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  #1   ^
Old Fri, Jun-24-11, 14:24
anita45 anita45 is offline
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Default Crash course diet reverses Type 2 diabetes in a week

BBC News
24/06/2011

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-13887909

Type 2 diabetes in newly diagnosed 'can be reversed'

'An extreme eight-week diet of 600 calories a day can reverse Type 2 diabetes in people newly diagnosed with the disease, says a Diabetologia study'
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  #2   ^
Old Fri, Jun-24-11, 14:46
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Angeline Angeline is offline
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  #3   ^
Old Fri, Aug-24-12, 14:36
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Sugar_Free Sugar_Free is offline
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Default Crash course diet reverses Type 2 diabetes in a week

Has anyone seen this? I'm still not clear on what kind of diet it is (other than low calorie). Non-starchy vegetables are mentioned, but so is removing fat. (Link: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/8...-in-a-week.html )

Quote:
Crash course diet reverses Type 2 diabetes in a week

Britain's 2.5 million people with Type 2 diabetes are offered new hope today as scientists show the disease can be reversed in as little as seven days by going on a crash-course diet.

Adhering to the strict 600 calorie-a-day diet causes fat levels in the pancreas to plummet, restoring normal function, found Prof Roy Taylor of Newcastle University.

The discovery, a "radical change" in understanding of the condition, holds out the possibility that sufferers could cure themselves -if they have the willpower.

Until recently received medical wisdom was that Type 2 diabetes was largely irreversible.

But this small-scale study indicates that defeating it could be easier than commonly thought.

Prof Taylor asked 11 volunteers, all recently diagnosed, to go on what he admitted was an "extreme diet" of specially formulated drinks and non-starchy vegetables, for eight weeks.

After just a week, pre-breakfast ('fasting') blood sugar levels had returned to normal, suggesting a resumption of correct pancreas function.

After eight weeks, all had managed to reverse their diabetes. Three months on, seven remained free of it.

Prof Taylor explained that too much fat "clogged up" the operation of the pancreas at a cellular level, preventing normal secretion of insulin which regulates blood sugar.

When this fat was removed -by way of the diet -normal function resumed.

He said: "This is a radical change in understanding Type 2 diabetes. It will change how we can explain it to people newly diagnosed with the condition.

More...
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  #4   ^
Old Fri, Aug-24-12, 15:15
femur femur is offline
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Yes, this article is pretty old, I remember first reading it about a year ago maybe?

IIRC, it was basically shakes and small portions of meat/green veggies, sounds like a modified Stillman's or PSMF.

Makes sense that it would improve insulin markers.
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  #5   ^
Old Fri, Aug-24-12, 20:32
M Levac M Levac is offline
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Quote:
After one week of the diet, researchers found that the pre-breakfast blood sugar levels of all participants had returned to normal.

That's quick.
Quote:
"This diet was only used to test the hypothesis that if people lose substantial weight they will lose their diabetes.

Wait, and what hypothesis says it can happen before any substantial weight loss, as the study ultimately showed?
Quote:
"It's easy to take a pill, but harder to change lifestyle for good. Asking people to shift weight does actually work," she said.

But the study showed that weight loss was not required, therefore asking people to "shift weight" is not required either.
Quote:
"It all depends on how much individuals are susceptible to diabetes. We need to find out why some people are more susceptible than others, then target these obese people. We can't know the reasons for that in this study," Dr Lim said.

Seems to me your mind is already made up about that, Dr Lim. Why waste perfectly good research time just to confirm your convictions?
Quote:
"We have known that starvation is a good cure for diabetes. If we introduced rationing tomorrow, then we could get rid of diabetes in this country.

But you still don't know why starvation is a good cure, or you wouldn't suggest it. Starvation is a shotgun approach. The implication is that food is toxic, and the effect is diabetes. The absurdity is mind boggling.
Quote:
"If you can catch people with diabetes in the early stages while beta cells are still functioning, then you can delay its onset for years, but you will get it sooner or later because it's in the system."

