Which supplemental amino acids can I take together and still
maintain good absorption? In other words how are each of the
amino acids classified according to their "neutral", "basic",
or "acid" characteristics?

My nutrition book is unclear but seems to say: The entire
small intestine absorbs amino acids, but specific sites
absorb certain amino acids. Amino acid absorption involves
carrier cells along the walls of the small intestines which
take in peptides, and break them down into amino acids. There
are three types of carriers, one for each of the three
classes of aminoes:
+ neutral amino acids
+ basic amino acids
+ acid amino acids Within each class, amino acids compete
for the carriers.

If one amino acid floods the absorptive carriers, another
amino of the same class will travel by the site without having
a chance of being absorbed.

Now. The answer to which amino acids I can take together and
still maintain absorption depends on having a classification
of each amino acid as neutral, basic, or acid.

jimHoppe

"J-Cloud" <hjim35~qwest-noSpamony.com> wrote in message
news:<RUF68.120$VU1.130725~news.uswest.net>...
  > Which supplemental amino acids can I take together and still
  > maintain good absorption? In other words how are each of the
  > amino acids classified according to their "neutral",
  > "basic", or "acid" characteristics?
  >
  > My nutrition book is unclear but seems to say: The entire
  > small intestine absorbs amino acids, but specific sites
  > absorb certain amino acids. Amino acid absorption involves
  > carrier cells along the walls of the small intestines which
  > take in peptides, and break them down into amino acids.
  > There are three types of carriers, one for each of the three
  > classes of aminoes:
  > + neutral amino acids
  > + basic amino acids
  > + acid amino acids Within each class, amino acids compete
  > for the carriers.
  >
  > If one amino acid floods the absorptive carriers, another
  > amino of the same class will travel by the site without
  > having a chance of being absorbed.
  >
  > Now. The answer to which amino acids I can take together and
  > still maintain absorption depends on having a classification
  > of each amino acid as neutral, basic, or acid.
  >
  > jimHoppe

Jim,

Amino acids can be moved by carriers (protein transport
systems) via what is called facilitated trnasport. Yes, there
are several different carriers, each specific for certain
amino acids.

They can also be moved using the gamma-glutamyl cycle, moves
everything except proline.

They can also be moved using sodium driven transport.
This happens in the gut, kidneys and in muscle responding
to insulin.

The bottom line is that if an amino acid is free in the gut
lumen, it will be absorbed even if other amino acids are
present that could compete with it for absorption. Amino acids
from supplements are never going to get in the way of each
other. In additon, if a free amino acid is present in the
stomach, it will be absorbed there. Even with intact protein
coming in, eat a hanburger, 10% of the amino acids that will
get absorbed from that meal will be absorbed in the stomach.

On 2 Feb 2002 14:20:47 -0800, mbansch314~aol.com (Martin
Banschbach) wrote:

  >The bottom line is that if an amino acid is free in the gut
  >lumen, it will be absorbed even if other amino acids are
  >present that could compete with it for absorption. Amino
  >acids from supplements are never going to get in the way of
  >each other. In additon, if a free amino acid is present in
  >the stomach, it will be absorbed there. Even with intact
  >protein coming in, eat a hanburger, 10% of the amino acids
  >that will get absorbed from that meal will be absorbed in
  >the stomach.

But some non-essential amino acids do make trouble for
synthesis of other amino acids in liver where some of the
pathways are shared. Feeding only partially of these may
decrease the synthesis of the rest. Most dangerous us pathways
where there are two amino acids as end products and you take
one of these. Since both are negative feedback inhibitors of
some steps of the pathway, unbalanced intake of one of them
stop more or less the biosynthesis of the other one.

In plants this is easily seen if you grow eg- wheat embryos in
a nutrition gel added one of two amino acids synthesized the
same pathway, or by two of three amino acids. Feeding all
needed gives no growth inhibition, while adding only partial
gives a strong growth inhibition.

alf.christophersen~basalmed.uio.no (Alf Christophersen) wrote
in message
  >
  > But some non-essential amino acids do make trouble for
  > synthesis of other amino acids in liver where some of the
  > pathways are shared. Feeding only partially of these may
  > decrease the synthesis of the rest. Most dangerous us
  > pathways where there are two amino acids as end products and
  > you take one of these. Since both are negative feedback
  > inhibitors of some steps of the pathway, unbalanced intake
  > of one of them stop more or less the biosynthesis of the
  > other one.
  >
  > In plants this is easily seen if you grow eg- wheat embryos
  > in a nutrition gel added one of two amino acids synthesized
  > the same pathway, or by two of three amino acids. Feeding
  > all needed gives no growth inhibition, while adding only
  > partial gives a strong growth inhibition.

True Alf. The selective increase in the blood level of one
amino acid over another is more likely to come from how the
liver handles amino acids rather than how the gut absorbs
amino acids.

