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  #1   ^
Old Tue, Nov-17-15, 04:28
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is offline
To Good Health!
Posts: 8,666
 
Plan: IF Fung/LC Westman/Primal
Stats: 220/170/165 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/25.3%/24%
Progress: 91%
Location: NC
Default TuitNutrition, Amy Berger, on The Truth about Weight Loss

Amy Berger has posted the first part of a short series on the Truth about Weight Loss, particularly with the pre/post-menopausal woman in mind.
Her blog is witty and smart ( though her writing has a tendency to go on and on). I'll post the next part when available. This section points out common patterns of weight loss, to be followed by several answers to the question, Why am I not losing weight on a low-carb diet? She'll also explore logical explanations for day-to-day multi-pound fluctuations in scale weight.


http://www.tuitnutrition.com/2015/1...-loss.html#more,

It starts...

Quote:
Much to the detriment of my sanity—and several of my brain cells—I’ve been lurking on weight loss forums, keto forums, LCHF sites, various Facebook groups, and other places where many participants are aiming for weight loss. I’ve been reading the comments, and…well, it’s a jungle out there, folks. A jungle of wishful thinking, unrealistic expectations, and a somewhat alarming degree of ignorance about how the human body works. This is not entirely surprising, though, and I can’t be too hard on people for their pie-in-the-sky notions about how weight loss happens. After all, when you read a “Friday Success Story” on Mark’s Daily Apple, featuring a 25-year old guy who woke up one day, realized the steady diet of pizza, beer, and Chinese takeout he’d been following since freshman year of college had landed him 40 pounds heavier, with heartburn, acne, and no libido, and he stumbles upon The Primal Blueprint and summarily loses those 40 pounds in about three months—even while still enjoying wine and a weekly “treat meal,” it’s very easy to be hypnotized into thinking it’s this quick & easy for everyone. And if it’s not this quick & easy for you, then you’re “doing it wrong.” If every pound—every ounce—is a struggle, even when you’re really, truly “doing everything right,” then it’s perfectly natural to feel like a failure. To feel demoralized. And if your nutritionist cares about you and wants to see you reach your goals, it’s perfectly natural for me him or her to be demoralized, too. I have been through this with several clients—to the point that I almost decided to quit altogether. However, after giving it a lot of thought, and racking my brain to think of what I could be doing differently to help these people, and why good diet recommendations and supplements proven to be effective weren’t working, here’s what I’ve realized:

The clients who fit this scenario—doing “everything right,” but not losing weight—have all been women. All of them. Most of them have been peri- or post-menopausal women, but some have been younger, like in their thirties. More importantly, all of them—all of them—were transitioning to a Paleo or LCHF diet after many years—sometimes decades—of undereating, whether intentionally or unintentionally. Specifically, they have been undereating fat and protein. Whether it’s women’s fashion magazines, mainstream news outlets, or even their doctors, something made these women so terrified to put actual foodstuffs into their bodies, that they have been subsisting, long-term, on 800-1200 calories per day, largely of non-fat and low-fat “edible food-like substances.” (Cereal, skim milk, fat-free yogurt, skinless chicken breasts, granola bars…you know the drill.)

The end result of this is that, sadly, these women’s resting metabolic rates are in the toilet. Through so many years of what basically amounts to starvation, they have likely lost a great deal of muscle, and certainly a significant amount of bone mass. (The physiology of fasting is different. Full-on fasting is not the same, metabolically speaking, as a very low-calorie diet, and the effects on “muscle sparing” are different . My posts are always already too long, so I’m gonna have to skip the details on this for now.)

This brings us to two issues:
How weight loss happens in the body
Why someone might not be losing weight, even on a well-planned Paleo, LCHF, or ketogenic diet

We’ll address the first issue here, and we’ll tackle the second one in a separate post. (Maybe two or three separate posts, as I’ve already started jotting down notes, and there’s a lot to cover. Not as much as for insulin, though, thank goodness!)
Article continues with graphs, etc.

