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  #46   ^
Old Mon, Dec-31-12, 10:50
StuartB StuartB is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 146
 
Plan: atkins
Stats: 212/197/175 Male 5'11"
BF:
Progress: 41%
Location: Canada
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Interesting thread. I'm going to ride across Canada in a few months and I'm rather new to LC. I'll be riding, on average, 110kms/day. I would like to go as LC as I can, but I'm sure I'll have to supplement with extra carbs. I'll be riding for 2 1/2 or 3 months with a loaded bike, so that is a lot of energy to put out everyday, and doing it all on fat. I read Phinney's article, but I didn't read where anyone was doing such a long journey. It's interesting to hear your points of view.
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  #47   ^
Old Mon, Dec-31-12, 14:41
Rick 51 Rick 51 is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 33
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 282/240/200 Male 5' 7"
BF:
Progress: 51%
Location: Los Angeles, Ca
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Three months of riding every day? I'm jealous. I wish I could go with you.
When I did a one week ride of about that distance every day, according to my HRM I was burning about 5,000-7,500 calories per day. I think you will find that regardless of what you eat, you are going to lose weight.
Have fun, enjoy and keep us posted on the ride.
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  #48   ^
Old Sun, Mar-24-13, 09:02
rivarat rivarat is offline
New Member
Posts: 1
 
Plan: no specific
Stats: 267/192/175 Male 70 inches
BF:
Progress:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StuartB
Interesting thread. I'm going to ride across Canada in a few months and I'm rather new to LC. I'll be riding, on average, 110kms/day. I would like to go as LC as I can, but I'm sure I'll have to supplement with extra carbs. I'll be riding for 2 1/2 or 3 months with a loaded bike, so that is a lot of energy to put out everyday, and doing it all on fat. I read Phinney's article, but I didn't read where anyone was doing such a long journey. It's interesting to hear your points of view.


The LC diet should work as well for 2 days or 2 months all else being equal. What usually happens is folks, after biking for days on end, get fatigued and feel that they need to eat more or differently but what they really need to do is get more rest.
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  #49   ^
Old Mon, Apr-15-13, 13:08
Navyguy's Avatar
Navyguy Navyguy is offline
New Member
Posts: 8
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 245/216/199 Male 67
BF:
Progress: 63%
Location: Disc Golf, don't laugh :)
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I am kind of like a triathelete and I'm still working on weight loss so I don't eat any carbs to refuel EVER. Mainly nuts and "FAT BOMB"s if I need a snack but if my workouts are less than 1 1/2 hours i don't need to eat. Other wise I stick to meal hours and plan my workout prior to a meal. I always make sure I hydrate.
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  #50   ^
Old Mon, Apr-15-13, 16:00
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Seejay Seejay is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 3,018
 
Plan: Optimal Diet
Stats: 00/00/00 Female 62 inches
BF:
Progress: 8%
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Mark Sisson, who's an expert about low carb and endurance exercise, advocates some carbs after the first couple of hours, or if you're doing it every day. Just FYI if you haven't seen that article. "PB" stands for his Primal Blueprint book and advice.

http://www.marksdailyapple.com/prim.../#axzz2QZVM4TKp

Quote:
When you go for endurance training, you face (among other physical strains) the necessity of increased carb intake and all its negative results (e.g. inflammation, AGEs, impaired immune function, etc.). Myself, I had a half-gallon of ice cream, loaf of bread and cereal habit going to refuel every day for years. At the time, I didn’t see an obvious impact on my performance, but I later realized I was causing long term damage. A better, more Primal approach to a training diet includes meals full of veggies (universal recommendation, yes) as well as the judicious use of fruits and tubers for added “healthier than grains” carb sources. (Of course, your diet should include a hefty supply of protein and natural fats.)

On a PB-style low carb diet, with PB-style low training time, the body makes 200 grams of glycogen each day from fats and protein (and then we figure another 100 or so from your veggies and fruits). That gives you enough glycogen to fuel your brain, cruise through an average day and to be able to do a short hard workout – and then do it again the next day. However, when you train long every day (over an hour), your carb needs will increase. The key is discovering EXACTLY how many additional carb grams you need each day to refuel muscles, but also to keep insulin and fat storage to a minimum. Too few and you won’t recover from day-to-day. Too many and you’ll set yourself up for inflammation and unnecessary weight-gain.

