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  #1   ^
Old Tue, Feb-16-16, 11:41
NEMarvin's Avatar
NEMarvin NEMarvin is offline
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Posts: 836
 
Plan: keto
Stats: 410/298.6/225 Male 74 inches
BF:40/35%/17%
Progress: 60%
Location: Lincoln, NE
Default Morning FBG Reading my highest of the day

I think that there have been a number of threads that have talked about this, but I'm still not wrapping my head round the idea of Physiological IR, and I thought I understood Dawn Phenomenon, but still not sure I do.

I'm currently eating LCHF, and have been for 5 weeks. For the last 4 weeks, I've been doing ADF, with 23 hour fasts the norm. I have had a couple of higher carb meals in that time, but not for several weeks now.

My fasting BG first thing in the morning is usually my highest reading of the day. It's usually in the neighborhood of 105-115, and it usually trickles down the rest of the day. 30 minute PP readings (after breakfast) are usually in the same vicinity, but by 2 hours PP, I'm down below the morning FBG.

If I understand the way this works, while the morning FBG might trigger a concern from my doctor, when I get retested in 5 months, and as long as my readings continue as such, my A1C should be reasonable. For instance, if my "average" reading is 100, let's say, my A1C should be about 5.1 or so.

I've been led to believe that we want to avoid the large swings in variation in our readings, and that ultimately, that a morning reading of above 100 is not in and of itself a problem. Or am I wrong about that?
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  #2   ^
Old Tue, Feb-16-16, 12:00
Nancy LC's Avatar
Nancy LC Nancy LC is offline
Experimenter
Posts: 45,261
 
Plan: Paleo 99.5%
Stats: 210/170/160 Female 67.5"
BF:
Progress: 80%
Location: San Diego, CA
Default

You're right. For someone on LC a FBG of 100-110 or so is perfectly normal. It just means you haven't eaten yet. After you eat, it'll probably drop below 100.

You can buy cheap A1C tests at Walmart if you want an interim peek at your #. Although, don't bother if it hasn't been 3 months. Red blood cells only turn over about every 90 days.
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  #3   ^
Old Tue, Feb-16-16, 12:21
khrussva's Avatar
khrussva khrussva is offline
Posts: 6,732
 
Plan: My own - < 30 net carbs
Stats: 440/205/210 Male 5' 11"
BF:Energy Unleashed
Progress: 102%
Location: Central Virginia - USA
Default

I didn't test my BG for the longest of times. When I did start I was at your current weight and I had similar FBG readings (100 to 110 range). That was the same FBG that I'd gotten at the doctor's office a few weeks into the diet and when I was first diagnosed as diabetic. I expected better. That is when I did my first few IFs. I also worked on not snacking after dinner - building in a 12 hour fast between dinner and breakfast most days. I was also walking regularly (until I broke my foot in Dec 2014). Within a month or two my FBG dropped significantly and is now typically in the lower 80's. It does still bounce around... as low as the mid 60's and as high as the mid 90's. I've seen it go up after a long walk. My pre-dinner BG is often lower than my FBG. I tried to find reason in it and failed. I do credit the fasts and exercise with bringing my average FBG down - but why if fluctuates so much is anyone's guess.

The next A1C lab I had done was about 3 months after I started testing my BG. My BG the day of my labs was 85. My A1C was 5.3. I was hoping for a little better, but I can't complain. It was 6.7 the year before and that included 5 weeks of eating low carb.

These days my FBG is mostly in the upper 70's or lower 80's. So it really hasn't changed much in the past year. What has changed is my postprandial readings. A year ago I tested my reaction to several LC dinners, taking a pre-meal reading and 4 post meal readings and 30 minute intervals. A 10 or 15 net carb dinner would often push my BG well above 140 for a spell, returning to near 100 by the end of the 2 hour period after the meal. These days, such a meal will have little effect on my BG. I've had some 20 to 25 net carb meals recently where my pre-meal BG was in the 80's and the meal did not raise my BG above 100 in the post-prandial tests. I've clearly made great strides with the insulin resistance. I have another A1C scheduled for next month and I'm looking forward to seeing the results.

Last edited by khrussva : Tue, Feb-16-16 at 12:58.
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  #4   ^
Old Tue, Feb-16-16, 12:58
Nancy LC's Avatar
Nancy LC Nancy LC is offline
Experimenter
Posts: 45,261
 
Plan: Paleo 99.5%
Stats: 210/170/160 Female 67.5"
BF:
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Location: San Diego, CA
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Ah yes, I should mention I did start seeing really low FBG numbers when I started curtailing my protein intake. Nothing like a really high protein supper to make that number skyrocket.
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  #5   ^
Old Tue, Feb-16-16, 14:30
NEMarvin's Avatar
NEMarvin NEMarvin is offline
Boldly going...
Posts: 836
 
Plan: keto
Stats: 410/298.6/225 Male 74 inches
BF:40/35%/17%
Progress: 60%
Location: Lincoln, NE
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nancy LC
You're right. For someone on LC a FBG of 100-110 or so is perfectly normal. It just means you haven't eaten yet. After you eat, it'll probably drop below 100.