Last edited by JEY100 : Tue, Nov-17-15 at 05:26.
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  #2   ^
Old Tue, Nov-17-15, 06:16
Merpig's Avatar
Merpig Merpig is offline
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Posts: 5,971
 
Plan: IF/Fung IDM/Potato Hack
Stats: 375/261.4/175 Female 66 inches
BF:
Progress: 57%
Location: NE Florida
Default

Quote:
The clients who fit this scenario—doing “everything right,” but not losing weight—have all been women. All of them. Most of them have been peri- or post-menopausal women,
Ha, I read this and thought "wow, that's ME!" but then I read the next part of the sentence where she said they had ALL been chronically undereating to the tune of 800-1200 calories a day for years or decades, and had to add, "wow, that is NOT me!". I've never chronically undereaten like that in this lifetime. Yeah I have low-cal days, especially rhe last few months doing IF and the potato hack, but certainly not chronic. Guess I will have to check out the rest of the article. I wonder if here is one of the places she lurks?
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  #3   ^
Old Tue, Nov-17-15, 06:31
bluesinger's Avatar
bluesinger bluesinger is offline
Maintaining
Posts: 2,144
 
Plan: LCHF
Stats: 170/142/138 Female 62 inches
BF:24%
Progress: 88%
Location: Nevada Desert, USA
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Quote:
Very few people seem to have an appreciation for the complex physiology of the human body, with its endless integrated connections and feedback loops. We are NOT calorimeters. We are NOT closed systems. You can’t provide an input somewhere and not have it adjusted for somewhere else. It’s like dropping a bowling ball onto a water bed; there is a ripple effect. (Or, to quote from one of the insulin posts, we are not cardboard boxes, where stuff gets put in, and stuff gets taken out, but nothing happens to it while it’s inside the box.)
Boy is that the truth!
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  #4   ^
Old Tue, Nov-17-15, 07:13
Liz53's Avatar
Liz53 Liz53 is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 6,085
 
Plan: Mostly Fung/IDM
Stats: 165/138.4/135 Female 63
BF:???/better/???
Progress: 89%
Location: Washington state
Default

Funny, I was just reading that article last night - it's definitely worth a read. Amy has a very easy refreshing humorous delivery and she is excellent at assimilating a bunch of info from a number of different sites and her own knowledge base.

I will be anxious to see if she has any new solutions - I'm guessing lower expectations, stay the course, eat for health will be a main theme.

And, yes, Debbie, she does show up on this site from time to time - she posted once or twice to a thread I used to frequent.

Amy has over the past couple of months posted a series called ITIS (It's the Insulin, Stupid) . It's 8 long parts but a really thorough look at insulin and insulin resistance. It gets pretty technical at times (in a satisfying way), but is still readable and occasionally humorous. One of the things I found interesting (and not as widely spoken about) is that it is unclear WHY insulin resistance develops - what comes first? Is it too many carbs that lead to insulin resistance or something further upstream, such as faulty glucagon receptors/signaling/response/whatever? For the most part, her thoughts are very much in line with Dr Fung's.

Last edited by Liz53 : Tue, Nov-17-15 at 08:52.
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  #5   ^
Old Tue, Nov-17-15, 09:28
leemack's Avatar
leemack leemack is offline
NEVER GIVING UP!
Posts: 5,030
 
Plan: no sugar/grains LCHF IF
Stats: 478/354/200 Female 5' 9"
BF:excessive!!
Progress: 45%
Location: UK
Default

From the comments section:

Quote:
I have nothing against people using scales in a healthy way, but many people do *not* do this. If they don't normally eat seafood, but they eat 2 shrimp one evening and the scale is up 2 pounds the next day, they will interpret that to mean that shrimp needs to be added to their ever-growing list of "disallowed foods." *That* is the kind of thinking I'm up against as a nutritionist.


I see this a lot on the forum, and I think it needs to be highlighted. Often the ones obsessing about each and every foodstuff are the ones who go off plan over and over again, and maybe don't give their body much chance to heal long term.
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  #6   ^
Old Tue, Nov-17-15, 12:03
Merpig's Avatar
Merpig Merpig is offline
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Posts: 5,971
 
Plan: IF/Fung IDM/Potato Hack
Stats: 375/261.4/175 Female 66 inches
BF:
Progress: 57%
Location: NE Florida
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leemack
I see this a lot on the forum, and I think it needs to be highlighted. Often the ones obsessing about each and every foodstuff are the ones who go off plan over and over again, and maybe don't give their body much chance to heal long term.
Very true. I'm one of those who is a daily weigher and I *need* to be a daily weigher, but I use it has a tool and don't obsess about it. Hey, after six years of watching the scale bounce up/down/up/down over and over again in a 5-20 pound range I'd probably be in the looney bin by now if I got too obsessed. , But I know if I *don't* weigh daily I can be in big trouble. I get too much of the mindset of: 1)"Hey, I can eat _this_(insert naughty food of choice) because I don't have to weigh myself for a week, or two, or three, and I'll get back on plan and lose the weight before then". So I do, but then the next day or two I'll eat something naughty again as I know I *still* have plenty of time before I need to weigh in. Of course then weigh-in day comes and I say 2)"well I really did eat a lot of naughty stuff. I better push weigh-in day off another week or two or three so I don't get depressed with the scale." so I push it off, revert back to step one.

