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  #61   ^
Old Fri, Oct-18-13, 09:33
Seejay's Avatar
Seejay Seejay is offline
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Plan: Optimal Diet
Stats: 00/00/00 Female 62 inches
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PowerGoat it's according to a person's capacity to burn glucose. How much muscle and intense activity. If you're doing a ton of glucose-burning exercise, then you are not eating excess glucose. And it's the excess glucose that's the problem.

For example imagine a 180 pound man does 2 hours of high intensity exercise on a heavy training day. Say 1200 calories. Of which, 60% from glucose and 40% from fat, so that's 800 calories of glucose needed, so 200 grams of CHO. I would imagine he wouldn't need as much CHO since he's fat adapted, but intense exercise is just plain sugar burning.

Those of us who do Primal Blueprint style exercise, such that we do such hard training only once or twice a week, can get all that glucose from the glycogen replaced a little every day. Not like we need that much every single day.
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  #62   ^
Old Sun, Oct-20-13, 21:19
PowerGoat PowerGoat is offline
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Plan: Volek & Phinney
Stats: 140/132/122 Male 69 inches
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Hi Seejay,

Okay, I understand. This is a somewhat different idea than the thing I'm trying. So with the Primal Blueprint style, the income can be modified by the outgoing (burned) CHO. As long as burned exceeds taken in, you're good. Okay. The way I'm doing it, the CHO is kept at under 50g/day (better at 20) no matter what you're burning. It has to do with straight incoming glucose, not what you're burning.

Since reading your post, I went on to Mark Sisson's sites and was reading a bit about it. Looks good. I bookmarked it and will be back reading more on the Daily Apple site. Thanks for the explanation. This would also explain Tim Olson's use of gels during races.

The next two things I'm going to look for are: 1) would these carbs be eaten immediately after the exercise--or at least with protein--to dampen the insulin response? and, 2) if the body runs better on fats, why not give it fats during a long race (like a 100 mile run)? This is related to a question I've been asking on a few low-carb, high-fat sites and still haven't gotten any useful answer to yet: what should a low-carb, high-fat distance runner eat during a multi-hour event? I'm not going to bring a can of olive oil or a tub of veggie dip--despite 20gms of fat and 0-2 gms CHO per serving--to a race...but other than nuts, which also do have carbs, what else is relatively easy to bring and eat during a race?

This is a fascinating new area for me--until five weeks ago, I was a 30+ year vegetarian. I just started using ketone test strips and am interested in seeing how those numbers go as I journey through this low-carb lifestyle.

Thank you very much for the response, Seejay.








Quote:
Originally Posted by Seejay
PowerGoat it's according to a person's capacity to burn glucose. How much muscle and intense activity. If you're doing a ton of glucose-burning exercise, then you are not eating excess glucose. And it's the excess glucose that's the problem.

For example imagine a 180 pound man does 2 hours of high intensity exercise on a heavy training day. Say 1200 calories. Of which, 60% from glucose and 40% from fat, so that's 800 calories of glucose needed, so 200 grams of CHO. I would imagine he wouldn't need as much CHO since he's fat adapted, but intense exercise is just plain sugar burning.

Those of us who do Primal Blueprint style exercise, such that we do such hard training only once or twice a week, can get all that glucose from the glycogen replaced a little every day. Not like we need that much every single day.
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  #63   ^
Old Mon, Oct-21-13, 09:19
greatgooga's Avatar
greatgooga greatgooga is offline
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Plan: Atkins
Stats: 267/230/200 Male 6' 1"
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PowerGoat

2) if the body runs better on fats, why not give it fats during a long race (like a 100 mile run)?


Interesting that you should ask. I ride the Seagull Century bike ride (100 miles, 6.5 hours) a couple of weekends ago. I wanted to make sure that I was in ketosis for the ride and kept my carbs at or below 20g for an entire month beforehand.

The morning of the ride I had 4 whole scrambled eggs and about 5 oz. of home made sausage. During the ride I ate homemade PEMMICAN! If you haven't heard of it, pemmican is dried pulverized beef mixed 50/50 with beef tallow. I added a few spices to make it palatable.

Despite 93 deg. heat, I finished strong and never got hungry or cramped. I've been told that endurance athletes perform in a state of ketosis, allowing them to go longer without refueling.