My personal view on this area of free form amino acid
supplementation to try to improve human performance is that
you first have to understand how the human body as a whole
handles amino acids. If you do not understand it, effects may
be seen that are not desirable. These bad effects are not
going to be due to problems at the absorption end, they will
more likely come from liver processing capabilities.

Branched chain amino acids can be used as both a muscle and
brain fuel. The essential amino acids should not cause a
problem with liver handling if the intake is matched to
liver meatabolic capability and human need for each
essential amino acid.

The only other thing needed is a source of nitrogen and a
source of a good alpha-ketoacid acceptor for transamination
reactions.

Both pyruvate and alpha-ketoglutrerate show promise as
alpha-ketoacid nitrogen acceptors and both can be cleanly
burned if not needed. Pyruvate seems to hold an edge over
alpha-ketogluterate in human performance studies.

Alanine is a good nonspecific source of nitrogen to allow the
liver to do it's job of processing amino acids(provide a
source of nitrogen for holding onto the carbon skeleton of
some of the amino acids that the liver processes).

There is tremendous potential for improving human athletic
performace if the right mix of free form amino acids and
ketoacids is used. I don't think that they have the mix
right yet.

Could I design the right mix? Not likely in this lifetime.

On 3 Feb 2002 09:44:17 -0800, mbansch314~aol.com (Martin
Banschbach) wrote:

  >Could I design the right mix? Not likely in this lifetime.

That's why they have banned free sale of amino acids up here
north. And the tryptophane impurity accelerated the ban.

On the other side, don't do anything that increase syntesis of
beta-alanine. It is a strong taurine transport inhibitor and
may increase strongly a taurine deficiency increasing rate of
cataract formation and other diseases recently connected to
relative and absolute taurine deficiency.. Last autumn it was
shown that taurine directly prevent artificial insuline
induction by experimental artificial induction(streptotocine
induction) by preventing mitochondria and RER deformation. So
maybe the observed taurine deficiency in connection with
diabetes is not caused by diabetes, but maybe diabetes caused
by dietary taurine deficiency combined with instances where
taurine is needed as protector where it lacks completely (like
bicycling without a hand brake and when you once in your
lifetime really needed the handbrake, it is not there and you
are killed because you also maybe lacked something covering
your head. Most harm done because taurine is not functional
may be also irreversible harms, while not deadly.

alf.christophersen~basalmed.uio.no (Alf Christophersen) wrote
in message

  > On the other side, don't do anything that increase syntesis
  > of beta-alanine. It is a strong taurine transport inhibitor
  > and may increase strongly a taurine deficiency increasing
  > rate of cataract formation and other diseases recently
  > connected to relative and absolute taurine deficiency.

Alf,

I have to ask for your help here. You mentioned water-soluble
factors that would not move with fish oil when fish are
processed to produce fish oil supplements in another post.

I was tempted to ask you about it but passed. Now I'll get
both out of my system. I've heard of beta-alanine but I have
no idea how it is formed. I also did not know that
beta-alanine could affect taurine status.

I think it's my damn German pride. Alf knows something that I
don't. I'm pure German on both sides of my family and my
Mother's line goes all the way back to Bach. I've found it a
little easier to admitt that I'm wrong once in awhile but I
still find it hard to ask for help.

Can you help me out here?

Thanks, I really do appreciate your willingness to share
what you know.

On 5 Feb 2002 12:58:37 -0800, mbansch314~aol.com (Martin
Banschbach) wrote:

  >I have to ask for your help here. You mentioned water-soluble
  >factors that would not move with fish oil when fish are
  >processed to produce fish oil supplements in another post.

Taurine, betaine, arsenobetaine, myo-inositol is just a
few of them.

  >
  >I was tempted to ask you about it but passed. Now I'll get
  >both out of my system. I've heard of beta-alanine but I have
  >no idea how it is formed. I also did not know that
  >beta-alanine could affect taurine status.

Beta-alanine is the decarboxylation product of glutamate. It
is like taurine 8decarboxylation product of cysteic acid made
from cysteine) a neuro inhibitor, while glutamate and cysteic
acid are very potent excitors, often being excitotoxic. But,
as mentioned, beta-alanine is also a taurine transport
inhibitor.

Maybe glutamate decarboxylation to beta-alanine and thus
inhibiting taurine transport is part of the toxic pathology of
glutamate intoxication?? (That is, not only the excitotoxic
effect alone??)

Short response: Which aminoes have which absorption
facilitator affinities?

Long response: I asked for amino-acid classifications into
acid/basic/neutral. Your answers make me happy because saying
not to worry about absorption (all amino-acids get absorbed),
but to direct the concern towards the liver.

The *amount* and *function* of an amino are indicated by
scientific research. What I lack is the absorption *timing*
information. With total disregard to timing, the liver may be
taxed with less benefit.

With this info please allow me to re-rephrase my question.
Given that the liver was capable, and the bodily effects
desirable, Which group of amino acids can I take together to
ensure rapid absorption along with the supplemented, targeted
cofactors. Which aminoes have which absorption facilitator
affinities?