Read more: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/prim.../#ixzz2QZWEDPDX
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  #51   ^
Old Tue, Apr-16-13, 08:19
Navyguy's Avatar
Navyguy Navyguy is offline
New Member
Posts: 8
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 245/216/199 Male 67
BF:
Progress: 63%
Location: Disc Golf, don't laugh :)
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Thanks, that was an interesting read. I read Mark's site everyday and I prescribe to alot of what he talks about. Each person is different and I've determined that I don't need those extra carbs to recover daily from training. As my mileage and times increase I'm experimenting with fueling.
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  #52   ^
Old Tue, Apr-16-13, 08:19
cpsnow cpsnow is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 112
 
Plan: No added sugar/nostarches
Stats: 193/174/170 Male 6'-0"
BF:
Progress: 83%
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That basically agrees with my experience. I add a banana or some berries if I need good performance over more than an hour. Maybe even a small amount of dark chocolate.
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  #53   ^
Old Tue, Apr-16-13, 22:47
Rick 51 Rick 51 is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 33
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 282/240/200 Male 5' 7"
BF:
Progress: 51%
Location: Los Angeles, Ca
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Quote:
Originally Posted by max7
I enjoy road biking and try to ride everyday during the summer. I try to do rides of 30 - 60 miles at least 3 times weekly. I began a low carb diet (Atkins) in April and limited my ride times and distances. I have begun riding longer distances and eating Oh Yeah protein bars to ensure that I do not "bonk" during the ride. Since, my weight loss has seemed to have stalled, I suspect the additonal protein bars may be the culprit. Does anyone have low carb suggestions to fuel by 3 - 4 hours bike rides ???
Thanks !!

Small zip lock baggies of nuts, I like salted pecan myself. macadamias are another good choice You can also get almond butter or peanut butter in single serving packs.
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  #54   ^
Old Wed, Apr-17-13, 08:28
greatgooga's Avatar
greatgooga greatgooga is offline
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Posts: 34
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 267/230/200 Male 6' 1"
BF:
Progress: 55%
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick 51
according to my HRM I was burning about 5,000-7,500 calories per day. I think you will find that regardless of what you eat, you are going to lose weight.


While you might think that, I have not had that experience, nor have I seen it when reading journals from people spending that kind of time in the saddle (try reading crazyguyonabike.com to see what I'm talking about).

Carbing up will be detrimental (no news there) but your body will still demand that you either consume enough calories to keep you going, or slow down. I bonked one day last summer on my Blue Ridge Parkway ride because I didn't get enough rest and used up all of my glycogen. I had to pull over and chow down on some macadamias and rest for about an hour. it got me going, but taught me a lesson on fuel vs. expenditure.

Goog
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  #55   ^
Old Wed, Apr-17-13, 08:30
greatgooga's Avatar
greatgooga greatgooga is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 34
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 267/230/200 Male 6' 1"
BF:
Progress: 55%
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rivarat
The LC diet should work as well for 2 days or 2 months all else being equal. What usually happens is folks, after biking for days on end, get fatigued and feel that they need to eat more or differently but what they really need to do is get more rest.



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  #56   ^
Old Fri, Jul-26-13, 09:09
CK1 CK1 is offline
New Member
Posts: 6
 
Plan: The Art & Science of Low
Stats: 195/180/170 Male 5'9"
BF:12
Progress: 60%
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I just ordered some VESPA for myself but have not tried it yet. May endurance athletes rave about it. Below is some info I received through various emails with one of the owners.

Here is a little about VESPA
What we have found in "fat-adapted" athletes who use VESPA is that strategic use of concentrated forms of carbohydrates actually works best. I believe this is mentioned in The Art & Science of Low Carbohydrate Performance. You may want to play with that....for a marathon a typical dinner is a medium rare ribeye or NY steak and a small baked potato buried in butter, sour cream and salt.early the night before a long run like a marathon.

The morning of a race some tea or coffee with heavy cream and a teaspoon of honey or sugar and perhaps a sourdough English Muffin with lots of butter a few hours prior.

Suggested method for using VESPA for a marathon or half is a CV-25 an hour before the start, long slow warmup (LSW), then a VESPA Junior right before the start. Then another CV-25 at the half marathon to 16 mile mark and perhaps a gel at mile 18-22 if you are really going hard. Some people take a VESPA Junior at hour 1 and hour 2 instead.

Proper hydration is key and most athletes do not get enough salt. Supplementing with a bio-available form of Magnesium is also recommended.

VESPA/OFM (for Optimized Fat Metabolism) does make "Strategic" use of concentrated forms of carbohydrates in the diet and for race fueling....I believe this is mentioned briefly in the book in the section where they talk about VESPA.