Goog
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  #64   ^
Old Mon, Oct-21-13, 11:49
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Seejay Seejay is offline
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Plan: Optimal Diet
Stats: 00/00/00 Female 62 inches
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PowerGoat
2) if the body runs better on fats, why not give it fats during a long race (like a 100 mile run)? This is related to a question I've been asking on a few low-carb, high-fat sites and still haven't gotten any useful answer to yet: what should a low-carb, high-fat distance runner eat during a multi-hour event?
Have you seen this post by Alan Couzens, he talks about fuel use during a multi-hour event. Really fascinating to me too.

What you eat during the multi-hour seems to depend on how fat adapted you are. The more fat adapted, the longer glucose lasts. So maybe you could get by with something like pemmican. Wellness Meats sells it with cherries, I never tried it but maybe that's why the fruit is in there - in case glucose from all sources is running out.

I have a marathon running friend that just freezes blobs of peanut butter, banana, and protein powder.

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Quote:
At typical marathon intensities for the average runner (~17-18kcal/min) the average athlete will be out of juice before the 2hr mark. Unless your name is Haile Gebrsellassie, this obviously presents a problem :-)

In fact, the longer the race becomes, the more the limiter becomes metabolic rather than aerobic, as many formidable 10K runners discover when they try their first marathon. Quick example - Two athletes (both 160lb).

From the table, obviously athlete A is traditionally ‘fitter’ with that big VO2max that we would all like to have. However, assuming similar glycogen stores and running economy and all of those contributing variables, Athlete B will take longer to fatigue because at that pace of running, costing 18kcal/min for both runners, Athlete B is able to kick in 10% or 1.8kcal of the energy from fat. Therefore in carbohydrate terms, it is only costing him 16.2kcal/min. Or, put another way, like the Energizer Bunny, he just lasts longer!!


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  #65   ^
Old Sun, May-10-15, 06:57
defiant324 defiant324 is offline
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Plan: Atkins
Stats: 200/200/140 Female 5'6"
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Default Low Carb Nutrition Bicycling 3 + hours

I switched to a low carb diet 3-4 weeks ago. I work out with weights 4 times a week & haven't had any problems in the gym, but I'm still trying to find the right snack to bring along on my bike rides. So far I haven't been all too successful. In the past, I had issues with saddle discomfort which prevented me from doing rides longer than 10-15 miles, but I finally solved that problem & I no longer have any issues standing in my way of doing longer rides EXCEPT bonking. I did a 25 mile ride last week & yesterday & bonked after approx. 15 miles, even though I started snacking 45 minutes into the ride. And the worst part is that I wasn't pushing hard on either ride & I was on an almost completely flat rail trail except for some minor variations & a few little hills that would barely be considered an incline by most people. Yesterday's bonk was worse than last week's. And I'm also finding that I don't have enough power & endurance for very short hills. (And I do mean VERY short). I had eggs & bacon for breakfast both times. Am I just one of those people whose body takes longer to adjust to the change in diet? The walnuts I ate during my ride yesterday didn't help at all. I don't know what I'm doing wrong.
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  #66   ^
Old Sun, May-10-15, 07:58
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Seejay Seejay is offline
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Plan: Optimal Diet
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How many hours after eating, was that bonk?
What are you eating nowadays?
What is your exercise program, daily and weekly?

It does sound to me like you ran out of glycogen / glucose.

If you're at Atkins induction level of carbs, and you're doing something every day like strength training and long bike rides, your body might not be making enough glucose for your exercise needs, yet.

it could be a matter of waiting for more adaptation, OR
you need more protein for gluconeogenesis, OR
you need more fat, OR
you need more slow carbs.

I like to think of the kinds of fuel as if fat were the gas in the car, and carbs are the spark plug energy. Exercise always needs some glucose as the muscle spark plugs. YOu need some to keep the engine running and since it's sparks, you really don't want more or less than you need.

