Mark's Daily Apple which discusses Gut Sense/Fibre Menace ideas.
http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread65706.html

...particularly this indepth response, if you're interested:
http://medcapsules.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=2665

Low fibre diets are usually prescribed pre or post surgery or for conditions like Crohn's Disease.

I do not believe a low carb healthy fat woe is mutually exclusive from healthy fibre in a diet.


Thank you. I checked out the links and the authors seem to know what they're talking about. I have a lot of homework to do. I need to find out if the long-lived people of Sardinia and Okinawa have very low fiber diets as the GutSense site claimed. If they do, then it seems likely that only small amounts of fiber may be best. Whatever their average level of fiber is what apparently is generally best. I also need to find out if breast-fed infants have no fiber in their diets and, if so, why they can get away without fiber. And things like that. If anyone has answers already, please let me know.

Both GutSense and one of your links agree that some soluble fiber is needed to feed our microflora. So the question is how much fiber and what kinds are ideal. I had read back in the 80s I think that fiber in fruits is good against cancer, but fiber in grains is not. The http://medcapsules.com site seems very informative. I'm surprised that it finds so much falsehood in Dr. Mercola's articles. Looks like Mercola is wrong about soy, fructose and mercury fillings, e.g. And it says Mercola is on the board of directors of the W.A.Price Foundation, which is funded by the meat and dairy industries.

Last edited by Luckup : Mon, Oct-10-16 at 17:41.
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  #15   ^
Old Mon, Oct-10-16, 17:34
MickiSue MickiSue is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 8,006
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 189/148.6/145 Female 5' 5"
BF:36%/28%/25%
Progress: 92%
Location: Twin Cities, MN
Default

Of course breast fed babies (and bottle fed ones for that matter) have no fiber in their diets. Fiber stays in the gut, it doesn't get into the bloodstream where it would need to go in order to become breast milk.
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