Insulin resistance is strongly associated with liver iron
overload syndrome. associations that have been reported
between increased body iron stores and cancerous,
cardio-vascular and hepatic disorders. T

Also I ran stepwise regression on ALL variables and how they
predict insulin levels and only lead and iron and the
following showed up as significant in decreasing order of
significance it accounted for 40% of the variance in insulin..
i've emailed a person who is doing research on population
studies and insulin to see what they think:

Lead (ug/dL)(+) Serum iron (ug/dL(+) Lead (ug/dL)(-)
SerumIron(+) Serum TIBC (ug/dL)(+) SerumLead(+) Lead
(ug/dL)(+) Serum folate (ng/mL)(+) Erythrocyte protoporphyrin
(ug/dL)(+)

  >Insulin resistance is strongly associated with liver iron
  >overload syndrome.

Liver is supposed to respond to insulin. A vanadium
deficiency or an iron excess may impair this response. I
don't think that your observation that iron over load is
linked to insulin resistence is new because iron over load
syndrome is an area of research that has been and continues
to be intensely studied because this may be the most common
genetic defect in humans.

I'd be interested to learn what kind of response you get from
your email. Marty B "You are what you eat"

  > Lead (ug/dL)(+) Serum iron (ug/dL(+) Lead (ug/dL)(-)
  > SerumIron(+) Serum TIBC (ug/dL)(+) SerumLead(+) Lead
  > (ug/dL)(+) Serum folate (ng/mL)(+) Erythrocyte
  > protoporphyrin (ug/dL)(+)

Here, lead=iron=tibc=protoporphyrin

so that,

x y z 1 1 2 2 50 50 3 1 1 4 50 50 5 1 1 6 50 50 7 1 1 8 50 50
9 1 1 10 50 50 11 1 1 12 50 50 13 1 1

x=y+z R^2=0.45

multicollinearity.. in fact x does NOT equal y+z.. but there
is an infinite amount of equations to force x=y+z..

hehe that was pointed out to me quite mildly in an
e-mail.. i'm obviously new to stats.. interesting
literature review though

mypcos~hotmail.com (Wuzzy) wrote ...

"Watchman may be right."

Well, I suppose "iron" is bound to be the right answer to
some question.

-Jay

mbansch314~aol.com (Martin Banschbach Ph.D.) wrote in message
news:<20020203141100.21471.00000940~mb-fa.aol.com>...
     > >Insulin resistance is strongly associated with liver iron
     > >overload syndrome.
  >
  > Liver is supposed to respond to insulin.

Apparently I'm the only one that didn't know this:

Correlations ahve been found in several population studies..
1: Diabetes Care 1997 Mar;20(3):426-8 Body iron stores are
associated with serum insulin and blood glucose
concentrations. Population study in 1,013 eastern
Finnish men.

Tuomainen TP, Nyyssonen K, Salonen R, Tervahauta A, Korpela H,
Lakka T, Kaplan GA, Salonen JT.

Research Institute of Public Health, University of
Kuopio, Finland.

OBJECTIVE: To study if there is an association between mildly
elevated body iron and glucose homeostasis indexes. RESEARCH
DESIGN AND METHODS: A cross-sectional population study was
conducted in 1,013 middle-aged men, and an association of
serum ferritin with concentrations of serum insulin, blood
glucose, and serum fructosamine was tested. RESULTS: The mean
concentration of fasting serum insulin was 21.6% higher (95%
CI 7.3-37.9%, P < 0.001) in the 5th quintile of serum ferritin
compared with the 1st quintile. The elevation in blood glucose
was 6.1% (95% CI 2.3-9.9%, P < 0.001) and in serum
fructosamine 3.9% (1.5-6.9%, P < 0.01). CONCLUSIONS: Mildly
elevated body iron stores are associated with statistically
significant elevations in glucose homeostasis indexes.

PMID: 9051399 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Small search turned up:

Low iron status and enhanced insulin sensitivity in lacto-ovo
vegetarians BRIT J NUTR 86 (4): 515-519 OCT 2001

Plasma ferritin and type 2 diabetes mellitus: A critical
review ENDOCR RES 27 (1-2): 91-97 2001

Gestational diabetes mellitus in the last trimester - a
feature of maternal iron excess? DIABETIC MED 18 (3):
218-223 MAR 2001

Association of serum ferritin and indices of body fat
distribution and obesity in Mexican American men - the Third
National Health and Nutrition Examination Survey INT J OBESITY
25 (5): 639-645 MAY 2001

Is diabetes mellitus a sufficient condition to suspect
hemochromatosis? DIABETES METAB 26 (4): 318-321 SEP 2000

