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  #91   ^
Old Sun, Jun-03-12, 08:00
Nancy LC's Avatar
Nancy LC Nancy LC is offline
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Posts: 45,269
 
Plan: Paleo 99.5%
Stats: 210/170/160 Female 67.5"
BF:
Progress: 80%
Location: San Diego, CA
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I like rewriting headlines:

Paleo diet followers love eating like cavemen, but health experts are still idiots.

Or

Paleo diet followers love eating like cavemen, but I found a health expert idiot to disagree to make it sound like this article is balanced somehow.
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  #92   ^
Old Sun, Jun-03-12, 09:42
howlovely howlovely is offline
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Posts: 778
 
Plan: Paleo
Stats: 180/170/145 Female 70
BF:
Progress: 29%
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Quote:
Some local dietitians say cutting out two major food groups -- grains and dairy -- from your diet isn't a good idea and could lead to a lack of calcium and vitamin D. They also say risk for heart problems may increase if you're not careful about making lean-meat choices.

"I would describe it as a very low-carb diet and low in a lot of nutrients, vitamins and minerals," said Angie Scheetz, registered dietitian and wellness coordinator at the National Institute for Fitness and Sport. "It's not something I would recommend."


This is literally their only arguments: either totally incorrect knowledge about nutrition, or outdated science regarding heart disease. CW nutritionists have got to be the stupidest, least educated "profession" on the face of the planet. I bet if I had a consultation with with Ms. Scheetz, she would tell me to have high fiber cereal with skim milk and a glass of orange juice for breakfast. I guess this morning's paleo breakfast of a three egg omelet with onions, bacon, and peppers with a GIANT salad is way less healthy. It is obvious missing the nutrients that only Total and oxidized cholesterol laden skim milk can provide! Oh, and everyone knows you can ONLY get vitamin C from oranges.

And Angie, it is not a "VERY low-carb diet." Did you even look at the diet? Are you stupid? Can you not read? No, I am seriously asking these questions. At this point I literally have no other explanation. The Paleo diet is a low or high carb as the individual wants it to be.

And I do not normally cuss on this board, but here it goes: fuck you and your "food groups." This is not an argument on its own. I am getting so sick of hearing this already. If you want to make a "food group" argument, then you're going to have to starting adding the word "because." Since CW nutritionists obviously have the critical thinking skills of a piece of whole grain bread, I will happily demonstrate:

Paleo is bad because it eliminates the grain food group BECAUSE grains are essential to human health BECAUSE....and then you need to list why. Until then, your food group argument is the most asinine thing I have been forced to hear over the years.

IT. IS. NOT. AN. ARGUMENT. It is a mere statement of fact regarding a totally arbitrary and made-up classification of foods. What would happen if the Barcadi family managed to buy off even more members of Congress then they currently own, and they manage to get rum added to the food groups? Would that get nutritionists to stop and think? Would it take something that ridiculous to get them to ask questions?

PS - I got plenty of Vitamin D today without drinking a single glass of vitamin D milk. I took walk in the sunshine.
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  #93   ^
Old Sun, Jun-03-12, 10:40
Sagehill Sagehill is offline
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Posts: 14,156
 
Plan: 8am-2pm IF, Dr. Fung
Stats: 250/176.4/150 Female 5'3"
BF:
Progress: 74%
Location: Central FL
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nancy LC
I like rewriting headlines:

Paleo diet followers love eating like cavemen, but health experts are still idiots.
Too TRUE!
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  #94   ^
Old Sun, Jun-03-12, 13:51
aj_cohn's Avatar
aj_cohn aj_cohn is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 3,948
 
Plan: Protein Power
Stats: 213/167/165 Male 65 in.
BF:35%/23%/20%
Progress: 96%
Location: United States
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Quote:
Schelling has lost 10 pounds in about five weeks and is just getting started. She eats a lot of vegetables, chicken, buffalo and 10 eggs per week. She snacks on grapes, cantaloupe and carrots. When she works out, she treats herself to a Lara all-natural, fruit-nut bar.


Somehow, I don't think Grok the caveman ate Lara bars, or much fruit or nuts at all. The fruit Grok could find was at the end of summer (tropics excepted) and was quite bitter by our standards.

That may be beside the point, though. "Paleo" people aim for paleolithic people's level of health, not to replicate their diet. Some of us Neolithic types can eat small amounts of neolithic foods e.g., chili w/ beans, 85% chocolate, and not suffer. And everybody in the Paleo community embraces coconut-based products, which weren't available to most Paleolithic peoples.

