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  #16   ^
Old Sat, Feb-13-16, 18:26
Groovegirl's Avatar
Groovegirl Groovegirl is offline
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Posts: 286
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 171/151/143 Female 68 inches
BF:
Progress: 71%
Location: Grove City, Ohio
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So is eggs and meat the same as 0 carb? Just curious,
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  #17   ^
Old Sat, Feb-13-16, 19:22
MickiSue MickiSue is offline
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Posts: 8,006
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 189/148.6/145 Female 5' 5"
BF:36%/28%/25%
Progress: 92%
Location: Twin Cities, MN
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Eggs and meat are not 100% 0 carb, because there is a trace amount of carb in egg yolks. But as close as makes no difference, if you are not eating any veggies or fruit.
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  #18   ^
Old Sat, Feb-13-16, 19:30
NEMarvin's Avatar
NEMarvin NEMarvin is online now
Boldly going...
Posts: 823
 
Plan: keto
Stats: 410/317/225 Male 74 inches
BF:40/35%/17%
Progress: 50%
Location: Lincoln, NE
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Since originally posting I've been following a couple of groups. At their very baseline they'll tell you to eat meat and drink water. Some add eggs, dairy. Most will tell you if it doesn't derail you, you can do it.
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  #19   ^
Old Sun, Feb-14-16, 04:07
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is online now
To Good Health!
Posts: 9,900
 
Plan: IF Fung/LC Westman/Primal
Stats: 222/171/169 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/25.3%/24%
Progress: 96%
Location: NC
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Groovegirl
So is eggs and meat the same as 0 carb? Just curious,

Eggs are "optional". If I were try ZeroCarb, I would follow Amber's guidelines, http://www.empiri.ca/p/eat-meat-not...mostly-fat.html
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  #20   ^
Old Sun, Feb-14-16, 05:35
M Levac M Levac is offline
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Posts: 6,328
 
Plan: VLC, mostly meat
Stats: 202/200/165 Male 5' 7"
BF:
Progress: 5%
Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
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Janet, that's a pretty good guide, but I have one gripe from the FAQ, this here:
Quote:
Q. Do I need to eat raw meat?

A. No.

Technically, that's not true. You need to eat some raw meat, but the word raw has a special meaning in this context. It doesn't mean the entire piece of meat must be raw. Instead, it means if it's cooked, it must not be overcooked. Some of it must still be uncooked, so medium-rare is just fine, but well-done isn't fine. It's not that important that all meat you eat conforms to this principle, but it's important that some of it conforms. How you figure out the proportions is up to you. For example, I'll eat a few bites of a fresh piece of meat before I cook it, cook the rest and eat that too. While other times I'll just pop a frozen piece of pork in the pan and cook it at low heat almost to well-done and eat that. If you want to eat the entire piece of meat raw, that's just fine too. Otherwise, it's a solid guide.
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  #21   ^
Old Sun, Feb-14-16, 07:14
NEMarvin's Avatar
NEMarvin NEMarvin is online now
Boldly going...
Posts: 823
 
Plan: keto
Stats: 410/317/225 Male 74 inches
BF:40/35%/17%
Progress: 50%
Location: Lincoln, NE
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M Levac
Janet, that's a pretty good guide, but I have one gripe from the FAQ, this here:

Technically, that's not true. You need to eat some raw meat, but the word raw has a special meaning in this context. It doesn't mean the entire piece of meat must be raw. Instead, it means if it's cooked, it must not be overcooked. Some of it must still be uncooked, so medium-rare is just fine, but well-done isn't fine. It's not that important that all meat you eat conforms to this principle, but it's important that some of it conforms.


M Levac,
You say that with some seeming authority. Why do you think that is?
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  #22   ^
Old Sun, Feb-14-16, 08:16
M Levac M Levac is offline
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Posts: 6,328
 
Plan: VLC, mostly meat
Stats: 202/200/165 Male 5' 7"
BF:
Progress: 5%
Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NEMarvin
M Levac,
You say that with some seeming authority. Why do you think that is?