In the case of a bonk, your metabolic engine quit. So how to make sure you have enough glucose in the spark plugs - that is, in muscle glycogen and the liver - for your bike rides?
I would check all three factors.
Make sure there's enough protein.
Make sure there's enough fat so you can spare glucose.
And make sure you replenish the glucose / glycogen burned in your exercise program. Either by having replenish days after intense exercise or having more than 20 g of carbs if you do it every day.
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  #67   ^
Old Mon, May-11-15, 05:36
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greatgooga greatgooga is offline
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Plan: Atkins
Stats: 267/230/200 Male 6' 1"
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Progress: 55%
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You bonked because your body hasn't completely switched over to burning ketones yet. It takes about a week to start producing them, then another 2 weeks (for me at least) to get your body used to using them as a fuel. When I first went on a ketogenic diet, I had the same issue. I went on a simple 15 mile ride, my usual route, and nearly had to walk my bike home. It took a full month before I was back to original form. Another month later I felt like superman. The best part is that your legs stop burning when you really crank. You'll know you have fully converted over because you no longer get the lactic acid buildup in your legs that makes them burn.

Quote:
Originally Posted by defiant324
I switched to a low carb diet 3-4 weeks ago. I work out with weights 4 times a week & haven't had any problems in the gym, but I'm still trying to find the right snack to bring along on my bike rides. So far I haven't been all too successful. In the past, I had issues with saddle discomfort which prevented me from doing rides longer than 10-15 miles, but I finally solved that problem & I no longer have any issues standing in my way of doing longer rides EXCEPT bonking. I did a 25 mile ride last week & yesterday & bonked after approx. 15 miles, even though I started snacking 45 minutes into the ride. And the worst part is that I wasn't pushing hard on either ride & I was on an almost completely flat rail trail except for some minor variations & a few little hills that would barely be considered an incline by most people. Yesterday's bonk was worse than last week's. And I'm also finding that I don't have enough power & endurance for very short hills. (And I do mean VERY short). I had eggs & bacon for breakfast both times. Am I just one of those people whose body takes longer to adjust to the change in diet? The walnuts I ate during my ride yesterday didn't help at all. I don't know what I'm doing wrong.
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  #68   ^
Old Mon, May-11-15, 07:39
greatgooga's Avatar
greatgooga greatgooga is offline
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Posts: 34
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 267/230/200 Male 6' 1"
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Progress: 55%
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BTW, you said you are trying to figure out what snack to bring on the ride. What did you bring when you bonked? To be honest, when I'm in ketosis and keeping my carbs below 20g, I dont' need anything at all on a ride, other than water (maybe some sugarless electrolytes). Are you sure you're in ketosis? If you're not quite there yet, you may still be using glucose as a primary fuel source and that will bonk you also.

Look for the signs that you're making and burning ketones. Do you have a metallic taste in your mouth? Are you peeing like a racehorse? Do you feel like you have an excess of energy? Mentally clear? less hungry, no desire for sweets or intrusive thought of food?

Goog
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  #69   ^
Old Mon, May-11-15, 17:26
defiant324 defiant324 is offline
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Plan: Atkins
Stats: 200/200/140 Female 5'6"
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Default Low Carb Nutrition Bicycling 3 + hours

To answer you question about being sure I'm in ketosis: no, I'm not entirely sure - I haven't gotten any ketostix yet, but I have been limiting my carbs to 20g or less & I have completely eliminated sugar from my diet. I rarely if ever drink coffee, stopped drinking soda (even diet soda). I drink either unsweetened tea or water. I haven't been drinking juice or eating any fruit. One thing I've noticed is that I haven't been as hungry as I was before & my cravings for sweets has diminished. I don't have a metallic taste in my mouth, I AM peeing like a racehorse, but I don't have tons of energy yet. I was feeling really crappy a week or two ago & did something I never do - I added a little bit of salt to my lunch & felt better immediately. As for my snack during rides, I brought walnuts. . I tried my 25 mile ride again this past Saturday & Sunday & both rides were a disaster. Especially Sunday (yesterday). And to experiment, I ate a protein bar yesterday that had about 20g of carbs in it & it didn't help at all. I'm sure the fact that it was 95 degrees yesterday didn't help, but I drank lots of water throughout the ride. Ultimately, I ended up having to walk the last mile back to my car. I may not only need to find a more effective snack for my rides, but also alter the timing that I eat. Apparently, 45 minutes into the ride is already too late. I may need to eat after 30 minutes.
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  #70   ^
Old Mon, May-11-15, 23:24
johnsf518 johnsf518 is offline
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Plan: Atkins
Stats: 180/149/150 Male 68
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The key for me to avoid bonking is to eat frequently, but carbs with high fat. Try cheese sticks and apple slices. My opinion(not worth 2 cents in these matters) is that bananas are too glycemic. Munching peanuts and staying very hydrated also helps me during a ride.
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  #71   ^
Old Tue, May-12-15, 05:28
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greatgooga greatgooga is offline
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Posts: 34
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 267/230/200 Male 6' 1"
BF:
Progress: 55%
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I going to stick with my original guess, you're producing ketones (based on your carb level) but your body is still learning to use them. Be patient. Dr. A talks about not exercising at all in the first few weeks of induction for this reason.