Last edited by aj_cohn : Sun, Jun-03-12 at 14:04.
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  #95   ^
Old Sun, Jun-03-12, 13:57
aj_cohn's Avatar
aj_cohn aj_cohn is offline
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Posts: 3,948
 
Plan: Protein Power
Stats: 213/167/165 Male 65 in.
BF:35%/23%/20%
Progress: 96%
Location: United States
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Quote:
"I follow the diet about 85 to 90 percent of the time, but I also eat beans and drink milk. If you're going to eat fresh fruit and vegetables and meat from cage-free, grass-fed animals, it's a huge financial investment." Jared Cantrell, 29, Indianapolis, drug and alcohol abuse counselor, Wheeler Mission Industries.


QFT. That's a semi-valid argument. You can eat grain-fed meat and get about 2/3 of the benefit of a Paleo diet.
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  #96   ^
Old Sun, Jun-03-12, 14:08
aj_cohn's Avatar
aj_cohn aj_cohn is offline
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Posts: 3,948
 
Plan: Protein Power
Stats: 213/167/165 Male 65 in.
BF:35%/23%/20%
Progress: 96%
Location: United States
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Berggoetz doesn't say the magic words: "I ate more saturated animal fat to stay energized and full." I asked her, in the comments section, how much animal fat she ate as a percentage of calories. Let's see if she answers. Actually, let's see if I can figure out how to tell if she answers; the Indy-Star's using FB comments, and I don't know how to find those comments in FB.

Last edited by aj_cohn : Sun, Jun-03-12 at 14:17.
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  #97   ^
Old Sun, Jun-03-12, 14:08
Nancy LC's Avatar
Nancy LC Nancy LC is offline
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Posts: 45,269
 
Plan: Paleo 99.5%
Stats: 210/170/160 Female 67.5"
BF:
Progress: 80%
Location: San Diego, CA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aj_cohn
And everybody in the Paleo community embraces coconut-based products, which weren't available to most Paleolithic peoples.

I don't know where you came up with that notion. Asia was settled 125+ thousand years ago. I'm sure they availed themselves of coconuts. Plus coconut palms are also found on the African continent. In fact, most of modern human's time has been spent in close proximity to coconuts.

Coconuts tend to grow in tropical climates most everywhere because they can float across an ocean and start growing anywhere.

Last edited by Nancy LC : Sun, Jun-03-12 at 14:17.
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  #98   ^
Old Sun, Jun-03-12, 14:24
aj_cohn's Avatar
aj_cohn aj_cohn is offline
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Posts: 3,948
 
Plan: Protein Power
Stats: 213/167/165 Male 65 in.
BF:35%/23%/20%
Progress: 96%
Location: United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nancy LC
In fact, most of modern human's time has been spent in close proximity to coconuts.


I don't think either of us is an expert in paleolithic food consumption. All I know is what I've read on Dr. Eades' blog: paleolithic peoples were top-level predators and probably drove some big-game species to extinction. 40,000 years ago, what percentage of the earth's climate was suitable for growing coconuts? What percentage of people in climates inhospitable for growing coconuts got them by trade prior to the neolithic period? Just as you're sure that coconuts were available to most people back in the day, I'm sure they weren't. Until one of us serves up the evidence of ancient diets or climatic data, we're both entitled to our version of history.
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  #99   ^
Old Sun, Jun-03-12, 14:48
mio1996's Avatar
mio1996 mio1996 is offline
Glutton for Grease!
Posts: 1,338
 
Plan: Primal-VLC
Stats: 295/190/190 Male 76
BF:don't/really/care
Progress: 100%
Location: Clemson, SC
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aj_cohn
Somehow, I don't think Grok the caveman ate Lara bars, or much fruit or nuts at all. The fruit Grok could find was at the end of summer (tropics excepted) and was quite bitter by our standards.

That may be beside the point, though. "Paleo" people aim for paleolithic people's level of health, not to replicate their diet. Some of us Neolithic types can eat small amounts of neolithic foods e.g., chili w/ beans, 85% chocolate, and not suffer. And everybody in the Paleo community embraces coconut-based products, which weren't available to most Paleolithic peoples.

