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  #31   ^
Old Tue, Mar-08-16, 08:53
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is offline
To Good Health!
Posts: 10,263
 
Plan: IF Fung/LC Westman/Primal
Stats: 222/171/169 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/25.3%/24%
Progress: 96%
Location: NC
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Fasting Clarity now available for Pre-Order.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/574...55248312546959/
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  #32   ^
Old Tue, Mar-08-16, 09:52
JeanM JeanM is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 203
 
Plan: LC
Stats: 170/142/130 Female 5'1.5
BF:
Progress: 70%
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Didn't Jimmy gain back the weight he lost while fasting?
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  #33   ^
Old Wed, Mar-09-16, 02:55
Ambulo's Avatar
Ambulo Ambulo is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 1,094
 
Plan: No GPS/OMAD (23:1)
Stats: 150/125/120 Female 64 inches
BF:
Progress: 83%
Location: the North, England
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Would The Obesity Code read well on the Kindle or does it contain lots of tables, diagrams and footnotes? Getting impatient waiting for my hardback, not out in UK before 31 March. Also Amazon UK wots not of Fasting Clarity.
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  #34   ^
Old Wed, Mar-09-16, 03:45
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is offline
To Good Health!
Posts: 10,263
 
Plan: IF Fung/LC Westman/Primal
Stats: 222/171/169 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/25.3%/24%
Progress: 96%
Location: NC
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Ambulo, surprisingly, since his blog is loaded with graphs and photos, his book has very few, and they are small simple sketches, e.g. Bar graph of response from proteins, two line graph of insulin response from lean and obese patients. I would think the print book translates well to Kindle, hopefully someone who bought that edition will also comment.

Jean, as for Jimmy gaining back the weight, I have lost track and rarely listen to those JimmyScopes, but I did see and talk with him about five weeks ago now...and he looked better than ever (I have talked with him in person a number of times over the past five years) As "woo" pointed out, his face is not so pasty nor skin loose, his waist seemed to me the smallest ever seen. I do not agree with his crazy long fast, nor doing one without exercise, but he looked healthy and certainly was his usual positive and energetic self.

Last edited by JEY100 : Wed, Mar-09-16 at 06:52.
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  #35   ^
Old Wed, Mar-09-16, 04:24
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is offline
To Good Health!
Posts: 10,263
 
Plan: IF Fung/LC Westman/Primal
Stats: 222/171/169 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/25.3%/24%
Progress: 96%
Location: NC
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NYT Well Blog:
Fasting Diets are Gaining Acceptance

http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2016/...ning-acceptance
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  #36   ^
Old Wed, Mar-09-16, 06:01
Abilene's Avatar
Abilene Abilene is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 52
 
Plan: Lowish carb/PPLP
Stats: 208/154/145 Female 64 inches
BF:
Progress: 86%
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I'm surprised Jimmy Moore is putting out a book since his experience at fasting appears to be a failure. He lost as much lean mass as fat and then gained all the weight back -- I wouldn't think that is a good idea.
I guess I'm surprised that Dr. Fung is putting his name on the book.
Or am I missing something?
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  #37   ^
Old Wed, Mar-09-16, 06:11
GRB5111's Avatar
GRB5111 GRB5111 is offline
Posts: 2,243
 
Plan: Ketogenic (LCHFKD)
Stats: 227/186/185 Male 6' 0"
BF:
Progress: 98%
Location: Herndon, VA
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Good article in a mainstream newspaper no less! IF is still viewed with skepticism and considered unhealthy by many who are used to eating 3 meals a day with snacks, as they've heard for many years. Interesting quote here:
Quote:
Dr. Varady found in her research that intermittent fasting was easiest when people ate a moderately high-fat diet and were allowed to consume up to 500 calories on their fasting days. In her studies, 10 percent to 20 percent of people usually find the diet too difficult and quickly stop. Those who stick with it typically adjust after a rocky first few weeks.