Then before you know it I haven't been on the scale in a month or two, so at some point I do gingerly step on, and find I'm up 40-50 pounds (and yes I find it very easy to gain 40-50 pounds in that sort of time frame), and then I say 3) "screw it, I'm going out to have a hot fudge sundae". That's how every diet I've failed on has gone, so daily weighing totally prevents that. I still gain at the drop of a hat. Gained almost 5 pounds this week from eating an ad lib LCHF diet, so went back on the Potato Hack and am back down 4. A five-pound gain can be dealt with. A 50-pound gain is too depressing to contemplate.

I think Amy's advice about the scale may be good for the generally healthy woman who feels she'd look better if she could just drop 20 pounds, but maybe not so much for people like me!
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  #7   ^
Old Tue, Nov-17-15, 12:28
bluesinger's Avatar
bluesinger bluesinger is offline
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Posts: 2,144
 
Plan: LCHF
Stats: 170/142/138 Female 62 inches
BF:24%
Progress: 88%
Location: Nevada Desert, USA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by leemack
From the comments section:I see this a lot on the forum, and I think it needs to be highlighted. Often the ones obsessing about each and every foodstuff are the ones who go off plan over and over again, and maybe don't give their body much chance to heal long term.
I took this personally. And don't misunderstand, I'm not saying you're wrong. I AM one of those people. It's just that when I came to this forum I had been eating mostly on plan for 6 years without weight loss. I'm also one of those post-menopausal women with insulin resistance, not T2, only on one prescription medication and in general good health who is looking for the secret n=1 which will break my ever-lasting plateau.

Then, I see JustJo's anniversary, and read her posts about how she just "Eats OP every day" and I feel like an absolute idiot, jumping to IF, then to a potato hack, getting sick from who-knows-what new supplement or adding resistant starch. Honestly, I don't know what gets into me sometimes!

My goal is to be healthy and mobile, stay clear of T2 and arthritis pain. Still, the vain woman I've always been wants the weight-loss payoff.
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  #8   ^
Old Tue, Nov-17-15, 16:07
Meme#1's Avatar
Meme#1 Meme#1 is offline
Posts: 7,284
 
Plan: Atkins DANDR
Stats: 210/178.5/160 Female 5'4"
BF:
Progress: 63%
Location: Texas
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by leemack
From the comments section:



I see this a lot on the forum, and I think it needs to be highlighted. Often the ones obsessing about each and every foodstuff are the ones who go off plan over and over again, and maybe don't give their body much chance to heal long term.


I agree with you Lee. I read this too and think...no no it's not that little shrimp or egg or whatever. Those are kneejerk reactions that have no immediate connections to what on plan food that was eaten.
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  #9   ^
Old Tue, Nov-17-15, 17:00
FREE2BEME FREE2BEME is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 2,298
 
Plan: Atkins & IF
Stats: 257.4/239.3/150 Female 65 inches
BF:??/40%/25%
Progress: 17%
Location: Japan
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If ever there was a time that I needed to read this, it's now! I've recently rededicated myself to weightloss after years of puttering around on maintenance level carbs...then my thyroid crashed and those maintence levels actually didn't save me from a 35 pound gain in the past 18 months. I've been logging onto MFP daily and am lucky if I reach 1300 calories most days, despite not trying to limit them. It just seems to have come naturally, as the weight piled on over the years, my carbs AND calories naturally decreased. Really need this! Thanks for posting!
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  #10   ^
Old Tue, Nov-17-15, 17:53
Nicekitty's Avatar
Nicekitty Nicekitty is offline
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Posts: 462
 
Plan: Banting
Stats: 150/139/132 Female 5'7"
BF:
Progress: 61%
Location: PNW
Default

I'm really glad she is addressing this, but I think she is on the wrong track. I've noticed for a while that almost all the people with this frustrating issue seem to be women "of a certain age". Her article just confirms that observation. The logical conclusion is that this is hormone related--what differentiates women of this age from (most) younger women? (and men?) They are going through a period of tremendous turmoil in regards to hormones.

