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  #16   ^
Old Fri, Sep-20-13, 07:27
ojoj's Avatar
ojoj ojoj is offline
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Plan: atkins
Stats: 210/126/127 Female 5ft 7in
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WereBear



It's not like there are secret clinics where drug company bigwigs and cancer doctors and radiography machine companies all hang out, eating grassfed beef. When their children get cancer; they take them to the big hospitals and poison them, just like everyone else.

It takes incredible will, and extraordinary confidence, to think outside the box. Everyone here has done it.

But we know how much it takes to swim against the tide.
and thats the bit that bothers me - these are experts and we're not. Surely they must have more understanding and ideas than we do - so if they or their loved ones get cancer, do they not look deeper, beyond the financial hype???

Jo xxx
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  #17   ^
Old Fri, Sep-20-13, 07:49
M Levac M Levac is offline
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Posts: 6,206
 
Plan: VLC, mostly meat
Stats: 202/200/165 Male 5' 7"
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Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ojoj
and thats the bit that bothers me - these are experts and we're not. Surely they must have more understanding and ideas than we do - so if they or their loved ones get cancer, do they not look deeper, beyond the financial hype???

Jo xxx

I agree. This puzzles me to no end. Experts that go with obviously-wrong hypotheses.
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  #18   ^
Old Fri, Sep-20-13, 07:53
WereBear's Avatar
WereBear WereBear is offline
Posts: 9,877
 
Plan: Epi-Paleo/IF
Stats: 220/162/150 Female 67
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Progress: 83%
Location: USA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ojoj
and thats the bit that bothers me - these are experts and we're not. Surely they must have more understanding and ideas than we do - so if they or their loved ones get cancer, do they not look deeper, beyond the financial hype???



Yes, they are experts. In surgery, chemo, and radiation. So all that expertise is concentrated on BETTER surgery, chemo, and radiation. That's all we've been doing since the 1970's.

Honestly, that is how it works. I've known a couple of oncologists who tell me there's nothing more I can do and they quit and go into other fields. They don't get a wild hair and plunge into cancer research and come up with something better.

Their training has closed off their minds. Even if their own lives, and those of their loved ones, are at stake.

An interesting story, along these same lines:

Waaaay back, I got a new tackle box. Now, I don't fish; I used it for my makeup, and had for years. But this time, I wrote on the little card to send back to the manufacturer, and I told them that.

Well, nine months later, there are pink and purple tackle boxes with mirrors inside the lids all over the place. Remember? That was me.

They couldn't do it, because their expertise was fussing over tackle boxes. When they looked at it, all they saw was fish.
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  #19   ^
Old Fri, Sep-20-13, 08:08
WereBear's Avatar
WereBear WereBear is offline
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Plan: Epi-Paleo/IF
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I have a tremendous advantage in that my brain won't stay in the box, anyway. This gets me into trouble about as often as it helps me out, so I'm okay with that.

This is a charming TED talk on such thinking:

http://www.ted.com/talks/jay_silver...a_keyboard.html
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  #20   ^
Old Fri, Sep-20-13, 08:37
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Liz53 Liz53 is online now
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Plan: Mostly Fung/IDM
Stats: 165/138.4/135 Female 63
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Progress: 89%
Location: Washington state
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A few years ago I read The Emperor of Maladies, the book about cancer cited in the article (GREAT article, BTW, bookmarked forever). It pointed out early on, perhaps in the introduction, that Nixon had waged WAR on cancer. It was never about prevention, more about aggressive treatment. Unfortunately that seems to be the American way. Time to change the paradigm? That's never easy.
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  #21   ^
Old Fri, Sep-20-13, 10:04
Ron_Mocci Ron_Mocci is offline
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Plan: AK
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Hi all , I just want to say there is NO money in healthy people , that being said google 1900 and Cancer... and heart disease ! almost NONE !
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  #22   ^
Old Fri, Sep-20-13, 10:17
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is online now
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Plan: ketosis/IF
Stats: 190/158/154 Male 67inches
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Location: Ontario
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Quote:
When I asked Dr. Larry Loeb of the University of Washington, one of the key players in the CGAP, to summarize in a few sentences what has been learned so far from the sequence data –he spoke slowly and deliberately, “There are enormous numbers of mutations present in each tumor – and it is very, very difficult to determine which ones are causative. We do not have an adequate armament of effective drugs to target the spectrum of mutant genes within individual tumors. The mutational complexity found in cancer is truly daunting.”


So--if mutation is more common in cancer cells, and supposing the mutations didn't cause the cancer--did the cancer cause the mutations? Or is there a common cause?

Are mitochondria involved in the accuracy of the replication of DNA? Not hard to suppose that energy metabolism in general is.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EffpuKqWWF8

I'm sure we have a thread on this video somewhere, but for some reason I missed it. Taubes, Volek and others talking about obesity and cancer.
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  #23   ^
Old Fri, Sep-20-13, 10:19
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Nancy LC Nancy LC is offline
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Plan: Paleo 99.5%
Stats: 210/170/160 Female 67.5"
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Quote:
So--if mutation is more common in cancer cells, and supposing the mutations didn't cause the cancer--did the cancer cause the mutations?

Or did something ELSE cause the mutations? Like oxidative damage from sugars glomming onto proteins.
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  #24   ^
Old Fri, Sep-20-13, 10:25
Nancy LC's Avatar
Nancy LC Nancy LC is offline
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Posts: 45,189
 
Plan: Paleo 99.5%
Stats: 210/170/160 Female 67.5"
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I think the issue starts with their training, like the article I posted says. They're told from their first exposure in college that cancer is a gene-based disease. They don't even learn about it once being through a metabolic disease (I'm guessing). So when they emerge from their academic chrysalis, they've already got blinders on and they go running straight-down the genetic hallway, following their peers in exactly the wrong direction.