What we have observed is that in fat-adapted athletes using VESPA the occasional use of carbs in the diet and fueling actually enhances performance significantly. . . . even carbs work much better and sustainably in an OFM athlete! Ironically, the carbs yield better results using significantly less than what the athlete had to use prior to becoming fat-adapted and using VESPA.

What I have observed and heard from working with athletes is that using strict low carb and UCAN they have the ability to motor at a relatively high rate for extended periods of time but do not have that "extra gear" necessary for racing level performance or surges and sprints but when using VESPA with some strategic use of carbs they definitely feel they have the extra gear.

Naturally occurring Magnesium Salt. Take one or two after your larger meals. Keep them dry. During really high training volume taking Epsom Salt baths is also recommended to maintain Mg levels. Mg is a bit tricky because it is easily depleted and most athletes with a relatively high training volume are somewhat deficient in Mg....however, it is not easily replenished like Sodium, Potassium or Calcium....too much intake results in diarrhea (think Milk of magnesia). ....

If you are well fat-adapted taking a VESPA 30 minutes prior to your run, doing a good warmup and in a fasted state you should have no issue going for 2.5 - 3 hours without calories...

VESPA literally makes a fat adapted athlete "Blood Sugar Stable" because one way it works is to drive ketosis to produce ketone bodies to be utilized in place of sugar....ketone bodies actually "burn" cleaner and with less oxidative stress for most brain and nervous system functions and the heart also easily utilizes ketones as an energy substrate...

Now here is the interesting thing.....we have a handful of T1 diabetic athletes who know about VESPA and they report their blood sugar remains rock stable during their exercise of 1-2 hours like a run or hockey game etc.

VESPA when combined with Low Carb allows the use of carbs and in doing so they work like never before.....
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  #57   ^
Old Sat, Jul-27-13, 18:08
greatgooga's Avatar
greatgooga greatgooga is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 34
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 267/230/200 Male 6' 1"
BF:
Progress: 55%
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I suppose if you are already lean and in great athletic shape (i.e, you are already a high performance marathon/triathalete...whatever) you can get away with a higher carb intake. Dr. Atkins and Phinny/Volek discuss the idea that exercise reduces insulin resistance. If you are like me (and many other readers of this forum) you are still attempting to correct years of damage from eating too much sugar and you are not in the position to "tinker" with your carb intake.

I love reading Mark Sisson and his teaching have influenced my food choices. particularly in that I have a strong preference for quality foods, over just low carb foods. i don't buy Atkins bars (are they even available any more?) or processed foods and most foods i eat have one ingredient in them.

BUT...I dont' think he's ever been more than 10# over weight and is probably not dealing with the insulin resistance that a lot of us are. he was an elite athelete for years BEFORE he started his primal movement. His own experience is that he can eat a sweet potato before/after exercising and it "replaces his lost glycogen." My person experience is, I'm better off taking a day off the bike to recover, than eating that potato.

My 9 day ride through the Blue Ridge Mountains last summer did not include any days off, nor carbing up after a ride. I did consume macadamias along the way, which are a source of carbs, but I was still counting and kept the intake below 50g a day. I'm just not conviced that you need them.

Goog
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  #58   ^
Old Sun, Jul-28-13, 07:29
CK1 CK1 is offline
New Member
Posts: 6
 
Plan: The Art & Science of Low
Stats: 195/180/170 Male 5'9"
BF:12
Progress: 60%
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I agree with Goog... once you get you insulin under control for a while you can start by using more low GI carbs on heavy training days. Ben Greenfield a world renown extreme endurance athlete and coach talks about this on his site. http://www.bengreenfieldfitness.com/ He is training for the iron man triathlon in Canada in Aug and remaining keto adapt the entire time and using up to 200 grams of carbs on heavy training days.
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  #59   ^
Old Thu, Oct-17-13, 23:42
PowerGoat PowerGoat is offline
New Member
Posts: 4
 
Plan: Volek & Phinney
Stats: 140/132/122 Male 69 inches
BF:
Progress:
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Right, but Timothy ate gels during the race.
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  #60   ^
Old Thu, Oct-17-13, 23:45
PowerGoat PowerGoat is offline
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Posts: 4
 
Plan: Volek & Phinney
Stats: 140/132/122 Male 69 inches
BF:
Progress:
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CK1, did he explain how can he eat up to 200gms of CHO per day on heavy training days and still be fat-adapted? The Johns Hopkins Hospital keeps epilepsy patients under 20gms/day. ???
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