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  #46   ^
Old Thu, Jun-05-14, 10:37
Nancy LC's Avatar
Nancy LC Nancy LC is offline
Experimenter
Posts: 45,187
 
Plan: Paleo 99.5%
Stats: 210/170/160 Female 67.5"
BF:
Progress: 80%
Location: San Diego, CA
Default How Americans Got Red Meat Wrong

Article
Quote:
The idea that red meat is a principal dietary culprit has pervaded our national conversation for decades. We have been led to believe that we’ve strayed from a more perfect, less meat-filled past. Most prominently, when Senator McGovern announced his Senate committee’s report, called Dietary Goals, at a press conference in 1977, he expressed a gloomy outlook about where the American diet was heading.

NINA TEICHOLZJUN 2 2014, 9:24 AM ET
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  #47   ^
Old Thu, Jun-05-14, 10:52
mudgie mudgie is offline
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Posts: 87
 
Plan: LCHF
Stats: 206.5/167/160 Male 69.5"
BF:20%
Progress: 85%
Location: Chicago-ish
Default

I have for years eaten a high fat diet. I have historically allowed gratuitous carbs back in without ever really changing the fat. I was basically on Atkins every day until lunch or dinner, then all bets were off. I'm not sure if the ease of fat accumulation was due to the combination. Maybe I am just insulin resistant, which allows low carb to be so effective while also making fat accumulation so efficient. In other words, there may be nothing inherently wrong with the combination apart from the weight gain and detrimental health effects. As if low fat and high carb wouldn't net the same outcome... It sure would be interesting to see a study.
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  #48   ^
Old Thu, Jun-05-14, 13:40
Liz53's Avatar
Liz53 Liz53 is offline
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Posts: 6,116
 
Plan: Mostly Fung/IDM
Stats: 165/138.4/135 Female 63
BF:???/better/???
Progress: 89%
Location: Washington state
Default

Great article, Nancy.

This was my favorite part:
Ironically—or perhaps tellingly—the heart disease “epidemic” began after a period of exceptionally reduced meat eating. The publication of The Jungle, Upton Sinclair’s fictionalized exposé of the meatpacking industry, caused meat sales in the United States to fall by half in 1906, and they did not revive for another 20 years.

In other words, meat eating went down just before coronary disease took off. Fat intake did rise during those years, from 1909 to 1961, when heart attacks surged, but this 12 percent increase in fat consumption was not due to a rise in animal fat. It was instead owing to an increase in the supply of vegetable oils, which had recently been invented.

Nevertheless, the idea that Americans once ate little meat and “mostly plants”—espoused by McGovern and a multitude of experts—continues to endure. And Americans have for decades now been instructed to go back to this earlier, “healthier” diet that seems, upon examination, never to have existed.
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  #49   ^
Old Thu, Jun-05-14, 13:51
Liz53's Avatar
Liz53 Liz53 is offline
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Plan: Mostly Fung/IDM
Stats: 165/138.4/135 Female 63
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Location: Washington state
Default

Mudgie, Jeff Volek has researched eating saturated fat in the contexts of low and high carb diets. He discusses it in this podcast produced by Jimmy Moore

Last edited by Liz53 : Fri, Jun-06-14 at 09:27.
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  #50   ^
Old Thu, Jun-05-14, 17:07
Ilikemice's Avatar
Ilikemice Ilikemice is offline
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Plan: Paleo-ish general LC
Stats: 151/128/123 Female 64 in
BF:
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Location: Middle Tennessee
Default

Don't miss the epic comment war below the article. A few people are defending the paleo and LC principles very well.
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  #51   ^
Old Sun, Jun-08-14, 21:04
deirdra's Avatar
deirdra deirdra is offline
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Plan: HF/vLC/GF,CF,SF
Stats: 197/136/150 Female 66 inches
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Progress: 130%
Location: Alberta
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One of my favourite parts of The Big Fat Surprise was learning about the spontaneous combustion of fast-food-workers' uniforms (before & even after being laundered) since polyunsaturated oils replaced transfats & saturated fats in the fryers. The p-u oils oxidize at frying temperatures and the oil splatters and coats the equipment and their uniforms with gunk. I also worry about the lungs of these poor workers.
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  #52   ^
Old Sun, Jun-08-14, 23:04
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aj_cohn aj_cohn is offline
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Plan: Protein Power
Stats: 213/167/165 Male 65 in.
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Default

I make a point of reading the 1-star reviews of paleo-low carb books on Amazon, just for the lulz. For this book, I was startled by the 1-star review from someone named "Seth 'me,'" titled "Terrible scholarship and blatant dishonesty." With plenty of examples, he asserted that the author plagiarized Taubes' GCBC extensively. He also goes on to cite evidence that both Taubes and Teicholz misrepresented some of the evidence they both cite.

It's a well-thought out critique and worth reading.
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  #53   ^
Old Mon, Jun-09-14, 08:44
Liz53's Avatar
Liz53 Liz53 is offline
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Plan: Mostly Fung/IDM
Stats: 165/138.4/135 Female 63
BF:???/better/???
Progress: 89%
Location: Washington state
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by aj_cohn
With plenty of examples, he asserted that the author plagiarized Taubes' GCBC extensively. He also goes on to cite evidence that both Taubes and Teicholz misrepresented some of the evidence they both cite.

It's a well-thought out critique and worth reading.