Amy is only 37 so I don't think she quite "gets" that. I don't know if anyone that hasn't gone through menopause can really grasp what a hormonal h*** it can be for many women. I am struggling right now with how to deal with so many hormone-related issues and have done quite a bit of research regarding all the different types. Many women have to choose between gaining weight on HRT or suffering with unbearable symptoms of deficiency. I've been fortunate in that I'm pretty certain added bio-identical progesterone has helped me get and keep weight down, but I may be forced to add some type of estrogen soon (my first try has been a dismal failure). Then it may be a different ball game. So I am definitely not out of the woods in regards to figuring out my weight and dietary issues.

Perhaps if we had all eaten a super-healthy, LCHF, Paleo type diet from the get-go we would not have all these issues with hormones. So she may be right in that sense--a diet of "fake food" perhaps set us up for failure. I'd like to think that every day I eat real food, high-quality meat, good fats is a day that I am closer to having a body that will get me through this dreadful time with fewer issues. Weight loss then becomes just a bonus.
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  #11   ^
Old Tue, Nov-17-15, 18:00
leemack's Avatar
leemack leemack is offline
NEVER GIVING UP!
Posts: 5,030
 
Plan: no sugar/grains LCHF IF
Stats: 478/354/200 Female 5' 9"
BF:excessive!!
Progress: 45%
Location: UK
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bluesinger
I took this personally. And don't misunderstand, I'm not saying you're wrong. I AM one of those people. It's just that when I came to this forum I had been eating mostly on plan for 6 years without weight loss. I'm also one of those post-menopausal women with insulin resistance, not T2, only on one prescription medication and in general good health who is looking for the secret n=1 which will break my ever-lasting plateau.

Then, I see JustJo's anniversary, and read her posts about how she just "Eats OP every day" and I feel like an absolute idiot, jumping to IF, then to a potato hack, getting sick from who-knows-what new supplement or adding resistant starch. Honestly, I don't know what gets into me sometimes!

My goal is to be healthy and mobile, stay clear of T2 and arthritis pain. Still, the vain woman I've always been wants the weight-loss payoff.


I'm sorry, I didn't mean to offend!

It is just something I'd observed - actually usually in younger than menopausal women where they'll say 'I ate two florets of broccoli last night and I've put on two lbs today, it must be the broccoli, I can't eat that again' (substitute broccoli for any foodstuff).

I certainly understand those people who try different things to get over a stall. Being so desperate lose the last few lbs is a little harder for me to understand (being very willing to settle for many lbs over my ideal of 160).

Last edited by leemack : Tue, Nov-17-15 at 18:11.
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  #12   ^
Old Tue, Nov-17-15, 18:20
leemack's Avatar
leemack leemack is offline
NEVER GIVING UP!
Posts: 5,030
 
Plan: no sugar/grains LCHF IF
Stats: 478/354/200 Female 5' 9"
BF:excessive!!
Progress: 45%
Location: UK
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Merpig
Very true. I'm one of those who is a daily weigher and I *need* to be a daily weigher, but I use it has a tool and don't obsess about it. Hey, after six years of watching the scale bounce up/down/up/down over and over again in a 5-20 pound range I'd probably be in the looney bin by now if I got too obsessed. , But I know if I *don't* weigh daily I can be in big trouble. I get too much of the mindset of: 1)"Hey, I can eat _this_(insert naughty food of choice) because I don't have to weigh myself for a week, or two, or three, and I'll get back on plan and lose the weight before then". So I do, but then the next day or two I'll eat something naughty again as I know I *still* have plenty of time before I need to weigh in. Of course then weigh-in day comes and I say 2)"well I really did eat a lot of naughty stuff. I better push weigh-in day off another week or two or three so I don't get depressed with the scale." so I push it off, revert back to step one.

Then before you know it I haven't been on the scale in a month or two, so at some point I do gingerly step on, and find I'm up 40-50 pounds (and yes I find it very easy to gain 40-50 pounds in that sort of time frame), and then I say 3) "screw it, I'm going out to have a hot fudge sundae". That's how every diet I've failed on has gone, so daily weighing totally prevents that. I still gain at the drop of a hat. Gained almost 5 pounds this week from eating an ad lib LCHF diet, so went back on the Potato Hack and am back down 4. A five-pound gain can be dealt with. A 50-pound gain is too depressing to contemplate.

I think Amy's advice about the scale may be good for the generally healthy woman who feels she'd look better if she could just drop 20 pounds, but maybe not so much for people like me!


I'm also a daily weigher, and like you, use it as a tool. I have a graph that shows the trend over time.

I recently gained a huge amount despite being on plan - I knew it must be fluid but couldn't find the cause. I tried to stay mellow about it, and once I found the cause 42lbs of fluid came off in two weeks.