I don't know, I don't appear that way to myself. I thought I made a reasonable argument about cooking. If you want to know what I base my opinion on, that's a different story. Start with the Bellevue all-meat experiment, and just ask yourself if it supports cooking meat well-done or not. If that's not enough, go with Pottenger's cats and see if that supports cooking meat well-done. If that's still not enough, try the Expensive Tissue Hypothesis and see if that does the trick. It's much more complicated with that last one but when all pertinent info is taken together, you get a solid base for a reasonable conclusion.
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  #23   ^
Old Sun, Feb-14-16, 18:54
NEMarvin's Avatar
NEMarvin NEMarvin is online now
Boldly going...
Posts: 823
 
Plan: keto
Stats: 410/317/225 Male 74 inches
BF:40/35%/17%
Progress: 50%
Location: Lincoln, NE
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I'm sorry, may I have a layman' level of answer? I'm afraid your knowledge is way above me. Why raw for zero carb (or anything else for that matter)?
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  #24   ^
Old Sun, Feb-14-16, 20:10
Meme#1's Avatar
Meme#1 Meme#1 is online now
Posts: 8,334
 
Plan: Atkins DANDR
Stats: 210/183/160 Female 5'4"
BF:
Progress: 54%
Location: Texas
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Cooking meat to a certain level of heat kills worms and ameba.
I caught an ameba from pork once, you do not want that....
All animals have worms, they are born with them. Some naturally have more such as goats. I've read that they are some of the most wormy of all.
Some people hunt and eat wild caught pigs, deer, elk and even bear and fish. Some of them have heavy consequences if not cooked to proper temp.
I don't see how there would be a carb count from simply cooking the meat.
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  #25   ^
Old Sun, Feb-14-16, 21:08
MickiSue MickiSue is offline
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Posts: 8,006
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 189/148.6/145 Female 5' 5"
BF:36%/28%/25%
Progress: 92%
Location: Twin Cities, MN
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It's not about carbs. It's about killing nutrients.
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  #26   ^
Old Sun, Feb-14-16, 21:11
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Nicekitty Nicekitty is offline
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Posts: 463
 
Plan: Banting
Stats: 150/139/132 Female 5'7"
BF:
Progress: 61%
Location: PNW
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I see a lot of parallels with the zero-carb diet my dog is on, usually referred to as raw feeding.

It's very important with his diet that the meat is raw, because many nutrients are destroyed by cooking (also dogs do not have appear to have evolved to accept the advanced glycation end products from cooking, that humans have, and can have a lot of allergies to cooked proteins). Healthy dogs can deal with any bacteria etc... found in properly raised or wild meat, I'd think that could very well be the case with humans also. CAFO raised meat is more likely to cause problems with humans (raw).

It's also very important that his diet includes a lot of organs, connective tissues, and also bone, because these supply nutrients that you can't get through muscle meat alone. I would think that would also hold true for humans. I throw in eggs, tripe, seafood, etc...the more variety, the better.

My dog does fantastic on this diet, I don't think it's a stretch to think that humans could, we are basically carnivores....Possible some humans (more northern ancestry) would do much better than others due to genetic adaptions.

I'm very intrigued by the idea, but I wouldn't have the stomach to eat all the organs etc...that I think would be critical, heck I can't even eat them cooked and doused with seasonings.
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  #27   ^
Old Mon, Feb-15-16, 04:35
M Levac M Levac is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 6,328
 
Plan: VLC, mostly meat
Stats: 202/200/165 Male 5' 7"
BF:
Progress: 5%
Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NEMarvin
I'm sorry, may I have a layman' level of answer? I'm afraid your knowledge is way above me. Why raw for zero carb (or anything else for that matter)?

I'm not that knowledgeable, I'm just some guy.

Cooking vs raw is a point of contention even with ZC proponents. I am a ZC proponent and I have discussed this topic many times before. As far as I'm aware, there is no definite answer, so when we ask "Do I need to eat raw meat?", a simple yes/no answer just won't do. I mean, maybe there is a definite answer, but personally I haven't found it, so I go with the safe bet instead.

Anyways, like previous posters said, cooking destroys nutrients, and that's the safe bet I go with. With Pottenger's cats for example, taurine is destroyed by cooking, cats can't synthesize it, so cats need the meat raw. Humans can synthesize taurine so that's not much of a problem. The point is, the principle that cooking destroys nutrients is established. From there, without even knowing which nutrient is destroyed by cooking, we can still make a reasonable decision. Do I eat all my meat raw, all the time, every time, forever? I could, but maybe I don't have to. Maybe I can eat some of it cooked, even some of it cooked thoroughly. Can I eat all my meat cooked thoroughly, all the time, every time, forever? No, I don't think that's a good idea, because cooking destroys nutrients. So, a reasonable decision would be something like what I said before. I don't have to eat raw meat all the time, but I can't eat thoroughly cooked meat all the time either, something in-between should be just fine.