When I try to explain my reasons for doing paleo to others, I usually say something like: "I try to follow a system of diet that aproximates the metabolic effect of the diet our hunter-gatherer ancestors." Personally, I consume lots of cheese and heavy cream because I believe that those foods are, in a metabolic sense, the same thing as meat and fat

Don't think I would rate a Lara bar as metabolically paleo, though! That reminds me of something I saw where a "paleo" guy was drinking coke to recover from a workout
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  #100   ^
Old Sun, Jun-03-12, 14:59
Nancy LC's Avatar
Nancy LC Nancy LC is offline
Experimenter
Posts: 45,269
 
Plan: Paleo 99.5%
Stats: 210/170/160 Female 67.5"
BF:
Progress: 80%
Location: San Diego, CA
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I don't have problem reconciling that people hunted large game to extinction and ate coconut. I have a much harder time thinking they'd leave such an awesome source of fresh water, and high fat nutrition lying on the ground for the coconut crabs to eat. I think our paleo ancestors weren't quite that dumb.

Coconut timeline
Quote:
The “beachcomber express” 65,000-45,000 YBP
“The pattern of variation in the DNA of both mitochondrial and Y chromosomes in all people of non-African origin attests that some time around 65,000 years ago, or not much later, a group of people, numbering just a few hundred in all, left Africa. They probably crossed the narrow southern end of the Red Sea, a channel much narrower then than it is now. They then spread along the south coast of Arabia, hopping over a largely dry Persian Gulf, skirting round India and a then connected Sri Lanka, moving gradually down through Burma, Malaya and along the coast of a landmass called Sunda in which most of the Indonesian islands were then embedded, until they came to a strait somewhere near Bali. But they did not stop there either. They paddled across at least eight straits, the largest at least forty miles wide, presumably on canoes or rafts, working their way through an archipelago to land, probably around 45,000 years ago, on the continent of Sahul, in which Australia and New Guinea were conjoined. This great movement from Africa to Australia was not a migration, but an expansion. As bands of people feasted on the coconuts, clams, turtles, fish and birds . . . The interior of many of the continents was inhospitably dry, windy and cold. But the low-lying coasts were dotted with oases of freshwater springs. The low sea level not only exposed more springs, but increased the relative pressure on underground aquifers to discharge near the coast. All along the coast of Asia, the beachcombers would have found fresh water bubbling up and flowing into streams that meandered down to the ocean. The coast is also rich in food, if you have the ingenuity to find it, even on desert shores. It made sense to stick to the beach.”

Ridley, M (2011) The Rational Optimist, page 65-68; Harper Collins, London.

Last edited by Nancy LC : Sun, Jun-03-12 at 15:08.
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  #101   ^
Old Sun, Jun-03-12, 15:00
aj_cohn's Avatar
aj_cohn aj_cohn is offline
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Posts: 3,948
 
Plan: Protein Power
Stats: 213/167/165 Male 65 in.
BF:35%/23%/20%
Progress: 96%
Location: United States
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*sigh* My evil twin, Skippy, got control of my keyboard. I apologize for my snippy outburst, Nancy. The fact that you know that Asia was settled 125K years ago trumps my ignorance.

Last edited by aj_cohn : Mon, Jun-04-12 at 09:20.
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  #102   ^
Old Sun, Jun-03-12, 15:09
Nancy LC's Avatar
Nancy LC Nancy LC is offline
Experimenter
Posts: 45,269
 
Plan: Paleo 99.5%
Stats: 210/170/160 Female 67.5"
BF:
Progress: 80%
Location: San Diego, CA
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No worries. Have some bacon.

Read some Jared Diamond. I think in Collapse he talks about the stuff they find in pack rat middens which are remarkably well preserved snapshots of what plant life existed, even 40+ thousand years ago. They pee on them and something in their pee preserves all the stuff they collect.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pack_rat#Midden

There are similar creatures on other continents, not to mention they find examples of paleo middens which give some indication of what they eat, although plant stuffs tend to break down more quickly, sometimes it gets preserved.

This is how they can acquire information about how plant life has changed over the centuries, climate and such.