After reading this, the thing that's driven home is the fact that to fast effectively, there's an adaptation period that could serve to discourage many who are trying for the first time. There's a huge advantage for those eating LCHF, as fat adaptation is much easier and has likely already happened. It takes much less time to reach ketosis and burn fat without the prolonged sensation of hunger or cravings. It takes some time, and this quote from Mattson really captures it:
Quote:
But Dr. Mattson, who has been skipping meals for decades, said the adjustment to skipping breakfast and lunch was a lot like the change that occurs when a couch potato starts exercising.

“If you’ve been sedentary for years and then you go out and try to run five miles, you’re not going to feel very good until you get in shape,” he said. “ It’s not going to be a smooth transition right away. It takes two weeks to a month to adapt.”

My concern is how this statement may be interpreted by many:
Quote:
The 5:2 diet, for example, advocates eating without restrictions for five days and then consuming just 500 calories — roughly the equivalent of a light meal — on each of the other two days of the week. Another regimen, called alternate-day fasting, involves eating no more than 500 calories every other day.

Will people rationalize that they can restrict calories to 500 a day a couple times a week and go back to the cheese and raspberry danish breakfasts the rest of the time? Sound and healthy eating always promotes success in everything else!
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  #38   ^
Old Wed, Mar-09-16, 06:15
GRB5111's Avatar
GRB5111 GRB5111 is offline
Posts: 2,243
 
Plan: Ketogenic (LCHFKD)
Stats: 227/186/185 Male 6' 0"
BF:
Progress: 98%
Location: Herndon, VA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Abilene
I'm surprised Jimmy Moore is putting out a book since his experience at fasting appears to be a failure. He lost as much lean mass as fat and then gained all the weight back -- I wouldn't think that is a good idea.
I guess I'm surprised that Dr. Fung is putting his name on the book.
Or am I missing something?

I view this as a good team effort and the way I view Moore's recent experience with a long fast is that he usually does his N=1 research for any book he's writing. It will be interesting to read about long fasts in the book to see if there are any cautions or informational guidelines regarding this coming from Jimmy's experience. I don't view his recent long fast as a failure at all. He had some unexpected occurrences, but from what I've read, he indicated it was a good experience and surprisingly easy for most of the fasting period. While many have chimed in with critical comments and interpretations about the effectiveness of his fast, Jimmy tends to attract many critics, so I try and wade through those comments and get the facts from the source.
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  #39   ^
Old Wed, Mar-09-16, 06:22
bluesinger's Avatar
bluesinger bluesinger is offline
Maintaining
Posts: 3,490
 
Plan: LCHF
Stats: 170/139/130 Female 62 inches
BF:25%
Progress: 78%
Location: Nevada Desert, USA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ambulo
Would The Obesity Code read well on the Kindle or does it contain lots of tables, diagrams and footnotes? Getting impatient waiting for my hardback, not out in UK before 31 March. Also Amazon UK wots not of Fasting Clarity.
I ordered the print version and then the Kindle version so I could start. I still haven't got the print one, but the Kindle reads well. I have no complaints.
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  #40   ^
Old Wed, Mar-09-16, 10:58
thud123's Avatar
thud123 thud123 is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 4,687
 
Plan: ~25NC/IF
Stats: 342.2/196/000 Male 182cm
BF:
Progress: 43%
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GRB5111
...After reading this, the thing that's driven home is the fact that to fast effectively, there's an adaptation period that could serve to discourage many who are trying for the first time. There's a huge advantage for those eating LCHF, as fat adaptation is much easier and has likely already happened. It takes much less time to reach ketosis and burn fat without the prolonged sensation of hunger or cravings...


Boy this seems to be true for me. Started fast Sunday night and readings from Monday morning (baseline) and Tuesday morning (36hr or so in)

Base:
BG: 107 mg/dL
BP/Pulse: 99/68/68
Urine Ketones: Negative
Weight: 124.4 Kg

EOD 1 (36hrs)
BG: 106 mg/dL
BP/Pulse: 106/71/67
Urine Ketones: ~50 mg/dL
Weight: 121.4 Kg

We know that urinary ketones don't mean much other than if there are some in your urine, you are producing extra. But this 36hr period show that I stared cranking them out quickly. I must have been in ketoisis or very close on start day. There was no pain or struggle "getting back into ketosis" It feels to me like it's a sliding scale, not an off on switch.
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  #41   ^
Old Wed, Mar-09-16, 15:31
Squarecube's Avatar
Squarecube Squarecube is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 857
 
