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  #31   ^
Old Fri, Apr-15-16, 08:18
cotonpal's Avatar
cotonpal cotonpal is offline
Posts: 3,076
 
Plan: very low carb real food
Stats: 245/130/135 Female 62
BF:
Progress: 105%
Location: Vermont
Default

The concept of "disease" has no definitive definition. Jacalyn Duffin, a doctor and medical historian, says that diseases are ideas, and that there are good ideas and bad ideas. Diseases aren't solid things that we possess but ways of thinking about processes in our bodies and these ways of thinking change over time. In other words whether one thinks of lchf as a cure for diabetes or a way to put diabetes into remission doesn't really matter as long as we clearly state what we mean when we use the chosen term.

Like Ken, I owe my success on the WOE to a large extent by thinking of sugar or high carb substances as poisons rather than food. I do not willingly ingest poison.

Jean
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  #32   ^
Old Fri, Apr-15-16, 21:39
rider44 rider44 is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 27
 
Plan: based on the book below
Stats: 150/150/150 Male 178cm
BF:
Progress:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JEY100
Another terrific post, Ken I need to start collecting "Pearls of wisdom from Ken" ..but wait...you are writing a book with those

Rider, just wanted to mention that I hope you are reading the Diabetes forum, especially the active Jason Fung thread . Don't dismiss the benefits of fasting because you don't need to lose weight. Recently I had only been fasting whenever the mood struck, but this week I returned to a 1-4 hour "eating window" every day and my BG has dropped every single day. Starting in high 90s, just tested FBG 76. It may work quickly for me because I have used fasting for almost 2 years and have tested very low insulin levels...but shoot, they came back down fast.

For your situation, and fasting's many other health benefits, encourage you to try it out. Eating "lowish" in carbs based on Dr Fung's simple guidelines at the same calorie level, but with a 18/6 or 20/4 Warrior type fasting schedule.


Hi, Janet

Thanks for your suggestions, I do follow Dr Fung's email and Youtube video on IF. Since all these are rather new to me so I am trying to first understand and see if I can find some role models to follow, then I can make some changes on my diet, probably, LC+IF, hopefully :

1. get better control on my BG levels,
2. reduce medications,
3. eventually free from medication.

So hopefully these three goals can be achieved. I am sure with many helps from the forum, like you, I will succeed. For me this would a miracle because I have been told by doctors that once you becomes diabetes patient, then it will go with you for your life.
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  #33   ^
Old Fri, Apr-15-16, 22:31
rider44 rider44 is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 27
 
Plan: based on the book below
Stats: 150/150/150 Male 178cm
BF:
Progress:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MickiSue
I am not diabetic. Nor, with a healthy LCHF diet, do I plan to be.

The US government, while highly influenced by the demands of Big Pharma, is not yet, to the best of my knowledge, owned by them. It's laughable to think that there would be any research funded on the effects of diet on disease by Big Pharma; it's against their best interests. But we, individually and collectively, really should demand that government funded studies move forward to compare the effects of a low carb diet against the currently recommended regimes.

.


First, I fully agree with you. I thought NIH got public money for research, why not work on the studies you mentioned above? So I am a bit confused.

As I posted previously, LC diet is not mentioned at the site of NIH-NIDDK at all. Seems to me at least some studies on LC diet vs current medication regimes should be compared to assess advantages of each methods.
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  #34   ^
Old Sat, Apr-16-16, 06:48
bluesinger's Avatar
bluesinger bluesinger is offline
Maintaining
Posts: 2,603
 
Plan: LCHF
Stats: 000/000/000 Female 62 inches
BF:22%
Progress: 100%
Location: Nevada Desert, USA
Default Maybe this should be in the War Zone

Moderators, maybe my post belongs in the War Zone.

Opinion:

I think we've been misled for so long we no longer see the facts.
T1D is a disease few people have and it is a legitimate disease which can be terminal if not treated.
T2D, on the other hand, is a condition brought about by nutritional abuse. Others on this forum have said this, just in different ways. Everybody can become T2D, even thin people.