I didn't read much about cooking vs raw, but the little I did read still gave me enough to decide. For example, the Bellevue all-meat experiment (I posted a link a few posts earlier) was done on humans, so we can rely on it and apply it to ourselves directly, at least more directly than cats or mice experiments. In that experiment, they didn't experiment with cooking vs raw specifically, but they did mention something about cooking vs raw to describe the diet. The subjects ate both cooked and raw, and they were just fine. Can we conclude anything about cooked vs raw specifically? No, I don't think we can, but I think we can still conclude that if we did the same as they did, then we'd probably be just fine too. In that paper I linked, there's a hint about a specific benefit of eating raw meat:
Quote:
Thomas (4) found no rickets or scurvy among the Greenland Eskimos, but a large incidence of these diseases among the Labrador Eskimos who live mostly on preserved food including dried potatoes, flour, canned foods, and cereals. Stefansson (7) reported three patients with scurvy on his last expedition, one of whom was our subject, Andersen. These cases were caused by eating canned foods with only a small amount of cooked meat, and were cured by eating raw meat.

It's just a hint because it's just an anecdote. But it agrees with the principle that cooking destroys nutrients.

As for your "or anything else for that matter", we're talking about cooking broccoli or potatoes or something like that, right? Well, just like it does with meat, cooking destroys nutrients in plants. But cooking also destroys plant fiber (which we can't digest otherwise), and this then allows the nutrients contained therein to be available to us. So it simultaneously makes plants both more and less nutritious. Personally, I think plants are not food for humans, so I'm not concerned with finding out the truth here, so I didn't look that hard for information about it, so my opinion on this doesn't really matter.

I'd also like to address what Meme#1 said. Specifically that animals have worms, their meat has worms, cooking destroys those and destroys ameba. I agree. On the other hand, I also think that if we assume we're fully adapted to eat meat, and especially raw meat, then it follows that we should also be adapted to deal with whatever is in that meat normally. On the third hand, I don't really like to find something wrong with my meat, so I don't eat that particular piece of meat, I'll eat another piece that looks right, that looks like it came from a healthy animal. I can remember only one time when I was eating a nice juicy pork chop cooked to perfection and something was just wrong when I was cutting it up in my plate. Well, that was it for that pork chop, it went straight in the garbage. I took another pork chop and that one was fine so I ate that one. So I guess here it's about how good the meat is, how healthy the animal is, how clean the butcher's tools are, how clean the slaughterhouse's tools are, how well the animals were fed, etc. If everything's good at every step, the meat is good it's not infected or anything, then it's just a matter of personal taste.
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  #28   ^
Old Mon, Feb-15-16, 05:26
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is offline
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Posts: 11,940
 
Plan: ketosis/IF
Stats: 190/158/154 Male 67inches
BF:
Progress: 89%
Location: Ontario
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When it comes to trichinosis, a pig that eats its natural diet, which includes some scavenged dead animals, is more of a risk than conventionally raised pork.

Quote:
Between 2002 and 2007, 11 cases were reported to CDC each year on average in the United States;[29] these were mostly the result of eating undercooked game, bear meat, or home-reared pigs. It is common in developing countries where meat fed to pigs is raw or undercooked, but many cases also come from developed countries in Europe and North America,[clarification needed] where raw or undercooked pork and wild game may be consumed as delicacies


That's wikipedia on trichinosis, so even undercooked pork is less risky than it was in the past. I don't eat pork rare--but I take advantage of not having to cook conventional pork well-done.
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  #29   ^
Old Mon, Feb-15-16, 07:14
kirkor kirkor is offline
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Posts: 185
 
Plan: IF dairy-free keto ish
Stats: 175/175/170 Male 71
BF:
Progress: 0%
Location: San Diego, CA
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Principia Carnivora is a Facebook group that is a bit more open than the ZIOH crew, if you want to check out that community. Lots of good articles and comments.
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  #30   ^
Old Mon, Feb-15-16, 07:20
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CallmeAnn CallmeAnn is offline
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Posts: 1,629
 
Plan: HFLC/IF
Stats: 218/193.8/135 Female 5'4"
BF:?/44%?/?
Progress: 29%
Location: Houston area
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NEMarvin
I do believe they don't have all of the information. But it seems as though a lot of how Dr. Fung shrugs off that concern is more anecdotal than scientific. I have not seen any actual studies referenced on his blog that show that Fasting doesn't reduce our metabolism. He usually responds to that question, it seems, with more anecdotal evidence, particularly the "caveman" example of, if a caveman doesn't have food to eat for a day or two, would his metabolism just shutdown, and when he puts it that way, it sounds like a ludicrous supposition, but I don't see research on his blog that actually supports that. Granted, I haven't watched all of the videos because of the length (and like others, would prefer to read rather than watch videos), but I think that's a good homework exercise for me.


I have only read one page of Dr. Fung's blog because I am currently engrossed in Dr. B's DS book but Fung's post involved a graph about the body breaking down lean mass or not doing so, in response to concern over starvation mode. In the comments, some factual mistakes were pointed out and he was very dismissive. I need to read more of his stuff before I decide he is sloppy with his facts but it was not a good first impression.
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