Excuse me, Mr Edwin Gale, but you are a professor and a diabetes expert, yes? You do know you're talking about diabetes type 2, right? Where beta cells is not the problem here, insulin resistance is.
Quote:
"This study shows that a period of marked weight loss can produce the same reversal of Type 2 diabetes.

No, this study shows that a short period immediately following the start of a semi-starvation diet will remove diabetes type 2 before any significant weight loss occurs.
Quote:
"Such a drastic diet should only be undertaken under medical supervision. Despite being a very small trial, we look forward to future results particularly to see whether the reversal would remain in the long term."

Highly unlikely. If food is toxic and the effect is diabetes, and if semi-starvation is the cure, then we'll end up with emaciated and neurotic diabetics.

Here's an idea, what if we only reduced the intake of whatever caused blood glucose to rise directly, huh? It would be like reducing arsenic intake as the first-line therapy in cases of arsenic poisoning. What's the harm in trying?

Methinks these "experts" should have attended the Metabolism, Diet and Disease Conference. http://forum.lowcarber.org/showthread.php?t=445611

I'm being more than my usual sarcastic today. Ugh.
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  #6   ^
Old Sat, Aug-25-12, 00:53
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gonwtwindo gonwtwindo is offline
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Yeah, and as soon as they go back to to a normal diet their diabetes "returns".

P.s. Once you have diabetes, you always have diabetes - if you don't eat enough carbohydrate (like a 600 calorie diet) your blood sugar won't rise. Just like on LC...if your carb level is low enough your blood sugar stays low. But you are not cured. Eat carbs, and watch your blood sugar rise again.
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  #7   ^
Old Sat, Aug-25-12, 08:33
M Levac M Levac is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gonwtwindo
P.s. Once you have diabetes, you always have diabetes - if you don't eat enough carbohydrate (like a 600 calorie diet) your blood sugar won't rise. Just like on LC...if your carb level is low enough your blood sugar stays low. But you are not cured. Eat carbs, and watch your blood sugar rise again.

That's the official stance, yes.

Well, since hyperglycemia is the primary symptom of diabetes type 2, and since eating carbs causes hyperglycemia, then not eating carbs cures hyperglycemia therefore cures diabetes. Put differently, if blood glucose is normal, there is no diabetes.

Insulin resistance is also a characteristic symptom of diabetes type 2, since it causes hyperglycemia down the line, as well as hyperinsulinemia. Not eating carbs cures that too.

But forget my arguments, check this out instead:

http://www.diabetes-warrior.net/

Steve himself doesn't say he's cured. But his experiments say he is anyway.

Insulin resistance is also caused by other things besides carbs. This means if whatever causes insulin resistance is not taken care of besides avoiding carbs, one will remain more sensitive to carbs thereby giving the impression that diabetes is not cured by avoiding carbs. But then one only finds that out when one eats carbs again. This suggests that doing low-carb for a while then eating lots of carbs for a short period then measuring the effect on blood glucose can be used as a diagnostic tool that allows one to determine if there's more than just carbs involved in this case. In Steve's case for example, it seems carbs were the only culprit.

It's important to note that diabetes type 2 is not clear-cut. It's not a difference between no BG rise whatsoever and any BG rise. It's an arbitrarily chosen difference between a X BG rise and a Y BG rise. In other words, the same thing that is seen as toxic in diabetes is seen as good for other people, even if the only difference is in the amplitude. That problem doesn't exist when we look at obvious poisons like arsenic for example. Arsenic is poisonous no matter the dose, but of course the amplitude will depend on the dose. In one test used to diagnose diabetes type 2 - OGTT - the threshold for diabetes type 2 is surpassed even in healthy humans. This particular test means it's OK to be diabetic, but only temporarily, not longer than the arbitrarily chosen threshold. The whole thing is puzzling.