Simply stated the process becomes:

Nutritional abuse
Numbers are bad, diagnosed T2D
Stop nutritional abuse
Symptoms go away, numbers are good again
Eat that way again
T2D

I wonder if we can call a condition everybody can eat their way into a disease.
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  #35   ^
Old Sat, Apr-16-16, 07:19
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is offline
To Good Health!
Posts: 9,402
 
Plan: IF Fung/LC Westman/Primal
Stats: 222/171/169 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/25.3%/24%
Progress: 96%
Location: NC
Default

And I thought if I answered how the NIH divvies up its research dollars that discussion would also end up in the political war zone
An article from back in 2011 http://www.huffingtonpost.com/tamar...g_b_545500.html

Quote:
And where does prevention fit into medical research spending? When I spoke with Dr. Field, he pointed out that we humans seem to be geared toward issues that give us emotional satisfaction. Science has a much stronger emotional pull when it can point to evidence of how it saves people who were once ill and do not die. This is more compelling than when we simply prevent disease. In other words, there is much more emotional valence in saying, “that person had cancer and is now better,” as opposed to “we got that person to quit smoking and so now he may not get cancer.” Interestingly, Field remarked that Americans seem to feel this way more than our foreign counterparts.

Adding another Fung post about why diabetes IS reversible, his classic "turd in the punch bowl" rant: https://intensivedietarymanagement....-diabetes-t2d5/

Through Dr Westman's support group, local and on-online, I know many who have reversed their diabetes...for years. There was a new post this morning from a women I met at the Feb meeting. She started the clinic diet on Jan 26th, in 4 weeks she was off all insulin. In less than 3 months, her A1c has gone from 8.9 to 6.8. Wrote she has never had a 6 number "in her diabetic life", even though she was on high levels of insulin. She has a long weight loss journey ahead and her diabetic neuropathy will take time to resolve, but she will not go back to the way of eating that had caused years of suffering.

You would enjoy the FREE Diabetes Summit starting Monday. Dr Westman is one of five speakers kicking it off, all about LCHF and Diabetes. Details in the diabetes forum.

Last edited by JEY100 : Sun, Apr-17-16 at 03:03.
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  #36   ^
Old Sat, Apr-16-16, 08:31
khrussva's Avatar
khrussva khrussva is offline
Posts: 5,735
 
Plan: My own - < 30 net carbs
Stats: 440/209/210 Male 5' 11"
BF:Energy Unleashed
Progress: 100%
Location: Central Virginia - USA
Default

As I said in my post I was totally ignorant about this subject just 2 short years ago. When I did finally have a really good reason to know more about it the answer seemed pretty obvious to me and the results I've gotten seem to back that up.

I've posted in my journal several times about my doctor visits that I've had along this journey. I've said that I love my doctor and I do. She has been supportive of my diet for the most part, but she still has so much old school thinking. She gives way too much 'healing' credit to the weight loss and very little credit to the means. She does not seem to understand that how I eat is why this is happening - cause and effect. I could not have lost 236 pounds in 26 months with Weight Watchers or some other low fat diet. I couldn't have stuck to it, anyway; I never could before. And even if I could have - would diabetes have resolved itself with me still eating bread? I don't think so.

My doctor is a very smart human being, but there is a sort of blindness there that I've been working on penetrating. For crying out loud -- I was still 375 pounds when I resolved my diabetes to pre-diabetic levels. I was 300 pound when my BP fell within normal levels without BP medication. My A1C was totally normal by the time I got down to 293 pounds. I WAS STILL VERY, VERY, VERY FAT and yet the symptoms of metabolic syndrome were dropping like flies. The obesity was just another symptom. It was not the cause. I keep singing my tune at those doctor visits and from her comments I'm not sure how much of the message is getting across.

But you know, not many people lose over 200 pounds in two years. There are probably more documented here on this forum than just about anywhere else. I asked my doctor about it and she said that she has never had any patient in all her years of practice do anything close to what I have done. I think there is a certain superiority complex common in the doctor patient relationship. I think doctor's filter out a lot of what they hear from their patients. At this last visit, I actually got the sense that she was listening to me. There is hope yet. I also printed out and gave her a copy of my last milestone. She sounded happy to have it and I declared it public information so she can share it if she wants to. I hope she does. We need more people to get healthy.