Quote:
A packrat midden is a debris pile constructed by a woodrat. A packrat midden may preserve the materials incorporated into it for up to 50,000 years. The middens may thus be analyzed to reconstruct their original environment, and comparisons between middens allow a record of vegetative and climate change to be built. Examinations and comparisons of pack rat middens have largely supplanted pollen records as a method of study in the regions where they are available.[7]

Last edited by Nancy LC : Sun, Jun-03-12 at 15:21.
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  #103   ^
Old Mon, Jun-04-12, 02:19
howlovely howlovely is offline
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Posts: 778
 
Plan: Paleo
Stats: 180/170/145 Female 70
BF:
Progress: 29%
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My own issue with coconuts and coconut products is that I think they are potentially overused by some paleo folk. Personally, my ancestry is 100% Northern European. Thus, I am a little hesitant to make coconuts a huge part of my diet. I eat curries and whatnot, but there are people out there with a similar genetic background to mine who make all kinds of stuff out of coconut, and use coconut products as "substitutes" for grain. I am not saying that there is necessarily anything wrong with that, BUT I do not think it is unreasonable for someone of European descent to be a little skeptical of tropical foods. Sort of like how I would think someone of African descent might (rightly) avoid dairy products, whereas I personally do very well on them.

I think coconuts and tropical fruits are wonderful foods, I merely wonder if they are best-suited for someone whose ancestors crawled out of a hut in Scotland a couple hundred years ago. That person might simply want to consider if berries would be a more suitable fruit for them to eat instead of mangoes.

Honestly, I am paleo but I even am willing to concede that some people's heritage would make grains reasonably okay, so long as those grains were prepared the traditional way. Same goes for dairy. Though with that I would add the caveat that it should be whole milk or naturally fermented dairy. (I THRIVE on whole milk kefir)

So far this is my list of things NO ONE does well on:

HFCS
Sugar
Fruit Juices
Corn (as it is bred/prepared today)
Wheat (as it is bred/prepared today)
Seed Oils
Soy (as it is bred/prepared today)
Low-fat dairy products
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  #104   ^
Old Mon, Jun-04-12, 05:12
WereBear's Avatar
WereBear WereBear is offline
Posts: 10,498
 
Plan: Epi-Paleo/IF
Stats: 220/161/150 Female 67
BF:
Progress: 84%
Location: USA
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Paleo has taught me that eating something doesn't make it "food." This can be true on a species-wide basis; Wheatbelly makes this case for modern wheat. It can be true on a personal basis; I get along with things that others do not, and vice versa.

How can choosing unprocessed foods be a bad thing? How can that possibly be bad for us?

Nutritionists don't ask these questions because they can't answer them.
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  #105   ^
Old Mon, Jun-04-12, 07:11
leemack's Avatar
leemack leemack is offline
NEVER GIVING UP!
Posts: 5,030
 
Plan: no sugar/grains LCHF IF
Stats: 478/354/200 Female 5' 9"
BF:excessive!!
Progress: 45%
Location: UK
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WereBear
Paleo has taught me that eating something doesn't make it "food." This can be true on a species-wide basis; Wheatbelly makes this case for modern wheat. It can be true on a personal basis; I get along with things that others do not, and vice versa.

How can choosing unprocessed foods be a bad thing? How can that possibly be bad for us?



Absolutely, when a health professional asks about my diet, I generally say I eat mainly natural unprocessed food - and get the response that the diet is great. The few times I've slipped and said paleo, I get confused looks and mumblings about it being a fad diet.

The way I see it is that I'm not trying to replicate a way of living. A paleo dude wouldn't be refusing sweet fruit or honey, whereas I do. I would say my diet is inspired by evidence of the health status of paleo and modern hunter gatherer groups and is more about what they didn't eat (processed crap) than arguing about whether individual items are paleo. If you're healthy and the food is edible in its natural and unprocessed form (with cooking if required), or could have minimal processing in a basic kitchen, then eat at will. If we're not healthy then food choices have to be curtailed a bit more.

Unfortunately while 'science' and 'nutrition education' is sponsored by large companies and lobbying groups that are dependant on people eating processed foods to ensure profits, it will be very difficult for the right information on nutrition to become mainstream. There is also a liability issue of many years of government recommendations that high carb, high grain was the right way to eat. I could imagine the correlations between lobbying, campaign contributions and opinions and votes making a viable class action suit. Unfortunately government, business and media are so intertwined that I consider all 'official' and media recommendations to be possibly tainted and therefore subject to question.

The internet is the greatest advance there has been to enable individual power and knowledge, at a time where corporations (allied with government) are seeking to strip individuals of power and knowledge in order to facilitate ever increasing profits.

Wow this turned into a rant - sorry about that. Better stop there.


Lee
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