Excess iron storage in patients with type 2 diabetes unrelated
to primary hemochromatosis NEW ENGL J MED 343 (12): 891-891
SEP 21 2000

C virus, iron and sugar MED CLIN-BARCELONA 115 (1): 25-26
JUN 3 2000

Serum ferritin in healthy subjects and type 2 diabetic
patients YONSEI MED J 41 (3): 387-392 JUN 2000

Diabetes and serum ferritin concentration among US adults
DIABETES CARE 22 (12): 1978-1983 DEC 1999

Insulin resistance-associated hepatic iron overload
GASTROENTEROLOGY 117 (5): 1155-1163 NOV 1999

Insulin resistance-associated hepatic iron overload
GASTROENTEROLOGY 117 (5): 1155-1163 NOV 1999

Macdonald GA, Powell LW More clues to the relationship
between hepatic iron and steatosis: An association
with insulin resistance? GASTROENTEROLOGY 117 (5):
1241-1244 NOV 1999

Iron loading and disease surveillance EMERG INFECT DIS 5 (3):
346-352 MAY-JUN 1999

Effect of phlebotomy on plasma glucose and insulin
concentrations DIABETES CARE 21 (12): 2190-2190 DEC 1998

Relation between iron stores and non-insulin dependent
diabetes in men: case-control study BRIT MED J 317 (7160):
727-727 SEP 12 1998

Association between body iron stores and the risk of acute
myocardial infarction in men CIRCULATION 97 (15): 1461-1466
APR 21 1998

Serum ferritin as a component of the insulin resistance
syndrome DIABETES CARE 21 (1): 62-68 JAN 1998

Its even been done on my population so i wasted my time
running the query..

From the Brit J Nutrition article, " Vegetarians often consume
considerable amounts of Ca-enriched products (in particular,
cheese). A variety of studies have shown that Ca salts also
significantly inhibit intestinal Fe absorption as well
(Anderson et al. 1940; Cook et al. 1991; Hallberg et al.
1991). Thus, low v. high dietary Fe bioavailability is likely
to account for differences in Fe status among vegetarians and
meat-eaters."

So the association of calcium with body weight appears to
parrallel inversely with association with iron..

basically vegetarians get more phytates that inhibit
non-haeme iron absorption as well as meat-eaters having
higher haeme iron.

Is haeme iron present in non-red meats? This further
supports reducing red meat diets, but i'm not sure what to
say about poultry..

Also the relationship appears to be causal as can be inferred
from phlebotomy and how it improves sensitivity to insulin..

"In conclusion, LO vegetarians are more insulin sensitive than
meat-eaters. This metabolic feature appears to be secondary to
decreased body Fe in LO vegetarians compared with
meat-eaters."

One theory about the protective effects of wine on diabetes is
that it reduces iron stores:

Effect of wine ethanol on serum iron and ferritin levels in
patients with coronary heart disease NUTRITION METABOLISM AND
CARDIOVASCULAR DISEASES
11 (3): 176-180 JUN 2001 Background and Aim: The association
between high body iron stores and coronary heart disease
(CHD) is a subject of intense debate whereas wi I ne
consumption is known to be associated with a low CHD
rate. It has been suggested that the inhibition of iron
absorption is one of the possible mechanisms of the
CHD-protective effects of drinking.

Methods and Results: We analysed the interrelationships of
wine ethanol intake and fasting serum ferritin, iron and gamma
glutamyl transferase (GGT) in patients enrolled in the Lyon
Diet Heart Study, a secondary prevention trial designed to
test whether a Mediterranean-type diet may protect against
CHD. The intake of wine ethanol was evaluated in the 24 hours
preceding blood sampling, and expressed as a percentage of the
total daily energy, intake. Data were obtained from 437
consecutive patients. There was a positive relationship
(Spearman statistics) between wine ethanol and the serum
levels of iron (r=0.21, p <0.0001), ferritin (r=0.23, p
<0.0001) and GGT (r=031, p <.0001). Uni- and multilinear
regression analyses after excluding non-drinkers and log
transforming the variables Yielded similar results.

Conclusions: The available data showing positive relationships
between wine ethanol intake and serum concentrations of both
ferritin and iron in patients with CHD tend to disprove the
hypothesis that wine ethanol consumption could decrease iron
stores and thereby the risk of CHD. Further studies are
required to investigate the mechanism(s) by which wine
drinking reduces the risk of CHD.

jtanzman~sph.llu.edu (Jay Tanzman) wrote in message
news:<b73f2751.0202041945.5d552cd5~posting.google.com>...
  > mypcos~hotmail.com (Wuzzy) wrote ...
  >
  > "Watchman may be right."
  >
  > Well, I suppose "iron" is bound to be the right answer to
  > some question.
  >

What common household item is frequently used to remove
wrinkles from clothing?