Last edited by khrussva : Sat, Apr-16-16 at 08:38.
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  #37   ^
Old Sat, Apr-16-16, 08:35
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 11,219
 
Plan: ketosis/IF
Stats: 190/158/154 Male 67inches
BF:
Progress: 89%
Location: Ontario
Default

I think another problem when it comes to government funding in regards to disease prevention is the focus. Their concern is with populations--so a lot of the focus is on epidemiology. If you want to know what makes a population healthy, why not look at populations? The answer is, because it doesn't actually work. People don't get sick because of what their neighbours are eating, if their food makes them sick, it's because of what they eat themselves.


Here's a metastudy that "shows" that low carbohydrate diets are probably unhealthy in the long term.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3555979/

Quote:
Low-Carbohydrate Diets and All-Cause Mortality: A Systematic Review and Meta-Analysis of Observational Studies

Abstract
Objective

Low-carbohydrate diets and their combination with high-protein diets have been gaining widespread popularity to control weight. In addition to weight loss, they may have favorable short-term effects on the risk factors of cardiovascular disease (CVD). Our objective was to elucidate their long-term effects on mortality and CVD incidence.

Data sources

MEDLINE, EMBASE, ISI Web of Science, Cochrane Library, and ClinicalTrials.gov for relevant articles published as of September 2012. Cohort studies of at least one year’s follow-up period were included.

Review methods

Identified articles were systematically reviewed and those with pertinent data were selected for meta-analysis. Pooled risk ratios (RRs) with 95% confidence intervals (CIs) for all-cause mortality, CVD mortality and CVD incidence were calculated using the random-effects model with inverse-variance weighting.

Results

We included 17 studies for a systematic review, followed by a meta-analysis using pertinent data. Of the 272,216 people in 4 cohort studies using the low-carbohydrate score, 15,981 (5.9%) cases of death from all-cause were reported. The risk of all-cause mortality among those with high low-carbohydrate score was significantly elevated: the pooled RR (95% CI) was 1.31 (1.07–1.59). A total of 3,214 (1.3%) cases of CVD death among 249,272 subjects in 3 cohort studies and 5,081 (2.3%) incident CVD cases among 220,691 people in different 4 cohort studies were reported. The risks of CVD mortality and incidence were not statistically increased: the pooled RRs (95% CIs) were 1.10 (0.98–1.24) and 0.98 (0.78–1.24), respectively. Analyses using low-carbohydrate/high-protein score yielded similar results.

Conclusion

Low-carbohydrate diets were associated with a significantly higher risk of all-cause mortality and they were not significantly associated with a risk of CVD mortality and incidence. However, this analysis is based on limited observational studies and large-scale trials on the complex interactions between low-carbohydrate diets and long-term outcomes are needed.


The biggest problem with the low carb studies included in this meta analysis was that they didn't look at people eating low carb, they looked at the people in the populations studied who were eating the least carbohydrate. If you take the bottom 25 percent of a typical population and look at the people with the lowest carbohydrate score, they may still be eating large amounts of carbohydrate.

http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/8....expansion.html


Here's an example from the Nurse's Health study. The decile with the lowest carbohydrate score ate 46.1 percent fat, 29.6 percent carbohydrate, 21.9 percent protein. A diet of nothing but Big Mac's gives 51 fat, 31 carbohydrate, 18 percent protein. Pretty close. Chicken Mcnuggets have an even stronger low carb "score," 52 percent fat, 24 percent each carbs and protein.
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  #38   ^
Old Tue, Apr-19-16, 06:56
rider44 rider44 is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 27
 
Plan: based on the book below
Stats: 150/150/150 Male 178cm
BF:
Progress:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by cotonpal
The concept of "disease" has no definitive definition. Jacalyn Duffin, a doctor and medical historian, says that diseases are ideas, and that there are good ideas and bad ideas. Diseases aren't solid things that we possess but ways of thinking about processes in our bodies and these ways of thinking change over time. In other words whether one thinks of lchf as a cure for diabetes or a way to put diabetes into remission doesn't really matter as long as we clearly state what we mean when we use the chosen term.