I think some women fail to realise about fluid gain and blame a food stuff or fall off plan in frustration when just staying the course would see the fluid lbs come back off, often with friends.

as I've already given offence, I should also say this doesn't apply to all women, and that I know nothing yet of menopause (got that to look forward to).
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  #13   ^
Old Tue, Nov-17-15, 18:25
bluesinger's Avatar
bluesinger bluesinger is offline
Maintaining
Posts: 2,144
 
Plan: LCHF
Stats: 170/142/138 Female 62 inches
BF:24%
Progress: 88%
Location: Nevada Desert, USA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leemack
as I've already given offence, I should also say this doesn't apply to all women, and that I know nothing yet of menopause (got that to look forward to).
Hey! I tried to make it clear that you did NOT offend me. Sorry. Words can be awkward, even at the best of times. I ain't mad or offended or hurt or anything except enlightened.
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  #14   ^
Old Tue, Nov-17-15, 18:31
leemack's Avatar
leemack leemack is offline
NEVER GIVING UP!
Posts: 5,030
 
Plan: no sugar/grains LCHF IF
Stats: 478/354/200 Female 5' 9"
BF:excessive!!
Progress: 45%
Location: UK
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bluesinger
Hey! I tried to make it clear that you did NOT offend me. Sorry. Words can be awkward, even at the best of times. I ain't mad or offended or hurt or anything except enlightened.


No Problem I was just trying to make clear, with the awkward words on a screen (so true, I'm really much nicer in person) that there are different types......and that the scary world of menopause is (so far) beyond me (though it's hunting me and will eventually catch me if I live long enough).
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  #15   ^
Old Tue, Nov-17-15, 20:31
TuitNutrit TuitNutrit is offline
New Member
Posts: 9
 
Plan: Self-designed
Stats: 158/134/125 Female 5'2"
BF:
Progress: 73%
Default

Debbie -- I do lurk here, but very rarely. (Usually only when I notice a good amount of traffic coming to my blog from this forum and want to see if someone posted a link.)

NiceKitty -- you are absolutely right! I'm 37, and I am not afraid to admit that I am dreading "the change." I already have to fight pretty hard just to *maintain* my current weight (let alone improve), so I can only imagine how much more difficult it's going to be as the hormonal wheels fall off the wagon. Looking at the older women in my family, it is a head-on collision with disaster. BUT, I eat and live very differently from how they do (and did), so hopefully I'll fare at least a smidgen better. I still expect it to be a struggle. A difficult, frustrating, and infuriating one. I am trying to build a good baseline of muscle mass now. It's not the answer to everything, but I think it's a very important piece of the picture, and will be addressing it at some point in the "why am I not losing weight" posts.

The older women definitely seem to have it rougher than anyone else. Of course I think hormones play a role. But I also think we, as a society, have misplaced expectations that a 60 or 70-something-year-old woman should have the body of a 25-year old. Especially if you've given birth, worked in or outside the home, done the vast majority of the cooking, cleaning, worrying, playing chauffeur, etc., for a few decades. That really takes a toll on a gal over the years. Plus, women with a little more meat on their bones -- not necessarily obese, but just not rail thin and frail/fragile/scrawny -- seem to fare better as they age. Maintaining strength and mobility is crucial for vitality later in life. You don't want to be one of these stooped-over little ladies who can't carry her own grocery bag to the house from the car. (Granted, we'll probably all end up there someday [if we're lucky!], but it should happen when we're 90, not when we're 65.)

I read somewhere once: "A low-carb diet will get you as lean as you can be, but that might not be as lean as you want to be." I do think there are other tweaks that can help things go a little further, but to really go all the way, I'm just not sure. All I know is, I'd love for Stephan Guyenet to spend ONE WEEK in the body of a post-menopausal woman and see how inclined he is to pontificate about eating less and moving more.

Aaaanyway, sorry for the ramble. The things I'm going to talk about for why people might not be losing weight on a LC diet won't be limited to women. I will probably mention more than once that older women have to work harder to get anywhere. And I was going to try to keep things brief...like JEY100 said, my posts are way too long. They take far too much time to write in relation to what I earn from them, which is a cold, hard zero. Just wanted to warn you, because I don't want to disappoint anyone. I was going to talk in generalities, to give people some ideas to think about, should anything happen to resonate for them. (B-vitamin deficiency? On a statin?) I mean, as always, I'll try to explain things with enough plain English so people understand why the things I'll mention could hinder fat loss, but I don't want to write a dissertation on each individual factor.

Thanks for reading, everyone! And yes, like I said in the comments, I'm not anti-scale...when it is used in an intelligent way.
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