Last edited by M Levac : Sat, Aug-25-12 at 08:49.
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  #8   ^
Old Sat, Aug-25-12, 09:53
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Sugar_Free Sugar_Free is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by femur
Yes, this article is pretty old, I remember first reading it about a year ago maybe?

IIRC, it was basically shakes and small portions of meat/green veggies, sounds like a modified Stillman's or PSMF.

Makes sense that it would improve insulin markers.


I'm sorry, I was so preoccupied with trying to figure out if this was low-carb I didn't nktice the date! I didn't remember seeing it before.
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  #9   ^
Old Sat, Aug-25-12, 12:09
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RawNut RawNut is offline
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Shelley at Me and My Diabetes was producing no more than 3 units of insulin when she was diagnosed. Now, she's passing OGTT and is producing 29 units of insulin during the test. This suggests her beta cells actually recovered. Maybe It's a matter of semantics but it sounds like "cured" to me.

If you cure a fatty liver on low carb, isn't it still cured even though it'll likely come back with the return of the diet that caused it in the first place?
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  #10   ^
Old Sun, Aug-26-12, 06:15
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WereBear WereBear is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RawNut
If you cure a fatty liver on low carb, isn't it still cured even though it'll likely come back with the return of the diet that caused it in the first place?


That would be my take, as well.

I think calling diabetes a "disease" is a misconception that is getting in the way of understanding it. It's more like an allergic reaction to carbs.

Stress can make me break out in hives. Carbs make me break out in fat!
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  #11   ^
Old Sun, Aug-26-12, 13:28
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Mandra Mandra is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WereBear
I think calling diabetes a "disease" is a misconception that is getting in the way of understanding it. It's more like an allergic reaction to carbs.
!


Or maybe even carbohydrate poisoning? If you remove the "poison" and your body heals, you are cured, unless you take more poison.
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  #12   ^
Old Mon, Aug-27-12, 02:41
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gonwtwindo gonwtwindo is offline
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It's a disorder.

People without diabetes can eat a bag of Snickers and still have a BG of 70. No diabetic could do that, even a "cured" one.
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  #13   ^
Old Mon, Aug-27-12, 10:27
M Levac M Levac is offline
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If diabetes type 2 is not a symptom of carbohydrate poisoning (perhaps exacerbated by other conditions such as infections, inflammation or other kinds of poisoning like arsenic for example), then what's the cause?

It's obviously not genetic. Our genes have not changed that much. It could be epigenetic but then that's just another way of saying it's some kind of poisoning or deficiency, but the poisoning was done by our parents, we just inherited the symptoms. The point is that there is a cause. Things don't just happen, diabetes type 2 included.

But then not everybody develops diabetes type 2 by eating tons of carbs. And when we go low-carb, we cut all carbs, not just some of them. So if it's just a symptom of carbohydrate poisoning, it could be due to only some kinds of carbs, like wheat for example. Or some kinds of carbs make us diabetic more quickly or at a lower dose than others, like wheat for example. To use my favorite analogy, if diabetes is like banging one's thumb with a hammer repetitively, then those who don't suffer from that could have such a hard thumb that it would require a really big hammer for a much longer period of time to make a dent, but we'd eventually make that dent.

If I use my own understanding of diabetes as merely one of many symptoms of carbohydrate poisoning, then those who don't develop diabetes would surely develop a different symptom, though it's anybody's guess what that's going to be specifically. Here again it might be a question of the kinds of carbs.

If diabetes type 2 is a disorder, there must be a cause. Obesity is also a disorder, a disorder of excess fat accumulation. We understand the mechanisms, we understand the causes, we understand not everybody grows fat, we understand the cure too. The cure in this case is a permanent change in our carbohydrate intake. Add back carbs and obesity comes raging back. With obesity, here too there are other things that can exacerbate the condition. After all, obesity is not created only by eating carbs. For example some drugs make us fat through the same mechanisms.