Like Ken, I owe my success on the WOE to a large extent by thinking of sugar or high carb substances as poisons rather than food. I do not willingly ingest poison.

Jean


thanks, will try to reduce my high carb food, and see if the WOE can help me to reduce medication
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  #39   ^
Old Tue, Apr-19-16, 07:24
rider44 rider44 is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 27
 
Plan: based on the book below
Stats: 150/150/150 Male 178cm
BF:
Progress:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JEY100
And I thought if I answered how the NIH divvies up its research dollars that discussion would also end up in the political war zone
An article from back in 2011 http://www.huffingtonpost.com/tamar...g_b_545500.html


Adding another Fung post about why diabetes IS reversible, his classic "turd in the punch bowl" rant: https://intensivedietarymanagement....-diabetes-t2d5/

Through Dr Westman's support group, local and on-online, I know many who have reversed their diabetes...for years. There was a new post this morning from a women I met at the Feb meeting. She started the clinic diet on Jan 26th, in 4 weeks she was off all insulin. In less than 3 months, her A1c has gone from 8.9 to 6.8. Wrote she has never had a 6 number "in her diabetic life", even though she was on high levels of insulin. She has a long weight loss journey ahead and her diabetic neuropathy will take time to resolve, but she will not go back to the way of eating that had caused years of suffering.

You would enjoy the FREE Diabetes Summit starting Monday. Dr Westman is one of five speakers kicking it off, all about LCHF and Diabetes. Details in the diabetes forum.


Did not realise that there are politics involved in NIH funding too

I tried to find some success stories in reversing diabetes, so far only people overweighted, so basically by LC +IF first to lose weight, and then reverse
diabetes. I would like to learn more about how normal weight can reverse
their diabetes so I can learn from their successful stories.

Could not find the link to the Summit, can you pass me a url link?

Thanks
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  #40   ^
Old Tue, Apr-19-16, 07:27
rider44 rider44 is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 27
 
Plan: based on the book below
Stats: 150/150/150 Male 178cm
BF:
Progress:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bluesinger
Moderators, maybe my post belongs in the War Zone.

Opinion:

I think we've been misled for so long we no longer see the facts.
T1D is a disease few people have and it is a legitimate disease which can be terminal if not treated.
T2D, on the other hand, is a condition brought about by nutritional abuse. Others on this forum have said this, just in different ways. Everybody can become T2D, even thin people.

Simply stated the process becomes:

Nutritional abuse
Numbers are bad, diagnosed T2D
Stop nutritional abuse
Symptoms go away, numbers are good again
Eat that way again
T2D

I wonder if we can call a condition everybody can eat their way into a disease.


I have read your web site, enjoyed very much. Thanks for sharing your
views.
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  #41   ^
Old Tue, Apr-19-16, 07:56
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is offline
To Good Health!
Posts: 9,402
 
Plan: IF Fung/LC Westman/Primal
Stats: 222/171/169 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/25.3%/24%
Progress: 96%
Location: NC
Default

Where are you looking for success stories?
http://www.dietdoctor.com/diabetes Dr Wortman had a few extra pounds, but probably not considered overweight. Same with Dr. Tim Noakes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fL5-9ZxamXc
It is estimated 20% of diabetics are "normal weight", so the success stories are out there, but that won't prove what will happen to YOU on a LCHF diet. Best to try a 20g total carb per day diet for a month, keep a complete record your fasting and PP BG each day, after a range of foods, and see if your BG drops to normal range.

http://forum.lowcarber.org/showthread.php?t=472842

http://thediabetessummit.com

Last edited by JEY100 : Tue, Apr-19-16 at 12:55.
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  #42   ^
Old Tue, Apr-19-16, 09:00
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 11,219
 