Justin

Wuzzy <mypcos~hotmail.com> wrote:

  > basically vegetarians get more phytates that inhibit
  > non-haeme iron absorption as well as meat-eaters having
  > higher haeme iron.

The meat eater being found with higher iron .. stores .. you
mean?

  > Is haeme iron present in non-red meats?

'Heme' iron is iron which is bound chemically to heme. Heme
is blood. Then anything which has blood in it is heme iron.
Since the heme iron in meat is not regulated by the body in
its' rate of absorption .. then the iron stores slowly but
surely rise ..

Who loves ya. Tom
--
Jesus was a Vegetarian! http://www.nucleus.com/watchman Moses
was a Mystic! http://www.nucleus.com/watchman/light.html

watchman <watchman~nucleus.com> wrote in message
news:<3c5f854b~news.nucleus.com>...
  > Wuzzy <mypcos~hotmail.com> wrote:
  >
     > > basically vegetarians get more phytates that inhibit
     > > non-haeme iron absorption as well as meat-eaters having
     > > higher haeme iron.
  >
  > The meat eater being found with higher iron .. stores ..
  > you mean?
  >
     > > Is haeme iron present in non-red meats?
  >
  > 'Heme' iron is iron which is bound chemically to heme. Heme
  > is blood. Then anything which has blood in it is heme iron.
  > Since the heme iron in meat is not regulated by the body in
  > its' rate of absorption .. then the iron stores slowly but
  > surely rise ..

My sense of lurid fascination is getting the best of me...

There are three seperate absorption mechanisms for iron, one
of which is dedicated to absorbing the heme form which is
found only in animal products, most particularly red meat.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db-
=PubMed&list_uids=10522550&dopt=Abstract

How is the fact that we have evolved a seperate digestive
structure for absorbing something found only in animal
products a proof that we're really meant to be vegetarians?

Justin

Justin Bond <justin_bond~hotmail.com> wrote:
     >>
     >> 'Heme' iron is iron which is bound chemically to heme. Heme
     >> is blood. Then anything which has blood in it is heme iron.
     >> Since the heme iron in meat is not regulated by the body in
     >> its' rate of absorption .. then the iron stores slowly but
     >> surely rise ..

  > My sense of lurid fascination is getting the best of me...

  > There are three seperate absorption mechanisms for iron, one
  > of which is dedicated to absorbing the heme form which is
  > found only in animal products, most particularly red meat.

  > http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&-
  > db=PubMed&list_uids=10522550&dopt=Abstract

  > How is the fact that we have evolved a seperate digestive
  > structure for absorbing something found only in animal
  > products a proof that we're really meant to be vegetarians?

The theory is the body has a 'specialised' absorption process
for heme iron.. to absorb OUR OWN IRON which might be spilled
into the throat and gut through bleeding from the nose and
mouth. The body absorbs and stores a certain amount of iron.
There is an upper limit to the amount of iron the body can
safely store. This upper limit has recently been shown to be
when the transferrin reaches a point of 35% saturation at
which point the transferrin begins to 'leak' its cargo.. iron.
At this point 'free' iron / NTBI-non transferrin bound iron/
NPBI- non protein bound iron .. forms. This free iron forms
what is known as the LIP
- labile iron pool. So this mechanism we believe to have
evolved to absorb heme iron from blood .. has not evolved in
order to absorb blood from outside the body but is to
RECYCLE the iron which has spilled from our own bodies.

The UPPER LIMIT to the safe amount of iron which can be
stored .. is what proves man is a herbivore .. due to the
fact the iron from meat is shown to slowly but surely build
to toxic levels.

Who loves ya. Tom
--
Jesus was a Vegetarian! http://www.nucleus.com/watchman Moses
was a Mystic! http://www.nucleus.com/watchman/light.html

watchman <watchman~nucleus.com> wrote in message

  > The theory is the body has a 'specialised' absorption
  > process for heme iron.. to absorb OUR OWN IRON which might
  > be spilled into the throat and gut through bleeding from the
  > nose and mouth. The body absorbs and stores a certain amount
  > of iron. There is an upper limit to the amount of iron the
  > body can safely store.

I should have myself committed for trying to debate an ethical
vegan. You have spent some time studying iron to make it fit
your view (humans are herbivores). No amount of data will make
you change your mind. But I may learn something from you that
I did not know so I'll engage.

Why do chimps in the wild hunt down, kill and then eat
monkeys? Why do they kill and eat other chimps?

Your theory of why the human gut absorbs heme intact with the
iron still in it is not valid based on the data collected for
other primates and pigs. Pigs are omnivores just like us and
their digestive system is closer to ours than any other animal
other than other primates.