You can buy cheap A1C tests at Walmart if you want an interim peek at your #. Although, don't bother if it hasn't been 3 months. Red blood cells only turn over about every 90 days.


Thanks. That's what I seem to take away from other threads I've read. I don't really care what my interim reading is; I can't see it going up from what it's been. I only see down as an option.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nancy LC
Ah yes, I should mention I did start seeing really low FBG numbers when I started curtailing my protein intake. Nothing like a really high protein supper to make that number skyrocket.


So...when you say "high protein supper" exactly how much protein (or how much meat) are you saying? I know Dr. Atkins had thrown out the number of anything more than 7 oz of meat raising blood sugar.
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  #6   ^
Old Tue, Feb-16-16, 14:37
NEMarvin's Avatar
NEMarvin NEMarvin is offline
Boldly going...
Posts: 836
 
Plan: keto
Stats: 410/298.6/225 Male 74 inches
BF:40/35%/17%
Progress: 60%
Location: Lincoln, NE
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by khrussva
I didn't test my BG for the longest of times. When I did start I was at your current weight and I had similar FBG readings (100 to 110 range). That was the same FBG that I'd gotten at the doctor's office a few weeks into the diet and when I was first diagnosed as diabetic. I expected better. That is when I did my first few IFs. I also worked on not snacking after dinner - building in a 12 hour fast between dinner and breakfast most days. I was also walking regularly (until I broke my foot in Dec 2014). Within a month or two my FBG dropped significantly and is now typically in the lower 80's. It does still bounce around... as low as the mid 60's and as high as the mid 90's. I've seen it go up after a long walk. My pre-dinner BG is often lower than my FBG. I tried to find reason in it and failed. I do credit the fasts and exercise with bringing my average FBG down - but why if fluctuates so much is anyone's guess.

The next A1C lab I had done was about 3 months after I started testing my BG. My BG the day of my labs was 85. My A1C was 5.3. I was hoping for a little better, but I can't complain. It was 6.7 the year before and that included 5 weeks of eating low carb.

These days my FBG is mostly in the upper 70's or lower 80's. So it really hasn't changed much in the past year. What has changed is my postprandial readings. A year ago I tested my reaction to several LC dinners, taking a pre-meal reading and 4 post meal readings and 30 minute intervals. A 10 or 15 net carb dinner would often push my BG well above 140 for a spell, returning to near 100 by the end of the 2 hour period after the meal. These days, such a meal will have little effect on my BG. I've had some 20 to 25 net carb meals recently where my pre-meal BG was in the 80's and the meal did not raise my BG above 100 in the post-prandial tests. I've clearly made great strides with the insulin resistance. I have another A1C scheduled for next month and I'm looking forward to seeing the results.


Thanks Ken. I'm eating very low carb right now, probably less than 20 most days, and I really am not seeing any PP rise at all . From what I understand in reading Dr Bernstein and Jenny Ruhl (Blood Sugar 101), that is actually ideal...that you don't want to see the variations at all. Jenny says anything over 140 is dangerous to our bodies.

From that standpoint, my thoughts are taken to a criticism I've read of A1c tests, in that they really don't measure the extremes, but only measure the average. So, theoretically, I could have a range of 90-110 of my BG readings, and I would have an average of 100. Yet, someone could have a range of 70-160, and have the same average of 100 (since they may not be in those higher ranges very often). They may come back with the same A1c score, but clearly the one who's top number never exceeded 110 would be much healthier. Not sure that's actually how it works, but as others have said, the A1c is flawed, but probably the best thing we have.
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  #7   ^
Old Tue, Feb-16-16, 14:38
Abilene's Avatar
Abilene Abilene is offline
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Posts: 52
 
Plan: Lowish carb/PPLP
Stats: 208/154/145 Female 64 inches
BF:
Progress: 86%
Default

You guys are giving me hope. I just started on Dr. Jason Fung's protocol last week -- a combination of LC and fasting. I halved my insulin so BGs are running higher than I am accustomed to (120-150), but am hopeful they will drop quickly.
Khrussva -- your story is incredible, thank you for sharing.
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  #8   ^
Old Tue, Feb-16-16, 15:05
Nancy LC's Avatar
Nancy LC Nancy LC is offline
Experimenter
Posts: 45,261
 
Plan: Paleo 99.5%
Stats: 210/170/160 Female 67.5"
BF:
Progress: 80%
Location: San Diego, CA
Default

I got my lowest BG readings when I kept my protein around 60-70g a day but in general I tried to keep it 80g a day or under.