Plan: ketosis/IF
Stats: 190/158/154 Male 67inches
BF:
Progress: 89%
Location: Ontario
Default

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/a...SE-11-DAYS.html

I don't know if this has been posted yet. Just one anecdote, but the subject was never much overweight--they don't say specifically, but judging from the misleading headline and the text, I'd guess he started with a bmi of 25.1, barely in the overweight category. He talks about wanting to lose a sixth of his weight, to match subjects who reverted to pre-pre-diabetes or whatever we're calling it today, but I don't think the people who developed this particular approach would want to dwell on that much, it's fatty liver and pancreas they're more concerned with, and it takes very little actual fat to muck things up there. Being obese certainly makes it more likely for a person's liver and pancreas to be excessively fatty, but being otherwise very lean doesn't rule it out.

The diet used was 45 percent carbohydrate, so not a very ketogenic ratio, but since the calories were kept to 600 plus some low carb veggies, the actual anti-ketogenic load was probably lower than it would be for people eating low carbohydrate diets to satiety.
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  #43   ^
Old Tue, Apr-19-16, 11:21
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is offline
To Good Health!
Posts: 9,402
 
Plan: IF Fung/LC Westman/Primal
Stats: 222/171/169 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/25.3%/24%
Progress: 96%
Location: NC
Default

Here 'ya go...NYT Well blog yesterday.
"Hope for Reversing Type 2 Diabetes"
It focuses on Dr Taylor's small trial in the UK (you can find a thread about the Newcastle diet the diabetes forum)
http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2016/...d=fb-share&_r=0

There were better trials listed in that Science review on LC as first choice of treatment for diabetes I posted earlier in the thread, http://www.nutritionjrnl.com/articl...0332-3/fulltext

...but it is not news until it "is fit to print in the NYT"

Last edited by JEY100 : Tue, Apr-19-16 at 12:58.
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  #44   ^
Old Tue, Apr-19-16, 12:07
khrussva's Avatar
khrussva khrussva is offline
Posts: 5,735
 
Plan: My own - < 30 net carbs
Stats: 440/209/210 Male 5' 11"
BF:Energy Unleashed
Progress: 100%
Location: Central Virginia - USA
Default

If I went back to eating the junk that made me lose control of my eating I would get fat again. And I'm certain that I would end up diabetic again if something else didn't kill me first. But I do wonder how long that would take. How much reversing have I done? How much healing have I done? I am active and healthy again. I know I'm less insulin resistant that I was 2 years ago. My BG response to the food I eat has normalized as I've gotten healthier. But was there permanent damage done by hammering my body with excessive sugar for those 50 years? If I went back to eating my old SAD diet, would I be diabetic again in 6 years, 6 months, or 6 weeks? I do wonder.

But this is one N=1 experiment that I don't plan on doing. Having diabetes sucks big time. I know. I've been there. If this WOE keeps me healthy -- and I think it will -- this is what I plan on doing for the rest of my days.

Last edited by khrussva : Tue, Apr-19-16 at 12:59.
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  #45   ^
Old Fri, Apr-22-16, 05:48
rider44 rider44 is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 27
 
Plan: based on the book below
Stats: 150/150/150 Male 178cm
BF:
Progress:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JEY100
Where are you looking for success stories?
http://www.dietdoctor.com/diabetes Dr Wortman had a few extra pounds, but probably not considered overweight. Same with Dr. Tim Noakes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fL5-9ZxamXc
It is estimated 20% of diabetics are "normal weight", so the success stories are out there, but that won't prove what will happen to YOU on a LCHF diet. Best to try a 20g total carb per day diet for a month, keep a complete record your fasting and PP BG each day, after a range of foods, and see if your BG drops to normal range.

http://forum.lowcarber.org/showthread.php?t=472842

http://thediabetessummit.com


Thank you very much, I have watched the youtube video, very helpful. Currently my daily carb consumption is around 200g, so probably what I may try is to cut it to half and see how my BG level may react. I am going to read
Dr Noakes' book: Real Meal Revolution.

Also thanks for the Summit link, a lot of reading load:-)
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