Plan: atkins/paleo/IF
Stats: 186.5/159.0/160 Male 5' 11"
BF:
Progress: 104%
Location: NYC
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GRB5111
Good article in a mainstream newspaper no less! IF is still viewed with skepticism and considered unhealthy by many who are used to eating 3 meals a day with snacks, as they've heard for many years. Interesting quote here:


Amazing article, there was barely a smear of low fat bias. Unbelievable for the NYTimes. Where's Jane Brody these days?

Quote:
There's a huge advantage for those eating LCHF, as fat adaptation is much easier and has likely already happened. It takes much less time to reach ketosis and burn fat without the prolonged sensation of hunger or cravings.


You're so right. I feel so lucky to have discovered Atkins first. With low carb, it's easy, easy, to learn what carbs are and to limit them without limiting fats. Adapting to Paleo (with dairy), was for me, just a baby step to eliminate certain fats, grains. I think it would have been too confusing if I wasn't already eating and trained in LCHF. And now with IF, it's no big deal, you're just adding a weekly session of boiling bones for two days! People all around me, well er, a few people are giving it a try and have said to me, I just can't do it! Well, I tell 'm , "get LCHF adapted first." Thank you Atkins!
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  #42   ^
Old Thu, Mar-10-16, 06:28
cotonpal's Avatar
cotonpal cotonpal is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 4,007
 
Plan: very low carb real food
Stats: 245/128/135 Female 62
BF:
Progress: 106%
Location: Vermont
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I am finally reading The Obesity Code. I didn't buy it at first because I am so often disappointed in the lc books I decide to buy. They tend to be just the same old same old. Dr Fung's book definitely isn't. He relies on logic and data to dispel the calories in calories out myth (that's as far as I have gotten so far). It is so clear, so well thought out and so well written. It is amazing to me how hard it is to dispel the cico myth. I find that I have to review the evidence that it doesn't work on a regular basis to prevent me from falling into the trap of believing that if I want to lose weight I have to reduce calories. Lately I have been eating a few hundred more calories per day than I used to. I don't weigh every day so when I finally stepped on the scale yesterday I expected to see that I had gained weight. No such thing. My weight remains steady. So much for cico.

In an interview on dietdoctor.com Dr Eades says that evidence doesn't convince people. For lchf to become accepted it needs not the evidence that it works, there's plenty of that already, but a good narrative. He says that he believes that paleo has become so successful because it has a good narrtive to support it, a good story about why it's a healthy way to eat. Certainly low fat had a good hook, eating fat makes you fat and clogs your arteries to boot. I think low carb still has a high hill to climb before it is accepted but Dr Fung has done a masterful job, as far as I can tell at this point in my reading, to at least explain away cico.

Jean
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  #43   ^
Old Thu, Mar-10-16, 07:02
cotonpal's Avatar
cotonpal cotonpal is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 4,007
 
Plan: very low carb real food
Stats: 245/128/135 Female 62
BF:
Progress: 106%
Location: Vermont
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Great new blog post on fasting and autophagy:

https://intensivedietarymanagement....agy-fasting-25/

Jean
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  #44   ^
Old Thu, Mar-10-16, 07:21
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is online now
Senior Member
Posts: 12,697
 
Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches
BF:
Progress: 104%
Location: Ontario
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Abilene
I'm surprised Jimmy Moore is putting out a book since his experience at fasting appears to be a failure. He lost as much lean mass as fat and then gained all the weight back -- I wouldn't think that is a good idea.
I guess I'm surprised that Dr. Fung is putting his name on the book.
Or am I missing something?



Losing as much "lean mass" as fat mass isn't really a failure, so much as it's the expected result. Dexa doesn't measure protein content of the tissues, it just lumps fat and lean into two groups. So you really can't say from a Dexa how much the loss of lean mass is just the normal reduction in water weight.