She plagiarizes Taubes? I'm just now reading the chapter on LC and in it is a section (pages 311-315) called Gary Taubes and "The Big Fat Lie". On page 315, she says "Even so, whatever scientific progress has been made toward our greater understanding of carbohydrates generally in recent years has clearly been due to Taubes' work. "This has been his most important contribution t the filed," says Ronald M Krauss, an influential nutrition expert and the director of research at the Children's Hospital Oakland Research Institute. For a journalist, it was an astonishing coup in the world of science. In 2013, Taubes became one of the rare journalists to write a peer-reviewed article for the highly respected scientific publication, the British Medical Journal. Yet given the stranglehold that Keys's ideas have held on nutrition researchers for so many decades, it is perhaps inevitable that an alternative hypothesis had to come from an outsider."

In one of her many footnotes, she also mentions NuSi and that experiments are underway to determine whether carbohydrates are uniquely fattening.

I will read the critique, but plagiarism is not something she is guilty of with regard to Taubes. Yes, she and Taubes see eye to eye, but she definitely acknowledges what he has done for the field of LC studies.
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  #54   ^
Old Mon, Jun-09-14, 09:42
aj_cohn's Avatar
aj_cohn aj_cohn is offline
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Plan: Protein Power
Stats: 213/167/165 Male 65 in.
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Progress: 96%
Location: United States
Default

Liz,

Please read not only the initial critique, but all of the subsequent responses to criticisms of his remarks. His accusations of plagiarism stem not from her lack of acknowledgement of Taubes' work, but from the use of *exactly* the same phrasing of Taubes in many instances.

Last edited by aj_cohn : Mon, Jun-09-14 at 10:37.
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  #55   ^
Old Mon, Jun-09-14, 10:21
janjfree's Avatar
janjfree janjfree is offline
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Posts: 1,635
 
Plan: Primal/Paleo Atkins
Stats: 197.5/126/132 Female 63
BF:19.4%
Progress: 109%
Location: Baltimore, MD
Default

What's uglier are the 2 posts by Logan5 who refers to the author as "fatso" and clearly holds in disdain anyone who has struggled with their weight.

I reported his posts as abuse.
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  #56   ^
Old Mon, Jun-09-14, 10:58
Liz53's Avatar
Liz53 Liz53 is offline
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Posts: 6,116
 
Plan: Mostly Fung/IDM
Stats: 165/138.4/135 Female 63
BF:???/better/???
Progress: 89%
Location: Washington state
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by aj_cohn
Liz,

Please read not only the initial critique, but all of the subsequent responses to criticisms of his remarks. His accusations of plagiarism stem not from her lack of acknowledgement of Taubes' work, but from the use of *exactly* the same phrasing of Taubes in many instances.


Well, I guess I'll have to go back and check footnotes, I guess (something I'm frankly not likely to do), but that seems like a minor crime compared to falsifying data, burying results, etc.
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  #57   ^
Old Mon, Jun-09-14, 12:30
rightnow's Avatar
rightnow rightnow is offline
Every moment is NOW.
Posts: 18,075
 
Plan: Dirty Primal Mostly Keto
Stats: 520/398.8/350 Female 66 inches
BF: Why yes it is.
Progress: 71%
Location: Ozarks USA
Default

That'll teach her to paraphrase better...

Still the other accusations are vastly more insulting...

Well except the fatso bit. Really anybody who comments like a 12 year old is not worth worrying about.

PJ
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  #58   ^
Old Mon, Jun-09-14, 14:06
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is offline
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Posts: 11,044
 
Plan: ketosis/IF
Stats: 190/158/154 Male 67inches
BF:
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Location: Ontario
Default

http://thescienceofnutrition.wordpr...giaristic-note/

This is a blog of Seth's posted in a comment (Amazon deleted it from his review).

Quote:
In his whopper of a diet book Good Calories, Bad Calories Gary Taubes blatantly lies about makes a mistake when reporting the results of the Y&H paper. He claims that the link between fat and heart disease vanishes if no countries are excluded from the analysis.


This actually seems open to interpretation to me. Knock out a few outliers, everything looks pretty random to me. Take a single level of fat intake on the "high" end--what you get is pillars, countries spanning a wide range, from high levels of heart disease to low. One thing that is shown--high fat, low heart disease aren't incompatible.

Fun in the comments, Plant Positive shows up and accuses Seth of plagiarism. Seth pleads that he's innocent. Of course, he deserves the benefit of the doubt.
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  #59   ^
Old Mon, Jun-09-14, 14:35
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is offline
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Posts: 11,044
 
Plan: ketosis/IF
Stats: 190/158/154 Male 67inches
BF:
Progress: 89%
Location: Ontario
Default

But my bias is probably showing... and when it comes down to it, I try not to care about epidemiology, whether it supports my views or no...

But pretty random with the qualifier "to me" isn't the same as random, and it certainly isn't "vanished."
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  #60   ^
Old Mon, Jun-09-14, 15:10
Liz53's Avatar
Liz53 Liz53 is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 6,116
 
Plan: Mostly Fung/IDM
Stats: 165/138.4/135 Female 63
BF:???/better/???
Progress: 89%
Location: Washington state
Default

Interesting link, teaser. I notice that Seth introduces himself as a former grad student at UWashington, the same institution where Stephen Guyenet obtained his PhD. I wonder if they are one and the same or perhaps he is a follower of Guyenet or Guyenet's advisor? He certainly seems to have an axe to grind against Atkins, Taubes and now Teicholz.

Teicholz addresses the fact that healthy people can be found eating diets of a wide range of fat levels; she says what unites them is the lack of sugar. After dissecting the so-called Mediterranean Diet (or the Mediterranean post-war Lenten and/or poverty diet), she suggests we all go back to our own personal "traditional diets". That seems like a sensible strategy if one can untangle what one's traditional diet might have been (difficult in North America as she points out).
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