I aim at *timing* the absorption of specific amounts of a
specific aminoes along with their specific co-factors to
coincide with sleeping, eating, exercising and co-factor
supplementation regimine. (Co-factors being the additional
chemical assistance for and besides the aminoes to achieve the
desired end-result.) The need for timing, thus absorption
timing should be apparent.

IMHO if one experiments with a mix, then the choice of
combinations start with absorption interactions (i.e. timing)
and continue with liver metabalism, and end with the
specifically targeted end-result. Each step eliminates
possibilities. Only the "absorption timing" or "facilitator
affinity" information is missing, and it is primary.

The ideal mix would then have one amino for each of the
absorption mechanisms -- one acid, one neutral, one base, one
gamma-glutamyl driven, one sodium driven -- because of the
unique affinity each amino acid has for each of the absorption
mechanisms. It would be safe for the liver and effectively
produce the desired end-result.

For example: The nerve, muscle, and cirulatory damage in my
broken face may benifit from Arginine Carnitine Carnitine,
Carnosine Carnosine, Cysteine, Glutamine Glutimate, Inosine
Lysine OKG Ornithine, Taurine

These may help heal the eye, bones, and subcutaneous
membranes that the surgeon and the face-clubbing thug helped
to bring about.

jimHoppe - Seattle

"Martin Banschbach" <mbansch314~aol.com> wrote in message
news:cba7fed1.0202030944.fd8c97e~posting.google.com...
  > alf.christophersen~basalmed.uio.no (Alf Christophersen)
  > wrote in message
     > >
     > > But some non-essential amino acids do make trouble for
     > > synthesis of other amino acids in liver where some of the
     > > pathways are shared. Feeding only partially of these may
     > > decrease the synthesis of the rest. Most dangerous us
     > > pathways where there are two amino acids as end products
     > > and you take one of these. Since both are negative
     > > feedback inhibitors of some steps of the pathway,
     > > unbalanced intake of one of them stop more or less the
     > > biosynthesis of the other one.
     > >
     > > In plants this is easily seen if you grow eg- wheat
     > > embryos in a nutrition gel added one of two amino acids
     > > synthesized the same pathway, or by two of three amino
     > > acids. Feeding all needed gives no growth inhibition,
     > > while adding only partial gives a strong growth
     > > inhibition.
  >
  >
  > True Alf. The selective increase in the blood level of one
  > amino acid over another is more likely to come from how the
  > liver handles amino acids rather than how the gut absorbs
  > amino acids.
  >
  > My personal view on this area of free form amino acid
  > supplementation to try to improve human performance is that
  > you first have to understand how the human body as a whole
  > handles amino acids. If you do not understand it, effects
  > may be seen that are not desirable. These bad effects are
  > not going to be due to problems at the absorption end, they
  > will more likely come from liver processing capabilities.
  >
  > Branched chain amino acids can be used as both a muscle and
  > brain fuel. The essential amino acids should not cause a
  > problem with liver handling if the intake is matched to
  > liver meatabolic capability and human need for each
  > essential amino acid.
  >
  > The only other thing needed is a source of nitrogen and a
  > source of a good alpha-ketoacid acceptor for transamination
  > reactions.
  >
  > Both pyruvate and alpha-ketoglutrerate show promise as
  > alpha-ketoacid nitrogen acceptors and both can be cleanly
  > burned if not needed. Pyruvate seems to hold an edge over
  > alpha-ketogluterate in human performance studies.
  >
  > Alanine is a good nonspecific source of nitrogen to allow
  > the liver to do it's job of processing amino acids(provide a
  > source of nitrogen for holding onto the carbon skeleton of
  > some of the amino acids that the liver processes).
  >
  > There is tremendous potential for improving human athletic
  > performace if the right mix of free form amino acids and
  > ketoacids is used. I don't think that they have the mix
  > right yet.
  >
  > Could I design the right mix? Not likely in this lifetime.

  > Maybe glutamate decarboxylation to beta-alanine and thus
  > inhibiting taurine transport is part of the toxic pathology
  > of glutamate intoxication?? (That is, not only the
  > excitotoxic effect alone??)

That's certainly possible. It may also explain why the gut is
supposed to take out almost all of the dietary glutamate but
if you have glutamate in the stomach you can by-pass this
protection system.

--
Marty B. "You are what you eat."
http://centernet.okstate.edu/nutrition/index.html

On Wed, 6 Feb 2002 14:38:36 -0600, "Martin Banschbach PhD"
<mbansch~osu-com.okstate.edu> wrote:

  >That's certainly possible. It may also explain why the gut is
  >supposed to take out almost all of the dietary glutamate but
  >if you have glutamate in the stomach you can by-pass this
  >protection system.

One shall not forget that alfa-ketoglutarate plus aminegroups
like glutamine etc. also generate glutamate (or vice-versa)
That glutamate may also be decarboxylated.

I do not find much literature in my biochemical textbooks
about the decarboxylation and why it occurs and if it is
somehow regulated.