Judging from the fact that most of the funding for the metabolic pathway of cancer comes from grass-roots efforts, the cure for cancer will come from the bottom and gradually filter up to the so-called experts.

It was interesting what they wrote about that one drug that worked so well it killed the patient from the tumor disintegrating so quickly.
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  #25   ^
Old Fri, Sep-20-13, 10:26
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is online now
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Plan: ketosis/IF
Stats: 190/158/154 Male 67inches
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Yes. Another possibility that presents itself is this; cancer cells are famous for excessive, out of control self-replication. During normal development and replication of cells, there are safeguards against DNA damage--for instance, there is a limit to how many times a type of cell will replicate, there are mechanisms for telomere elongation etc. The mere fact of proliferation of cells means opportunity for genetic mutation.
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  #26   ^
Old Fri, Sep-20-13, 10:35
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Idealist77 Idealist77 is offline
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Plan: General Low Carb
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Very Interesting!!!

"The important point emphasized by scientists who study the combination of the ketogenic diet combined with drugs that target metabolism – is that the ketogenic diet differentiates in a way that no chemotherapeutic drug on the market is able to – the ketogenic diet makes healthy cells healthier and sick cells sicker – allowing a synergistic effect when adjunctive agents are utilized. It prepares the therapeutic landscape to be more receptive to additional treatments that target metabolism – When taken together as a comprehensive therapeutic strategy; the ketogenic diet could be thought of as primer to a painter, or fertilizer to a gardener."
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  #27   ^
Old Fri, Sep-20-13, 12:14
WereBear's Avatar
WereBear WereBear is offline
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Plan: Epi-Paleo/IF
Stats: 220/162/150 Female 67
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Location: USA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Idealist77
Very Interesting!!!

"The important point emphasized by scientists who study the combination of the ketogenic diet combined with drugs that target metabolism – is that the ketogenic diet differentiates in a way that no chemotherapeutic drug on the market is able to – the ketogenic diet makes healthy cells healthier and sick cells sicker – allowing a synergistic effect when adjunctive agents are utilized. It prepares the therapeutic landscape to be more receptive to additional treatments that target metabolism – When taken together as a comprehensive therapeutic strategy; the ketogenic diet could be thought of as primer to a painter, or fertilizer to a gardener."


This is probably the way it will go: using the ketogenic diet as an adjunct to treatment, and easing the concept in that way.

My objection to chemo and radiation is that these are cancer-causing agents.

For a famous example, Roger Ebert didn't die of his cancer. He was "cured." It was the cancer treatment which disfigured him and killed him.
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  #28   ^
Old Fri, Sep-20-13, 12:40
Seejay's Avatar
Seejay Seejay is offline
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Plan: Optimal Diet
Stats: 00/00/00 Female 62 inches
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ojoj
From what I can see, they've done nothing with the huge amounts of money they've been given in the last 50 years!!!! But you cant say that. Imagine the outcry if I wrote on my facebook page that I disapprove of Cancer research!!!!
Even worse, there is so much more money now, donated by all those people who think giving for a pink ribbon is a good thing. So then the public is paying for research on treatments, which should have been paid for by the treatment industry, thereby driving even more net profit for the treatment industry.

I know so many sweet old ladies who press me to buy their cancer crafts. I usually give the absolute minimum and get the heck out of there - a woman survivor in her 70s is just plain a true believer in current cancer treatments.
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  #29   ^
Old Fri, Sep-20-13, 12:55
M Levac M Levac is offline
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Plan: VLC, mostly meat
Stats: 202/200/165 Male 5' 7"
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Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
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I have another idea. Getting cancer in the first place proves two things. We were exposed to something that causes cancer, and our milieu interieur is primed to make cancer grow. This makes it simple to avoid cancer. Sure, we can't avoid all the possible causes we know of or not, so we can't really be sure we'll be safe if that's how we go about it. The easiest and best way to avoid cancer therefore is to make our milieu interieur as hostile as possible to cancer. Of course, if we work under the paradigm that cancer can only be beat with very toxic procedures, we'll end up killing ourselves in the process. But if instead we work under the premise that normal metabolism is that cancer-hostile environment, we got it made easy and painless.
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  #30   ^
Old Fri, Sep-20-13, 14:43
WereBear's Avatar
WereBear WereBear is offline
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Plan: Epi-Paleo/IF
Stats: 220/162/150 Female 67
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Progress: 83%
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M Levac
But if instead we work under the premise that normal metabolism is that cancer-hostile environment, we got it made easy and painless.


Right now my doctor is harassing me to get a mammogram and a colonoscopy. I don't think there's a point to it.

Quote:
In another interesting study reported back in 2005 in the Journal of the National Cancer Institute, researchers looked retrospectively at almost 4000 women in the US between the ages of 40 and 69. Much to the surprise of the authors, the study found that women who underwent regular screening died at the same rate as those who declined mammograms. Mammogram controversy


Except, screening gives me extra radiation! Right where a cancer might grow. And there's this:

Quote:
Each year over 14 million healthy Americans are getting screened for colon cancer. Of these, according to the report “Complications of Colonoscopy in an Integrated Health Care Delivery System” by the Annals of Internal Medicine, an estimated 70,000 (0.5%) are killed or injured by colonoscopy-related complications. This figure is higher than the total number of annual deaths from colon cancer itself, 22% higher.

Is colonoscopy worth the risk?


But when I bring up actual research... from recognized bodies like the ones quoted here, it bounces right off a doctor's skull, they smile brightly at me, and repeat, "But you have to get this done."
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