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  #16   ^
Old Sun, Sep-07-14, 13:51
Seejay's Avatar
Seejay Seejay is offline
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Posts: 3,019
 
Plan: Optimal Diet
Stats: 00/00/00 Female 62 inches
BF:
Progress: 8%
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benay
As for health issues--I have high BP and am on medication for that. No other health issues that I know of and I am an octogenarian. Not bad for an old girl. Energy expenditure is low--walking is an issue--I fall. I do other kinds of exercises.

Westman et al in the New Atkins for a New You recommends around 84 grams of protein/day (Protein Power recommended calculation based on lean body weight is the same)and I try to get down to that. Last week's stats: Carbs 6%, Protein 24%, fat 71%. Past month stats same. Past week's average calories 1560.

I can't find my body fat % but my calculated BMI is 31.79. My goal was to lose 30 pounds. I am having trouble getting to and maintaining a 10 pound weight loss since June 28. .
Hey congratulations on being an octeganarian in good health! I want to be like you. Only 18 more years to go for me.

A couple of thoughts. I think you might just be in energy equilibrium. Your dietary calories are enough so you don't have to dip into fat stores.

Just some thoughts:

Calories 1560 -

My favorite calorie calculator doesn't go higher than 80 years old. So that tells you the calorie calculators are just guessing for oldsters.
But even so, if I put in 80 years old, and 5'6" (from your BMI at 195 pounds), and little to no exercise (scuse me if that is not right), you need around 1650 calories to maintain weight. At average daily calories 1560, that's so close that you could see no weight loss just from little overages in measuring, or an extra few bites a day.
Calorie calculator

Or thinking of it another way, with a deficit of 90 calories a day, that would take 40 days to lose a pound. So maybe you're on track after all.

Or, if your activity is more like lightly active, that's 1880 calories a day, or a deficit of 220 per day, or 16 days to lose a pound.

Protein average 85 -

I personally had a very hard time losing on Protein Power recommendations. The higher dietary protein for making glucose via gluconeogenesis, just seemed to keep me in sugar burning and not in fat burning. Protein Power had me having 30 g per meal or 90 a day, and now I do well on 60 a day. (just 2 thirds of the earlier amount). I'm only 5'2" and mucho overfat.

Lean body mass -

BMI only tells you about pounds for your height. If you have light muscles now, from being 80 and no history of strength training, your lean body mass could be 15-20% lower than what Protein Power estimates. Thus a lower need for protein. And lower calories needed overall.

You can get your lean body mass measured at a gym either if they have a dunk tank or they have people who are very good with a tape measure. The difference can be within 3% which I think is worth it (eyew getting all wet in the dunk tank }. Plus you probably don't need all that much precise measuring of protein. Somewhere between 70 and 80 would work in my opinion.

Or, you could eat just a little less fat. I wouldn't go too low because that just makes me hungry. If my body releases fat slowly that just means I lose pounds slowly and I like that much better than not losing at all, or being hungry or set up to binge (what i do after prolonged low cal)
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  #17   ^
Old Mon, Sep-08-14, 06:14
Benay's Avatar
Benay Benay is offline
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Posts: 327
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 202/179/175 Female 5 feet 5 inches
BF:
Progress: 85%
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Thanks Seejay. I am following the New Atkins for a New You. They recommend a daily protein average for my height at 84. I find that difficult to achieve as my diet is primarily protein/fat and I don't really enjoy fat without a protein. I am trying to get the protein down. But I still have days when I am hungry as well as days when I am not. Hungry days are hard to manage without protein/fat.

Controlling portion sizes after decades of thinking an 8 ounce steak was one serving, requires a deliberate change in mind set without feeling deprived. A 3 ounce steak is hard for me to achieve. I have managed to get it down to 4 ounces so far.

The possibility that I may be in caloric equilibrium had not occurred to me but it makes perfect sense. Thanks for calling it to my attention.

Although males my age have been studied, I can't find any research on females in my age group, so it makes sense that the recommendations on amounts may not apply to my age group.

Although I have been a serious low carber since 2006 (following Protein Power), I did allow a carb creep and re-gained 30 pounds. That's what I am trying to take off again. To date, since June 28, I have managed to take off 10 pounds -- most of it during the first 2 weeks of induction. Presumably all water weight.

I did find my body fat calculation, based on tape measurements as 40.40 as calculated by the computer program "Body Tracker." It has gone down a bit since June but not substantially.

I don't know if you read the initial Protein Power published in the early nineties, but they gave a formula for calculating body fat, lean body mass, amount body fat for men/women in different age groups based upon tape measurements. Since so many people had trouble doing the calculations, apparently, they simply gave lists in the next iteration. Over the years, my lean body mass has not changed.

The Eades have backed off from their 'eat as much as you want of protein' and now recommend proportions more in line with both the original Atkins as well as Westman, Volek and Phinney. I went back to Atkins this decade because that was the direction the research was pointing.

Being a Turtle is hard for a person with needs for instant gratification. It is certainly a lesson in patience.