BTW, go ahead and try ketostix, but if you never get purple, that doesn't mean anything. I never got more than a pinkish color. A blood ketone meter is much more accurate....and MUCH more expensive.

Goog
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  #72   ^
Old Tue, May-12-15, 07:42
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Seejay Seejay is offline
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Plan: Optimal Diet
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Quote:
Originally Posted by defiant324
I tried my 25 mile ride again this past Saturday & Sunday & both rides were a disaster. Especially Sunday (yesterday). And to experiment, I ate a protein bar yesterday that had about 20g of carbs in it & it didn't help at all. I'm sure the fact that it was 95 degrees yesterday didn't help, but I drank lots of water throughout the ride. Ultimately, I ended up having to walk the last mile back to my car. I may not only need to find a more effective snack for my rides, but also alter the timing that I eat. Apparently, 45 minutes into the ride is already too late. I may need to eat after 30 minutes.
I still think you may be going into these rides glycogen-depleted from your previous days of exercise, and not adapted yet to use less glucose in your energy mix. So you have too little glucose anywhere - not stored in your muscle and liver, not incoming from carbs, not being made fast enough from protein and fat.

So, you could either wait it out while you get more adapted, or if you know you have a long ride the next day, I would just add some carbs right after your strength workouts where they go right to muscle glycogen. If you eat in the middle of the ride it has to be some fast-acting sugar - wouldn't it be better to already have it in the tank?

Did you google Sisson's "compromises for endurance athletes" ? if you exercise every day, glucose has to come from somewhere.
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  #73   ^
Old Tue, May-12-15, 10:57
cpsnow cpsnow is offline
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Plan: No added sugar/nostarches
Stats: 193/174/170 Male 6'-0"
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I am continually aware of the difficulty of getting clarity on issues of nutrition, low carb, and what one personally experiences. There are many explanations out there. I prefer to use my own self-experimentation, because at least there I have empirical data applied to me.

Having been very low carb (not currently, but moving back in that direction), for two years and an active distance cyclist and tennis player, I can tell you this: I had a long experience with ketosis, and I could not achieve comparable athletic performances without adding some carbs ahead of sports. This fixed the problem. I would go by your own experience; not every theoretical notion is applicable to each individual. Nutrition and physiology are very heterogenous, within limits.
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  #74   ^
Old Tue, May-12-15, 16:09
defiant324 defiant324 is offline
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Plan: Atkins
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I'll definitely check out "compromises for endurance athletes"... I think you're right about it taking more time for me to adapt. I'm going to try a gel pack next time I ride since its more fast-acting. And I may try using Sport Legs capsules too. I've used it before I was on the low carb diet from time to time.
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  #75   ^
Old Wed, May-13-15, 05:34
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greatgooga greatgooga is offline
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Plan: Atkins
Stats: 267/230/200 Male 6' 1"
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Progress: 55%
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Just a thought on carbing up for a ride. Are you exercizing/low carbing to lose weight, or for performance? I ask because I've been re-reading Gary Taubes' book (WWGF) again and he devotes an entire chapter to the notion that exercize does not help you lose weight, but instead makes you hungry.

My own experience is that, initially, there is a performance loss when you switch to a low carb diet, which you are experiencing. If you try to maintain your exercise regimen, you may be hampering weight loss. As you adapt, your energy level goes up and exercise is a natural consequence of the diet.

Carbing up for the ride may be enough to keep you from fully adapting. You may want to read "The Art and Science of Low Carb Performance" by Phinny and Volek if you are interested in high performance, but not nec. the weight loss.

Goog
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