With infections for example, the cure is to eliminate the pathogen with antibiotics. The effect is permanent, unless and until the pathogen returns. Until the cause returns. From that point of view, there is no difference between a cure for infections and a cure for diabetes type 2. The cause must be removed. The effect must be permanent. If the treatment must also be permanent for the effect to be permanent, then that's how it's cured. But it is still cured. Unless and until the cause returns.

If we believe instead that low-carb merely hides diabetes, then we have to ask why would it do that. And again there must be a cause. The obvious answer is that carbs cause blood glucose to rise, insulin to rise, insulin resistance to rise, and merely exacerbate the condition, not cause it in the first place. But carbs cause blood glucose to rise, insulin to rise, insulin resistance to rise, in everybody, not just those who develop diabetes. And the way we measure diabetes involves a time-lapse whereby those who surpass it are diabetic, those who don't aren't. But then when somebody eats more carbs, this time-lapse also increases by comparison. This means if the OGTT test was done with a variable amount of glucose solution, then everybody could be diagnosed with diabetes if the dose was large enough for each and everyone of us. In a way, this means the cause of diabetes is glucose itself. This means the cause of diabetes as measured by the OGTT test, is the OGTT test itself.

*In science, this would be a variation of the observer effect. With the OGTT test, the observation tool interferes with the target of our observation. Besides the obvious paradox of introducing a toxic substance to test for a condition that makes this substance toxic in the first place.

Most of you would find it wrong that a doctor would advise his patients to eat 300g of carbs if they were diabetic, am I right? It just doesn't make sense that a doctor would advise his patient to do something that will most certainly and knowingly exacerbate or worsen his condition. For a broken leg for example, a doctor wouldn't advise his patient to go out for a jog or lift heavy weights. He'd say stay in bed for a few weeks to allow the bone to heal, then go see this physio guy and he'll help you make this leg strong again, so you can walk again. Yet that's not what doctors advise for diabetes. They advise to eat tons of carbs anyway. It makes the OGTT test sort of unethical. OK, we'll just make you eat something that will make you sick, just to see if you are sick. OK, we'll just bend your leg here like so in an unnatural fashion that would indicate to us that your leg is indeed broken, just to see if your leg is broken. It makes no sense, but it certainly says a lot about how we see glucose. It's quite the paradox actually. We see glucose as good because obviously we wouldn't make patients eat 75g of it in one sitting just to see if they're diabetic. But we see glucose as toxic in diabetics because it obviously is when it rises above a certain threshold. I mean, we know it's bad, but we know it's good. But I digress.

Maybe we see diabetes type 2 differently from other diseases because of this paradox above. But I have an easy solution to this. Take what we're certain of, and ignore what we're not. We're certain that glucose is toxic when it rises above a certain point. But we're not certain it's food because not all foods contain glucose. Eliminate the uncertainty, keep the certainty. Paradox gone. So how does this help me determine what diabetes type 2 is, and what the treatment is, and if we can actually cure it? Well, isn't it obvious?

Last edited by M Levac : Mon, Aug-27-12 at 10:45.
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  #14   ^
Old Mon, Aug-27-12, 10:54
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Ghaleon Ghaleon is offline
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Six hundred calories a day? I can eat 600 calories in one meal and I'm still hungry. On a few occasions (to lower my body fat to the single digits) I have eaten 1500 calories a day and I consider it "starving myself to death." Take into account I was eating a lot of fat and protein at that time and very few carbs (less than 50 g a day), which supposedly satiated me more than otherwise.

That type of diet is not sustainable. The best type of diet is the one you can maintain for the long run.
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  #15   ^
Old Mon, Aug-27-12, 23:30
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gonwtwindo gonwtwindo is offline
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IMHO diabetes is more a disorder: the inability to metabolize carbohydrates.

A poison is a substance that, when introduced into or absorbed by a living organism, causes death or injury, esp. one that kills by rapid action. (thank you google)

I think it is a stretch to say carbohydrates are a poison. They don't cause death or injury to everyone, like arsenic would for example.
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