So thanks again for getting me to re-think my strategy.

Last edited by Benay : Mon, Sep-08-14 at 06:30.
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  #18   ^
Old Mon, Sep-08-14, 08:10
Seejay's Avatar
Seejay Seejay is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 3,019
 
Plan: Optimal Diet
Stats: 00/00/00 Female 62 inches
BF:
Progress: 8%
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benay
I don't know if you read the initial Protein Power published in the early nineties, but they gave a formula for calculating body fat, lean body mass, amount body fat for men/women in different age groups based upon tape measurements. Since so many people had trouble doing the calculations, apparently, they simply gave lists in the next iteration. Over the years, my lean body mass has not changed..
I did! I liked that book a lot actually. I was sorry when the next one took a different approach.

It took a while for me to dial down the protein too. I too can eat an 8-10 ounce steak, no problem

Good luck !
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  #19   ^
Old Mon, Sep-08-14, 08:25
JLx's Avatar
JLx JLx is online now
Senior Member
Posts: 1,640
 
Plan: IF
Stats: 252.5/218/152.5 Female 66
BF:Highest, 276
Progress: 35%
Location: Michigan U.P., USA
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Something that hasn't been mentioned -- that I've come to the conclusion is important for me -- is how often to eat.

We've been discussing the lectures and blog posts of Dr. Jason Fung on this board, http://forum.lowcarber.org/showthre...63&page=1&pp=15. While his emphasis is primarily on diabetes, he believes diabetes and obesity have the same cause, insulin toxicity/resistance. And frequent eating of insulinogenic foods, which include protein, can be an important factor. See my post here: http://forum.lowcarber.org/showpost...07&postcount=28 with some exerpts from Dr. Fung's Hormonal Obesity Theory.

See also his blog post here: http://intensivedietarymanagement.c...besity-part-xx/

Quote:
One of the founding principles of the low carbohydrate approach is that insulin is the key driver of obesity. This fact seems solidly grounded in science as we have discussed before. Carbs are the major macronutrient (out of fat, protein and carbs) that cause blood sugars to go up. As blood sugar goes up, insulin is assumed to also follow. Therefore, carbohydrates are assumed to play the major role in stimulating insulin release. This is true. However, we have not considered the possibility that food may increase the insulin levels without raising blood sugars.

The breakthrough was discovered in 1997, with the publication of the insulin index. Measuring the insulin response of 1000kJ portions of food, it was no surprise that the foods that stimulated insulin the most were the carbohydrate rich foods, bakery products, and snacks and confectionary. What was astounding was the fact that protein rich foods also significantly raised insulin levels.

Where most people assumed that there was a tight correlation between glucose levels and insulin levels, it turned out that only 23% of the variability in the insulin response was due to the glucose. In other words, only 23% of the insulin response is determined by how high the blood sugars rise. The vast majority of the insulin response (77%) is not related at all. Since it is insulin, and not glucose that drives weight gain, this changes everything. This is precisely where the glycemic index diets failed. They were targeting the glucose response with the assumption that the insulin response mirrored the glucose. But this is not the case. You could lower the glucose response by diet, but you didn’t necessarily lower the insulin response. In the end, it is only the insulin response that matters.


I don't mean to get up anyone's nose with his discussion of "The Atkins Decline", just provide some food for thought that I found very interesting in terms of my own weight loss/regains through my lifetime.

More on the insulinogenic index from Dr. Fung:
http://intensivedietarymanagement.com/insulin-index/

Quote:
The vast majority of the insulin response is still unknown. Some of the factors that are suspected or shown to affect the insulin secretion include presence of dietary fibre, an elevated amylose/amylopectin ratio of the starch, preserved botanical integrity (whole foods), presence of organic acids (fermentation), addition of vinegar (acetic acid), and addition of chili peppers (capsaicin). We will explore some of these factors in future posts. Nevertheless, the main point here is that there are many factors in the co-ingestion of foods that affect insulin. Things are about to become very complicated. The simplistic “Carbs make you fat!”, or “Calories make you fat!” or “Red meat makes you fat!” or “Sugar makes you fat!” sort of arguments simply are not able to capture the complexity of the human condition of weight gain. (my emphasis)


I'm not suggesting you decrease protein, btw, as you've already mentioned that you're struggling with that. Just throwing out some ideas that remind me of how previous generations of people used to eat, i.e. three meals a day, no snacking, no strange additives, moderate amounts of protein, low sugar, lots of fiber, fermented and vinegar containing foods.
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  #20   ^
Old Tue, Sep-09-14, 03:18
Benay's Avatar
Benay Benay is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 327
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 202/179/175 Female 5 feet 5 inches
BF:
Progress: 85%
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Thanks JLx. Points to ponder. The research on gluconeogenesis (hope I am spelling it right) and insulin is better known now and is the basis for the lower protein recommendations than in prior years. Old habits die hard. There also seems to be a lot of talk about fasting. I am still eating when hungry.
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