Even if the lean mass is assumed to be lost in the usual ratio you'd find it in in muscle or lean organs--three grams of water per gram of protein means that each gram of lean mass lost would amount to one calorie per gram of lean mass (four grams of lean mass equals three grams of water plus one of protein, equals four calories). So since fat is 9 calories per gram, a 50:50 fat:lean ratio lost gives a 9:1 ratio of calories lost as fat vs protein during the fast. Some people can hope for a better ratio of fat to lean lost over an extended water fast--but for most people, counting on this is unrealistic. It's already very much skewed towards burning fat for energy.

I think Jimmy is probably disappointed about the results of the refeed part of his study--obviously maintenance is what he needs to work on, rather than weight-loss. I think what can be improved with the refeed is the ratio of lean mass to fat mass gained--unlike weight loss during the fast, this ratio is more amenable to manipulation through working out, perhaps increasing the protein in the diet, etc. A prolonged fast is a protein depleting method of weightloss, so a somewhat higher ratio of protein in the refeed diet, at least for a couple of weeks or so, might be something a person could benefit from. Coming out of a fast, you've got all those anabolic adaptations that Dr. Fung has written about, a person can often achieve a positive nitrogen balance while eating less protein than they would have needed just to maintain their lean mass previous to the fast--but that doesn't mean that they can't benefit from a little extra protein after the fast. In a similar vein--people on steroids don't have a higher protein requirement, it will actually take less dietary protein for them to maintain their lean mass, but it may take more than their usual protein intake for them to get the full benefit of muscle growth.

Jimmy says he just ate normal in February. So what does that mean? During his one year nutritional ketosis experiment, he found that about 80 grams of protein a day, 100 grams on days he worked out, along with 30 grams of total, not net, carbs, kept him in ketosis and losing weight. If you look at Jimmy's lean loss during the fast, it's about 10 pounds over 30 days, so a third of a pound per day. That's about 151 grams, divide by four for protein grams--about 37.5 grams of protein lost per day during the fast.

If you assume these are the protein numbers--this is a pretty unlikely scenario. Protein oxidation doesn't generally go down when you eat protein, it goes up. If Jimmy ate 80 grams of protein during the refeed, and regained 10 pounds of lean mass, 2.5 pounds of it protein, then his protein oxidation rate over the refeed would have had to be 42.5 grams a day--a scant 5 grams a day over what it was during the fast. Which sort of seems unlikely. So--maybe Jimmy is eating more protein than he thinks he is, I know from experience that if you're not weighing out every morsel, keeping fat at 85 percent of calories becomes very difficult. The other possibility is that using Dexa as a measure of lean mass is questionable. A four pound variation in water weight that has little to do with body protein stores is fairly normal. The old water fasting studies, where obese subjects experienced a decrease in protein oxidation down to 20 grams or so a day involved nitrogen balance studies, not perfect, but at least directly related to protein.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/art...t00645-0194.pdf

This is just a ten day study, comparing low fat and ketogenic 800 calorie diets vs fasting.

Quote:
During starvation, mean rate
of weight loss was 750.7+50.9 g/day, the composition
(percentage) being water 60.9, fat 32.4, protein 6.7.


What if somebody did a before and after Dexa scan? They'd get a 2:1 ratio of lean to fat being lost. Meanwhile, if you look at fat vs protein--they're burning 291 calories as fat per 26.8 calories as protein. They'd have started with replete glycogen stores, so that changes things a little, but not much averaged over 10 days. Pretty close to that 9:1 fat: protein calorie ratio I calculated for Jimmy--but with a wildly different fat:"lean" ratio of weight loss.
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  #45   ^
Old Thu, Mar-10-16, 07:44
GRB5111's Avatar
GRB5111 GRB5111 is offline
Posts: 2,243
 
Plan: Ketogenic (LCHFKD)
Stats: 227/186/185 Male 6' 0"
BF:
Progress: 98%
Location: Herndon, VA
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teaser - very thorough and informative post! You've touched on some important thought provoking aspects that need to be considered regarding Jimmy Moore's longer-term fasting experience. While we each experience subtle differences in our response to fasting, there is still much to learn to optimize this process. Wish we had access to a more accurate measurement to better distinguish fat from lean mass (muscle) loss for one.
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