For me it worked to eat a lot of LC veggies and keep my net carbs 30 or less (usually around 20), but you can eat a lot of veggies and still get that.

I should repeat that experiment.

I didn't fast though. I hate fasting. It is a very uncomfortable thing for me.
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  #9   ^
Old Thu, Feb-18-16, 04:24
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is offline
To Good Health!
Posts: 10,263
 
Plan: IF Fung/LC Westman/Primal
Stats: 222/171/169 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/25.3%/24%
Progress: 96%
Location: NC
Default

Dr Fung's recent explanation of the Dawn Phenomenon was pretty good, clearer than others I've read: https://intensivedietarymanagement....enomenon-t2d-8/
Dr Fung's new book recommends Protein to be 20-30% of total calories, which you could vary by day? If eating only dinner, fewer grams of protein. An Eating day gives you more, but not a huge amount at any one meal seems a reasonable approach.
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  #10   ^
Old Tue, Mar-01-16, 07:13
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is offline
To Good Health!
Posts: 10,263
 
Plan: IF Fung/LC Westman/Primal
Stats: 222/171/169 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/25.3%/24%
Progress: 96%
Location: NC
Default

Marty Kendell has a good success story using fasting to reduce Dawn Phenomenon. Can't get his page to open right now, but this is what I read on feed:
ANTONIO C. MARTINEZ IIíS TYPE 2 DIABETES REVERSAL
FEBRUARY 28, 2016 MARTY KENDALL
Website is OptimizingNutrition.
And DietDoctor: http://www.dietdoctor.com/antonio-c...abetes-reversal
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  #11   ^
Old Tue, Mar-01-16, 08:26
GRB5111's Avatar
GRB5111 GRB5111 is offline
Posts: 2,243
 
Plan: Ketogenic (LCHFKD)
Stats: 227/186/185 Male 6' 0"
BF:
Progress: 98%
Location: Herndon, VA
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Very informative story about Antonio, and here's hoping that as an attorney involved in health care issues and law, his first-hand experience will have some effect on policy at some point.

I'm intrigued by the Glucose:Ketone Index (GKI) as well. Seyfried seems to have a very useful metric for insulin resistance and the comment about not needing ketones to be high is very good advice as well. Thanks for the link, Janet!
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  #12   ^
Old Tue, Jun-14-16, 09:21
thomas1951 thomas1951 is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 37
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 298/294/175 Male 70'
BF:
Progress:
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Once again I'm confused,

This morning I take my BG at 8:30 and it was 130,so I took my 100 unis of Novolin N. I did not eat breakfast and took my BG again at 11:30 and it was 148 - Why did my BG increase,any ideas?
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  #13   ^
Old Tue, Jun-14-16, 09:40
Nancy LC's Avatar
Nancy LC Nancy LC is offline
Experimenter
Posts: 45,261
 
Plan: Paleo 99.5%
Stats: 210/170/160 Female 67.5"
BF:
Progress: 80%
Location: San Diego, CA
Default

Did you read this thread? I think there are some pretty good ideas here. Maybe review them and see if any of the suggestions help. In particular, read the article Janet posted. It specifically addresses the issue.

Last edited by Nancy LC : Tue, Jun-14-16 at 09:48.
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  #14   ^
Old Wed, Jun-15-16, 04:35
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is offline
To Good Health!
Posts: 10,263
 
Plan: IF Fung/LC Westman/Primal
Stats: 222/171/169 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/25.3%/24%
Progress: 96%
Location: NC
Default

Hi Thomas,
Hope you are doing well, I'm in your state this week. The ocean water is amazingly warm.

That seems like a question for your doctor, or maybe someone here who takes injectable insulin can suggest why it might go up.
Did that also happen when not LC or fasting?
Also, you may wish to look at the BG levels Dr Fung allows as the patients begin to reduce insulin. You can find it in the "what to expect" sheet here. https://web.archive.org/web/2014090...ient-resources/
conversion charts for Canadian to American BG readings are easily found on line.

Last edited by JEY100 : Wed, Jun-15-16 at 04:44.
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  #15   ^
Old Wed, Jun-15-16, 05:27
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is offline
To Good Health!
Posts: 10,263
 
Plan: IF Fung/LC Westman/Primal
Stats: 222/171/169 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/25.3%/24%
Progress: 96%
Location: NC
Default

Brand new post on DietDoctor, just found on news feed...
THe Dawn PHenomenon. Written by Dr Fung so similar to the link above to his blog:

http://www.dietdoctor.com/the-dawn-phenomenon
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