I have gotten into this debate with ethical vegans in the past
and it really pissed them off, but facts are facts, wild
primates are not herbivores. Us modern primates have
apparently lost the instinct to get what we need (according to
some nutrition experts) but the wild primates still have that
instinct. If wild primates ate nothing but plant food, I would
be more inclined to agree with you but the fact of the matter
is that they get their hands on meat or insects whenever the
opportunity presents itself. If the opportunity is not there,
they will kill and eat their own species. Explain that Tom.
Wild primates do not believe in a higher power. They do not
make ethical choices when they decide to eat something.

  > This upper limit has recently been shown to be when the
  > transferrin reaches a point of 35% saturation at which point
  > the transferrin begins to 'leak' its cargo.. iron.

Transferrin saturation determines how much of the iron stored
in the gut and other tissues can safely come out. It's a hell
of a lot more complex than you imagine. Ceruloplasmin (copper)
also has to get involved.

Gut is not supposed to release it's iron unless it's
absolutely safe to do so. Other tissues where iron is stored
do not have this safety mechanism built into them like the
gut does. But all tissues where iron is stored will respond
to the stop iron release signal during an infection (very
place that has it stored holds it until after the infection
is over). Tom, look at the iron levels in human blood when an
infection occurs.

People with a genetic defect have lost this gut control. The
theory is that this gave them a selective advantage when iron
was hard to come by. Now that iron is not hard to come up, it
puts them at risk for iron over load. The human genome project
is supposed to tell us what the genetic defect is and how
prevelant it is. People (huminoids)with this defect would have
been less inclined to kill another huminoids to get the iron
that they needed (so the theory goes). Theories are nice
because you can usually find one to fit your point of view.
But as facts (data) accumulate, you may have to throw a
particular theory out the window. Of course if you want to
hold onto that theory for ethical reasons, you will never
discard it. There may be some people who still think that the
world is flat. If someone came here with this claim you would
have a hard time convincing them otherwise unless you put them
on an airplane or up in the space shutte.

  > The UPPER LIMIT to the safe amount of iron which can be
  > stored .. is what proves man is a herbivore .. due to the
  > fact the iron from meat is shown to slowly but surely build
  > to toxic levels.
  >
  > Who loves ya. Tom

Okay Tom, here is your chance to show me what you have.
What is the UPPER LIMIT for iron in humans? Since this is
a critical part of your claim that humans are herbivores,
you must know the answer to this question because the
answer is the central point to your claim that human
digestion is not designed for handling heme and we should
therefore eat only plants.

I can tell you that the answer is not a transferrin saturation
of 35% or more because transferrin is only invovled in moving
iron, it is not involved in storing iron.

The "over flow" that you like to cite as the toxic level is
not linked to how the gut handles iron, it's more related to
the load coming back to the liver for the destruction of red
blood cells. Even with a vegan level of stored iron, you are
gowing to see "iron overflow" if excessive red blood cell
destruction occurs.

If you know anything about iron you must surely understand
this iron road (reuse of iron coming from red blood cell
destruction).

Lets see what you have stored in your memory banks. The last
time I got into this issue with vegans I decided that the
average storage value for iron in vegans put them at higher
risk for iron deficiency anemia but the average value for iron
stored in omnivores may give too much free iron during the
iron reuse process so I personally am trying to get my serum
ferritin a little lower but I am not going to eat like a
herbivore to do this.

watchman <watchman~nucleus.com> wrote in message
news:<3c5ffd8e~news.nucleus.com>...
  > Justin Bond <justin_bond~hotmail.com> wrote:
     > >>
     > >> 'Heme' iron is iron which is bound chemically to heme.
     > >> Heme is blood. Then anything which has blood in it is
     > >> heme iron. Since the heme iron in meat is not regulated
     > >> by the body in its' rate of absorption .. then the iron
     > >> stores slowly but surely rise ..
  >
     > > My sense of lurid fascination is getting the best of me...
  >
     > > There are three seperate absorption mechanisms for iron,
     > > one of which is dedicated to absorbing the heme form
     > > which is found only in animal products, most particularly
     > > red meat.
  >
     > > http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retriev-
     > > e&db=PubMed&list_uids=10522550&dopt=Abstract
  >
     > > How is the fact that we have evolved a seperate digestive
     > > structure for absorbing something found only in animal
     > > products a proof that we're really meant to be
     > > vegetarians?
  >
  > The theory is the body has a 'specialised' absorption
  > process for heme iron.. to absorb OUR OWN IRON which might
  > be spilled into the throat and gut through bleeding from the
  > nose and mouth.

I knew this was going to be good

You honestly believe that we evolved a specialized digestive
structure just for those times when we get a bloody nose
and/or mouth and swallow our blood?

Justin